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Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star. EoN.
1324
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 14:52:00 -
[1] - Quote
Its made as an AV weapon which it is fine for and i have no trouble with it
Big problem is that it is a superior weapon to use when killing infantry and requires free aim to do so
You can easily pull a 20-0 and use a milita FG if wanted granted it does require to be up high but once up high you are basically god and only a well placed OB will throw you off
But when this happened with swarms it was classed as broken and OP, that got fixed by being a lock on weapon and only for vehicles
So do you think the FG is OP against infantry?
Do you think the problem is the FG being up high?
Do you think its a combination of both problems?
Should the FG kill infantry?
Is it even a problem at all? If it is how would you fix it?
Also remember its basically a handheld version of a railgun except more damage and splash/radius so infantry would cry for the vehicle railgun to be also changed most likely because they are similiar so if a FG cant kill infantry then neither would the vehicle railgun for example
Thoughts?
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Kam Elto
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
82
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 15:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
a forge gun on the ground can easily kill a forge gun high up. spec into one.
a gun that destroys vehicles/installations SHOULD be able to kill infantry also.
so no, it's not a problem. |
low genius
the sound of freedom Renegade Alliance
661
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 15:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
the fg has been neutralized in everything but insta-battles. get some eve support. |
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star. EoN.
1326
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 15:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Kam Elto wrote:a forge gun on the ground can easily kill a forge gun high up. spec into one.
a gun that destroys vehicles/installations SHOULD be able to kill infantry also.
so no, it's not a problem.
I didnt know a FG could shoot through buildings |
Kam Elto
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
83
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 15:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Kam Elto wrote:a forge gun on the ground can easily kill a forge gun high up. spec into one.
a gun that destroys vehicles/installations SHOULD be able to kill infantry also.
so no, it's not a problem. I didnt know a FG could shoot through buildings i wish it could, lol. but no, you just shoot them when they poke their heads over the edge to shoot down. you have to use the charged variant though, not the assault.
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Keri Starlight
Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
711
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 15:34:00 -
[6] - Quote
Last time I expressed my opinions about the Forge Gun it turned into a 12 pages discussion with the same 2 people impliedly offending my intelligence with poor arguments and quoting and liking each other's posts to no end.
So, this time, I will still express my opinion, but I will completely ignore any counter-post. This is my idea, if you like it, fine. If you don't, fine. End of story.
*Ahem*.
Yes, Forge Gun should be able to kill infantry, because it's not specifically an AV weapon, it's anti-material. And it's a heavy weapon, something you can equip only by using a restrictive dropsuit with massive exoskeleton and you need an advantage over the Swarm Launcher for this reason.
The problem is that it's too powerful, but not for Alpha Damage. It's the combination of the massive damage, accuracy, DPS, splash damage, splash radius and range. Speaking of "weapon VS infantry", it makes sniper rifles absolete and this is wrong.
How to balance it against both infantry and vehicles?
Damage falloff over distance.
No nerf to the raw damage, blast damage/radius and accuracy, you just need to MOVE if you want to control one area and you have to choose WHICH area you want to defend, without insta-poppong vehicles and infantry across the whole map. This is the problem with the Forge Gun.
Done. |
MassiveNine
0uter.Heaven
243
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 15:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kam Elto wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Kam Elto wrote:a forge gun on the ground can easily kill a forge gun high up. spec into one.
a gun that destroys vehicles/installations SHOULD be able to kill infantry also.
so no, it's not a problem. I didnt know a FG could shoot through buildings i wish it could, lol. but no, you just shoot them when they poke their heads over the edge to shoot down. you have to use the charged variant though, not the assault.
I never ever use a charged variant. Ever. Just not worth the extra charge up time. Anyone decent with the forge will know exactly when to start charging. I might miss the first time but usually the second time is the charm. |
MassiveNine
0uter.Heaven
243
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 15:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
Keri Starlight wrote:Last time I expressed my opinions about the Forge Gun it turned into a 12 pages discussion with the same 2 people impliedly offending my intelligence with poor arguments and quoting and liking each other's posts to no end.
So, this time, I will still express my opinion, but I will completely ignore any counter-post. This is my idea, if you like it, fine. If you don't, fine. End of story.
*Ahem*.
Yes, Forge Gun should be able to kill infantry, because it's not specifically an AV weapon, it's anti-material. And it's a heavy weapon, something you can equip only by using a restrictive dropsuit with massive exoskeleton and you need an advantage over the Swarm Launcher for this reason.
The problem is that it's too powerful, but not for Alpha Damage. It's the combination of the massive damage, accuracy, DPS, splash damage, splash radius and range. Speaking of "weapon VS infantry", it makes sniper rifles absolete and this is wrong.
How to balance it against both infantry and vehicles?
Damage falloff over distance.
No nerf to the raw damage, blast damage/radius and accuracy, you just need to MOVE if you want to control one area and you have to choose WHICH area you want to defend, without insta-poppong vehicles and infantry across the whole map. This is the problem with the Forge Gun.
Done.
I'm sorry, but you keep saying "it makes the sniper rifle obsolete" and everyone here knows damn well that's not true. Very rarely will i be in a match where if I get any sort of tactical height advantage in less than two minutes I'll have at the very least two snipers taking shots at me. Snipers can hit me from 200m behind the redline where the forge has a 300m range max. bullets in real life do less damage the farther they travel as well so if you want to implement damage fall-off on the forge might as well do it to every other weapon in the game... amirite?
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Awry Barux
Shining Flame Amarr Empire
171
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 15:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Its made as an AV weapon which it is fine for and i have no trouble with it
Big problem is that it is a superior weapon to use when killing infantry and requires free aim to do so
You can easily pull a 20-0 and use a milita FG if wanted granted it does require to be up high but once up high you are basically god and only a well placed OB will throw you off
But when this happened with swarms it was classed as broken and OP, that got fixed by being a lock on weapon and only for vehicles
So do you think the FG is OP against infantry?
Do you think the problem is the FG being up high?
Do you think its a combination of both problems?
Should the FG kill infantry?
Is it even a problem at all? If it is how would you fix it?
Also remember its basically a handheld version of a railgun except more damage and splash/radius so infantry would cry for the vehicle railgun to be also changed most likely because they are similiar so if a FG cant kill infantry then neither would the vehicle railgun for example
Thoughts?
The charge time makes it balanced. If you come around the corner at a FG, or really just anything other than letting them snipe at you from the rooftops, you have a solid 2-3.5 seconds (depending on FG Ops and AFG vs FG) to burn the heavy down with an AR/SMG, which is very, very easy to do. If the heavy gets up high, it's so, so easy to keep them down, with just a MLT sniper or a TSR/CSR if you're really feeling angry. If you're an idiot, a good forge will wreck you every time, but I'd say that overall they're fairly well balanced. If they're a little OP, it's balanced out by having to wear a fatsuit. |
MassiveNine
0uter.Heaven
243
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 15:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
Awry Barux wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Its made as an AV weapon which it is fine for and i have no trouble with it
Big problem is that it is a superior weapon to use when killing infantry and requires free aim to do so
You can easily pull a 20-0 and use a milita FG if wanted granted it does require to be up high but once up high you are basically god and only a well placed OB will throw you off
But when this happened with swarms it was classed as broken and OP, that got fixed by being a lock on weapon and only for vehicles
So do you think the FG is OP against infantry?
Do you think the problem is the FG being up high?
Do you think its a combination of both problems?
Should the FG kill infantry?
Is it even a problem at all? If it is how would you fix it?
Also remember its basically a handheld version of a railgun except more damage and splash/radius so infantry would cry for the vehicle railgun to be also changed most likely because they are similiar so if a FG cant kill infantry then neither would the vehicle railgun for example
Thoughts?
The charge time makes it balanced. If you come around the corner at a FG, or really just anything other than letting them snipe at you from the rooftops, you have a solid 2-3.5 seconds (depending on FG Ops and AFG vs FG) to burn the heavy down with an AR/SMG, which is very, very easy to do. If the heavy gets up high, it's so, so easy to keep them down, with just a MLT sniper or a TSR/CSR if you're really feeling angry. If you're an idiot, a good forge will wreck you every time, but I'd say that overall they're fairly well balanced. If they're a little OP, it's balanced out by having to wear a fatsuit.
not to mention that a fully speced proto sniper rifle with damage mods can do well close to 1000 damage, I'd say it's pretty balanced. |
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Kam Elto
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
85
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 15:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
MassiveNine wrote:Kam Elto wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Kam Elto wrote:a forge gun on the ground can easily kill a forge gun high up. spec into one.
a gun that destroys vehicles/installations SHOULD be able to kill infantry also.
so no, it's not a problem. I didnt know a FG could shoot through buildings i wish it could, lol. but no, you just shoot them when they poke their heads over the edge to shoot down. you have to use the charged variant though, not the assault. I never ever use a charged variant. Ever. Just not worth the extra charge up time. Anyone decent with the forge will know exactly when to start charging. I might miss the first time but usually the second time is the charm. you usually can't get two shots on someone hiding on top of a building that's just poking their heads out when they shoot. you might be able to do it at first but then they're on to you. if you hold your charge you kill them when they come to the edge to shoot. but to each his own.
|
bethany valvetino
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
102
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 15:49:00 -
[12] - Quote
Kam Elto wrote:a forge gun on the ground can easily kill a forge gun high up. spec into one.
a gun that destroys vehicles/installations SHOULD be able to kill infantry also.
so no, it's not a problem.
I agree, and don't really see an issue.
Even a solid sniper will push back or diswade a FGunners, It's also... not that easy, the heavy suit is **** poor at scanning someone out, you have no zoom feature, so being high up and therefore further away from your target, makes aiming tricky and the splash from an FG is not that big.
Also, having to put up with that bloody noise as you weapon charges and remains so... ugh!!!!! |
Keri Starlight
Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
714
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 15:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
MassiveNine wrote: I'm sorry, but you keep saying "it makes the sniper rifle obsolete" and everyone here knows damn well that's not true.
By that I don't want to say there is no application for snipers, but that a Forge Gun from an elevated position is at least as efficient at killing people (if not better), but you can damage vehicles too... I hope you agree with this, if you're a Forge Gunner. I have a Forge Gunner character as well, with the Ishukone FG and 2 complex dmg mods on an A/1 series and honestly it's a much better area-denial instrument than an annoying sniper.
MassiveNine wrote: if you want to implement damage fall-off on the forge might as well do it to every other weapon in the game... amirite?
I think (correct me if I'm wrong... it might be) that every weapon does have damage or bullet/shell fall-off (Mass Driver, Plasma Cannon) except Swarm Launchers (well, they are missiles...) and the Forge Gun. I believe Snipers have it too, but their range is that good that you can't even render your enemies in your *optimal* range. |
Powerh8er
Norwegian Dust514 Corporation Top Men.
109
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 15:58:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ive said this a thousand times before and ill say it again, its not an Av weapon, never has, its anti material weapon.
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Adelia Lafayette
DUST University Ivy League
363
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 16:04:00 -
[15] - Quote
Keri Starlight wrote:MassiveNine wrote: I'm sorry, but you keep saying "it makes the sniper rifle obsolete" and everyone here knows damn well that's not true.
By that I don't want to say there is no application for snipers, but that a Forge Gun from an elevated position is at least as efficient at killing people (if not better), but you can damage vehicles too... I hope you agree with this, if you're a Forge Gunner. I have a Forge Gunner character as well, with the Ishukone FG and 2 complex dmg mods on an A/1 series and honestly it's a much better area-denial instrument than an annoying sniper. MassiveNine wrote: if you want to implement damage fall-off on the forge might as well do it to every other weapon in the game... amirite?
I think (correct me if I'm wrong... it might be) that every weapon does have damage or bullet/shell fall-off (Mass Driver, Plasma Cannon) except Swarm Launchers (well, they are missiles...) and the Forge Gun. I believe Snipers have it too, but their range is that good that you can't even render your enemies in your *optimal* range.
forge gun actually has a very small falloff range it goes full damage to 300meters then has about 20 or 40 meters where you can still hit at reduced damage. I noticed it when shooting a redline instillation I wasn't hitting for full damage. |
CharCharOdell
Shining Flame Amarr Empire
1125
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 16:05:00 -
[16] - Quote
It's too situational to be OP. They need a logo to set them up with hives and uplinks to be any good, and they also have to be in an elevated pos |
Keri Starlight
Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
717
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 16:06:00 -
[17] - Quote
Adelia Lafayette wrote: forge gun actually has a very small falloff range it goes full damage to 300meters then has about 20 or 40 meters where you can still hit at reduced damage. I noticed it when shooting a redline instillation I wasn't hitting for full damage.
Interesting. Thanks for the info. |
Chris F2112
High-Damage Public Disorder.
474
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 16:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
Forge guns needs to have a much reduced anti infantry capacity. Sure, all the forge gun users can sit here and talk because they want to maintain their crutch, but right now it's the best antivehicle weapon as well as a good anti-infantry weapon. There's really no give and take with it.
I've advocated removing it's 100% perfect accuracy, making the shots skew a few degrees from where you aim. That would effectively make forge gun sniping infantry impossible, while allowing forge guns to still hit vehicles from long range. |
Ku Shala
Planetary Response Organization Test Friends Please Ignore
579
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 16:10:00 -
[19] - Quote
Railguns kill infantry....... that is all |
chase rowland
The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 16:15:00 -
[20] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Its made as an AV weapon which it is fine for and i have no trouble with it
Big problem is that it is a superior weapon to use when killing infantry and requires free aim to do so
You can easily pull a 20-0 and use a milita FG if wanted granted it does require to be up high but once up high you are basically god and only a well placed OB will throw you off
But when this happened with swarms it was classed as broken and OP, that got fixed by being a lock on weapon and only for vehicles
So do you think the FG is OP against infantry?
Do you think the problem is the FG being up high?
Do you think its a combination of both problems?
Should the FG kill infantry?
Is it even a problem at all? If it is how would you fix it?
Also remember its basically a handheld version of a railgun except more damage and splash/radius so infantry would cry for the vehicle railgun to be also changed most likely because they are similiar so if a FG cant kill infantry then neither would the vehicle railgun for example
Thoughts?
i think its a HUGE issue. the only thing that would fix it is if you made it only effective to sheilds on dropsuits. also a railgun does less damage then a forge gun, which again is a MAJOR problem. if its handheld then why cant i duct-tape it on my tank? its a game killer. the only good counter is a forge itself (i know they have militia ones too that are very cheap and easy to fit) or a sniper rifle. even with a sniper rifle its near impossible to kill the damn thing and i have a charge.
the point is, it takes out all vehicle play, it requires you to stay in buildings as infantry, and kills any diverse options in the game besides close-indoor weaponry or a forge-sniper. |
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chase rowland
The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 16:20:00 -
[21] - Quote
it also kills heavys btw. we fattys on the ground with HMGs despise you guys. we cant run from you and we cant fight you. |
Tectonic Fusion
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
335
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 16:29:00 -
[22] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Its made as an AV weapon which it is fine for and i have no trouble with it
Big problem is that it is a superior weapon to use when killing infantry and requires free aim to do so
You can easily pull a 20-0 and use a milita FG if wanted granted it does require to be up high but once up high you are basically god and only a well placed OB will throw you off
But when this happened with swarms it was classed as broken and OP, that got fixed by being a lock on weapon and only for vehicles
So do you think the FG is OP against infantry?
Do you think the problem is the FG being up high?
Do you think its a combination of both problems?
Should the FG kill infantry?
Is it even a problem at all? If it is how would you fix it?
Also remember its basically a handheld version of a railgun except more damage and splash/radius so infantry would cry for the vehicle railgun to be also changed most likely because they are similiar so if a FG cant kill infantry then neither would the vehicle railgun for example
Thoughts?
Didn't it say something about being the most devastating infantry anti-infantry weapon? |
MassiveNine
0uter.Heaven
243
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 16:53:00 -
[23] - Quote
Chris F2112 wrote:Forge guns needs to have a much reduced anti infantry capacity. Sure, all the forge gun users can sit here and talk because they want to maintain their crutch, but right now it's the best antivehicle weapon as well as a good anti-infantry weapon. There's really no give and take with it.
I've advocated removing it's 100% perfect accuracy, making the shots skew a few degrees from where you aim. That would effectively make forge gun sniping infantry impossible, while allowing forge guns to still hit vehicles from long range.
lol. It's a solid mass of energy being expelled towards an object, why wouldn't it travel in a straight line? Sniper bullets don't curve to the left or right or drop off over distance, why should forge guns? A bullet is much more likely to stray of course than a ball of energy, wouldn't you think?
As it has been said before the problem with the forge gun is the infantry mentality. Stay close to cover, and I wont shoot you with my forge gun, how hard is that to understand? The range, splash damage, AND damage have all already been nerfed so why are people still crying. Just makes no sense. Sorry that your AR can't do 1300 damage at 300M but guess what, that's not what it was designed for, my forge gun was. I already have to run 2-4m slower than you a second, can't fit equipment slots, and I'm stuck with a sidearm at close range. I think you infantry want a medusa skill so all you have to do is look at me and I die.
The forge gun is the only decent weapon that heavy's have to use right now which is why you see so many of them. This problem would go away if CCP would actually give us SOMETHING different. The inbalance here is lack of choice for heavy's, it's one or the other there isn't an inbetween, sans light weapons. |
Smooth Assassin
Stardust incorporation
229
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 16:56:00 -
[24] - Quote
You should thank forge gunners for taking care of vehicles, when vehicles get buffed you'll beg for forge gunners |
Fire of Prometheus
DUST University Ivy League
586
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 16:57:00 -
[25] - Quote
I'm just tired of being sniped by a forge gun when I'm sniping.
Since when is a forge gun more accurate than a sniper? |
Fire of Prometheus
DUST University Ivy League
587
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 16:59:00 -
[26] - Quote
MassiveNine wrote:Chris F2112 wrote:Forge guns needs to have a much reduced anti infantry capacity. Sure, all the forge gun users can sit here and talk because they want to maintain their crutch, but right now it's the best antivehicle weapon as well as a good anti-infantry weapon. There's really no give and take with it.
I've advocated removing it's 100% perfect accuracy, making the shots skew a few degrees from where you aim. That would effectively make forge gun sniping infantry impossible, while allowing forge guns to still hit vehicles from long range. lol. It's a solid mass of energy being expelled towards an object, why wouldn't it travel in a straight line? Sniper bullets don't curve to the left or right or drop off over distance, why should forge guns? A bullet is much more likely to stray of course than a ball of energy, wouldn't you think? As it has been said before the problem with the forge gun is the infantry mentality. Stay close to cover, and I wont shoot you with my forge gun, how hard is that to understand? The range, splash damage, AND damage have all already been nerfed so why are people still crying. Just makes no sense. Sorry that your AR can't do 1300 damage at 300M but guess what, that's not what it was designed for, my forge gun was. I already have to run 2-4m slower than you a second, can't fit equipment slots, and I'm stuck with a sidearm at close range. I think you infantry want a medusa skill so all you have to do is look at me and I die. The forge gun is the only decent weapon that heavy's have to use right now which is why you see so many of them. This problem would go away if CCP would actually give us SOMETHING different. The inbalance here is lack of choice for heavy's, it's one or the other there isn't an inbetween, sans light weapons. It's not a mass of energy, it fires massive metal slugs at speeds upwards of 2500m/s. It is a rail gun, rail guns use magnets.....not plasma or whatever.
EDIT: stupid autocorrect |
Disturbingly Bored
The Strontium Asylum
764
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 17:14:00 -
[27] - Quote
chase rowland wrote:it also kills heavys btw. we fattys on the ground with HMGs despise you guys. we cant run from you and we cant fight you.
Hop. Seriously. If you're close enough to hit 'em with an HMG, the shots just sail right past you.
I learned the trick from a Heavy who mulched me in CQC when I planned on one-shotting him, been using it ever since.
Fire of Prometheus wrote:I'm just tired of being sniped by a forge gun when I'm sniping.
Since when is a forge gun more accurate than a sniper?
Learn from good snipers and move. Immobile snipers are free WP, but the ones who know how to move every few seconds, fire, and move again drive me absolutely bonkers. Intelligent charge-snipers are an annoying and very effective FG counter.
Last...
Confirming that the charge Forge Gun has its place. Ruining the day of someone using Gastun's or Kalaakiota on an inaccessible tower with a patient Militia FG shot is sadistic fun.
*DISCLAIMER: I make no argument whether the Forge Gun is balanced or imbalanced in its current state. Just sharing some info on winning the game as it currently plays. |
jamstar saa187
the third day Public Disorder.
55
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 17:21:00 -
[28] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Its made as an AV weapon .........
Really? Based on what exactly? the description says it's an 'anti-material' weapon.
as far as i know a clone is made of some sort of material too right? maybe i'm reading too much into that. |
Paran Tadec
TeamPlayers EoN.
1398
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 17:24:00 -
[29] - Quote
MassiveNine wrote:
lol. It's a solid mass of energy
Lol physics. |
Paran Tadec
TeamPlayers EoN.
1398
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 17:25:00 -
[30] - Quote
jamstar saa187 wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Its made as an AV weapon ......... Really? Based on what exactly? the description says it's an 'anti-material' weapon. as far as i know a clone is made of some sort of material too right? maybe i'm reading too much into that.
AntimateriEl
Materiel refers to military equipment, ie ammo dumps, vehicles, artillery, etc.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materiel |
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