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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
D legendary hero
Ultramarine Corp
1216
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Posted - 2013.10.24 02:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
Zero Roamero wrote:.........So you haven't already seen the damage the heavy machine gun CAN ALREADY do then.
ARs
With AR DPS statistics to actual application in battle is pretty straight forward. For example. Militia AR does 425 dps (467 with 10% given at the end of chromosome). Since, dispersion, hit detection issues and recoil are negligible up to 88m range they will not be considered. With Aim assist player end inaccuracy is negligible as well. Since, AR rounds are instantaneous in this game (they have no trajectory, they are hit scans). Once you put your sights on target, all your rounds hit target.
so, lets see:
34 damage per shot * 750rpm = damage per minute/60seconds = 425 damage per seconds *1.1 = 467.5 DPS
therefore, for ARs calculated DPS = actual DPS. Then there is a mild damage fall off.
HMGs
With HMG DPS the numbers are misleading. You have a harsher damage fall off, higher dispersion, greater hit detection issues, recoil issues, and etc.
The calculated DPS within HMG range seems high. for example, a std HMG does 18 damage per shot * 2000rpm = damage per minute/60 = 600 damage per second *1.1 = 660 DPS.
however, hit detection issues almost always negate between 10-20% of your HMG rounds.
so now your DPS is reduced to about 600 to 590 DPS.
The enemy has to be within the tiny dot in the center of the HMG retecule to get hit by any bullets. Suggesting that dispersion is not randomly generated but instead is automatically taken out of the DPS by the game engine.
Dispersion is around 20-25% from my estimations. That lends to a DPS reduction from between 600 to 590 to a DPS between 480 to 450.
This is pretty decent but not by much. As you can see a heavies DPS is only marginally higher than an ARs. With 1/3 the range.
HMG fall off:
When you calculate damage fall off you can see why the HMG's actual DPS is so drastically different from the calculated DPS. I actually counted the seconds it took to kill a militia minmintar suit at 50m range with my STD HMG. It too 3 seconds of sustained fire. I have I complex damage mod on that HMG. My calculated DPS is 726. however to kill a milita minmintar medium frame with no more than 400ehp took 3 seconds of sustained fire. so the fall off is huge. precisely how much so?
(726ehp*3) -( n*55m) = 400ehp
726*3 = 400 + (n*55)
(726*3) - 400 = n * 55
2178-400 = n * 55
1778 = 55n
1778/55 = n
n= 32.3272
[note: this N is reduction in HMG dps in 3 seconds time]
I am not exactly sure what factors compose n (dispersion hit detection and/or fall off) and the exact combination or contribution of these factors. What I do know however, is that at 55m range, with an HMG doing 726 calculated DPS it took 3 seconds, to down a suit with 400 ehp. So evidently, N is the negative factor that decreases HMG dps per m.
so at 40 meters fall off, dispersion and/or hit detection makes the HMG do 1293.088 less dps in 3 seconds time.If this N is in fact 32.3272 less dps per m in 3 seconds time, then In 1 seconds time the N must be 10.775733.
TL;DR
AR calculated DPS = AR actual DPS. Fall off is negligible up to 88m.
HMG calculated DPS =/= actual DPS. fall off, dispersion, and hit detection reduce HMG DPS by 10.775733 DPS per second. therefore:
LIST HMG STD DPS AT RANGES
- AT 10m range from target HMG DPS = 552.5
- AT 20m range from target HMG DPS = 445
- AT 30m range from target HMG DPS = 337.5 (this is the range where you get out gunned while being across the street)
- AT 40m range from target HMG DPS = 230
- AT 50m range from target HMG DPS = 122.5 (why bother)
need I go on?... |
D legendary hero
Ultramarine Corp
1219
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Posted - 2013.10.24 17:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
Disturbingly Bored wrote:D legendary hero wrote: A whole lot of stuff. You know D, I've seen you make posts like this before. And I've always taken issue with your assumptions of how much damage is lost due to dispersion/hit detection/etc. I took issue to it because you'd basically make up a number and then treat it like a fact, along side confirmable facts like base DPS. However, this: Quote:(DB EDIT:) ESTIMATED LIST HMG STD DPS AT RANGES
- AT 10m range from target HMG DPS = 552.5
- AT 20m range from target HMG DPS = 445
- AT 30m range from target HMG DPS = 337.5 (this is the range where you get out gunned while being across the street)
- AT 40m range from target HMG DPS = 230
- AT 50m range from target HMG DPS = 122.5 (why bother)
need I go on?... That looks pretty close to my experience in game. Looks like you've been refining your process, and I can respect that. So +1, but do be please careful about making up numbers, and be clear when you're inserting a gut-check percentage into your equation. (For instance: losing 25% damage to dispersion. We both know that is not confirmable.)
it was really rough trying to get concrete numbers before to deal with. especially since the HMG has so many factors involved where the AR does not. So, basically what I did was forget about trying to specify which percent is what. The n = -10.32 dps/m could be any combination of hit detection ratios, dispersion loss and/or damage fall off.
TBH I can't tell you whether is 90% fall off, and 10% the rest etc. But this number I knew I was able to accurately calculate based on my in game experience (across several months).
This does explain why at 0-5m range why my HMG tears through people pretty fast, but at 10 and farther ARs are able to better compete. At 10m range a GEK AR with proficiency has the same DPS as an HMG. At 20m A militia AR has the same DPS. Now add in the fact the the tiny center dot of the HMG must stay on target for any damage to be done and you cansee why its an inferior weapon
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D legendary hero
Ultramarine Corp
1221
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Posted - 2013.10.24 22:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
Kalante Schiffer wrote:Lance 2ballzStrong wrote:Kalante Schiffer wrote:another 10 page AR qq thread? What's there to QQ about. It's an easy weapon to use, so it's the weapon of choice. The thread was about heavies and their lack of content, and how mediocre they are. So defensive about your weapon  you make it sound like i care about the AR which i dont. when i started dust i was a real good sniper and a mediocre shotguner, being a heavy was next but i decided to go AR. i am probably the worst person you can tell that i care about something. If its such an easy weapon will you ever get 40 kills in a pc with it? pretty sure not
I HMGs worked so well we is it that no one uses it in PC?
Most of those proto heavies you see in Pub matches run Full ptroto ARs with full proto caldar suits in PC |
D legendary hero
Ultramarine Corp
1229
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Posted - 2013.10.30 07:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
CHIPMINT BUTTERCUP wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Not to slight accountants in any way, but I really am not, I'm an engineer  I work closely with the Dust team, so even not actively developing, can (sometimes) influence what is developed. To address some of the questions. I don't think I said the heavy was PC competitive, if you read my comment, I said it could be used situationally, and not everyone knows about the crouching, I think it's been kept a little secret in the community. I don't think I ever advocated crouching constantly out in the open all the time. We are increasing the effective ehp by 20% in 1.6 which will help. On the forums, I am sharing my thoughts as a player, and also to get feedback and discussions, about things that interest me as a player or playstyles that I am not personally familiar with We absolutely try to source information from the CPM, forums, internal metrics and logs, and of course, our own experience. All these play a part in the decision making process. So let's keep the feedback positive and detailed, many posts in this thread are superb in that aspect, and have certainly helped me understand the heavy's concerns better. Don't forget about the repair tool love. G¥ñ This will also help the fatties, if used as a fatty loggy pairing.
that name...so familiar...
D Legendary Hero, Defender of the downtrodden.
Let those tainted by evil beware... soon they will discover Justice
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D legendary hero
Ultramarine Corp
1229
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Posted - 2013.10.30 07:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lance 2ballzStrong wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Not to slight accountants in any way, but I really am not, I'm an engineer I work closely with the Dust team, so even not actively developing, can (sometimes) influence what is developed. To address some of the questions. I don't think I said the heavy was PC competitive, if you read my comment, I said it could be used situationally, and not everyone knows about the crouching, I think it's been kept a little secret in the community. I don't think I ever advocated crouching constantly out in the open all the time. We are increasing the effective ehp by 20% in 1.6 which will help. On the forums, I am sharing my thoughts as a player, and also to get feedback and discussions, about things that interest me as a player or playstyles that I am not personally familiar with We absolutely try to source information from the CPM, forums, internal metrics and logs, and of course, our own experience. All these play a part in the decision making process. So let's keep the feedback positive and detailed, many posts in this thread are superb in that aspect, and have certainly helped me understand the heavy's concerns better. It's great and all that heavies get this very slight buff, which imo, won't do anything but decrease your time to die by .2 seconds. The problem isn't the eHP, the problem is the HMG is utter POOP! I would admit, that having more HP is aright, in certain situations, like nade spam, but that might be a case of nerfing the nade in general. The fact that heavy suits have no resistance to explosions is also funny, but at this point I find it hard to laugh anymore. Until the HMG gets a buff, the class will be a waste of time to use. Honestly. Just stop with trying to make the suit better. Heavies want to kill, and in 1v1 situations vs an assault player, 20% more base eHP does nothing. Again this comes back to feedback and CCP NOT LISTENING. Who said base eHP was a problem? Nobody cares about base eHP at this point, yet here we are, getting a buff to somewhere we didn't want. I guess now we can be quiet because we get a buff right? This buff is useless. I'm sorry for being frank, and somewhat rude, but the time, money, and effort I put into this class seems to be for nothing, and CCP couldn't care less about about this part of the community because we're a minority in a game that's suppose to be about "diversity".
I concur. In fact buffs like this make buffing the HMG more difficult. why?
When the heavy suits ehp increases, its longevity increases. When trying to buff the HMG its TTK increases. Since both are intertwine. Increasing ehp and attack power begins to border OP.
So. Although this 20% increase is welcome. This should be the last increase to heavies ehp (well perhaps another 10% increase). The final buffing to the heavy should be done on the HMG.
the funny thing is that the damage on the HMg is actually quite fine. But, the dispersion needs a reduction. In fact all the same skill trees that SMGs have, HMGs should have.
[/list]
HMGs should have an extra skill to decrease dispersion.
HMGs should have little to no fall off damage.
[/list]
why? if you can't put enough rounds in the same area your DPS always becomes pathetic. if you can't hit targets at a range they can't hit you, then you can not suppress them. case and point.
D Legendary Hero, Defender of the downtrodden.
Let those tainted by evil beware... soon they will discover Justice
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