DUST Search - What is the CPM doing about the assault rifle?

Beren Hurin wrote:

Could we get a little more technical?:

If we were to decide a 'paper' baseline HP:DPS (TTK) ratio at the STD skill/suit level what would you guys decide it should be? That's what we are talking about right? Also, what do you guys think the data has suits scaling up to on paper. If you can fit 2x the tank on a PRO suit while also doing 50% more DPS and everyone else can do that that means TTK goes up by 1/3rd (against like PRO fits), against the STD fits it drops by about 1/3rd.

The big disparity is that the STD loadout shooting the PRO loadout means that STD TTK vs. the PRO is 2x as long as STD TTK vs. another STD and 3x longer than it takes for the PRO to kill the STD. This means that in order to overcome his stat disadvantage, the STD fit player has to be 3x as efficient in hitting his target, using shield recharges, dodging rounds, utilizing reloads, etc. as the PRO fit players.

With those kinds of multipliers, you can see that as you make a STD vs. STD base TTK much more than 2 seconds, at least with the model's rate of scaling (more HP/damage for PRO suits) you really start to reward the kind of 'handicap allowance' that PRO suits/weapons give you.

For balance two core design questions would be:

1) What is a good STD vs. STD TTK.
2) How do you best scale the advantages of skill to reward SP investment, but not cripple the usefulness of STD gear? IOW, what should STD vs. STD/ PRO vs. PRO/ and STD vs PRO / PRO vs. STD TTK all be?
3) Should we be balancing TTK for 1v1 or for other combat models?


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Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2021	Posted - 2013.11.07 14:37:00 - [1] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Jenza, IWS, Kain, etc, see title. For your information, i do play. Didnt much for a while but doing my cap again now. Now, aside from playing, reading the forums and gathering players feeling and reporting it to devs not much i can do. Unlike what some seem to think, i dont go to Wolfman and scream "Nerf AR !" or "Buff my suit !" Still, that doesnt prevent me from having an opinion. And i think it is too good at the moment. 1.6 made it even worse as new HD emphasizes a lot its absence of recoil and high rof. In my opinion, its damage output should be toned down (not nerfed to hell..) and its damage fall off over distance be more noticeable. The coming range changes may help even though when i compare the new numbers with the current ones i dont see much of a difference. Overall, i think all rifles (SR, smgs and the coming CR\RR as well) should have their damage toned down a bit now. (starting with the 10% uprising buff ). Would also make the HMG feel better than it is now without actually tweaking it. (no i dont play as a heavy,) And btw, i couldnt agree more with the "Core Locus 514" part of your sig. Those need to be toned down as well. Maybe rise their nanite cluster consumption to avoid spamming. decrease the explosion radius and\or damage a tad . Revamp their efficiency vs shield to make them less over-efficient. (yes i do use core locus) This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2023	Posted - 2013.11.07 14:46:00 - [2] - Quote PEW JACKSON wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: What exactly is your issue with the AR? Have you seen the new weapons that are coming out? Are you dying too much from a close range high RoF high damage weapon? Are you staying inside its optimals where it is SUPPOSED to chew you to shreds? Considering it has a 40m optimal and an effective range out to 120m.... What do you suppose we all do? It chews through armor just as well, if not better than SMGs in their optimals. It can melt LR users faster in their own optimals with no overheat. Hmg is a huge airsoft gun compared to the AR. Ascr loses in dps due to it's dispersion(WTF???) Scr Rifles meh, there are exceptions, but they're not in a great place. Same with scram pistols Mass Driver users will be dead before the 2nd shot gets fired against an AR. Shotgun users get face raped if they miss more than 2 shots against the all mighty AR. Don't believe it? Find the nearest proto suited dmg modded AR scrub and see how you die. Btw I've seen the new weaps that are coming. Chances are AR scrubs that die to them will cry NERF!!! Then after a few CCP hammer swings, we'll be playing AR 514 again. If anyone's left. That's the key. If you watch the stats for the next 2 ARs, the higher the range, the bigger the DPS (for a same variant), And there's a lot to bet the bigger the recoil. In theory, it's a pattern that could work. But when combined with aim assist\hit detection\dispersion, a number that seems fine may not be when you're on the BF. Having the AR be king of ARs in close quarter doesnt strike me as odd. Having it not even fear lasers, does. So yeah. I'd be inclined to have an overall damage decrease of automatic weapons as i said before (except HMG) to see if that helps the rifle vs everything else debate. And then, before tweaking numbers among different types of rifles, i'd wait and see how the range changes and new rifles affect the rifles dynamic on the field. Which pains me as i'm currently stuck with the ASCR that i probably love as much as i hate it.... This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2024	Posted - 2013.11.07 14:58:00 - [3] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: I agree with the above posters that most weapons seem to be balanced wrt bad performance. This patch just became a ketchup effect of OP instakill weapon, which ruins the game for me and many others... Dont blame the patch. I mean, it gets me frustrated as well in some situations. But overall, finally having an effective hit detection is good. Now there's just a need to adjust data accordingly. IF we think about it, it makes sense that a good HD suddenly makes automatic weapons better. SMGs are pretty beasty as well now. HMG with the slight heavy buff are ripping me off now compared to how weak most heavy\hmg were in 1.5. So yeah, it's frustrating to get insta dropped by AR (and to be fair, i insta drop people with my ASCR as well.) but it's a huge improvement to the game that makes it so. I like it better this way to be honest : fixing thing because game got technically better and not the other way around. This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2024	Posted - 2013.11.07 15:09:00 - [4] - Quote dustwaffle wrote: Cosgar wrote: I can't help but get the impression that almost everything is balaced based on bad hit detection. Not empty quoting. That's not wrong. 10% post uprising damage buff. aim assist. Lower scout speed. overall reduced movement speed nerf over time. HMG health debuff (the very old debuff) etc.. That's why i maintain that this patch is a major good new. As the HD is now very fine imo, the next balance pass will be done on healthier fondations. This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2026	Posted - 2013.11.07 15:18:00 - [5] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: I just feel that I kill stuff too fast with Toxin AR and ScR. Maybe that is good for me, but it is not good for the game, since it it is supposed to be a shooter with High Hp, strafing and tracking skills. I wont say otherwise. the 10% uprising buff needs to go for rifles\smgs as a first step. might end up being a good balance move across the board regarding rifles\other weapons dynamic. Would love to have more feedback regarding taking this to the devs as a possible first step hotfix. This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2029	Posted - 2013.11.07 15:29:00 - [6] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: I just feel that I kill stuff too fast with Toxin AR and ScR. Maybe that is good for me, but it is not good for the game, since it it is supposed to be a shooter with High Hp, strafing and tracking skills. I wont say otherwise. the 10% uprising buff needs to go for rifles\smgs as a first step. might end up being a good balance move across the board regarding rifles\other weapons dynamic. Would love to have more feedback regarding taking this to the devs as a possible first step hotfix. Please make a name list or something. I will sign it immidiately for you. I bet most dust players will also do it. No need, i lurk around enough ^^ Also, i already mentionned to Wolf many players were "surprised" by the lower TTK. Said i would keep lurking and discussing it. Wolf said they didnt get that feeling in internal play test so he is gonna play online himself to forge its own opinion. And he'll probably lurk down here as well This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2033	Posted - 2013.11.07 15:39:00 - [7] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Of course they didn't get that impression in internal testing when half their shots are missing because of bad aim THAT is exactly what i said to him . This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2033	Posted - 2013.11.07 15:46:00 - [8] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: Could we get a little more technical?: If we were to decide a 'paper' baseline HP:DPS (TTK) ratio at the STD skill/suit level what would you guys decide it should be? That's what we are talking about right? Also, what do you guys think the data has suits scaling up to on paper. If you can fit 2x the tank on a PRO suit while also doing 50% more DPS and everyone else can do that that means TTK goes up by 1/3rd (against like PRO fits), against the STD fits it drops by about 1/3rd. The big disparity is that the STD loadout shooting the PRO loadout means that STD TTK vs. the PRO is 2x as long as STD TTK vs. another STD and 3x longer than it takes for the PRO to kill the STD. This means that in order to overcome his stat disadvantage, the STD fit player has to be 3x as efficient in hitting his target, using shield recharges, dodging rounds, utilizing reloads, etc. as the PRO fit players. With those kinds of multipliers, you can see that as you make a STD vs. STD base TTK much more than 2 seconds, at least with the model's rate of scaling (more HP/damage for PRO suits) you really start to reward the kind of 'handicap allowance' that PRO suits/weapons give you. For balance two core design questions would be: 1) What is a good STD vs. STD TTK. 2) How do you best scale the advantages of skill to reward SP investment, but not cripple the usefulness of STD gear? IOW, what should STD vs. STD/ PRO vs. PRO/ and STD vs PRO / PRO vs. STD TTK all be? 3) Should we be balancing TTK for 1v1 or for other combat models? You lost me there pal That would deserve an entirely different topic to discuss it This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2052	Posted - 2013.11.08 00:17:00 - [9] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Cat Merc wrote: In other news if CPM doesn't push your agenda, they're doing nothing. That is the job of the CPM, to push player's complaints and worries to ccp. But it's YOUR agenda. I could want to nerf scouts, and since the CPM won't make CCP do it, then they're doing nothing? Except we dont push stuff coming from a single individual. the whole point is to try and mix our own experience with community feedback and dev talks. This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !