DUST Search - Hasn't this game always irrefutably been pay-to-win?

Maken Tosch wrote:

ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals wrote:

Eh. I don't think the increase to milita module effectiveness will do that much. Fitting doesn't matter either since not spending any ISK or AUR would mean you'd never be able to change a fit...save for the free little bits your doled out at the start and event/newsletter rewards.

I've take that approach actually. Just recently started to skill back into logistics.

With militia modules, fitting is actually everything since militia-level stuff is generally inefficient when it comes to CPU and PG. So every little bit helps. Even with the expense of the non-starter militia stuff, the expense of those items is miniscule in comparison if you're a good player and know how to pick your battles.

A Caldari Assault can go for 3,000 ISK.
520 ISK for damage modules.
400 for shield extenders.
550 for shield rechargers.
520 for armor reps.
290 for cardiac regs.
610 for assault rifles
etc.
etc.

Let's assume you earn 150,000 ISK for match and each militia-only suit costs you 10,000 tops. You will have to die 15 times to go negative on the wallet. Most of the time, you don't even die that much if you pick your battles and go for the light-frame suits (plenty of them everywhere). I die about 8-10 times per match and my suits only cost about 8,000 ISK tops. In public matches, I can stay positive for a long time.

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ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 424	Posted - 2013.11.12 21:27:00 - [1] - Quote I mean, at some point we all must've bought some items with ISK or AUR, right? I suppose you could've just used the base, free starter fits for your entire time in Dust, but I don't think you'd be winning much of anything if you did that.
Akdhar Saif Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 72	Posted - 2013.11.12 21:29:00 - [2] - Quote I had some money left over from buying something on the PSN store so I used it on Dust. It went quickly enough and I've never really thought about buying anything else ever since. If Aesthetic Upgrades were offered for AUR I'd definitely buy something.
Fire of Prometheus DUST University Ivy League 1584	Posted - 2013.11.12 21:42:00 - [3] - Quote I bought 1 merc pack....still have 6-7k AUR left from that pack.....I use it to get the cosmetically different suits/try new stuff.....but now I have at least basic everything so it just sits there. "It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle
Gorra Snell The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 220	Posted - 2013.11.12 21:42:00 - [4] - Quote ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals wrote: I mean, at some point we all must've bought some items with ISK or AUR, right? People mean real money when they say 'pay-to-win', so ISK is irrelevant. Most players seem fairly content that the current model is more pay-to-grind-less, since all AUR items have ISK equivalents. I would posit that once FW becomes a major ISK sink, the game will become incrementally more pay-to-win since AUR gear will become the only viable way to continually run PRO gear for more players.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4921	Posted - 2013.11.12 21:43:00 - [5] - Quote It's obviously pay to win. You have to play it to win, and that requires electricity, which needs to be paid for. DUST IS CLEARLY P2W!!!11! Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 29	Posted - 2013.11.12 21:45:00 - [6] - Quote Akdhar Saif wrote: I had some money left over from buying something on the PSN store so I used it on Dust. It went quickly enough and I've never really thought about buying anything else ever since. If Aesthetic Upgrades were offered for AUR I'd definitely buy something. They were and still are. The different types of armor that you can buy with a lot of the starter kits is modeled after a specific faction or police force in the EVE Online universe. Things like Blood Raiders, Ishukone, Dren, Covenant, etc. The are all pay for basically cosmetic starter setups. I have a feeling that most of the "cosmetic" stuff in the future won't be stuff we can customize (other than maybe showing corp/alliance logos on tanks) but will be armor with paint schemes modeled after various NPC factions in the EVE Online universe. Upcoming Black Eagles stuff is the latest example.
Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 1453	Posted - 2013.11.12 21:47:00 - [7] - Quote ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals wrote: I mean, at some point we all must've bought some items with ISK or AUR, right? I suppose you could've just used the base, free starter fits for your entire time in Dust, but I don't think you'd be winning much of anything if you did that. That's not what Pay-To-Win means.... Pay-To-Win means gaining a noticable edge with real money that normal users can't match without paying real money themselves. Closed Beta Vet Reading the forums detracts from overall enjoyment of the game
crazy space 1 Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic 1985	Posted - 2013.11.12 21:56:00 - [8] - Quote This is the most terrible OP I've ever seen in my ten years on CCP forums congratz
crazy space 1 Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic 1985	Posted - 2013.11.12 21:57:00 - [9] - Quote Gorra Snell wrote: ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals wrote: I mean, at some point we all must've bought some items with ISK or AUR, right? People mean real money when they say 'pay-to-win', so ISK is irrelevant. Most players seem fairly content that the current model is more pay-to-grind-less, since all AUR items have ISK equivalents. I would posit that once FW becomes a major ISK sink, the game will become incrementally more pay-to-win since AUR gear will become the only viable way to continually run PRO gear for more players. but AUR gear will be resellable on the player market, for isk
Lv2spd2 Slow And Old 65	Posted - 2013.11.12 21:57:00 - [10] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: It's obviously pay to win. You have to play it to win, and that requires electricity, which needs to be paid for. DUST IS CLEARLY P2W!!!11! Electricity is OP. Nerf it.

MassiveNine 0uter.Heaven Proficiency V. 468	Posted - 2013.11.12 21:59:00 - [11] - Quote I bought 3 merc packs in closed beta and that was it. 60 well spent. Considering I'd spend it on another game that I may or may not get frustrated with it wasn't a big deal to me. Official DUST514 LAV Mechanic
ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 424	Posted - 2013.11.12 22:06:00 - [12] - Quote Gorra Snell wrote: ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals wrote: I mean, at some point we all must've bought some items with ISK or AUR, right? People mean real money when they say 'pay-to-win', so ISK is irrelevant. Most players seem fairly content that the current model is more pay-to-grind-less, since all AUR items have ISK equivalents. I would posit that once FW becomes a major ISK sink, the game will become incrementally more pay-to-win since AUR gear will become the only viable way to continually run PRO gear for more players. Are you implying ISK is not real currency? For shame.
VAHZZ The dyst0pian Corporation 185	Posted - 2013.11.12 22:12:00 - [13] - Quote I haven't bought a single thing in this game with real money, i have no aurum, i have no aurum merchandise except the 'burnstalk' LR and that's only because it was free. Buying with ISK doesn't mean pay to win. Of course you will need to buy in-game stuff with in-game money, want this to be all free? makes no sense. The merc with a mouth - beware of random bouts of insanity! i should make an Everything Nixon Corp
knight of 6 SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 582	Posted - 2013.11.12 22:27:00 - [14] - Quote ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals wrote: I mean, at some point we all must've bought some items with ISK or AUR, right? I suppose you could've just used the base, free starter fits for your entire time in Dust, but I don't think you'd be winning much of anything if you did that. da faq? I can say i haven't spent a cent on this game. I have proto fits and use them at my leisure. I also have 80+ million at any given time. -1 "God favors the side with the best artillery" ~ Napoleon Ko6, scout, tanker. CLOSED BETA VET
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5054	Posted - 2013.11.12 22:27:00 - [15] - Quote ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals wrote: I suppose you could've just used the base, free starter fits for your entire time in Dust, but I don't think you'd be winning much of anything if you did that. Actually, if you put some effort into it, you will be surprised how far you can go. Extremely far to be exact. I know this first hand. If you max out your core skills (dropsuit electronics, engineering, weapon operations, sharpshooter, reload, etc.) that have a broad effect across all of the racial suits, you will notice three things: 1. Fitting your starter suit will become much easier. 2. Weapon damage and accuracy dramatically increases. 3. Module effectiveness increases. Of course, skill books alone won't help. You need ACTUAL EXPERIENCE-BASED SKILL to make these militia suits extremely effective. If you know what you're doing, then you can be an effective killing machine against a proto player. As a result, there are still a number of players out there running around in militia gear tearing up everyone wearing proto gear. I know because I saw these players first hand. And when there is one such player there will be many more coming. CCP, please fix the Nova Knives. Thank you.
ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 424	Posted - 2013.11.12 22:32:00 - [16] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals wrote: I suppose you could've just used the base, free starter fits for your entire time in Dust, but I don't think you'd be winning much of anything if you did that. Actually, if you put some effort into it, you will be surprised how far you can go. Extremely far to be exact. I know this first hand. If you max out your core skills (dropsuit electronics, engineering, weapon operations, sharpshooter, reload, etc.) that have a broad effect across all of the racial suits, you will notice three things: 1. Fitting your starter suit will become much easier. 2. Weapon damage and accuracy dramatically increases. 3. Module effectiveness increases. Of course, skill books alone won't help. You need ACTUAL EXPERIENCE-BASED SKILL to make these militia suits extremely effective. If you know what you're doing, then you can be an effective killing machine against a proto player. As a result, there are still a number of players out there running around in militia gear tearing up everyone wearing proto gear. I know because I saw these players first hand. And when there is one such player there will be many more coming. Eh. I don't think the increase to milita module effectiveness will do that much. Fitting doesn't matter either since not spending any ISK or AUR would mean you'd never be able to change a fit...save for the free little bits your doled out at the start and event/newsletter rewards. I've take that approach actually. Just recently started to skill back into logistics.
Ripcord19981 KNIGHTZ OF THE ROUND 246	Posted - 2013.11.12 22:33:00 - [17] - Quote i've never bought anything from this game and i do fairly well on most battles. I can only please one person per day. Today is not ur day, tomorrow doesn't look too bright either. Turkey sammich>taco
ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 424	Posted - 2013.11.12 22:35:00 - [18] - Quote knight of 6 wrote: ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals wrote: I mean, at some point we all must've bought some items with ISK or AUR, right? I suppose you could've just used the base, free starter fits for your entire time in Dust, but I don't think you'd be winning much of anything if you did that. da faq? I can say i haven't spent a cent on this game. I have proto fits and use them at my leisure. I also have 80+ million at any given time. -1 What, are those proto fits donated to you? If not, I assume you spend ISK on them.
knight of 6 SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 582	Posted - 2013.11.12 22:40:00 - [19] - Quote ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals wrote: knight of 6 wrote: ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals wrote: I mean, at some point we all must've bought some items with ISK or AUR, right? I suppose you could've just used the base, free starter fits for your entire time in Dust, but I don't think you'd be winning much of anything if you did that. da faq? I can say i haven't spent a cent on this game. I have proto fits and use them at my leisure. I also have 80+ million at any given time. -1 What, are those proto fits donated to you? If not, I assume you spend ISK on them. no, I've never spent a cent, everything in the market costs more than that! ... see I can make awful troll posts too! "God favors the side with the best artillery" ~ Napoleon Ko6, scout, tanker. CLOSED BETA VET
8213 The Neutral Zone 679	Posted - 2013.11.12 22:44:00 - [20] - Quote Its pay-2-win. If there was no major incentive to pay for item in this game, then nobody would spend any money at all. The biggest argument is that ISK can replace AURUM. Which is not true, because SP and and ISK are two different things in this game. AURUM has to do with SP (because ISK is a infinite resource). The best example is Dropsuits. To go from Tier 3(Advanced) to Tier V(Prototype) is 2.2 MILLION SP. Why would you grind that that for 10 weeks when you can just buy it outright instead with AURUM, or use a boosters and grind for 7 weeks. I have no problem buying AURUM. I'd probably pay almost $100 for any other game. But I don't believe its ethically right to charge players in a game that doesn't work. The quality of this game is to lacking to be worthy of my money. New players have a choice in this game, grind (and only get 1000SP after you hit your cap per game), or buy AURUM... or simply give up and leave.

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5054	Posted - 2013.11.12 22:46:00 - [21] - Quote ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals wrote: Eh. I don't think the increase to milita module effectiveness will do that much. Fitting doesn't matter either since not spending any ISK or AUR would mean you'd never be able to change a fit...save for the free little bits your doled out at the start and event/newsletter rewards. I've take that approach actually. Just recently started to skill back into logistics. With militia modules, fitting is actually everything since militia-level stuff is generally inefficient when it comes to CPU and PG. So every little bit helps. Even with the expense of the non-starter militia stuff, the expense of those items is miniscule in comparison if you're a good player and know how to pick your battles. A Caldari Assault can go for 3,000 ISK. 520 ISK for damage modules. 400 for shield extenders. 550 for shield rechargers. 520 for armor reps. 290 for cardiac regs. 610 for assault rifles etc. etc. Let's assume you earn 150,000 ISK for match and each militia-only suit costs you 10,000 tops. You will have to die 15 times to go negative on the wallet. Most of the time, you don't even die that much if you pick your battles and go for the light-frame suits (plenty of them everywhere). I die about 8-10 times per match and my suits only cost about 8,000 ISK tops. In public matches, I can stay positive for a long time. CCP, please fix the Nova Knives. Thank you.
boba's fetta Operation Clone Shield 116	Posted - 2013.11.12 23:04:00 - [22] - Quote when the player market comes in people who have bought bpo's will be able to sell them. and i have a feeling there is going to be a lot of them going on the market.
ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 424	Posted - 2013.11.12 23:08:00 - [23] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals wrote: Eh. I don't think the increase to milita module effectiveness will do that much. Fitting doesn't matter either since not spending any ISK or AUR would mean you'd never be able to change a fit...save for the free little bits your doled out at the start and event/newsletter rewards. I've take that approach actually. Just recently started to skill back into logistics. With militia modules, fitting is actually everything since militia-level stuff is generally inefficient when it comes to CPU and PG. So every little bit helps. Even with the expense of the non-starter militia stuff, the expense of those items is miniscule in comparison if you're a good player and know how to pick your battles. A Caldari Assault can go for 3,000 ISK. 520 ISK for damage modules. 400 for shield extenders. 550 for shield rechargers. 520 for armor reps. 290 for cardiac regs. 610 for assault rifles etc. etc. Let's assume you earn 150,000 ISK for match and each militia-only suit costs you 10,000 tops. You will have to die 15 times to go negative on the wallet. Most of the time, you don't even die that much if you pick your battles and go for the light-frame suits (plenty of them everywhere). I die about 8-10 times per match and my suits only cost about 8,000 ISK tops. In public matches, I can stay positive for a long time. But your still paying for them. Pay-to-win is not cool, bruh. Only ones who will have my respect are those that have been playing the game for a while and have not bought a single thing in the market.
Monkey MAC killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance 968	Posted - 2013.11.12 23:17:00 - [24] - Quote I have always thought of dust as pay for experience not pay for win! If we were to have a gear based matchmaking system kt would end up pay for death! The pen is mightier than the sword The gun is mightier than both
ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 424	Posted - 2013.11.12 23:20:00 - [25] - Quote knight of 6 wrote: ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals wrote: knight of 6 wrote: ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals wrote: I mean, at some point we all must've bought some items with ISK or AUR, right? I suppose you could've just used the base, free starter fits for your entire time in Dust, but I don't think you'd be winning much of anything if you did that. da faq? I can say i haven't spent a cent on this game. I have proto fits and use them at my leisure. I also have 80+ million at any given time. -1 What, are those proto fits donated to you? If not, I assume you spend ISK on them. no, I've never spent a cent, everything in the market costs more than that! ... see I can make awful troll posts too! Go away then, tiny troll. This is a grown-up discussion with mustaches, monocles, and...marinade.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 10176	Posted - 2013.11.12 23:21:00 - [26] - Quote irrefutably? I dont think so. Richie Richard that spends 20,000 USD on this game would not have a clear cut advantage over Poorman Pennyworth at 20 USD. Richie can throw more money through his teleporter screen but his stats are not going to any higher, he will have to learn how to shoot, move, and kill people in dust 514 to make a difference, the same difference Poorman Pennyworth is able to do. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier Specialist Current Theme \\= Advanced Scrambler Rifle =// Unlocked
IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 247	Posted - 2013.11.12 23:24:00 - [27] - Quote not sure how being able to by STD level weapons or equipment that kinda sucks anyway (negligible difference to militia) is pay 2 win especially considering that all the starter fits have a god mode AR.
ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 424	Posted - 2013.11.12 23:25:00 - [28] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: irrefutably? I dont think so. Richie Richard that spends 20,000 USD on this game would not have a clear cut advantage over Poorman Pennyworth at 20 USD. Richie can throw more money through his teleporter screen but his stats are not going to any higher, he will have to learn how to shoot, move, and kill people in dust 514 to make a difference, the same difference Poorman Pennyworth is able to do. Come now, CPM man. Surely you can see that our boy Richie would have the advantage if diminutive Pennyworth spent no ISK on anything and was rolling around in the basic starter fit while Richie was putting his ISK to good use.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 10176	Posted - 2013.11.12 23:27:00 - [29] - Quote ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: irrefutably? I dont think so. Richie Richard that spends 20,000 USD on this game would not have a clear cut advantage over Poorman Pennyworth at 20 USD. Richie can throw more money through his teleporter screen but his stats are not going to any higher, he will have to learn how to shoot, move, and kill people in dust 514 to make a difference, the same difference Poorman Pennyworth is able to do. Come now, CPM man. Surely you can see that our boy Richie would have the advantage if diminutive Pennyworth spent no ISK on anything and was rolling around in the basic starter fit while Richie was putting his ISK to good use. What isk? The only source of direct isk is NPC clone sales and battle payouts. Both requiring a degree of game play of some manner to access. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier Specialist Current Theme \\= Advanced Scrambler Rifle =// Unlocked
Harpyja Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 767	Posted - 2013.11.12 23:28:00 - [30] - Quote ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals wrote: But your still paying for them. Pay-to-win is not cool, bruh. Only ones who will have my respect are those that have been playing the game for a while and have not bought a single thing in the market. I don't think you understand the unique concept in Dust where everything you use is literally your own! This isn't CoD where everything is given to you for free and the only cost of dying is your KDR. Here, it literally costs you something each time you die, unless you use BPOs, which are being removed from the market now. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32



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