DUST Search - I am dissatisfied with the Minmatar Assault bonus.

Zero Harpuia wrote:

So what do you think the bonuses should be then?

The Amarr already has this kind of bonus, and your little GalLogi examples are missing out on it and doing fine, so what's the problem? Also, to counter this numbering...

1. This is DUST. It is supposed to be EVE: the FPS, not CoD or BF. In EVE you have perfect customization, but your hull chooses a few bonuses for you which steer your choices. If you like projectile weapons but you are bound and determined to use Gallente gear then it is your own fault for missing out on the bonuses, not the fault of the game designers or those who do combine Minmatar tech for best efficiency.

2. So they don't already penalize themselves on not being an Amarr Assault? The Assault suits need the kind of bonus the Amarr has to make themselves the better killers, like combat ships in EVE have bonuses to combat roles. The Logistics need bonuses to Logistics roles, but they can't yet so they have more fitting. Once they fix the Assault's bonuses, they will have also fixed the underlying problems to give the Logis theirs.

3. This isn't EVE, but it is New Eden. You have to use attributes from the original product to make it stick out as such. we already have tons of pure shooters, and several of them are coming out with a new iteration about now. We need to have these kinds of things to differentiate DUST, and to make it make sense in the context of New Eden.

4. You have this backwards. A person will look at the bonuses if the suits to see what suit caters to their playstyle. If they choose a suit just because of what it looks like with no heed to the suit's built in characteristics, they deserve to get screwed over. AS for the Logistics thing, see 2.

5. You are defending stupid and pointless bonuses. CCP themselves have said that most of the bonuses we have are filler trash that they have put in place until they fix some underlying issue or other. Also, many of these bonuses make no sense. Gallente get a bonus that works for Caldari weapons, Minmatar have a bonus that works for Amarr, and soon Caldari, weapons, Gallente have a bonus to shields for Armok's sake! These bonuses make no sense in the confines of New Eden lore, and can and WILL be replaced by much better ones SOONtm. If I am mad for thinking that CCP will replace them with useful ones that reflect the EVE bonuses, then I am mad.

6. You are calling for the bonuses to stay the same, as you have not offered any others to be thought of. You are accusing me of wanting 'AR514' to be expanded upon, foolishly ignoring every other weapon that falls under the purview of 'racial.'

Minmatar
HMG
Combat Rifle
Mass Driver
SMG
Flaylock Pistol
Minmatar Knife (SOONtm)
Locus Grenade
Repair Tool

ALL of these are candidates for getting bonuses on Minmatar suits. One Logi, one Heavy, One Scout, and four Assault items. This is not an expansion of AR514. If you honestly thought that, try to reconsider your standing.


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Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 2158	Posted - 2013.11.14 23:27:00 - [1] - Quote Why on earth would you want to be forced into pairing weapons with suits just to get the most out of them? This game lets you create all sorts of ingenious varieties of fits. Finding an interesting way of using a suit's bonus encourages us to be creative. Limiting those bonuses to a specific suit & rifle combo just turns us into generic footsoldiers. No.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 2165	Posted - 2013.11.15 02:05:00 - [2] - Quote Zero Harpuia wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: Why on earth would you want to be forced into pairing weapons with suits just to get the most out of them? This game lets you create all sorts of ingenious varieties of fits. Finding an interesting way of using a suit's bonus encourages us to be creative. Limiting those bonuses to a specific suit & rifle combo just turns us into generic footsoldiers. I'm not saying that there has to be something to force you to play that way. The Amarr weapons, for example, are perfectly usable without the Assault or Heavy's skill bonuses. Using the suit gives you further bonuses to those weapons, but doesn't break them. The other suits have a series of eclectic at best skills. How many times have you taken advantage of larger Sidearm clips? At least the Caldari and Gallente have skills that match up their racial somewhat to their suit, with Gallente getting a discount to PG usage of Hybrids, while Caldari get to jump back into the fray faster with a smaller Shield Recharge frame. The Minmatar one gives no real bonus to combat unless you handicap yourself into using sidearms as your main weaponry. So, to copy your phrasing. Why on Earth would you be against pairing weapons and suits for actually useful bonuses? To start, I answered that final question in my first response. Of course the weapons are viable outside the suits that boost their performance. That's not the issue. The issue is giving someone a bonus that they can't use just because they didn't want to play the way someone else told them to. The shield bonus for Caldari is great because they already have excellent shield stats, and anyone picking that suit does so for that reason. Similarly the sidearm bonus is effective because not only does nearly everybody field a sidearm, but because the Minmatar suit is the most likely to be in the kind of CQC battles where a reload can cost you your life. These are versatile bonuses. They apply whether you're running with a sniper or a mass driver or anything in between. A great example is Taz 666. He has his swarm launcher maxed out, and his SMG is viable as a primary. He hasn't abided by some pre-conceived notion of what his suit should have equipped, rather he has found a way to make the suit's bonus perfectly compliment his playstyle. Now think about those Gallente who run a scrambler rifle. It's an amazing setup to behold, but because it doesn't fit into the racial purity you want to establish, the setup gets nothing. In fact it gets worse than nothing. It loses out on a bonus for not playing the game the way you wanted it to. I think this idea undermines one of the core concepts of Dust. No.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 2172	Posted - 2013.11.15 13:21:00 - [3] - Quote Zero Harpuia wrote: [quote=Chunky Munkey] 1. Your speech is nice, but you're simply misunderstanding something. DUST is about 'customization' as is EVE, but there are obviously better fits here or there, and each ship has bonuses for its equipment. All the bonuses we have in DUST are placeholders. Whether you like them or not, most of them are changing once they fix some bug in the code that prevents them from doing so. Your whole 'We should be able to make whatever we want' schtick is valid, but it is just as valid as my 'Suits should have bonuses towards their racial attributes. 2. Secondly, you're little 'racial purity' line is laughable. Gals with ScRs already exist, and they're already missing out on the Amarr Assault bonus. Are you implying that you don't want the Amarr Assault to have that bonus, or that I am wrong for liking it? It makes sense for the suits to be better with their races guns. The suits were designed to use them. Ignoring that just to cry foul over what damage this would do to 'customization' is fruitless and uneducated. 3. Should I ask CCP to remove all the racial turret and tanking bonuses off of EVE ships because it promotes using that race's turrets above all others? Should we ask them to remove the Amarr Assault's bonus because it promotes the use of Amarr weaponry on an Amarr suit? 4. One symptom of this is the Logistics 'problem. The whole reason Logistics suits are such proficient killers is due to the lack of decent racial bonuses. If the only thing deciding how good a suit is is it's fitting, why not pick the suit with the biggest and best slot assignment? You even get equipment slots on the side! 5. The core concept of DUST is EVE on foot. Stop defending useless bonuses for no other reason than preventing good bonuses from effecting suit builds. It would be laughable if I couldn't tell you weren't serious. Especially thanks to that Scrambler Rifle line. Now it's just sad. I've numbered your arguments to make this easier. 1. Saying "CCP have done it before, therefore they should do it again." Is not an argument in favour of anything. 2. Yes Gals with ScRs already exist. That's my point. You want to penalise people for picking the weapon they want and the suit they want. Those GalScRs are all logis from what I've seen, because the Assault forces them to use weapons they don't want. 3. This isn't EVE. No matter how much you want it to be. 4. Your idea would only exacerbate this problem. A person will pick a suit they want, but will see that the assault version tells them to use a rifle they don't. So what will they do? They'll choose logistics instead, to get a similar suit with more versatility and perhaps even a bonus they can use. 5. This is classic projection: I'm not defending useless bonuses, you are. All Caldari Assaults benefit from their bonus. All Minmatar Assaults benefit from theirs. You're the one defending bonuses that will be unusable by a large portion of the community. I'm calling for suit bonuses that play to the strengths of the suits. Freeing it up to the player how to best utilise them. You're calling for AR 514 to be expanded upon, and rolled out universally. No.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 2172	Posted - 2013.11.15 13:23:00 - [4] - Quote low genius wrote: craziest title to a thread ever. May as well have said he's dissatisfied with bacon. No.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 2172	Posted - 2013.11.15 18:56:00 - [5] - Quote Zero Harpuia wrote: So what do you think the bonuses should be then? The Amarr already has this kind of bonus, and your little GalLogi examples are missing out on it and doing fine, so what's the problem? Also, to counter this numbering... 1. This is DUST. It is supposed to be EVE: the FPS, not CoD or BF. In EVE you have perfect customization, but your hull chooses a few bonuses for you which steer your choices. If you like projectile weapons but you are bound and determined to use Gallente gear then it is your own fault for missing out on the bonuses, not the fault of the game designers or those who do combine Minmatar tech for best efficiency. 2. So they don't already penalize themselves on not being an Amarr Assault? The Assault suits need the kind of bonus the Amarr has to make themselves the better killers, like combat ships in EVE have bonuses to combat roles. The Logistics need bonuses to Logistics roles, but they can't yet so they have more fitting. Once they fix the Assault's bonuses, they will have also fixed the underlying problems to give the Logis theirs. 3. This isn't EVE, but it is New Eden. You have to use attributes from the original product to make it stick out as such. we already have tons of pure shooters, and several of them are coming out with a new iteration about now. We need to have these kinds of things to differentiate DUST, and to make it make sense in the context of New Eden. 4. You have this backwards. A person will look at the bonuses if the suits to see what suit caters to their playstyle. If they choose a suit just because of what it looks like with no heed to the suit's built in characteristics, they deserve to get screwed over. AS for the Logistics thing, see 2. 5. You are defending stupid and pointless bonuses. CCP themselves have said that most of the bonuses we have are filler trash that they have put in place until they fix some underlying issue or other. Also, many of these bonuses make no sense. Gallente get a bonus that works for Caldari weapons, Minmatar have a bonus that works for Amarr, and soon Caldari, weapons, Gallente have a bonus to shields for Armok's sake! These bonuses make no sense in the confines of New Eden lore, and can and WILL be replaced by much better ones SOONtm. If I am mad for thinking that CCP will replace them with useful ones that reflect the EVE bonuses, then I am mad. 6. You are calling for the bonuses to stay the same, as you have not offered any others to be thought of. You are accusing me of wanting 'AR514' to be expanded upon, foolishly ignoring every other weapon that falls under the purview of 'racial.' Minmatar HMG Combat Rifle Mass Driver SMG Flaylock Pistol Minmatar Knife (SOONtm) Locus Grenade Repair Tool ALL of these are candidates for getting bonuses on Minmatar suits. One Logi, one Heavy, One Scout, and four Assault items. This is not an expansion of AR514. If you honestly thought that, try to reconsider your standing. 1. This is classic blame-shifting; "It's not our fault for severely limiting your choices. No, it's your fault for not playing the way we want you to." My only response is Fck that. 2. The only reason I don't object to the Amarr Assault bonus right now is that it is unique. It is the suit with the weapon bonus. We still have the option to pick an assault suit that doesn't limit oir choices. Making all the suits like this is boring. It goes from being unique to being the same as everything else. How is this an appealing concept? 3. I'm baffled by this. How does encouraging us all to run a smaller variety of setups make us different* from other FPSs!?!? There is no question that the kinds of bonuses I am advocating allow greater diversity in the game. 4. Once again I am baffled. This is exactly my point: a person picks a suit they like, and now they have 75% of all weapons placed off-limits. And heaven forbid they suffer for picking a weapon they actually want, because that would serve them right for not playing to the suit's advantages. This only increases the Logissault problem because somebody might want to armour tank, and they might want the Scrambler, but lo, that's not allowed. So they may as well grab the logi since it's going to at least give them more versatility, even if it doesn't give them a direct combat bonus. 5. Well forgive me for questioning CCP's impeccable decision making skills. This is called begging the question; you're complaining that the Minmatar bonus can benefit Amarr weaponry. But your only basis for thinking that is a bad thing is the origin of this whole debate. Incidentally: why are you complaining about a suit's bonus if you're so confident that it's just a placeholder? Do you want them to fix it before they fix it? 6. So unless I say something, you can assume that I believe the opposite? Is that how you approach exchanges like this? I've already stated that I want suits' bonuses to be tailored to the suits. I hate to break this to you, but not everybody gives a damn about what race the gear they wear is, and one last time: This. Is. Not. Eve. This is not a strategy game, it's an FPS. Gameplay trumps lore. End of story. How can you complain that suits don't have bonuses to assault when the Minmatar does!? It'serfectly contradictory. I'm in total agreement that the real problem of the Logissault is that the actual assault suits don't have good enough bonuses. All I'm saying is that your suggestion would reduce the amount of freedom we have in our fittings, it would reduce the diversity that makes combat in this game so much more interesting, and it would do this all in the mame of an adherence to the precedent set by a game that bears nothing more than a cosmetic similarity to the one we're playing. No.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 2172	Posted - 2013.11.15 19:06:00 - [6] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: Why on earth would you want to be forced into pairing weapons with suits just to get the most out of them? This game lets you create all sorts of ingenious varieties of fits. Finding an interesting way of using a suit's bonus encourages us to be creative. Limiting those bonuses to a specific suit & rifle combo just turns us into generic footsoldiers. Forced is a harsh word. My friend uses an SCR with a Gal Logi, and to extreme effect. But the Amarr Assault elevates it further. If the Gallente Assault didn't encourage you to run certain weapons, wouldn't that PG reduction be great on a Scrambler rifle though? But that would break the rules. We can't go running the weapoms we actually want! No.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 2172	Posted - 2013.11.15 19:08:00 - [7] - Quote Zero Harpuia wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: Why on earth would you want to be forced into pairing weapons with suits just to get the most out of them? This game lets you create all sorts of ingenious varieties of fits. Finding an interesting way of using a suit's bonus encourages us to be creative. Limiting those bonuses to a specific suit & rifle combo just turns us into generic footsoldiers. Forced is a harsh word. My friend uses an SCR with a Gal Logi, and to extreme effect. But the Amarr Assault elevates it further. Thank you, a walnut space cookie for you. I swear he just wants to be argumentative. Skip the patronising. You want to limit the diversity of a game that tries to encourage it. No.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 2178	Posted - 2013.11.15 22:45:00 - [8] - Quote Zero Harpuia wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: Why on earth would you want to be forced into pairing weapons with suits just to get the most out of them? This game lets you create all sorts of ingenious varieties of fits. Finding an interesting way of using a suit's bonus encourages us to be creative. Limiting those bonuses to a specific suit & rifle combo just turns us into generic footsoldiers. Forced is a harsh word. My friend uses an SCR with a Gal Logi, and to extreme effect. But the Amarr Assault elevates it further. Thank you, a walnut space cookie for you. I swear he just wants to be argumentative. Skip the patronising. You want to limit the diversity of a game that tries to encourage it. And you aren't doing the exact same thing? What if I want to run a Light weapon on my Minmatar suit? A Minmatar Light weapon? It makes no sense that it gets no bonuses. Its a two way street. Everything you try to appply to my argumnets works just as well to yours. If you want to run a light weapon on your Minny Assault, you can. More importantly you can run ANY light weapon, without any worry of inadvertently gimping yourself. As I said before, the nature of the suit is the most likely of the four to utilise a sidearm. As such, the bonus benefits the suit, rather than any particular weapon. Leaving it up to you to find a way to enjoy or capitalise upon it. This is why people want armour bonuses for the Gallente. Because even without any bonuses, it is thought of as the armour tanking suit, even though personally I think of it as the suit with the low slots. Another reason I'm relatively comfortable with the Amarr Assault bonus is that, as we can see from these forums, the Amarr are the most popular for role-play. So equipping them with Amarr weapons is much more common. What you want is to implement a rule of role-play-or-else. All assault suits filling the same role, and penalising them when they don't adhere. You cannot say the same for what I am advocating. No.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 2180	Posted - 2013.11.15 23:26:00 - [9] - Quote I'm just going to stop replying to you after this Zero. This is not Eve. Just because these are the kinds of bonuses in one game is not good justification for putting them in another. I've been over this three times already. You don't seem to be responding to the points I'm making about the gameplay implications, just repeating the same adherence to an inconsequential pattern. No.