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Foundation Seldon
Gespenster Kompanie
Villore Accords
253
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Posted - 2013.12.05 01:27:00 -
[1] - Quote
... and they're pretty reasonable!
CCP Logibro wrote:Forge Gun numbers!
Damage | Charge time
Base
STD - 1320 -> 1200 | 3.5 -> 4.0
ADV - 1452 -> 1320 | 3.5 -> 4.0
PRO - 1584 -> 1440 | 3.5 -> 4.0
Assault
STD GÇô N/A
ADV - 1525 -> 1375 | 2.5 -> 3.0
PRO - 1663 -> 1500 | 2.5 -> 3.0
Breach
STD - 2310 -> 1750 | 6.0 -> 6.0
ADV - 2541 -> 1925 | 6.0 -> 6.0
PRO - 2772 -> 2100 | 6.0 -> 6.0
Officer - 1584 -> 1440 | 2.1 -> 2.4
1.7 LAVs - Thoughts and Discussion
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Foundation Seldon
Gespenster Kompanie
Villore Accords
259
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Posted - 2013.12.05 01:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:I approve so hard.
But honestly, what they needed was a range nerf, not so much damage. (I'm thinking around 200m or so)
In all honesty I was expecting something like this as well, something like maybe an effective range of 200m where hitting at their optimal of 300 would mean you'd be hitting with a fraction of the damage you would otherwise.
The 10% damage nerf does take a bit of an edge off of them though and they'll still be effective anti-infantry.
1.7 LAVs - Thoughts and Discussion
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Foundation Seldon
Gespenster Kompanie
Villore Accords
263
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Posted - 2013.12.05 02:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
Justin Tymes wrote:Which is why I don't understand the Breach nerf. Assault Forge can tag fleeing vehicles and Infantry, still OHKOs Infantry, and 2 shots from an Assault Forge > 1 shot from a Breach Forge.
Of course it's not the only useless Breach weapon in the game, most need a serious look.
The Breach nerf probably had to do with Dropships more than anything else. Their effective HP without modules on is MUCH lower than it is now and if Forge numbers had stayed the same then they would have been in a pretty precarious position.
1.7 LAVs - Thoughts and Discussion
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Foundation Seldon
Gespenster Kompanie
Villore Accords
265
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Posted - 2013.12.05 02:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
Justin Tymes wrote:Foundation Seldon wrote:Justin Tymes wrote:Which is why I don't understand the Breach nerf. Assault Forge can tag fleeing vehicles and Infantry, still OHKOs Infantry, and 2 shots from an Assault Forge > 1 shot from a Breach Forge.
Of course it's not the only useless Breach weapon in the game, most need a serious look. The Breach nerf probably had to do with Dropships more than anything else. Their effective HP without modules on is MUCH lower than it is now and if Forge numbers had stayed the same then they would have been in a pretty precarious position. I honestly think that's where the Breach needs to be. No splash damage, immovable while Charging, maybe increase the charge time, but make it able to 1 shot all but the bulkiest of vehicles without anything activated. This would give it purpose.
If you have a weapon capable of 1 shotting a fitted dropship from anywhere in a 300m radius that's costing the user between 700-900k then you set yourself up for a situation that we have now where they're simply no where near worth the price to bring them out on the battlefield. Their current numbers are already 10% higher than the most powerful Large Rail gun you can fit on a Tank so I really can't sympathize with that point of view.
1.7 LAVs - Thoughts and Discussion
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Foundation Seldon
Gespenster Kompanie
Villore Accords
265
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 03:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Justin Tymes wrote:Foundation Seldon wrote:Justin Tymes wrote:Foundation Seldon wrote:Justin Tymes wrote:Which is why I don't understand the Breach nerf. Assault Forge can tag fleeing vehicles and Infantry, still OHKOs Infantry, and 2 shots from an Assault Forge > 1 shot from a Breach Forge.
Of course it's not the only useless Breach weapon in the game, most need a serious look. The Breach nerf probably had to do with Dropships more than anything else. Their effective HP without modules on is MUCH lower than it is now and if Forge numbers had stayed the same then they would have been in a pretty precarious position. I honestly think that's where the Breach needs to be. No splash damage, immovable while Charging, maybe increase the charge time, but make it able to 1 shot all but the bulkiest of vehicles without anything activated. This would give it purpose. If you have a weapon capable of 1 shotting a fitted dropship from anywhere in a 300m radius that's costing the user between 700-900k then you set yourself up for a situation that we have now where they're simply no where near worth the price to bring them out on the battlefield. Their current numbers are already 10% higher than the most powerful Large Rail gun you can fit on a Tank so I really can't sympathize with that point of view. Then that's a ISK cost issue which should be irrelevant to gameplay. Being afraid to bring stuff out unless things are nerfed to the point where you have a near guaranteed chance of survival isn't how Dust should be played.
It's one issue but certainly not the only one, I'd still argue that, thanks to their range not having changed, the Forge is still in a position where its got a HUGE advantage over anything flying in the air. With Swarms I at least have some sort of warning in which I can hear their approach and respond to their general direction upon being hit. Forges don't leave me that opportunity unless I already have line of sight on their position and am within renderable range of my target. The hit indicator is often misleading and turning on to respond to any one threat or another often doesn't gleam me any relevant information about where your shot may have come from. My only real option, as a pilot, is to run and hope that the hit indicators on my Dropship haven't glitched to the point where I'm running into another shot.
There's no sort of compelling or satisfying gameplay there, no back and forth between AV and Vehicle in which I can choose to gauge the threat of my target and decide whether or not to attack or flee; it's find a supply depot, find a nook or cranny, charge up and destroy.
You're a tiny glowing dot that may or may not render at any given time that could be literally anywhere on the map without me having a single clue that you've even spawned and you've destroyed me without me having any clue how or where I could have responded differently. Is that the sort of gameplay you want?
1.7 LAVs - Thoughts and Discussion
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Foundation Seldon
Gespenster Kompanie
Villore Accords
268
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 03:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
Justin Tymes wrote:Foundation Seldon wrote:It's one issue but certainly not the only one, I'd still argue that, thanks to their range not having changed, the Forge is still in a position where its got a HUGE advantage over anything flying in the air. With Swarms I at least have some sort of warning in which I can hear their approach and respond to their general direction upon being hit. Forges don't leave me that opportunity unless I already have line of sight on their position and am within renderable range of my target. The hit indicator is often misleading and turning on to respond to any one threat or another often doesn't gleam me any relevant information about where your shot may have come from. My only real option, as a pilot, is to run and hope that the hit indicators on my Dropship haven't glitched to the point where I'm running into another shot.
There's no sort of compelling or satisfying gameplay there, no back and forth between AV and Vehicle in which I can choose to gauge the threat of my target and decide whether or not to attack or flee; it's find a supply depot, find a nook or cranny, charge up and destroy.
You're a tiny glowing dot that may or may not render at any given time that could be literally anywhere on the map without me having a single clue that you've even spawned and you've destroyed me without me having any clue how or where I could have responded differently. Is that the sort of gameplay you want?
Yes. The same thing as a proto suit dying to a charged Sniper Rifle, take away Sniper rifles too? Flying makes you auto-vulnerable because everyone can see you, it comes with flying. Make the Breach Forge gun act like the charged Sniper rifle with drawbacks against vehicles, it's not like the Breach user is going anywhere, or doing much of anything other than hitting vehicles which it is designed to do and is super-vulnerable when it does. It was already difficult to kill a decent flyer with swarms before the patch, and trying to kill dropships with swarms competitively will be a joke in 1.7. The fact that you brought up swarms furthers the point of only using things when you feel safe from threats.
I'm glad that you mentioned snipers as it illustrates my point pretty succinctly.
It takes a considerable amount of skill for a sniper to 1 shot a proto with anything short of a headshot (or multiple given the HP values I see running around). There's multiple avenues of cover that an infantry person can take compared to a Dropship that's in the air. Having shot at me I can see a weapon trail that leads directly back to you, the sniper, and can choose whether or not your worth my time to try to pursue. If I choose to engage you and can navigate and avoid your shots well enough then I'm rewarded with having put you out of your effective range, getting close to you weakens you and strengthens me.
None of this happens with a Dropship vs. Forge. I get close to you (assuming I saw where you shot from to begin with) and you're in no way less powerful or potent, if anything you're MORE powerful because I've lended you a larger target to shoot at, your damage hasn't fallen off and its no more difficult for you to take me out at 30m as it was at 300m.
JudgeRhadamanthus goes over this point further in his dropship video series, if you're interested in seeing the other side's point of view then I'd suggest subscribing and checking out his videos. All credits to him for the original source of the argument I've (tried) to present.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w-sVXgJKSQ
1.7 LAVs - Thoughts and Discussion
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Foundation Seldon
Gespenster Kompanie
Villore Accords
269
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 04:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
Justin Tymes wrote:
Experienced Sniper users will double tap kill you, Experienced Charge and Thale users can down protos, seriously if you find out that Sniper's location, the Sniper made a mistake, or he's a bad Sniper. But point is that if you die by a Sniper, you have no idea where it's coming from, you just know you got hit by one. That smoke trail is also entirely angle dependent so often you're able to hit someone and he has no idea where you're coming from.
Fails to take into account of how this balances during an actual battle. Again the Breach Forge has a long charge time, it's only getting 1 shot with no splash while being immobile while charging and limited to the heavy suit, which is mediocre at best. It's not helping on the ground, it's only doing 1 thing, and that's downing vehicles. The long charge time means that it can't tag anything that flees, and if it misses it's useless, because you just gave away you location to everyone on the field within 200 meters.
300m* which you can cover an exceptionally large area with against an opponent that has extremely limited if any means of realistic cover and has a large hittable area. Placing yourself on a tower or roaming with an LAV mitigates the threat of dealing with infantry in any sort of realistic fashion so them seeing the shot doesn't change much for you with the right conditions.
We simply won't see eye to eye on this issue.
1.7 LAVs - Thoughts and Discussion
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Foundation Seldon
Gespenster Kompanie
Villore Accords
270
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 05:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
Quil Evrything wrote:Foundation Seldon wrote:... and they're pretty reasonable! CCP Logibro wrote:Forge Gun numbers!
Assault
STD GÇô N/A
ADV - 1525 -> 1375 | 2.5 -> 3.0
PRO - 1663 -> 1500 | 2.5 -> 3.0
This part is not reasonable. for EVERY OTHER "assault" varient, ROF goes up, while damage goes DOWN. But for forge, ROF goes up, AND damage goes UP, compared to regular?!! Okay, they lowered it from what it was before.. but it's Still Wrong! It has to be lower than the regular forge damage.
I don't disagree with you and it's something I've brought up myself on multiple occasions. At the very least now the difference between Assault Forge damage and Regular Forge damage of the same tier is negligible, Assault Forges are only getting about 60-65 more damage per shot.
1.7 LAVs - Thoughts and Discussion
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