DUST Search - PANIC! 1.7 Forge Gun Stats Released!!

Absoliav wrote:

Foundation Seldon wrote:

I'm glad that you mentioned snipers as it illustrates my point pretty succinctly.

It takes a considerable amount of skill for a sniper to 1 shot a proto with anything short of a headshot (or multiple given the HP values I see running around). There's multiple avenues of cover that an infantry person can take compared to a Dropship that's in the air. Having shot at me I can see a weapon trail that leads directly back to you, the sniper, and can choose whether or not your worth my time to try to pursue. If I choose to engage you and can navigate and avoid your shots well enough then I'm rewarded with having put you out of your effective range, getting close to you weakens you and strengthens me.

None of this happens with a Dropship vs. Forge. I get close to you (assuming I saw where you shot from to begin with) and you're in no way less powerful or potent, if anything you're MORE powerful because I've lended you a larger target to shoot at, your damage hasn't fallen off and its no more difficult for you to take me out at 30m as it was at 300m.

JudgeRhadamanthus goes over this point further in his dropship video series, if you're interested in seeing the other side's point of view then I'd suggest subscribing and checking out his videos. All credits to him for the original source of the argument I've (tried) to present.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w-sVXgJKSQ

The problem with your argument is that rendering issues with vehicles isn't tied to the FG's performance, it's a problem with the how the game operates, you are saying that the because the game has rendering issues, FGs should be weakened to accommodate vehicle rendering issues, you are ignoring an issue in favor of your opinion, ignoring the issue of veiw rendering doesn't make it go way.

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Foundation Seldon Gespenster Kompanie Villore Accords 270	Posted - 2013.12.05 05:42:00 - [61] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Foundation Seldon wrote: ... and they're pretty reasonable! CCP Logibro wrote: Forge Gun numbers! Assault STD GÇô N/A ADV - 1525 -> 1375 \| 2.5 -> 3.0 PRO - 1663 -> 1500 \| 2.5 -> 3.0 This part is not reasonable. for EVERY OTHER "assault" varient, ROF goes up, while damage goes DOWN. But for forge, ROF goes up, AND damage goes UP, compared to regular?!! Okay, they lowered it from what it was before.. but it's Still Wrong! It has to be lower than the regular forge damage. I don't disagree with you and it's something I've brought up myself on multiple occasions. At the very least now the difference between Assault Forge damage and Regular Forge damage of the same tier is negligible, Assault Forges are only getting about 60-65 more damage per shot. 1.7 LAVs - Thoughts and Discussion
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 718	Posted - 2013.12.05 05:52:00 - [62] - Quote Roger Cordill wrote: Message from Godin: I'm throwing a party for this. There's going to be hell to pay for those FGers on the 10th typical cry til some one get's nerfed then brag.
KenKaniff69 Fatal Absolution 959	Posted - 2013.12.05 05:58:00 - [63] - Quote Foundation Seldon wrote: Quil Evrything wrote: Foundation Seldon wrote: ... and they're pretty reasonable! CCP Logibro wrote: Forge Gun numbers! Assault STD GÇô N/A ADV - 1525 -> 1375 \| 2.5 -> 3.0 PRO - 1663 -> 1500 \| 2.5 -> 3.0 This part is not reasonable. for EVERY OTHER "assault" varient, ROF goes up, while damage goes DOWN. But for forge, ROF goes up, AND damage goes UP, compared to regular?!! Okay, they lowered it from what it was before.. but it's Still Wrong! It has to be lower than the regular forge damage. I don't disagree with you and it's something I've brought up myself on multiple occasions. At the very least now the difference between Assault Forge damage and Regular Forge damage of the same tier is negligible, Assault Forges are only getting about 60-65 more damage per shot. I agree that the assault should deal slightly less damage in exchange for a higher ROF. Also the whole idea of not being able to hold the charge really doesn't play out as planned since you can just cancel it right at the end. Why not just make it so the shot has to be fired? So about those vehicle locks...
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 720	Posted - 2013.12.05 06:26:00 - [64] - Quote KenKaniff69 wrote: Foundation Seldon wrote: Quil Evrything wrote: Foundation Seldon wrote: ... and they're pretty reasonable! CCP Logibro wrote: Forge Gun numbers! Assault STD GÇô N/A ADV - 1525 -> 1375 \| 2.5 -> 3.0 PRO - 1663 -> 1500 \| 2.5 -> 3.0 This part is not reasonable. for EVERY OTHER "assault" varient, ROF goes up, while damage goes DOWN. But for forge, ROF goes up, AND damage goes UP, compared to regular?!! Okay, they lowered it from what it was before.. but it's Still Wrong! It has to be lower than the regular forge damage. I don't disagree with you and it's something I've brought up myself on multiple occasions. At the very least now the difference between Assault Forge damage and Regular Forge damage of the same tier is negligible, Assault Forges are only getting about 60-65 more damage per shot. I agree that the assault should deal slightly less damage in exchange for a higher ROF. Also the whole idea of not being able to hold the charge really doesn't play out as planned since you can just cancel it right at the end. Why not just make it so the shot has to be fired? I have lost alot of respect for tankers. Ur all gonna be so tough when CCP does your fightin for you. I got news your still gonna have to chose red line or explode. I'm gonna finish off my proficiencies for forge guns.
Kasote Denzara A Vulture 1142	Posted - 2013.12.05 06:29:00 - [65] - Quote Forge Gun was reasonable to begin with. I'm glad the Assaults were toned down though. Annoying *******. The Breach damage reductions are a bit too high, though all these numbers are still usable and rather reasonable. Just to prove this, I will proto breach every single vehicle I see. Let them feel the wrath of a weapon preforming as it should! SWEET MOTHER OF TERESA ON THE HOOD OF A MERCEDES BENZ, YOU SOUND LIKE A MAJESTIC EAGLE! DO YOU SING?!
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 1925	Posted - 2013.12.05 07:06:00 - [66] - Quote You seem to forget that forgegun operation still decreases the charge up time by 5% per lvl. So in reality proto assault forgeguns still charge up in 2.25 secs. Not 3 secs like the devpost stated. damage has only beeing slighty reduced but not by too much so you still can 1 shot every suit in the game with a direct hit. I shall show you a world, a world which you cant imagine, a world full off butthurt n00bs at the other end of my gun
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 506	Posted - 2013.12.05 07:49:00 - [67] - Quote Absoliav wrote: Foundation Seldon wrote: I'm glad that you mentioned snipers as it illustrates my point pretty succinctly. It takes a considerable amount of skill for a sniper to 1 shot a proto with anything short of a headshot (or multiple given the HP values I see running around). There's multiple avenues of cover that an infantry person can take compared to a Dropship that's in the air. Having shot at me I can see a weapon trail that leads directly back to you, the sniper, and can choose whether or not your worth my time to try to pursue. If I choose to engage you and can navigate and avoid your shots well enough then I'm rewarded with having put you out of your effective range, getting close to you weakens you and strengthens me. None of this happens with a Dropship vs. Forge. I get close to you (assuming I saw where you shot from to begin with) and you're in no way less powerful or potent, if anything you're MORE powerful because I've lended you a larger target to shoot at, your damage hasn't fallen off and its no more difficult for you to take me out at 30m as it was at 300m. JudgeRhadamanthus goes over this point further in his dropship video series, if you're interested in seeing the other side's point of view then I'd suggest subscribing and checking out his videos. All credits to him for the original source of the argument I've (tried) to present. www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w-sVXgJKSQ The problem with your argument is that rendering issues with vehicles isn't tied to the FG's performance, it's a problem with the how the game operates, you are saying that the because the game has rendering issues, FGs should be weakened to accommodate vehicle rendering issues, you are ignoring an issue in favor of your opinion, ignoring the issue of veiw rendering doesn't make it go way. Problem = fix dificulty = FG fix < rendering fix If "IF" and when rendering EVER gets fixed then the FG can be easily rebalanced. Sounds to me like you're just trying to defend your unfair advantage here The distances with which the FG can be effective is also an issue here. At the extreme end of the opporation range of the FG the FG opporater is EXTREMELY dificult to locate, not to mention target, due to size/distance. Some kind of lingering tracer needs to be added to the FG round as it travels at the very least. As well the light emitted from the forge should be far more easily identified at extreme ranges. {:)}{3GÇó>
Rusty Shallows 553	Posted - 2013.12.05 08:17:00 - [68] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: Roger Cordill wrote: Message from Godin: I'm throwing a party for this. There's going to be hell to pay for those FGers on the 10th typical cry til some one get's nerfed then brag. They played a good Forum Metagame and earned that win. It's the game developers fault for not wising up. "She may not be Miss Right but she'll do right now." SR-71 310k+ SP for +0.05m/s (>2in) on a Heavy. Totally worth it.
Snagman 313 Carbon 7 CRONOS. 175	Posted - 2013.12.05 08:18:00 - [69] - Quote Well they only broke out the 8lb Nerfhammer instead of the 24lb one they usually break out when dealing with the heavy. I wonder what heavy weapon they'll nerf next....... Oh wait thats they lot!!! Nae worries lads in 6 months when the rest of the Adv and Proto HAVs get released we'll get a small buff. On a more serious note the nerf ain't too bad any dedicated FG operator has the skills and fittings to deal with this. I do feel bad for any Light weapon AV specialists as they will need to spec into the heavy to be really competitive (Wait what did I just say). Closed Beta AV veteran I drink because I play Dust
preddytar Science For Death 1	Posted - 2013.12.05 08:27:00 - [70] - Quote Did you know that a wirykomi 'BFG' with prof 4 and 2 complex damage mods can insta-pop installations? Nerfing it to balance it vs vehicles is fine, idk. However I get a warm and fuzzy feeling with every redberry that dies as a result of having the nerve to kill me in an installation. Killing manned installations just won't be the same

Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 770	Posted - 2013.12.05 08:57:00 - [71] - Quote Isn't it odd that the breach is the weakest FG when Caldari weapons are supposed to have the best breach capabilities, and the assault is the best which is supposed to be where the Gallente shines.....? Hope this doesn't translate over to the RR..... Fix TTK!!! MATARI PRIDE!!! Tears For Our Dearly Departed ReGnYuM. May He One Day Return To Shoot Us All In The Face...
TERMINALANCE Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 226	Posted - 2013.12.05 09:29:00 - [72] - Quote They fcked over the breach fg hard. so dumb
Epicsting pro FACTION WARFARE ARMY 313	Posted - 2013.12.05 10:01:00 - [73] - Quote I love my plasma cannon. For the mother land.
Evan Gotabor Prima Gallicus 4	Posted - 2013.12.05 10:38:00 - [74] - Quote You are serious ? It is ALL that the forge gun is reduce by ? The swarm launchers lost more than half their range and the FG just lost some damages (the swarm lost it too by the way, but it was normal). CCP, I love Dust, but seriously, why do you want the swarm to fight in "packs" while you let the FG destroy everything (even neutral turrets) alone on the top of his tower ? I would have agree if the swarm had the same lock-on range than the forge gun (300m), even 250M ; but now a forge gun got TWICE our range. They don't even have to expose to destroy tanks and dropship. And about the damages reduction I will give you one guess : 220 x 6 = 1320 points of damage per wave of rockets for a PROTO swarm (if all the rockets reach their target) 1200 points of damage per blast for a STANDARD Forge gun Think about it.
Kasote Denzara A Vulture 1147	Posted - 2013.12.05 10:47:00 - [75] - Quote Evan Gotabor wrote: You are serious ? It is ALL that the forge gun is reduce by ? The swarm launchers lost more than half their range and the FG just lost some damages (the swarm lost it too by the way, but it was normal). CCP, I love Dust, but seriously, why do you want the swarm to fight in "packs" while you let the FG destroy everything (even neutral turrets) alone on the top of his tower ? I would have agree if the swarm had the same lock-on range than the forge gun (300m), even 250M ; but now a forge gun got TWICE our range. They don't even have to expose to destroy tanks and dropship. And about the damages reduction I will give you one guess : 220 x 6 = 1320 points of damage per wave of rockets for a PROTO swarm (if all the rockets reach their target) 1200 points of damage per blast for a STANDARD Forge gun Think about it. One is carried by any suit, one is restricted to a certain suit type. One costs 53 CPU, 12 PG, the other costs 23 CPU, 3 PG. One locks, fires, then changes trajectory upon reaching the location of the last lock. The other doesn't even aim, you fire and pray that your target doesn't change direction or position otherwise it'll miss. One is a motherfuckin' anti-material cannon that is actually a modified mining tool, the other is an anti-material rocket launcher. Think about it. SWEET MOTHER OF TERESA ON THE HOOD OF A MERCEDES BENZ, YOU SOUND LIKE A MAJESTIC EAGLE! DO YOU SING?!
Absoliav Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 93	Posted - 2013.12.05 15:39:00 - [76] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Problem = fix dificulty = FG fix < rendering fix If "IF" and when rendering EVER gets fixed then the FG can be easily rebalanced. Sounds to me like you're just trying to defend your unfair advantage here The distances with which the FG can be effective is also an issue here. At the extreme end of the opporation range of the FG the FG opporater is EXTREMELY dificult to locate, not to mention target, due to size/distance. Some kind of lingering tracer needs to be added to the FG round as it travels at the very least. As well the light emitted from the forge should be far more easily identified at extreme ranges. I'm not defending an unfair advantage, the FG is working as it's intended, it's vehicles that are having an issue while the FG is getting the blame for it, rendering will not be fixed by simply ignoring it. Your solution to the FG is a far more reasonable solution than what most would want, and a better answer than just nerfing it, if CCP made it easier to identify the location or direction of an FG shot it would make a lot of the rendering issues less taxing on Pilots. Again, I'm not argue if this change to the FG wasn't unreasonable, I'm saying that it's unbalanced, why is the Assault still the most powerful FG, why is it still going to wipe infantry and vehicles, while only suffering one minor inconvenience? It's too good of a gun, the Breach isn't even considered for AV most of the time cause of how comparatively inferior it is to the AFG.
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1213	Posted - 2013.12.05 17:09:00 - [77] - Quote Crimson Cerberes wrote: Ok lets math it out. .... This is purely IAFG numbers here. EDIT: Of course all of the damage and time reduction could be factored out so we could have done it with base stats I guess. Bonus: Breach FG 2100/2772 ~~ 75% Normal FG is actually closer to a 20% nerf. I stand corrected, sir. Your math shows that the nerf isn't even as bad as what I said, though. I think we can agree it isn't the "nerf sledgehammer" you originally stated? ED: Reworded to reduce dickishness. ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 200/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 268	Posted - 2013.12.05 17:21:00 - [78] - Quote Still needs a random trajectory deviation to make sniping infantry a little harder.
Absoliav Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 93	Posted - 2013.12.05 17:47:00 - [79] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Still needs a random trajectory deviation to make sniping infantry a little harder. That's not a bad idea, it is a pretty big gun, I think if they increased the amount of sway the gun produces while charging it would help balance it out and help with the problem of it being able to do more damage than a HAV railgun.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 1843	Posted - 2013.12.05 17:59:00 - [80] - Quote I have proto FG Im happy with the changes TBH when the vehicle changes came about and the FG wasnt changed yet the SL was i was a bit worried but not that much since swarms were the biggest threat FG have now been changed due to vehicle changes, it doesnt seem that bad, you can still annoy ppl in pubs with tower camping Its still a decent AV weapon, still has the power needed and the range

DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 8376	Posted - 2013.12.05 18:01:00 - [81] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Still needs a random trajectory deviation to make sniping infantry a little harder. I've thought something along those lines too, but it would need to stabilize if you kept it aimed at a vehicle, otherwise it would be too unreliable at its main job: traumatizing vehicle users. Not sure how programming something like that would go :/ Win ISK / Vids / O7
AP Grasshopper The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 54	Posted - 2013.12.05 18:04:00 - [82] - Quote Rebalance assault forge gun to how it should function in comparison to standard and breach variants. Add fall off damage to prevent one sole forge gunner on a roof locking down the entire map of vehicles while also holding an objective. The damage is fine, the standard forge gun is fine, the breach is a little underwhelming compared to the assault variant.
AP Grasshopper The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 54	Posted - 2013.12.05 18:06:00 - [83] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Still needs a random trajectory deviation to make sniping infantry a little harder. I've thought something along those lines too, but it would need to stabilize if you kept it aimed at a vehicle, otherwise it would be too unreliable at its main job: traumatizing vehicle users. Not sure how programming something like that would go :/ vehicle aim assist? Although im against adding dispersion of some sort to the forge gun. It'd be nice to add some sort of aiming similar to the HMG
WAR-MONGER SLAUGHTER Unkn0wn Killers Renegade Alliance 25	Posted - 2013.12.05 18:12:00 - [84] - Quote . *WAR-MONGER SLAUGHTER ... THE GOD HEAVY*
WAR-MONGER SLAUGHTER Unkn0wn Killers Renegade Alliance 25	Posted - 2013.12.05 18:14:00 - [85] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Still needs a random trajectory deviation to make sniping infantry a little harder. I've thought something along those lines too, but it would need to stabilize if you kept it aimed at a vehicle, otherwise it would be too unreliable at its main job: traumatizing vehicle users. Not sure how programming something like that would go :/ stop getting raped by your father *WAR-MONGER SLAUGHTER ... THE GOD HEAVY*
Gelan Corbaine Gladiators Vanguard 228	Posted - 2013.12.05 18:24:00 - [86] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: I approve so hard. But honestly, what they needed was a range nerf, not so much damage. (I'm thinking around 200m or so) Dear God No .... They tried that during the second part of the E3 build ...... and we were ******* useless. Everybody laughed at us during that time . No job is worth doing if you don't get paid in the end .
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 451	Posted - 2013.12.05 18:53:00 - [87] - Quote Absoliav wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Still needs a random trajectory deviation to make sniping infantry a little harder. That's not a bad idea, it is a pretty big gun, I think if they increased the amount of sway the gun produces while charging it would help balance it out and help with the problem of it being able to do more damage than a HAV railgun. Dont think it would help. Seems like its a "scanhit" weapon, so the sway is cosmetic only? When I try to use it to kill infantry and get a direct hit, i get the 50 WP credit, before the animation of the big blue shiney finishes travelling to the target.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 2434	Posted - 2013.12.05 18:56:00 - [88] - Quote Great. Give FGers even more incentive to pop infantry with them. No.
Absoliav Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 93	Posted - 2013.12.06 07:31:00 - [89] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Absoliav wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Still needs a random trajectory deviation to make sniping infantry a little harder. That's not a bad idea, it is a pretty big gun, I think if they increased the amount of sway the gun produces while charging it would help balance it out and help with the problem of it being able to do more damage than a HAV railgun. Dont think it would help. Seems like its a "scanhit" weapon, so the sway is cosmetic only? When I try to use it to kill infantry and get a direct hit, i get the 50 WP credit, before the animation of the big blue shiney finishes travelling to the target. You misunderstood me, I mean the FG should have a charge sway, as the FG builds a charge, it would begin to shake/sway more, making it more difficult to hit smaller/distant targets and would require more timing of shots.
Ivy Zalinto Bobbit's Hangmen 102	Posted - 2013.12.06 07:35:00 - [90] - Quote just glad the av grenades took a hit. those things were ridiculous as they were. If you look at the damage they hit as hard if not harder than a plasma cannon impact each, with no reload time. Dedicated scout. Player bodyguard Pistol supremacy.



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