DUST Search - What is the CPM doing about the assault rifle?

Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote:

Quote:

Now give him a PRO suit with 2x more HP, and your TTK doubles to >5 seconds, w/o modifying for him possibly being faster or getting in a shield recharge or having enough of a window to be getting logi reps.

THIS is where we get to the crux of the problem. As far as what I'm pushing for as a CPM member - I'd much rather have CCP rebalance suits and weapons to eliminate this major design problem of higher tiers = more raw power (or as many of you like to call it, "Tiericide.") It took years for CCP to weed this problem out of EVE Online - only to inject it right back into Dust. Instead of obsessing over the minutia of TTK figures, I'd rather the communite unite and collectively push CCP to redesign suits and weapons so that higher tiers enable specialization, not an easier beatdown.

Alternative, if CCP is too stubborn to go to this much work, at very least I think its time we seriously considered banning proto (and possibly advanced) gear from public contract matches, especially now that we'll have two "hardcore" game modes with FW and PC giving players plenty of competitive places to use their best gear. This would give younger players an easier foothold into the game and grow the community much faster than it does today.


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Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1766	Posted - 2013.11.07 14:07:00 - [1] - Quote What exactly is your issue with the AR? Have you seen the new weapons that are coming out? Are you dying too much from a close range high RoF high damage weapon? Are you staying inside its optimals where it is SUPPOSED to chew you to shreds?
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1766	Posted - 2013.11.07 14:46:00 - [2] - Quote PEW JACKSON wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: What exactly is your issue with the AR? Have you seen the new weapons that are coming out? Are you dying too much from a close range high RoF high damage weapon? Are you staying inside its optimals where it is SUPPOSED to chew you to shreds? Considering it has a 40m optimal and an effective range out to 120m.... What do you suppose we all do? It chews through armor just as well, if not better than SMGs in their optimals. It can melt LR users faster in their own optimals with no overheat. Hmg is a huge airsoft gun compared to the AR. Ascr loses in dps due to it's dispersion(WTF???) Scr Rifles meh, there are exceptions, but they're not in a great place. Same with scram pistols Mass Driver users will be dead before the 2nd shot gets fired against an AR. Shotgun users get face raped if they miss more than 2 shots against the all mighty AR. Don't believe it? Find the nearest proto suited dmg modded AR scrub and see how you die. Btw I've seen the new weaps that are coming. Chances are AR scrubs that die to them will cry NERF!!! Then after a few CCP hammer swings, we'll be playing AR 514 again. If anyone's left. If there is an issue I have with the AR itself, yes it is dispersion. But frankly, as a player who has figured out how to pick engagement easily outside of the 50m circle on my map with weapons that can outperform against the AR I have little sympathy for your DPS arguments. If you tone down the DPS on the AR much more than 5-10%, then just outside their falloff EVERY OTHER rifle become completely dominant over them. Inside their optimals they are king. Changing it to have slightly more dispersion would be enough to mechanically alter DPS. At about 50% of their falloff they have pretty good sustained damage compared to other weapons. However, any AR but a duvolle/TAC with damage mods cannot compete with the lasers at its 70m optimals. The only other situation where your argument is more valid than not is in PC where lag favors high damage, close proximity, and reliably high RoF weapons. That is NOT A STAT ISSUE, that is a hardware/performance issue.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1766	Posted - 2013.11.07 15:08:00 - [3] - Quote I dunno guys, I've maybe only put about 4-5 hours into the 1.6 patch and have mostly been messing around with a 500 eHP logi suit with a scrambler rifle and pistol. and a commando (850 eHP) with a laser/AScr/SLauncher combo. All of those suits are normally scanner fit, so I'm seeing my enemies before they see me. I just can't say that my TTK/TTdeath experience is matching how you guys are describing. I guess it is very possible that the squads I've been with have had some AR dominators that were doing most of the work...
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1766	Posted - 2013.11.07 15:40:00 - [4] - Quote Could we get a little more technical?: If we were to decide a 'paper' baseline HP:DPS (TTK) ratio at the STD skill/suit level what would you guys decide it should be? That's what we are talking about right? Also, what do you guys think the data has suits scaling up to on paper. If you can fit 2x the tank on a PRO suit while also doing 50% more DPS and everyone else can do that that means TTK goes up by 1/3rd (against like PRO fits), against the STD fits it drops by about 1/3rd. The big disparity is that the STD loadout shooting the PRO loadout means that STD TTK vs. the PRO is 2x as long as STD TTK vs. another STD and 3x longer than it takes for the PRO to kill the STD. This means that in order to overcome his stat disadvantage, the STD fit player has to be 3x as efficient in hitting his target, using shield recharges, dodging rounds, utilizing reloads, etc. as the PRO fit players. With those kinds of multipliers, you can see that as you make a STD vs. STD base TTK much more than 2 seconds, at least with the model's rate of scaling (more HP/damage for PRO suits) you really start to reward the kind of 'handicap allowance' that PRO suits/weapons give you. For balance two core design questions would be: 1) What is a good STD vs. STD TTK. 2) How do you best scale the advantages of skill to reward SP investment, but not cripple the usefulness of STD gear? IOW, what should STD vs. STD/ PRO vs. PRO/ and STD vs PRO / PRO vs. STD TTK all be? 3) Should we be balancing TTK for 1v1 or for other combat models?
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1766	Posted - 2013.11.07 16:08:00 - [5] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: You lost me there pal That would deserve an entirely different topic to discuss it BAH! Where did I lose you? My point is that this is a TTK thread. What SHOULD be a good TTK for these different suit vs. suit combinations? If you take your militia AR and are looking at a militia starter suit standing still like a dolt, how long should it take to kill him with 100% accuracy? Whatever this number is, it would then have to take into account, more or less the reality of combat. To what extent could he move to mitigate your accuracy? To what extent would YOUR moving reduce your own accuracy? To what extent could/should latency reduce weapon effectiveness? Let's say you pick 1.5 seconds as the baseline for MLT AR killing MLT suit with 100% accuracy. If HIS movement reduces your accuracy by 25% and your own movement reduces it by 25% then this stacks as making you 56% of original effectiveness. This then makes TTK in this scenario 2.7 seconds. Now give him a PRO suit with 2x more HP, and your TTK doubles to >5 seconds, w/o modifying for him possibly being faster or getting in a shield recharge or having enough of a window to be getting logi reps. Now you then have to keep in mind that different weapons reward accuracy different along with applying the range and 'speed' and of your dps (burst or sustained) differently. So can we go there? How long should it take to kill a normal strafing MLT suit with a MLT rifle for a person with average accuracy?
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1766	Posted - 2013.11.07 18:05:00 - [6] - Quote Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote: Quote: Now give him a PRO suit with 2x more HP, and your TTK doubles to >5 seconds, w/o modifying for him possibly being faster or getting in a shield recharge or having enough of a window to be getting logi reps. THIS is where we get to the crux of the problem. As far as what I'm pushing for as a CPM member - I'd much rather have CCP rebalance suits and weapons to eliminate this major design problem of higher tiers = more raw power (or as many of you like to call it, "Tiericide.") It took years for CCP to weed this problem out of EVE Online - only to inject it right back into Dust. Instead of obsessing over the minutia of TTK figures, I'd rather the communite unite and collectively push CCP to redesign suits and weapons so that higher tiers enable specialization, not an easier beatdown. Alternative, if CCP is too stubborn to go to this much work, at very least I think its time we seriously considered banning proto (and possibly advanced) gear from public contract matches, especially now that we'll have two "hardcore" game modes with FW and PC giving players plenty of competitive places to use their best gear. This would give younger players an easier foothold into the game and grow the community much faster than it does today. Huah! finally, someone wants to actually talk about the problem constructively! So if trying to design around a reasonable baseline TTK is not what we want to do, and you are proposing 'specialization' as the alternative to overpowered upgrading, then we have to describe concretely what is acceptable specialization. If we DON'T mean 'categorically superiorior TTK' across all categories then specialization has to be well defined as something other than superior TTK. Also, if 'specialization' is the end-state of our hypothetical design, then are we saying that players should more or less be penalized for generalizing, and/or for not choosing the right specialization for whatever context they are in? If so, how badly should they be penalized for how poorly they choose? How much SP should be dedicated to effective specializations? We should recognize that these are the very complicated kinds of design questions that get really nuanced, difficult to integrate into the many game systems that exist, plan out, and bring to fruition as CCP is unfolding this thing. They can put feelers out there for CPM input, and have ideas in mind for end-states, but a lot of the answers to the above questions don't have a lot of objective answers. Short sighted rage posts along the lines of "TTK IS TOO SHORT" or "THIS IS AN EFFING TRACKING SHOOTER! WTF!" doesn't really give credit to the difficulty inherent in designing a solution to these questions.