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Absoliav
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
91
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Posted - 2013.12.05 02:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
I really don't like the number change done to the Breach, the Assault is now more superior than the Breach in every way, with these new numbers why should we even use the Breach when the Assault can do 900 more damage in the same amount of time as the Breach? |
Absoliav
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
91
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Posted - 2013.12.05 02:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
Vitharr Foebane wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Sick, I'm definitely happy with that. The breach does seem a tad underwhelming now, but it was definitely too strong before. We'll have to see how it works out, but this looks like a good start Yea, the breach was so strong that NOBODY USED IT PERIOD. The breach is great for one thing popping dropships like over ripe tomatoes
I think you have the Breach confused with the Assault. |
Absoliav
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
91
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Posted - 2013.12.05 02:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Foundation Seldon wrote:Justin Tymes wrote:Which is why I don't understand the Breach nerf. Assault Forge can tag fleeing vehicles and Infantry, still OHKOs Infantry, and 2 shots from an Assault Forge > 1 shot from a Breach Forge.
Of course it's not the only useless Breach weapon in the game, most need a serious look. The Breach nerf probably had to do with Dropships more than anything else. Their effective HP without modules on is MUCH lower than it is now and if Forge numbers had stayed the same then they would have been in a pretty precarious position.
The overall nerf to the FG is understandable, but the nerf done to the Breach just makes it downright useless, the Assault is two times faster than the Breach giving it a higher damage output while allowing the user movement and more damage in the same amount of time it takes to fire a Breach. |
Absoliav
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
91
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Posted - 2013.12.05 02:59:00 -
[4] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Absoliav wrote:Vitharr Foebane wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Sick, I'm definitely happy with that. The breach does seem a tad underwhelming now, but it was definitely too strong before. We'll have to see how it works out, but this looks like a good start Yea, the breach was so strong that NOBODY USED IT PERIOD. The breach is great for one thing popping dropships like over ripe tomatoes I think you have the Breach confused with the Assault. Actually no, the Breach has always frightened me far more than the Assault when I'm flying, particularly if he's with a friend or two with AV. The Breach could almost one shot any dropship, my fit and a couple others can limp away, but when you add just one militia swarm or forge or even plasma cannon if you're close enough, and it's lights out. Most other dropships just pop. I use the IAFG over the BFG because I'm a lonewolf nutjob and I need the mobility. The breach is best in squads, and best at popping dropships. I'm not entirely sure what the breach is for right now, since its alpha damage isn't too powerful. I personally feel somewhere near 2,400 would be good, but there's no way to know until we actually sit down with everything (though you math magicians certainly do a good job)
That's the idea of the Breach, but the problem with it is the Assault, before the Proto Assault could do 554 more damage than the Proto Breach in the same time it takes to fire a proto Breach pre 1.7, with the new numbers the Proto Assault now leads with 900 damage over the Breach in the same amount of time with far less risk to the user. |
Absoliav
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
91
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 03:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
Crimson Cerberes wrote:Not horrible... a 25% nerf to DPS (IAFG = 1215DPS now, 925DPS after patch). Still might be a bit much but i prefer the nerf stick over the nerf bat.
Sadly the Breach got the nerf sledgehammer. |
Absoliav
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
91
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Posted - 2013.12.05 03:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
Foundation Seldon wrote: It's one issue but certainly not the only one, I'd still argue that, thanks to their range not having changed, the Forge is still in a position where its got a HUGE advantage over anything flying in the air. With Swarms I at least have some sort of warning in which I can hear their approach and respond to their general direction upon being hit. Forges don't leave me that opportunity unless I already have line of sight on their position and am within renderable range of my target. The hit indicator is often misleading and turning on to respond to any one threat or another often doesn't gleam me any relevant information about where your shot may have come from. My only real option, as a pilot, is to run and hope that the hit indicators on my Dropship haven't glitched to the point where I'm running into another shot.
There's no sort of compelling or satisfying gameplay there, no back and forth between AV and Vehicle in which I can choose to gauge the threat of my target and decide whether or not to attack or flee; it's find a supply depot, find a nook or cranny, charge up and destroy.
You're a tiny glowing dot that may or may not render at any given time that could be literally anywhere on the map without me having a single clue that you've even spawned and you've destroyed me without me having any clue how or where I could have responded differently. Is that the sort of gameplay you want?
Understandable as your point maybe, it's still an irrelevant issue, rendering problems are a different issue on their own and cannot be factored in to vehicle/anti-vehicle balance, since it's an outside factor, you can't blame anti-vehicle weapons for a problem that isn't related/caused by them. |
Absoliav
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
91
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 04:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
Disturbingly Bored wrote:Absoliav wrote:Crimson Cerberes wrote:Not horrible... a 25% nerf to DPS (IAFG = 1215DPS now, 925DPS after patch). Still might be a bit much but i prefer the nerf stick over the nerf bat. Sadly the Breach got the nerf sledgehammer. Sorry, sir, but math. Normal FG got a 25% DPS reduction, AFG and BFG both got a 33% reduction. I disagree that an extra 8% takes something from a stick to a sledgehammer. AFG will still be the one gun to rule them all. (From a distance.)
Here is some math for you, the AFG pre 1.7 can do 1663 in 2.5 seconds at proto level while the Breach can do 2772 in 6.0 seconds, these number show the ineffectiveness of the Breach while at the same time showing superiority of the Assault, in 6 seconds the assault outperforms the Breach with a lead of 554 damage in 5 seconds, now with 1.7's new stats the Breach is now 2100 in 6.0 seconds while the assault is 1500 in 3.0 seconds, the assault now leads with 900 damage in 6 seconds, so I ask you, "Why would you even bother considering using a Breach?"
The new stats make the Breach even more of an inferior weapon by simply making weaker, yes, the damage reduction is comparable to the other FG variants but it hits the BFG harder even more cause it's already questionable existence when compared to the AFG, which beats it in every possible field outside of OHKing and ammo conservation. |
Absoliav
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
91
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 04:20:00 -
[8] - Quote
Foundation Seldon wrote:I'm glad that you mentioned snipers as it illustrates my point pretty succinctly. It takes a considerable amount of skill for a sniper to 1 shot a proto with anything short of a headshot (or multiple given the HP values I see running around). There's multiple avenues of cover that an infantry person can take compared to a Dropship that's in the air. Having shot at me I can see a weapon trail that leads directly back to you, the sniper, and can choose whether or not your worth my time to try to pursue. If I choose to engage you and can navigate and avoid your shots well enough then I'm rewarded with having put you out of your effective range, getting close to you weakens you and strengthens me. None of this happens with a Dropship vs. Forge. I get close to you (assuming I saw where you shot from to begin with) and you're in no way less powerful or potent, if anything you're MORE powerful because I've lended you a larger target to shoot at, your damage hasn't fallen off and its no more difficult for you to take me out at 30m as it was at 300m. JudgeRhadamanthus goes over this point further in his dropship video series, if you're interested in seeing the other side's point of view then I'd suggest subscribing and checking out his videos. All credits to him for the original source of the argument I've (tried) to present. www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w-sVXgJKSQ
The problem with your argument is that rendering issues with vehicles isn't tied to the FG's performance, it's a problem with the how the game operates, you are saying that the because the game has rendering issues, FGs should be weakened to accommodate vehicle rendering issues, you are ignoring an issue in favor of your opinion, ignoring the issue of veiw rendering doesn't make it go way. |
Absoliav
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
91
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Posted - 2013.12.05 04:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
Crimson Cerberes wrote:
Justify the swarm launcher range nerf in the light of your last statement.
I never agreed with it, and I still don't, it shouldn't have happened and it was a poor way of dealing with a serious problem, and I don't want anything similar to happen again for anything in this game, ignoring problems doesn't solve anything, it just allows it to persist. |
Absoliav
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
93
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Posted - 2013.12.05 15:39:00 -
[10] - Quote
Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Problem = fix dificulty = FG fix < rendering fix
If "IF" and when rendering EVER gets fixed then the FG can be easily rebalanced. Sounds to me like you're just trying to defend your unfair advantage here
The distances with which the FG can be effective is also an issue here. At the extreme end of the opporation range of the FG the FG opporater is EXTREMELY dificult to locate, not to mention target, due to size/distance.
Some kind of lingering tracer needs to be added to the FG round as it travels at the very least. As well the light emitted from the forge should be far more easily identified at extreme ranges.
I'm not defending an unfair advantage, the FG is working as it's intended, it's vehicles that are having an issue while the FG is getting the blame for it, rendering will not be fixed by simply ignoring it.
Your solution to the FG is a far more reasonable solution than what most would want, and a better answer than just nerfing it, if CCP made it easier to identify the location or direction of an FG shot it would make a lot of the rendering issues less taxing on Pilots.
Again, I'm not argue if this change to the FG wasn't unreasonable, I'm saying that it's unbalanced, why is the Assault still the most powerful FG, why is it still going to wipe infantry and vehicles, while only suffering one minor inconvenience? It's too good of a gun, the Breach isn't even considered for AV most of the time cause of how comparatively inferior it is to the AFG. |
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Absoliav
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
93
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Posted - 2013.12.05 17:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
KA24DERT wrote:Still needs a random trajectory deviation to make sniping infantry a little harder.
That's not a bad idea, it is a pretty big gun, I think if they increased the amount of sway the gun produces while charging it would help balance it out and help with the problem of it being able to do more damage than a HAV railgun. |
Absoliav
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
93
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Posted - 2013.12.06 07:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
Quil Evrything wrote:Absoliav wrote:KA24DERT wrote:Still needs a random trajectory deviation to make sniping infantry a little harder. That's not a bad idea, it is a pretty big gun, I think if they increased the amount of sway the gun produces while charging it would help balance it out and help with the problem of it being able to do more damage than a HAV railgun. Dont think it would help. Seems like its a "scanhit" weapon, so the sway is cosmetic only? When I try to use it to kill infantry and get a direct hit, i get the 50 WP credit, before the animation of the big blue shiney finishes travelling to the target.
You misunderstood me, I mean the FG should have a charge sway, as the FG builds a charge, it would begin to shake/sway more, making it more difficult to hit smaller/distant targets and would require more timing of shots. |
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