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What is the CPM doing about the assault rifle?

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Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 348	Posted - 2013.11.07 13:42:00 - [1] - Quote Jenza, IWS, Kain, etc, see title. +¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13. CCP please make our decisions matter. "AR 514. Core Locus 514. Bricktank 514."
M McManus Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 224	Posted - 2013.11.07 13:52:00 - [2] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Jenza, IWS, Kain, etc, see title. From what I've read the only one that plays anymore is Kain and he's pretty awful as a heavy. So maybe the heavy will get more love...
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 348	Posted - 2013.11.07 13:52:00 - [3] - Quote Noone? Ok, I guess you dont give a ***. +¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13. CCP please make our decisions matter.* "AR 514. Core Locus 514. Bricktank 514."
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 1635	Posted - 2013.11.07 13:53:00 - [4] - Quote Nothing
Cosgar ParagonX 7474	Posted - 2013.11.07 13:58:00 - [5] - Quote Nothing because they don't work for CCP. They're just regular players like us. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 349	Posted - 2013.11.07 13:59:00 - [6] - Quote ...and exactly why do we have a CPM again? This is my point. +¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13. CCP please make our decisions matter. "AR 514. Core Locus 514. Bricktank 514."
Mortedeamor WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL The Ascendancy 669	Posted - 2013.11.07 14:03:00 - [7] - Quote M McManus wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Jenza, IWS, Kain, etc, see title. From what I've read the only one that plays anymore is Kain and he's pretty awful as a heavy. So maybe the heavy will get more love... hey plays last i saw him ina min logi witha proto smg
Dexter307 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 569	Posted - 2013.11.07 14:03:00 - [8] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: ...and exactly why do we have a CPM again? This is my point. No reason We should just get rid of the CPM IMO
Aaroniero d'Lioncourt The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 259	Posted - 2013.11.07 14:06:00 - [9] - Quote lol aren't they forum moderators?
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1766	Posted - 2013.11.07 14:07:00 - [10] - Quote What exactly is your issue with the AR? Have you seen the new weapons that are coming out? Are you dying too much from a close range high RoF high damage weapon? Are you staying inside its optimals where it is SUPPOSED to chew you to shreds?

Surt gods end Demon Ronin 1164	Posted - 2013.11.07 14:14:00 - [11] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Jenza, IWS, Kain, etc, see title. using them. ha!
Sinboto Simmons SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 1984	Posted - 2013.11.07 14:16:00 - [12] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: What exactly is your issue with the AR? Have you seen the new weapons that are coming out? Are you dying too much from a close range high RoF high damage weapon? Are you staying inside its optimals where it is SUPPOSED to chew you to shreds? Is that how it's supposed to work? I had no idea looking at it now. Sinboto - The True Blood Minja. Forum Warrior level 1 Fix my class already
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 694	Posted - 2013.11.07 14:17:00 - [13] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: ...and exactly why do we have a CPM again? This is my point. Basically what the CPMs do is take player feedback, suggestions, problem, etc. and relay it back to CCP. To put if very simply they test the game and relay the problems back to CCP. There there Mr. Scout and Ms. Heavy, don't cry You'll still be useful in my eyes
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 352	Posted - 2013.11.07 14:17:00 - [14] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: What exactly is your issue with the AR? Have you seen the new weapons that are coming out? Are you dying too much from a close range high RoF high damage weapon? Are you staying inside its optimals where it is SUPPOSED to chew you to shreds? Is this a troll post? Better report you if it is. +¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13. CCP please make our decisions matter. "AR 514. Core Locus 514. Bricktank 514."
Lightning xVx R 0 N 1 N 322	Posted - 2013.11.07 14:19:00 - [15] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: What exactly is your issue with the AR? Have you seen the new weapons that are coming out? Are you dying too much from a close range high RoF high damage weapon? Are you staying inside its optimals where it is SUPPOSED to chew you to shreds? The only thing that is supposed "chew you to shreds" are weapons based on CQC, the AR is a medium range weapon. CCP ****** that part up.
PEW JACKSON s i n g u l a r i t y 95	Posted - 2013.11.07 14:22:00 - [16] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: What exactly is your issue with the AR? Have you seen the new weapons that are coming out? Are you dying too much from a close range high RoF high damage weapon? Are you staying inside its optimals where it is SUPPOSED to chew you to shreds? Considering it has a 40m optimal and an effective range out to 120m.... What do you suppose we all do? It chews through armor just as well, if not better than SMGs in their optimals. It can melt LR users faster in their own optimals with no overheat. Hmg is a huge airsoft gun compared to the AR. Ascr loses in dps due to it's dispersion(WTF???) Scr Rifles meh, there are exceptions, but they're not in a great place. Same with scram pistols Mass Driver users will be dead before the 2nd shot gets fired against an AR. Shotgun users get face raped if they miss more than 2 shots against the all mighty AR. Don't believe it? Find the nearest proto suited dmg modded AR scrub and see how you die. Btw I've seen the new weaps that are coming. Chances are AR scrubs that die to them will cry NERF!!! Then after a few CCP hammer swings, we'll be playing AR 514 again. If anyone's left.
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2021	Posted - 2013.11.07 14:37:00 - [17] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Jenza, IWS, Kain, etc, see title. For your information, i do play. Didnt much for a while but doing my cap again now. Now, aside from playing, reading the forums and gathering players feeling and reporting it to devs not much i can do. Unlike what some seem to think, i dont go to Wolfman and scream "Nerf AR !" or "Buff my suit !" Still, that doesnt prevent me from having an opinion. And i think it is too good at the moment. 1.6 made it even worse as new HD emphasizes a lot its absence of recoil and high rof. In my opinion, its damage output should be toned down (not nerfed to hell..) and its damage fall off over distance be more noticeable. The coming range changes may help even though when i compare the new numbers with the current ones i dont see much of a difference. Overall, i think all rifles (SR, smgs and the coming CR\RR as well) should have their damage toned down a bit now. (starting with the 10% uprising buff ). Would also make the HMG feel better than it is now without actually tweaking it. (no i dont play as a heavy,) And btw, i couldnt agree more with the "Core Locus 514" part of your sig. Those need to be toned down as well. Maybe rise their nanite cluster consumption to avoid spamming. decrease the explosion radius and\or damage a tad . Revamp their efficiency vs shield to make them less over-efficient. (yes i do use core locus) This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 354	Posted - 2013.11.07 14:44:00 - [18] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Jenza, IWS, Kain, etc, see title. For your information, i do play. Didnt much for a while but doing my cap again now. Now, aside from playing, reading the forums and gathering players feeling and reporting it to devs not much i can do. Unlike what some seem to think, i dont go to Wolfman and scream "Nerf AR !" or "Buff my suit !" Still, that doesnt prevent me from having an opinion. And i think it is too good at the moment. 1.6 made it even worse as new HD emphasizes a lot its absence of recoil and high rof. In my opinion, its damage output should be toned down (not nerfed to hell..) and its damage fall off over distance be more noticeable. The coming range changes may help even though when i compare the new numbers with the current ones i dont see much of a difference. Overall, i think all rifles (SR, smgs and the coming CR\RR as well) should have their damage toned down a bit now. (starting with the 10% uprising buff ). Would also make the HMG feel better than it is now without actually tweaking it. (no i dont play as a heavy,) And btw, i couldnt agree more with the "Core Locus 514" part of your sig. Those need to be toned down as well. Maybe rise their nanite cluster consumption to avoid spamming. decrease the explosion radius and\or damage a tad . Revamp their efficiency vs shield to make them less over-efficient. (yes i do use core locus) I like you. +¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13. CCP please make our decisions matter. "AR 514. Core Locus 514. Bricktank 514."
Cosgar ParagonX 7480	Posted - 2013.11.07 14:45:00 - [19] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Jenza, IWS, Kain, etc, see title. For your information, i do play. Didnt much for a while but doing my cap again now. Now, aside from playing, reading the forums and gathering players feeling and reporting it to devs not much i can do. Unlike what some seem to think, i dont go to Wolfman and scream "Nerf AR !" or "Buff my suit !" Still, that doesnt prevent me from having an opinion. And i think it is too good at the moment. 1.6 made it even worse as new HD emphasizes a lot its absence of recoil and high rof. In my opinion, its damage output should be toned down (not nerfed to hell..) and its damage fall off over distance be more noticeable. The coming range changes may help even though when i compare the new numbers with the current ones i dont see much of a difference. Overall, i think all rifles (SR, smgs and the coming CR\RR as well) should have their damage toned down a bit now. (starting with the 10% uprising buff ). Would also make the HMG feel better than it is now without actually tweaking it. (no i dont play as a heavy,) And btw, i couldnt agree more with the "Core Locus 514" part of your sig. Those need to be toned down as well. Maybe rise their nanite cluster consumption to avoid spamming. decrease the explosion radius and\or damage a tad . Revamp their efficiency vs shield to make them less over-efficient. (yes i do use core locus) I can't help but get the impression that almost everything is balaced based on bad hit detection. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Himiko Kuronaga The Generals EoN. 2204	Posted - 2013.11.07 14:46:00 - [20] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Jenza, IWS, Kain, etc, see title. For your information, i do play. Didnt much for a while but doing my cap again now. Now, aside from playing, reading the forums and gathering players feeling and reporting it to devs not much i can do. Unlike what some seem to think, i dont go to Wolfman and scream "Nerf AR !" or "Buff my suit !" Still, that doesnt prevent me from having an opinion. And i think it is too good at the moment. 1.6 made it even worse as new HD emphasizes a lot its absence of recoil and high rof. In my opinion, its damage output should be toned down (not nerfed to hell..) and its damage fall off over distance be more noticeable. The coming range changes may help even though when i compare the new numbers with the current ones i dont see much of a difference. Overall, i think all rifles (SR, smgs and the coming CR\RR as well) should have their damage toned down a bit now. (starting with the 10% uprising buff ). Would also make the HMG feel better than it is now without actually tweaking it. (no i dont play as a heavy,) And btw, i couldnt agree more with the "Core Locus 514" part of your sig. Those need to be toned down as well. Maybe rise their nanite cluster consumption to avoid spamming. decrease the explosion radius and\or damage a tad . Revamp their efficiency vs shield to make them less over-efficient. (yes i do use core locus) I've been hearing that grenade damage was only buffed to its current levels as a temporary nod to hit detection problem that have already been solved. Shouldn't the damage buff on those simply be reversed? And why not just get rid of the headshot damage multiplier for grenades? My understanding is that is the primary reason there are so many one hit kills with locus grenades right now.

Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1766	Posted - 2013.11.07 14:46:00 - [21] - Quote PEW JACKSON wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: What exactly is your issue with the AR? Have you seen the new weapons that are coming out? Are you dying too much from a close range high RoF high damage weapon? Are you staying inside its optimals where it is SUPPOSED to chew you to shreds? Considering it has a 40m optimal and an effective range out to 120m.... What do you suppose we all do? It chews through armor just as well, if not better than SMGs in their optimals. It can melt LR users faster in their own optimals with no overheat. Hmg is a huge airsoft gun compared to the AR. Ascr loses in dps due to it's dispersion(WTF???) Scr Rifles meh, there are exceptions, but they're not in a great place. Same with scram pistols Mass Driver users will be dead before the 2nd shot gets fired against an AR. Shotgun users get face raped if they miss more than 2 shots against the all mighty AR. Don't believe it? Find the nearest proto suited dmg modded AR scrub and see how you die. Btw I've seen the new weaps that are coming. Chances are AR scrubs that die to them will cry NERF!!! Then after a few CCP hammer swings, we'll be playing AR 514 again. If anyone's left. If there is an issue I have with the AR itself, yes it is dispersion. But frankly, as a player who has figured out how to pick engagement easily outside of the 50m circle on my map with weapons that can outperform against the AR I have little sympathy for your DPS arguments. If you tone down the DPS on the AR much more than 5-10%, then just outside their falloff EVERY OTHER rifle become completely dominant over them. Inside their optimals they are king. Changing it to have slightly more dispersion would be enough to mechanically alter DPS. At about 50% of their falloff they have pretty good sustained damage compared to other weapons. However, any AR but a duvolle/TAC with damage mods cannot compete with the lasers at its 70m optimals. The only other situation where your argument is more valid than not is in PC where lag favors high damage, close proximity, and reliably high RoF weapons. That is NOT A STAT ISSUE, that is a hardware/performance issue.
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2023	Posted - 2013.11.07 14:46:00 - [22] - Quote PEW JACKSON wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: What exactly is your issue with the AR? Have you seen the new weapons that are coming out? Are you dying too much from a close range high RoF high damage weapon? Are you staying inside its optimals where it is SUPPOSED to chew you to shreds? Considering it has a 40m optimal and an effective range out to 120m.... What do you suppose we all do? It chews through armor just as well, if not better than SMGs in their optimals. It can melt LR users faster in their own optimals with no overheat. Hmg is a huge airsoft gun compared to the AR. Ascr loses in dps due to it's dispersion(WTF???) Scr Rifles meh, there are exceptions, but they're not in a great place. Same with scram pistols Mass Driver users will be dead before the 2nd shot gets fired against an AR. Shotgun users get face raped if they miss more than 2 shots against the all mighty AR. Don't believe it? Find the nearest proto suited dmg modded AR scrub and see how you die. Btw I've seen the new weaps that are coming. Chances are AR scrubs that die to them will cry NERF!!! Then after a few CCP hammer swings, we'll be playing AR 514 again. If anyone's left. That's the key. If you watch the stats for the next 2 ARs, the higher the range, the bigger the DPS (for a same variant), And there's a lot to bet the bigger the recoil. In theory, it's a pattern that could work. But when combined with aim assist\hit detection\dispersion, a number that seems fine may not be when you're on the BF. Having the AR be king of ARs in close quarter doesnt strike me as odd. Having it not even fear lasers, does. So yeah. I'd be inclined to have an overall damage decrease of automatic weapons as i said before (except HMG) to see if that helps the rifle vs everything else debate. And then, before tweaking numbers among different types of rifles, i'd wait and see how the range changes and new rifles affect the rifles dynamic on the field. Which pains me as i'm currently stuck with the ASCR that i probably love as much as i hate it.... This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !
Coleman Gray GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 908	Posted - 2013.11.07 14:49:00 - [23] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: What exactly is your issue with the AR? Have you seen the new weapons that are coming out? Are you dying too much from a close range high RoF high damage weapon? Are you staying inside its optimals where it is SUPPOSED to chew you to shreds? Problem with the AR is that it's not a close range weapon, it's a close-long range high ROF high damage weapon If Preparation is half of the battle and knowing is the other half, Then there is no need to fight.
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 354	Posted - 2013.11.07 14:49:00 - [24] - Quote I agree with the above posters that most weapons seem to be balanced wrt bad performance. This patch just became a ketchup effect of OP instakill weapon, which ruins the game for me and many others... +¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13. CCP please make our decisions matter. "AR 514. Core Locus 514. Bricktank 514."
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2024	Posted - 2013.11.07 14:58:00 - [25] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: I agree with the above posters that most weapons seem to be balanced wrt bad performance. This patch just became a ketchup effect of OP instakill weapon, which ruins the game for me and many others... Dont blame the patch. I mean, it gets me frustrated as well in some situations. But overall, finally having an effective hit detection is good. Now there's just a need to adjust data accordingly. IF we think about it, it makes sense that a good HD suddenly makes automatic weapons better. SMGs are pretty beasty as well now. HMG with the slight heavy buff are ripping me off now compared to how weak most heavy\hmg were in 1.5. So yeah, it's frustrating to get insta dropped by AR (and to be fair, i insta drop people with my ASCR as well.) but it's a huge improvement to the game that makes it so. I like it better this way to be honest : fixing thing because game got technically better and not the other way around. This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !
dustwaffle The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 632	Posted - 2013.11.07 15:02:00 - [26] - Quote Cosgar wrote: I can't help but get the impression that almost everything is balaced based on bad hit detection. Not empty quoting.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1766	Posted - 2013.11.07 15:08:00 - [27] - Quote I dunno guys, I've maybe only put about 4-5 hours into the 1.6 patch and have mostly been messing around with a 500 eHP logi suit with a scrambler rifle and pistol. and a commando (850 eHP) with a laser/AScr/SLauncher combo. All of those suits are normally scanner fit, so I'm seeing my enemies before they see me. I just can't say that my TTK/TTdeath experience is matching how you guys are describing. I guess it is very possible that the squads I've been with have had some AR dominators that were doing most of the work...
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2024	Posted - 2013.11.07 15:09:00 - [28] - Quote dustwaffle wrote: Cosgar wrote: I can't help but get the impression that almost everything is balaced based on bad hit detection. Not empty quoting. That's not wrong. 10% post uprising damage buff. aim assist. Lower scout speed. overall reduced movement speed nerf over time. HMG health debuff (the very old debuff) etc.. That's why i maintain that this patch is a major good new. As the HD is now very fine imo, the next balance pass will be done on healthier fondations. This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 357	Posted - 2013.11.07 15:13:00 - [29] - Quote I just feel that I kill stuff too fast with Toxin AR and ScR. Maybe that is good for me, but it is not good for the game, since it it is supposed to be a shooter with High Hp, strafing and tracking skills. +¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13. CCP please make our decisions matter. "AR 514. Core Locus 514. Bricktank 514."
low genius The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 842	Posted - 2013.11.07 15:15:00 - [30] - Quote in the first cpm election... vote pirate

Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2026	Posted - 2013.11.07 15:18:00 - [31] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: I just feel that I kill stuff too fast with Toxin AR and ScR. Maybe that is good for me, but it is not good for the game, since it it is supposed to be a shooter with High Hp, strafing and tracking skills. I wont say otherwise. the 10% uprising buff needs to go for rifles\smgs as a first step. might end up being a good balance move across the board regarding rifles\other weapons dynamic. Would love to have more feedback regarding taking this to the devs as a possible first step hotfix. This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 357	Posted - 2013.11.07 15:21:00 - [32] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: I just feel that I kill stuff too fast with Toxin AR and ScR. Maybe that is good for me, but it is not good for the game, since it it is supposed to be a shooter with High Hp, strafing and tracking skills. I wont say otherwise. the 10% uprising buff needs to go for rifles\smgs as a first step. might end up being a good balance move across the board regarding rifles\other weapons dynamic. Would love to have more feedback regarding taking this to the devs as a possible first step hotfix. Please make a name list or something. I will sign it immidiately for you. I bet most dust players will also do it. +¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13. CCP please make our decisions matter. "AR 514. Core Locus 514. Bricktank 514."
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2029	Posted - 2013.11.07 15:29:00 - [33] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: I just feel that I kill stuff too fast with Toxin AR and ScR. Maybe that is good for me, but it is not good for the game, since it it is supposed to be a shooter with High Hp, strafing and tracking skills. I wont say otherwise. the 10% uprising buff needs to go for rifles\smgs as a first step. might end up being a good balance move across the board regarding rifles\other weapons dynamic. Would love to have more feedback regarding taking this to the devs as a possible first step hotfix. Please make a name list or something. I will sign it immidiately for you. I bet most dust players will also do it. No need, i lurk around enough ^^ Also, i already mentionned to Wolf many players were "surprised" by the lower TTK. Said i would keep lurking and discussing it. Wolf said they didnt get that feeling in internal play test so he is gonna play online himself to forge its own opinion. And he'll probably lurk down here as well This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 7450	Posted - 2013.11.07 15:30:00 - [34] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: I just feel that I kill stuff too fast with Toxin AR and ScR. Maybe that is good for me, but it is not good for the game, since it it is supposed to be a shooter with High Hp, strafing and tracking skills. I wont say otherwise. the 10% uprising buff needs to go for rifles\smgs as a first step. might end up being a good balance move across the board regarding rifles\other weapons dynamic. Would love to have more feedback regarding taking this to the devs as a possible first step hotfix. Please make a name list or something. I will sign it immidiately for you. I bet most dust players will also do it. No need, i lurk around enough ^^ Also, i already mentionned to Wolf many players were "surprised" by the lower TTK. Said i would keep lurking and discussing it. Wolf said they didnt get that feeling in internal play test so he is gonna play online himself to forge its own opinion. And he'll probably lurk down here as well Of course they didn't get that impression in internal testing when half their shots are missing because of bad aim
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2033	Posted - 2013.11.07 15:39:00 - [35] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Of course they didn't get that impression in internal testing when half their shots are missing because of bad aim THAT is exactly what i said to him . This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1766	Posted - 2013.11.07 15:40:00 - [36] - Quote Could we get a little more technical?: If we were to decide a 'paper' baseline HP:DPS (TTK) ratio at the STD skill/suit level what would you guys decide it should be? That's what we are talking about right? Also, what do you guys think the data has suits scaling up to on paper. If you can fit 2x the tank on a PRO suit while also doing 50% more DPS and everyone else can do that that means TTK goes up by 1/3rd (against like PRO fits), against the STD fits it drops by about 1/3rd. The big disparity is that the STD loadout shooting the PRO loadout means that STD TTK vs. the PRO is 2x as long as STD TTK vs. another STD and 3x longer than it takes for the PRO to kill the STD. This means that in order to overcome his stat disadvantage, the STD fit player has to be 3x as efficient in hitting his target, using shield recharges, dodging rounds, utilizing reloads, etc. as the PRO fit players. With those kinds of multipliers, you can see that as you make a STD vs. STD base TTK much more than 2 seconds, at least with the model's rate of scaling (more HP/damage for PRO suits) you really start to reward the kind of 'handicap allowance' that PRO suits/weapons give you. For balance two core design questions would be: 1) What is a good STD vs. STD TTK. 2) How do you best scale the advantages of skill to reward SP investment, but not cripple the usefulness of STD gear? IOW, what should STD vs. STD/ PRO vs. PRO/ and STD vs PRO / PRO vs. STD TTK all be? 3) Should we be balancing TTK for 1v1 or for other combat models?
Vell0cet Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 514	Posted - 2013.11.07 15:40:00 - [37] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: I just feel that I kill stuff too fast with Toxin AR and ScR. Maybe that is good for me, but it is not good for the game, since it it is supposed to be a shooter with High Hp, strafing and tracking skills. I wont say otherwise. the 10% uprising buff needs to go for rifles\smgs as a first step imo. might end up being a good balance move across the board regarding rifles\other weapons dynamic. Would love to have more feedback regarding taking this to the devs as a possible first step hotfix. +1. I agree completely with everything you've stated in this thread. I'm happy HD has been fixed, and you're absolutely right about the necessary balance changes to compensate. This needs to happen ASAP (hotfix). This is the worst DUST has felt since 1.3. I'm running cheap suits only right now because the expensive stuff is not worth running in 1.6. Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2033	Posted - 2013.11.07 15:46:00 - [38] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: Could we get a little more technical?: If we were to decide a 'paper' baseline HP:DPS (TTK) ratio at the STD skill/suit level what would you guys decide it should be? That's what we are talking about right? Also, what do you guys think the data has suits scaling up to on paper. If you can fit 2x the tank on a PRO suit while also doing 50% more DPS and everyone else can do that that means TTK goes up by 1/3rd (against like PRO fits), against the STD fits it drops by about 1/3rd. The big disparity is that the STD loadout shooting the PRO loadout means that STD TTK vs. the PRO is 2x as long as STD TTK vs. another STD and 3x longer than it takes for the PRO to kill the STD. This means that in order to overcome his stat disadvantage, the STD fit player has to be 3x as efficient in hitting his target, using shield recharges, dodging rounds, utilizing reloads, etc. as the PRO fit players. With those kinds of multipliers, you can see that as you make a STD vs. STD base TTK much more than 2 seconds, at least with the model's rate of scaling (more HP/damage for PRO suits) you really start to reward the kind of 'handicap allowance' that PRO suits/weapons give you. For balance two core design questions would be: 1) What is a good STD vs. STD TTK. 2) How do you best scale the advantages of skill to reward SP investment, but not cripple the usefulness of STD gear? IOW, what should STD vs. STD/ PRO vs. PRO/ and STD vs PRO / PRO vs. STD TTK all be? 3) Should we be balancing TTK for 1v1 or for other combat models? You lost me there pal That would deserve an entirely different topic to discuss it This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !
Thumb Green Novashift 502	Posted - 2013.11.07 15:46:00 - [39] - Quote PEW JACKSON wrote: Considering it has a 40m optimal and an effective range out to 120m. It's effective range is 65 meters. Anyone that dies to the AR passed that range was already low health and stayed out in the open too long or are being shot at by multiple people. PEW JACKSON wrote: Btw I've seen the new weaps that are coming. Chances are AR scrubs that die to them will cry NERF!!! Then after a few CCP hammer swings, we'll be playing AR 514 again. If anyone's left. But the new weapons are AR's and the the people crying to nerf them will be the same people crying to nerf the current AR. The problem with the AR as well as every other weapon is that they are all balanced around short range combat. With exception to the forge gun and sniper rifle there is no medium range and there is most certainly no such thing as long range not even with the sniper rifle; the damn thing can't even shoot beyond 500 meters and it's a freaking rail gun for christ's sake. Never mind the president, let's overgrow the government.
Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis 2084	Posted - 2013.11.07 15:47:00 - [40] - Quote M McManus wrote: From what I've read the only one that plays anymore is Kain and he's pretty awful as a heavy. So maybe the heavy will get more love... Nova Knife is playing again.

Krom Ganesh Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 580	Posted - 2013.11.07 15:51:00 - [41] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: Could we get a little more technical?: If we were to decide a 'paper' baseline HP:DPS (TTK) ratio at the STD skill/suit level what would you guys decide it should be? That's what we are talking about right? Also, what do you guys think the data has suits scaling up to on paper. If you can fit 2x the tank on a PRO suit while also doing 50% more DPS and everyone else can do that that means TTK goes up by 1/3rd (against like PRO fits), against the STD fits it drops by about 1/3rd. The big disparity is that the STD loadout shooting the PRO loadout means that STD TTK vs. the PRO is 2x as long as STD TTK vs. another STD and 3x longer than it takes for the PRO to kill the STD. This means that in order to overcome his stat disadvantage, the STD fit player has to be 3x as efficient in hitting his target, using shield recharges, dodging rounds, utilizing reloads, etc. as the PRO fit players. With those kinds of multipliers, you can see that as you make a STD vs. STD base TTK much more than 2 seconds, at least with the model's rate of scaling (more HP/damage for PRO suits) you really start to reward the kind of 'handicap allowance' that PRO suits/weapons give you. For balance two core design questions would be: 1) What is a good STD vs. STD TTK. 2) How do you best scale the advantages of skill to reward SP investment, but not cripple the usefulness of STD gear? IOW, what should STD vs. STD/ PRO vs. PRO/ and STD vs PRO / PRO vs. STD TTK all be? 3) Should we be balancing TTK for 1v1 or for other combat models? Or we could this. And then just need to decide TTK for a single tier.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4139	Posted - 2013.11.07 15:55:00 - [42] - Quote In other news if CPM doesn't push your agenda, they're doing nothing. *Oculus Felis Semper Vigilant* *Beta Vet* *Level 4 Forum Warrior*
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 357	Posted - 2013.11.07 15:58:00 - [43] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: In other news if CPM doesn't push your agenda, they're doing nothing. That is the job of the CPM, to push player's complaints and worries to ccp. +¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13. CCP please make our decisions matter. "AR 514. Core Locus 514. Bricktank 514."
Flix Keptick Red Star. EoN. 1236	Posted - 2013.11.07 16:01:00 - [44] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: PEW JACKSON wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: What exactly is your issue with the AR? Have you seen the new weapons that are coming out? Are you dying too much from a close range high RoF high damage weapon? Are you staying inside its optimals where it is SUPPOSED to chew you to shreds? Considering it has a 40m optimal and an effective range out to 120m.... What do you suppose we all do? It chews through armor just as well, if not better than SMGs in their optimals. It can melt LR users faster in their own optimals with no overheat. Hmg is a huge airsoft gun compared to the AR. Ascr loses in dps due to it's dispersion(WTF???) Scr Rifles meh, there are exceptions, but they're not in a great place. Same with scram pistols Mass Driver users will be dead before the 2nd shot gets fired against an AR. Shotgun users get face raped if they miss more than 2 shots against the all mighty AR. Don't believe it? Find the nearest proto suited dmg modded AR scrub and see how you die. Btw I've seen the new weaps that are coming. Chances are AR scrubs that die to them will cry NERF!!! Then after a few CCP hammer swings, we'll be playing AR 514 again. If anyone's left. If there is an issue I have with the AR itself, yes it is dispersion. But frankly, as a player who has figured out how to pick engagement easily outside of the 50m circle on my map with weapons that can outperform against the AR I have little sympathy for your DPS arguments. If you tone down the DPS on the AR much more than 5-10%, then just outside their falloff EVERY OTHER rifle become completely dominant over them. Inside their optimals they are king. Changing it to have slightly more dispersion would be enough to mechanically alter DPS. At about 50% of their falloff they have pretty good sustained damage compared to other weapons. However, any AR but a duvolle/TAC with damage mods cannot compete with the lasers at its 70m optimals. The only other situation where your argument is more valid than not is in PC where lag favors high damage, close proximity, and reliably high RoF weapons. That is NOT A STAT ISSUE, that is a hardware/performance issue. That's the point, ever heard of diversity? An ar SHOULD be beaten by other weapons at longer ranges (if those weapons are designed for longer ranges). "Please don't" GÿåForum warrior lvl.1Gÿå
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1766	Posted - 2013.11.07 16:08:00 - [45] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: You lost me there pal That would deserve an entirely different topic to discuss it BAH! Where did I lose you? My point is that this is a TTK thread. What SHOULD be a good TTK for these different suit vs. suit combinations? If you take your militia AR and are looking at a militia starter suit standing still like a dolt, how long should it take to kill him with 100% accuracy? Whatever this number is, it would then have to take into account, more or less the reality of combat. To what extent could he move to mitigate your accuracy? To what extent would YOUR moving reduce your own accuracy? To what extent could/should latency reduce weapon effectiveness? Let's say you pick 1.5 seconds as the baseline for MLT AR killing MLT suit with 100% accuracy. If HIS movement reduces your accuracy by 25% and your own movement reduces it by 25% then this stacks as making you 56% of original effectiveness. This then makes TTK in this scenario 2.7 seconds. Now give him a PRO suit with 2x more HP, and your TTK doubles to >5 seconds, w/o modifying for him possibly being faster or getting in a shield recharge or having enough of a window to be getting logi reps. Now you then have to keep in mind that different weapons reward accuracy different along with applying the range and 'speed' and of your dps (burst or sustained) differently. So can we go there? How long should it take to kill a normal strafing MLT suit with a MLT rifle for a person with average accuracy?
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4139	Posted - 2013.11.07 16:44:00 - [46] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Cat Merc wrote: In other news if CPM doesn't push your agenda, they're doing nothing. That is the job of the CPM, to push player's complaints and worries to ccp. But it's YOUR agenda. I could want to nerf scouts, and since the CPM won't make CCP do it, then they're doing nothing? *Oculus Felis Semper Vigilant* *Beta Vet* *Level 4 Forum Warrior*
Heinrich Jagerblitzen D3LTA FORC3 1013	Posted - 2013.11.07 17:44:00 - [47] - Quote M McManus wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Jenza, IWS, Kain, etc, see title. From what I've read the only one that plays anymore is Kain and he's pretty awful as a heavy. So maybe the heavy will get more love... Let's see.....2000-3000 PCU average, 6 individual CPM members. The chances of running into one of us are extremely slim, and that probability drops to zero if you don't run pubs, or aren't one of the PC corps we belong to or ring for. That probability also increases to 100% if you simply send us a mail with a time and chat channel where we can find you to squad up. Caz and Jenza are the only two CPM members to go completely inactive for a stretch in the summer, but due to RL responsibilities and a lack of being given anything to work on by CCP. In other words - the only people believing this "CPM doesnt play Dust" bullshit are those incapable of doing basic math, the idiots that will believe anything posted on the internet BY those that are incapable of doing basic math, or those too lazy or stubborn to actually invite us to a squad sometime. I hope no one in this thread falls into these categories. I play every single day, give me a poke and I'll happily squad up and you can see for yourself. Quote: BAH! Where did I lose you? My point is that this is a TTK thread. What SHOULD be a good TTK for these different suit vs. suit combinations? If you take your militia AR and are looking at a militia starter suit standing still like a dolt, how long should it take to kill him with 100% accuracy? TTK is totally relative - I'm fine with it being extremely low if you're using your weapon properly at the right range. I see nothing wrong with rapid takedowns of shield tanked suits with scrambler rifles at 80m, or quick blaps at point blank with the shotgun, or second and a half deaths at 30 m with an AR on a stationary target. This should be a tactical game, where positioning, flanking, and weapon usage matter more than individual twitch skill. Quote: Now give him a PRO suit with 2x more HP, and your TTK doubles to >5 seconds, w/o modifying for him possibly being faster or getting in a shield recharge or having enough of a window to be getting logi reps. THIS is where we get to the crux of the problem. As far as what I'm pushing for as a CPM member - I'd much rather have CCP rebalance suits and weapons to eliminate this major design problem of higher tiers = more raw power (or as many of you like to call it, "Tiericide.") It took years for CCP to weed this problem out of EVE Online - only to inject it right back into Dust. Instead of obsessing over the minutia of TTK figures, I'd rather the communite unite and collectively push CCP to redesign suits and weapons so that higher tiers enable specialization, not an easier beatdown. Alternative, if CCP is too stubborn to go to this much work, at very least I think its time we seriously considered banning proto (and possibly advanced) gear from public contract matches, especially now that we'll have two "hardcore" game modes with FW and PC giving players plenty of competitive places to use their best gear. This would give younger players an easier foothold into the game and grow the community much faster than it does today.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1766	Posted - 2013.11.07 18:05:00 - [48] - Quote Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote: Quote: Now give him a PRO suit with 2x more HP, and your TTK doubles to >5 seconds, w/o modifying for him possibly being faster or getting in a shield recharge or having enough of a window to be getting logi reps. THIS is where we get to the crux of the problem. As far as what I'm pushing for as a CPM member - I'd much rather have CCP rebalance suits and weapons to eliminate this major design problem of higher tiers = more raw power (or as many of you like to call it, "Tiericide.") It took years for CCP to weed this problem out of EVE Online - only to inject it right back into Dust. Instead of obsessing over the minutia of TTK figures, I'd rather the communite unite and collectively push CCP to redesign suits and weapons so that higher tiers enable specialization, not an easier beatdown. Alternative, if CCP is too stubborn to go to this much work, at very least I think its time we seriously considered banning proto (and possibly advanced) gear from public contract matches, especially now that we'll have two "hardcore" game modes with FW and PC giving players plenty of competitive places to use their best gear. This would give younger players an easier foothold into the game and grow the community much faster than it does today. Huah! finally, someone wants to actually talk about the problem constructively! So if trying to design around a reasonable baseline TTK is not what we want to do, and you are proposing 'specialization' as the alternative to overpowered upgrading, then we have to describe concretely what is acceptable specialization. If we DON'T mean 'categorically superiorior TTK' across all categories then specialization has to be well defined as something other than superior TTK. Also, if 'specialization' is the end-state of our hypothetical design, then are we saying that players should more or less be penalized for generalizing, and/or for not choosing the right specialization for whatever context they are in? If so, how badly should they be penalized for how poorly they choose? How much SP should be dedicated to effective specializations? We should recognize that these are the very complicated kinds of design questions that get really nuanced, difficult to integrate into the many game systems that exist, plan out, and bring to fruition as CCP is unfolding this thing. They can put feelers out there for CPM input, and have ideas in mind for end-states, but a lot of the answers to the above questions don't have a lot of objective answers. Short sighted rage posts along the lines of "TTK IS TOO SHORT" or "THIS IS AN EFFING TRACKING SHOOTER! WTF!" doesn't really give credit to the difficulty inherent in designing a solution to these questions.
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 364	Posted - 2013.11.07 19:37:00 - [49] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Cat Merc wrote: In other news if CPM doesn't push your agenda, they're doing nothing. That is the job of the CPM, to push player's complaints and worries to ccp. But it's YOUR agenda. I could want to nerf scouts, and since the CPM won't make CCP do it, then they're doing nothing? When I talk about AR I mean AR and ScR right now, possibly RR and CR. +¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13. CCP please make our decisions matter. "AR 514. Core Locus 514. Bricktank 514."
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2052	Posted - 2013.11.08 00:17:00 - [50] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Cat Merc wrote: In other news if CPM doesn't push your agenda, they're doing nothing. That is the job of the CPM, to push player's complaints and worries to ccp. But it's YOUR agenda. I could want to nerf scouts, and since the CPM won't make CCP do it, then they're doing nothing? Except we dont push stuff coming from a single individual. the whole point is to try and mix our own experience with community feedback and dev talks. This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !

Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 2311	Posted - 2013.11.08 00:20:00 - [51] - Quote Mortedeamor wrote: M McManus wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Jenza, IWS, Kain, etc, see title. From what I've read the only one that plays anymore is Kain and he's pretty awful as a heavy. So maybe the heavy will get more love... hey plays last i saw him ina min logi witha proto smg I saw him last week in a medium Amarr suit with an AR, poor guy went 5-8 Im not drunk, the planet just happens to be especially wobbly today.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 2093	Posted - 2013.11.08 00:34:00 - [52] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: (Stuff about AR's and the CPM) Personally, my biggest gripe with the AR is the kick being bugged (or at very least, poorly implemented) and wolfman refusing to acknowledge it. What I mean by this is : Kick is exponential based on time firing, not based per bullet. IE: A bullet fired at the beggining of the clip will have significantly less kick than one fired after a few seconds of steady fring. This means that anyone who is smart enough to know that you should always be burst firing, is almost completely unaffected by any kick worth mentioning. Whereas anyone who just holds the trigger and goes full auto, sees a massive amount of kick in the last 15 rounds or so of their clip. It makes no sense, and defintely contributes to the "AR EZ MODE" impressions people get. That is the one change I'd personally make to ARs before even touching the damage or range. I'm also in the camp that the TTK has gone a little fubar and could use some looking at. But, in regards to your actual question : The CPM is pretty much doing nothing about AR's. We've flat out told CCP on NUMEROUS occasions to take balance feedback from the main forums FIRST and then come to us if they need a filter for all the badposting. Balance isn't our job as a collective council, and aside from us raising red flags and saying "OH GOD THIS IS GOING TO BE HORRIBLE" we've tried as best as we can to keep our collective noses out of it, and to tell them to make devposts asking for feedback on whatever. Spectral Clone wrote: When I talk about AR I mean AR and ScR right now, possibly RR and CR. Though, if you want to talk about problems... Just wait until the CR hits. (Remember when the breach SMG was king? Yeah, it's gonna be that all over again, but with more range) For all intents and purposes the CR is pretty much an SMG with more accuracy and range. Rail rifle is going to be entirely underwhelming or hilariously good. However, aside from telling CCP when they first told us the stats "Yeah, CR is going to be OP as hell", they haven't been told from our end how to adjust them. Like said above. We urged them to post the stats and get peoples' thoughts from the general public.


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