I just feel that I kill stuff too fast with Toxin AR and ScR. Maybe that is good for me, but it is not good for the game, since it it is supposed to be a shooter with High Hp, strafing and tracking skills.

I wont say otherwise. the 10% uprising buff needs to go for rifles\smgs as a first step. might end up being a good balance move across the board regarding rifles\other weapons dynamic.

Would love to have more feedback regarding taking this to the devs as a possible first step hotfix.

Please make a name list or something. I will sign it immidiately for you. I bet most dust players will also do it.

No need, i lurk around enough ^^

Also, i already mentionned to Wolf many players were "surprised" by the lower TTK. Said i would keep lurking and discussing it. Wolf said they didnt get that feeling in internal play test so he is gonna play online himself to forge its own opinion.

And he'll probably lurk down here as well

Of course they didn't get that impression in internal testing when half their shots are missing because of bad aim

I wont say otherwise. the 10% uprising buff needs to go for rifles\smgs as a first step imo. might end up being a good balance move across the board regarding rifles\other weapons dynamic.

Would love to have more feedback regarding taking this to the devs as a possible first step hotfix.

Could we get a little more technical?:

If we were to decide a 'paper' baseline HP:DPS (TTK) ratio at the STD skill/suit level what would you guys decide it should be? That's what we are talking about right? Also, what do you guys think the data has suits scaling up to on paper. If you can fit 2x the tank on a PRO suit while also doing 50% more DPS and everyone else can do that that means TTK goes up by 1/3rd (against like PRO fits), against the STD fits it drops by about 1/3rd.

The big disparity is that the STD loadout shooting the PRO loadout means that STD TTK vs. the PRO is 2x as long as STD TTK vs. another STD and 3x longer than it takes for the PRO to kill the STD. This means that in order to overcome his stat disadvantage, the STD fit player has to be 3x as efficient in hitting his target, using shield recharges, dodging rounds, utilizing reloads, etc. as the PRO fit players.

With those kinds of multipliers, you can see that as you make a STD vs. STD base TTK much more than 2 seconds, at least with the model's rate of scaling (more HP/damage for PRO suits) you really start to reward the kind of 'handicap allowance' that PRO suits/weapons give you.

For balance two core design questions would be:

1) What is a good STD vs. STD TTK.
2) How do you best scale the advantages of skill to reward SP investment, but not cripple the usefulness of STD gear? IOW, what should STD vs. STD/ PRO vs. PRO/ and STD vs PRO / PRO vs. STD TTK all be?
3) Should we be balancing TTK for 1v1 or for other combat models?

Considering it has a 40m optimal and an effective range out to 120m.

Btw I've seen the new weaps that are coming. Chances are AR scrubs that die to them will cry NERF!!! Then after a few CCP hammer swings, we'll be playing AR 514 again. If anyone's left.

From what I've read the only one that plays anymore is Kain and he's pretty awful as a heavy. So maybe the heavy will get more love...

Could we get a little more technical?:

If we were to decide a 'paper' baseline HP:DPS (TTK) ratio at the STD skill/suit level what would you guys decide it should be? That's what we are talking about right? Also, what do you guys think the data has suits scaling up to on paper. If you can fit 2x the tank on a PRO suit while also doing 50% more DPS and everyone else can do that that means TTK goes up by 1/3rd (against like PRO fits), against the STD fits it drops by about 1/3rd.

The big disparity is that the STD loadout shooting the PRO loadout means that STD TTK vs. the PRO is 2x as long as STD TTK vs. another STD and 3x longer than it takes for the PRO to kill the STD. This means that in order to overcome his stat disadvantage, the STD fit player has to be 3x as efficient in hitting his target, using shield recharges, dodging rounds, utilizing reloads, etc. as the PRO fit players.

With those kinds of multipliers, you can see that as you make a STD vs. STD base TTK much more than 2 seconds, at least with the model's rate of scaling (more HP/damage for PRO suits) you really start to reward the kind of 'handicap allowance' that PRO suits/weapons give you.

For balance two core design questions would be:

1) What is a good STD vs. STD TTK.
2) How do you best scale the advantages of skill to reward SP investment, but not cripple the usefulness of STD gear? IOW, what should STD vs. STD/ PRO vs. PRO/ and STD vs PRO / PRO vs. STD TTK all be?
3) Should we be balancing TTK for 1v1 or for other combat models?

In other news if CPM doesn't push your agenda, they're doing nothing.

If there is an issue I have with the AR itself, yes it is dispersion. But frankly, as a player who has figured out how to pick engagement easily outside of the 50m circle on my map with weapons that can outperform against the AR I have little sympathy for your DPS arguments. If you tone down the DPS on the AR much more than 5-10%, then just outside their falloff EVERY OTHER rifle become completely dominant over them. Inside their optimals they are king. Changing it to have slightly more dispersion would be enough to mechanically alter DPS.

At about 50% of their falloff they have pretty good sustained damage compared to other weapons. However, any AR but a duvolle/TAC with damage mods cannot compete with the lasers at its 70m optimals.

The only other situation where your argument is more valid than not is in PC where lag favors high damage, close proximity, and reliably high RoF weapons. That is NOT A STAT ISSUE, that is a hardware/performance issue.

You lost me there pal That would deserve an entirely different topic to discuss it

That is the job of the CPM, to push player's complaints and worries to ccp.

From what I've read the only one that plays anymore is Kain and he's pretty awful as a heavy. So maybe the heavy will get more love...

BAH! Where did I lose you? My point is that this is a TTK thread. What SHOULD be a good TTK for these different suit vs. suit combinations? If you take your militia AR and are looking at a militia starter suit standing still like a dolt, how long should it take to kill him with 100% accuracy?

Now give him a PRO suit with 2x more HP, and your TTK doubles to >5 seconds, w/o modifying for him possibly being faster or getting in a shield recharge or having enough of a window to be getting logi reps.

THIS is where we get to the crux of the problem. As far as what I'm pushing for as a CPM member - I'd much rather have CCP rebalance suits and weapons to eliminate this major design problem of higher tiers = more raw power (or as many of you like to call it, "Tiericide.") It took years for CCP to weed this problem out of EVE Online - only to inject it right back into Dust. Instead of obsessing over the minutia of TTK figures, I'd rather the communite unite and collectively push CCP to redesign suits and weapons so that higher tiers enable specialization, not an easier beatdown.

Alternative, if CCP is too stubborn to go to this much work, at very least I think its time we seriously considered banning proto (and possibly advanced) gear from public contract matches, especially now that we'll have two "hardcore" game modes with FW and PC giving players plenty of competitive places to use their best gear. This would give younger players an easier foothold into the game and grow the community much faster than it does today.

But it's YOUR agenda.
I could want to nerf scouts, and since the CPM won't make CCP do it, then they're doing nothing?

But it's YOUR agenda.
I could want to nerf scouts, and since the CPM won't make CCP do it, then they're doing nothing?

hey plays last i saw him ina min logi witha proto smg

(Stuff about AR's and the CPM)

When I talk about AR I mean AR and ScR right now, possibly RR and CR.