Why on earth would you want to be forced into pairing weapons with suits just to get the most out of them?

This game lets you create all sorts of ingenious varieties of fits. Finding an interesting way of using a suit's bonus encourages us to be creative. Limiting those bonuses to a specific suit & rifle combo just turns us into generic footsoldiers.

But the racial has 5 highs which allows you to go 2 Complex DMG plus 1 Complex DMG sidearm along with your 100 rounds SMG or 4 shot per clip Flaylock.

Doesnt seem that bad.

Yes i agree i think that every assault suit should get a bonus related to the racial weapon tech. Since the Rail and Combat rifle will be introduced soon I don't see a problem with doing this. They perhaps didn't do this at first because if you think about it:

If you were a minnie assault with a bonus to CR but if the CR wasn't out you would get a bonus to a non-existent weapon.

This won't be the case soon and I would think this would change with updates or even hot-fixes if able. The bonus minmatar have with SMG somewhat reflects this concept but now that the CR will be released then it should be changed to perhaps a bonus to clip size of the Combat Rifle?? I not sure what the caldari bonus would be but of course it should be related to the Rail Rifle. Hopefully this will be changed within reasonable time.

I'd like to see all assault suits get a not quite direct damage boost to their racial weapons (laser heat build up, projectile clip size, plasma reload?, rail range?).

And then add in another assault type suit with a generic bonus (shield amount?, shield recharge/delay, armour amount, armour rep, speed, etc).

Yes and no,

The Caldari assault should get a reduction to spool up time (all light rail weapons should have spool up time)

The Amarr is good,


The other two are harder to come by, light projectile weapon clip for minmatar might work, not sure for the gallente.

While I understand your complaint, I'd like to direct you to the M209. 100 rounds with this thing deals a world of hurt.

I would love to have a minni assault dropsuit for my AV fit. Proto swarms in prime slot. Proto assault scram pistol in sidearm(With much need ammo boost). f*ck up tanks and infantry in all match.

But besides that, the bonus does suck.

With just a 0.2 spool up time on the rail rifle, that bonus would be almost useless.

How about a reduction in damage falloff for rail weapons? It would technically be boosting range (fitting for the caldari) but won't actually add any range to the gun.

A reload bonus to plasma weapons seems fitting for the Gallente.

An increase to projectile weapon clip capacity seems fitting. Especially since Jagerblitzen said clip capacity was the biggest hinderance to the combat rifle.

I'm not saying that there has to be something to force you to play that way. The Amarr weapons, for example, are perfectly usable without the Assault or Heavy's skill bonuses. Using the suit gives you further bonuses to those weapons, but doesn't break them. The other suits have a series of eclectic at best skills. How many times have you taken advantage of larger Sidearm clips? At least the Caldari and Gallente have skills that match up their racial somewhat to their suit, with Gallente getting a discount to PG usage of Hybrids, while Caldari get to jump back into the fray faster with a smaller Shield Recharge frame. The Minmatar one gives no real bonus to combat unless you handicap yourself into using sidearms as your main weaponry.

So, to copy your phrasing. Why on Earth would you be against pairing weapons and suits for actually useful bonuses?

That is nice, but wouldn't you rather get more shots for a primary weapon? Or if the bonus I'd prefer (bigger clips on projectile weapons) goes through, it would effect SMGs and the CR. Plus, ask yourself how many times you have to fire past the weapon's natural clip threshold. That tells you how much you depend on the suit bonus. If it isn't that often...

To start, I answered that final question in my first response.

Of course the weapons are viable outside the suits that boost their performance. That's not the issue. The issue is giving someone a bonus that they can't use just because they didn't want to play the way someone else told them to.

The shield bonus for Caldari is great because they already have excellent shield stats, and anyone picking that suit does so for that reason. Similarly the sidearm bonus is effective because not only does nearly everybody field a sidearm, but because the Minmatar suit is the most likely to be in the kind of CQC battles where a reload can cost you your life.

These are versatile bonuses. They apply whether you're running with a sniper or a mass driver or anything in between.
A great example is Taz 666. He has his swarm launcher maxed out, and his SMG is viable as a primary. He hasn't abided by some pre-conceived notion of what his suit should have equipped, rather he has found a way to make the suit's bonus perfectly compliment his playstyle.

Now think about those Gallente who run a scrambler rifle. It's an amazing setup to behold, but because it doesn't fit into the racial purity you want to establish, the setup gets nothing. In fact it gets worse than nothing. It loses out on a bonus for not playing the game the way you wanted it to.

I think this idea undermines one of the core concepts of Dust.

I agree with that, but I would increase the spool up time to something like .4 or .5,

Damage fall off is a good a good substitute though

There's other sidearms, and more coming as well like the Magsec SMG and Ion Pistol. If the bonus affected total clip size for ScR Pistols instead of base clip size, it could very well be one of the best assault racial bonuses in the game.

craziest title to a thread ever.

Didn't feel like gussying it up as some huge problem that everyone hates. Just stated the truth. Although the whole bonuses thing will be something that effects everyone eventually, as long as CCP holds on the no-respec thing.

[quote=Chunky Munkey]

1. Your speech is nice, but you're simply misunderstanding something.

DUST is about 'customization' as is EVE, but there are obviously better fits here or there, and each ship has bonuses for its equipment. All the bonuses we have in DUST are placeholders. Whether you like them or not, most of them are changing once they fix some bug in the code that prevents them from doing so. Your whole 'We should be able to make whatever we want' schtick is valid, but it is just as valid as my 'Suits should have bonuses towards their racial attributes.

2. Secondly, you're little 'racial purity' line is laughable. Gals with ScRs already exist, and they're already missing out on the Amarr Assault bonus. Are you implying that you don't want the Amarr Assault to have that bonus, or that I am wrong for liking it? It makes sense for the suits to be better with their races guns. The suits were designed to use them. Ignoring that just to cry foul over what damage this would do to 'customization' is fruitless and uneducated.

3. Should I ask CCP to remove all the racial turret and tanking bonuses off of EVE ships because it promotes using that race's turrets above all others? Should we ask them to remove the Amarr Assault's bonus because it promotes the use of Amarr weaponry on an Amarr suit?

4. One symptom of this is the Logistics 'problem. The whole reason Logistics suits are such proficient killers is due to the lack of decent racial bonuses. If the only thing deciding how good a suit is is it's fitting, why not pick the suit with the biggest and best slot assignment? You even get equipment slots on the side!

5. The core concept of DUST is EVE on foot. Stop defending useless bonuses for no other reason than preventing good bonuses from effecting suit builds. It would be laughable if I couldn't tell you weren't serious. Especially thanks to that Scrambler Rifle line. Now it's just sad.

craziest title to a thread ever.

ITT- people who need to use their side arms more. Pistols and SMGs will eat your silly little ARs alive indoors friends.

I am aware that until further notice CCP cannot give the suits the bonuses they want to give them. What I am saying is that this should be next on their 'bugfix tour'.

I've numbered your arguments to make this easier.

1. Saying "CCP have done it before, therefore they should do it again." Is not an argument in favour of anything.

2. Yes Gals with ScRs already exist. That's my point. You want to penalise people for picking the weapon they want and the suit they want. Those GalScRs are all logis from what I've seen, because the Assault forces them to use weapons they don't want.

3. This isn't EVE. No matter how much you want it to be.

4. Your idea would only exacerbate this problem. A person will pick a suit they want, but will see that the assault version tells them to use a rifle they don't. So what will they do? They'll choose logistics instead, to get a similar suit with more versatility and perhaps even a bonus they can use.

5. This is classic projection: I'm not defending useless bonuses, you are. All Caldari Assaults benefit from their bonus. All Minmatar Assaults benefit from theirs. You're the one defending bonuses that will be unusable by a large portion of the community.

I'm calling for suit bonuses that play to the strengths of the suits. Freeing it up to the player how to best utilise them.
You're calling for AR 514 to be expanded upon, and rolled out universally.

You know, this is actually a very good point. For all those light-on-content patches we've been getting as of late, 1.5 and 1.6, for examples, changing the suit bonuses would have been an EXCELLENT "filler" for these patches that would have had a tremendously positive impact in the game. Changes like having a Gallente assault suit NOT have a bonus related to shields would go far in satiating the players' desires for a more racially-reflective game.

In fact, if we are to have future light-on-content patches in 1.8 and beyond (nothing confirmed, just speculating), then adjusting racial suit bonuses is one of those things that can be done where there doesn't need to be shiny new things but still has a very real effect and impact on the game.

I understand that you have become very good at the use of sidearms, but you must admit that it is not the most efficient playstyle.

The Min Assault is suited for flanking in for CQC just as the bonus suggests. Side arms beat just about any light weapon in CQC. It's a tankier scout. I also run scout mk.0 which has a very specific bonus to, again, a side arm. Minnie's are CQC. They're not meant to excel in long range engagements.

In my opinion the bonus allows you make weapons like the scrambler pistol into a more viable main, the SMG into a baby HMG, and the flaylock... well, the flaylock sucks but if it didn't it would make it great as well. Just because the bonus does not make a light weapon better doesn't make it useless. It increases your overall potential damage output before having to reload. That is an offensive skill that no other suit has. It gives you a massive advantage offensively within 15 to 20m.

While the Amarr suit's complement their specific weaponry which I'm sure is nice I am quite happy with my bonus and would be very displeased if it changed.

OOOOOOOOOH! I have the little square thing on my avatar picture on my last post, and I still have no damn clue what the hell it means.

Giving each assault suit a bonus to their respective racial weapons would go a long way in defining the assault's role. So long as the bonus isn't a direct increase to damage.
While the heavies could have bonuses to extenders and plates.

Why on earth would you want to be forced into pairing weapons with suits just to get the most out of them?

This game lets you create all sorts of ingenious varieties of fits. Finding an interesting way of using a suit's bonus encourages us to be creative. Limiting those bonuses to a specific suit & rifle combo just turns us into generic footsoldiers.

Forced is a harsh word.
My friend uses an SCR with a Gal Logi, and to extreme effect.
But the Amarr Assault elevates it further.

So what do you think the bonuses should be then?

The Amarr already has this kind of bonus, and your little GalLogi examples are missing out on it and doing fine, so what's the problem? Also, to counter this numbering...

1. This is DUST. It is supposed to be EVE: the FPS, not CoD or BF. In EVE you have perfect customization, but your hull chooses a few bonuses for you which steer your choices. If you like projectile weapons but you are bound and determined to use Gallente gear then it is your own fault for missing out on the bonuses, not the fault of the game designers or those who do combine Minmatar tech for best efficiency.

2. So they don't already penalize themselves on not being an Amarr Assault? The Assault suits need the kind of bonus the Amarr has to make themselves the better killers, like combat ships in EVE have bonuses to combat roles. The Logistics need bonuses to Logistics roles, but they can't yet so they have more fitting. Once they fix the Assault's bonuses, they will have also fixed the underlying problems to give the Logis theirs.

3. This isn't EVE, but it is New Eden. You have to use attributes from the original product to make it stick out as such. we already have tons of pure shooters, and several of them are coming out with a new iteration about now. We need to have these kinds of things to differentiate DUST, and to make it make sense in the context of New Eden.

4. You have this backwards. A person will look at the bonuses if the suits to see what suit caters to their playstyle. If they choose a suit just because of what it looks like with no heed to the suit's built in characteristics, they deserve to get screwed over. AS for the Logistics thing, see 2.

5. You are defending stupid and pointless bonuses. CCP themselves have said that most of the bonuses we have are filler trash that they have put in place until they fix some underlying issue or other. Also, many of these bonuses make no sense. Gallente get a bonus that works for Caldari weapons, Minmatar have a bonus that works for Amarr, and soon Caldari, weapons, Gallente have a bonus to shields for Armok's sake! These bonuses make no sense in the confines of New Eden lore, and can and WILL be replaced by much better ones SOONtm. If I am mad for thinking that CCP will replace them with useful ones that reflect the EVE bonuses, then I am mad.

6. You are calling for the bonuses to stay the same, as you have not offered any others to be thought of. You are accusing me of wanting 'AR514' to be expanded upon, foolishly ignoring every other weapon that falls under the purview of 'racial.'

Minmatar
HMG
Combat Rifle
Mass Driver
SMG
Flaylock Pistol
Minmatar Knife (SOONtm)
Locus Grenade
Repair Tool

ALL of these are candidates for getting bonuses on Minmatar suits. One Logi, one Heavy, One Scout, and four Assault items. This is not an expansion of AR514. If you honestly thought that, try to reconsider your standing.

Forced is a harsh word.
My friend uses an SCR with a Gal Logi, and to extreme effect.
But the Amarr Assault elevates it further.

Thank you, a walnut space cookie for you. I swear he just wants to be argumentative.

Skip the patronising.
You want to limit the diversity of a game that tries to encourage it.

The Minmatar bonus makes it so that you have to use the sidearm religiously to make use of it. How many times have you pulled out your sidearm ingame? And how many times out of that have you needed the full clip? You can only really get use of the Minmatar Assault bonus if you go past the limits of the normal sidearm's clip size... but it would probably have been more efficient to just reload your main weapon by that point.

And you aren't doing the exact same thing? What if I want to run a Light weapon on my Minmatar suit? A Minmatar Light weapon? It makes no sense that it gets no bonuses. Its a two way street. Everything you try to appply to my argumnets works just as well to yours.

If you want to run a light weapon on your Minny Assault, you can. More importantly you can run ANY light weapon, without any worry of inadvertently gimping yourself. As I said before, the nature of the suit is the most likely of the four to utilise a sidearm. As such, the bonus benefits the suit, rather than any particular weapon. Leaving it up to you to find a way to enjoy or capitalise upon it.

This is why people want armour bonuses for the Gallente. Because even without any bonuses, it is thought of as the armour tanking suit, even though personally I think of it as the suit with the low slots.
Another reason I'm relatively comfortable with the Amarr Assault bonus is that, as we can see from these forums, the Amarr are the most popular for role-play. So equipping them with Amarr weapons is much more common.

What you want is to implement a rule of role-play-or-else. All assault suits filling the same role, and penalising them when they don't adhere. You cannot say the same for what I am advocating.

Sooo if I play in an amarr suit, I am FORCED to play with either a scrambler or laser rifle, because otherwise it won't be as effective?

Now I understand the lore behind, and eve logistics behind it! But if you were to do it, it would need to be incredibly subtle, enough that you aren't forced to match them!

Now in the amarr example the current bonus works well, it doesn't actually increase mag size, it just allows you to fire for longer periods of time!

So if you are gonna do it, don't over do it. And make it a racial weapon bonus so you have 3 perks a suit!

That's the idea. Nothing to increase the damage output directly, so no Damage increase or RPM increase. Subtle things like increasing shots per clip with Minmatar or the Amarr bonus. They will influence your choices obviously, but that's the point of bonuses. Unless KAGEHOSHI totally rewrote the linked thread, there's a ton of good ideas there. Also, I'd prefer three unique bonuses per suit. Example: In EVE, there was a skill called Destroyers. It gave two bonuses to the four racial Destroyers, derived from its level. No two Destroyers got the same skill bonuses. Similarly, the racial Frigate skills do the same. It makes no sense to just have an 'Assault' bonus. Even less seeing as no two Assault suits even share the same skills beyond 'dropsuits'.

I'm just going to stop replying to you after this Zero.
This is not Eve. Just because these are the kinds of bonuses in one game is not good justification for putting them in another.
I've been over this three times already. You don't seem to be responding to the points I'm making about the gameplay implications, just repeating the same adherence to an inconsequential pattern.