DUST Search - [Suggestion] Video mock up to fix swarm issue for vehicles

Hobo on Fire wrote:

I don't like the idea of lighting up forge guns the same way though. Unlike the guided missiles, there is no lock on that would paint your dropship/LAV/HAV/gocart and thus no signal that would tell you "hey, someone's gunning for you." The idea of detecting the charge up of the forge gun is an idea, but leads to a slippery slope. HAVs and turret emplacements can also mount large railguns that charge before firing; a system that can detect a forge gun charging should pick these up as well. Charge sniper rifles are smaller, but operate on the same principal... do they get detected? If sniper rifles can be detected, what about scrambler rifles?

A possible solution (a variation on Silas Swakhammer' idea, really) could be that charging or holding a charged shot drastically increases that player's profile, to the point that they could be detected without line-of-sight or the use of active scanners. This would force players using such weapons to relocate between shots to not become sitting ducks. They wouldn't light up for the whole world to see, (like with a scan) but anyone looking in the general direction could detect them. I would like to see a system like this used for sniper rifles, if only to discourage camping in one spot.

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Judge Rhadamanthus Seraphim Auxiliaries 425	Posted - 2013.09.24 18:53:00 - [1] - Quote I thought rather than just pointing out issues, I would try to offer a solution. So from a dropship POV, although would be great for tanks too; here is a video where i added graphics to a real fight with a swarmer to show my suggestions to fix the radar and HUD to make it fairer. What do you think community and what you you think DEVs? Remember to set it to 720p The Video
lithkul devant Legions of Infinite Dominion 87	Posted - 2013.09.24 20:38:00 - [2] - Quote After watching your video, I came up with mixed conclusions about it. Let me list them. 1. Yes dropships should get notice when they are being locked onto so should tanks, but they should not get the exact location of where it is being fired from, as evidenced with you easily dispatching the AV when we hit you 3-4 times and only took off your shields and for only a brief moment dipped into your armor 2. No to forge gunners being noticed in a similar way, this would cause an unfair advantage for vehicles to pick up weapon types of infintry without giving good marker locations for vehicles, as can be noted with Lav's Hav's and dropships dur to how very limited player radar is. If such a thing was to be done, it would need to be done for everyone and would put a very slow moving suit into much more danger. 3. Swarm missiles should come with better distance and power against vehicles as noted by you being able to take multiple barrages from an advanced AV weapon 5 missiles per shot and being able to maintain full armor, be it though you had two repairers on, do remember you also are only flying in a tier 1 ship and the advanced and proto ships have not been unlocked yet or pushed into production. 4. Dropships should also come with better health and shields to be able to take the damage. 5. Vehicles in general need a complete retooling, your video was very educational and well presented and the idea in it should be implimented at least in part to provide a more realistic feel.
Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 990	Posted - 2013.09.24 22:34:00 - [3] - Quote I believe this is a great idea, and plus one to you. This needs a nice paint of blue...
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 6151	Posted - 2013.09.24 23:09:00 - [4] - Quote Great idea
Vesago Ghostcore Rejected Clones 22	Posted - 2013.09.24 23:48:00 - [5] - Quote awesome video, but it makes me sad... I have a complete inability to fly dropships. Id like to, but its not in the cards for me.
Silas Swakhammer GamersForChrist Orion Empire 205	Posted - 2013.09.25 01:06:00 - [6] - Quote This is a pretty cool idea, but I'm feeling a bit iffy about the infantry AV lighting up so easily. Maybe when they lock-on they appear like they would as if they've been weakly scanned, with the 'scan' strength increasing with multiple and extended lock-ons. A shot from forge gunners also hits them with a 'scan,' and multiple shots increases that scan, regardless of who or what they're shooting at. It would make sense that all vehicles have this lock-on head's up. Pilots/drivers should also get a text prompt (ENEMY LOCK-ON).
Hobo on Fire Goonfeet Top Men. 70	Posted - 2013.09.25 21:05:00 - [7] - Quote OP, as a proto-swarm user who loves reading posts by tankers crying to nerf AV, I really like your idea. I also agree with Silas that a text warning should appear while missiles are in the air. I would suggest a different color for the markers (perhaps a glowing red/orange, like scanned targets) but that's a minor issue. I don't like the idea of lighting up forge guns the same way though. Unlike the guided missiles, there is no lock on that would paint your dropship/LAV/HAV/gocart and thus no signal that would tell you "hey, someone's gunning for you." The idea of detecting the charge up of the forge gun is an idea, but leads to a slippery slope. HAVs and turret emplacements can also mount large railguns that charge before firing; a system that can detect a forge gun charging should pick these up as well. Charge sniper rifles are smaller, but operate on the same principal... do they get detected? If sniper rifles can be detected, what about scrambler rifles? A possible solution (a variation on Silas Swakhammer' idea, really) could be that charging or holding a charged shot drastically increases that player's profile, to the point that they could be detected without line-of-sight or the use of active scanners. This would force players using such weapons to relocate between shots to not become sitting ducks. They wouldn't light up for the whole world to see, (like with a scan) but anyone looking in the general direction could detect them. I would like to see a system like this used for sniper rifles, if only to discourage camping in one spot. Another idea would be for vehicle radars to trace the trajectory of forge or heavy railgun shots, pointing a direct line back to it's source. It wouldn't give you early warning, but a missed shot would clearly show on your radar that such a weapon was shooting in your direction, even if it doesn't cross your field of vision.
Silas Swakhammer GamersForChrist Orion Empire 214	Posted - 2013.09.26 01:45:00 - [8] - Quote Hobo on Fire wrote: I don't like the idea of lighting up forge guns the same way though. Unlike the guided missiles, there is no lock on that would paint your dropship/LAV/HAV/gocart and thus no signal that would tell you "hey, someone's gunning for you." The idea of detecting the charge up of the forge gun is an idea, but leads to a slippery slope. HAVs and turret emplacements can also mount large railguns that charge before firing; a system that can detect a forge gun charging should pick these up as well. Charge sniper rifles are smaller, but operate on the same principal... do they get detected? If sniper rifles can be detected, what about scrambler rifles? A possible solution (a variation on Silas Swakhammer' idea, really) could be that charging or holding a charged shot drastically increases that player's profile, to the point that they could be detected without line-of-sight or the use of active scanners. This would force players using such weapons to relocate between shots to not become sitting ducks. They wouldn't light up for the whole world to see, (like with a scan) but anyone looking in the general direction could detect them. I would like to see a system like this used for sniper rifles, if only to discourage camping in one spot. So, it kinda seems like you don't like the idea, then it seems you really like the idea cause you extrapolate it to snipers lol I still like the idea of forge gunners slowly lighting up as they hold a charge. That radar mechanic would only be viewable by pilots/drivers (more advanced scanners), and wouldn't be transferable to any sized rail guns (they spool up and don't hold charges). Scrambler ARs are different tech and are small arms fire. I despise snipers, but most are easy to kill cause they don't move around. The ones that move aren't exactly racking up the kills. I don't think they need an enhanced scan profile.
Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 998	Posted - 2013.09.26 02:24:00 - [9] - Quote Bubba bump.
Hobo on Fire Goonfeet Top Men. 70	Posted - 2013.09.26 03:03:00 - [10] - Quote Silas Swakhammer wrote: So, it kinda seems like you don't like the idea, then it seems you really like the idea cause you extrapolate it to snipers lol I still like the idea of forge gunners slowly lighting up as they hold a charge. That radar mechanic would only be viewable by pilots/drivers (more advanced scanners), and wouldn't be transferable to any sized rail guns (they spool up and don't hold charges). Scrambler ARs are different tech and are small arms fire. I despise snipers, but most are easy to kill cause they don't move around. The ones that move aren't exactly racking up the kills. I don't think they need an enhanced scan profile. I would actually like it if firing any weapon temporarily increased your profile (if dropsuits can have radar, why not audio receivers?) but that's an argument for another thread. I'll stress that I do like your idea, there just may be more than one way to accomplish the same result. The problem with detecting forge guns is that they don't lock on to a specific target. The vehicle (ground or air) has no way to know it's being targeted. Any enemy forge gun within range would have to light up on the HUD/radar, regardless of whether he's shooting at you, a different vehicle, an installation, or even trying to pick off infantry. Does the pilot really need to detect every forge gunner on the map any time they fire? This is why I suggested the idea of tracing the trajectory of forge gun projectiles across the radar, really more as an alternative than an addition. If you start seeing big lines flashing across your radar, you know you need to evade before one of them finds you. I brought up heavy railguns in my post because they can be just as deadly to dropships as forge guns, and anyone who can find a turret installation can use one. If Swarms are announcing themselves when they lock on, and forge gunners are glowing like they've been scanned or shots are streaking across the radar, pilots need a way to detect rail shots too.

Silas Swakhammer GamersForChrist Orion Empire 216	Posted - 2013.09.26 04:36:00 - [11] - Quote Hobo on Fire wrote: Does the pilot really need to detect every forge gunner on the map any time they fire? I believe this would be useful. Hobo on Fire wrote: If Swarms are announcing themselves when they lock on, and forge gunners are glowing like they've been scanned or shots are streaking across the radar, pilots need a way to detect rail shots too. This makes sense, too. The rail/forge gun trail left on a pilot's radar doesn't seem entirely feasible. Hmm, instead of forge gunners popping up, or possibly in addition to them popping up, pilots get messages warning of close, heavy weapons fire (idk, maybe, "PROXIMITY ALERT: HEAVY AV FIRE") whenever a redberry is firing at them, or a redberry in the immediate area is charging a forge gun.
Hobo on Fire Goonfeet Top Men. 70	Posted - 2013.09.26 19:16:00 - [12] - Quote Silas Swakhammer wrote: The rail/forge gun trail left on a pilot's radar doesn't seem entirely feasible. Hmm, instead of forge gunners popping up, or possibly in addition to them popping up, pilots get messages warning of close, heavy weapons fire (idk, maybe, "PROXIMITY ALERT: HEAVY AV FIRE") whenever a redberry is firing at them, or a redberry in the immediate area is charging a forge gun. I don't think rail or forge gun trails on the radar are any less feasible than displaying the swarms in flight on the radar, as the OP simulated in his video, but you're right in that it may not be something CCP can implement without difficulty. Text warnings, on the other hand, should be fairly simple. Since infantry get a warning for nearby grenades, there is obviously some capability to detect nearby projectiles. A variation of the grenade indicator would probably be the simplest way to warn of incoming swarms, as they would just need to display the warning as soon as the salvo is fired instead of basing it on proximity. I'm not sure if that system would be flexible enough to adapt it for high speed projectiles like forge or railgun shots though.
Judge Rhadamanthus Seraphim Auxiliaries 475	Posted - 2013.09.26 20:22:00 - [13] - Quote Remember that the AR, plasma cannon, swarm smoke and almost every weapon has a trail. I imagine this is a client side effect. All they need to do is enable for pilots only a trail for the forge or a blip on the radar. The solution i suggested uses assets already in the game. Yes it's more processing but the engine knows I am being targeted. I can't imagine too many overheads with my proposal.
Cosgar ParagonX 5508	Posted - 2013.09.27 10:35:00 - [14] - Quote You made the weekly suggestions.
Judge Rhadamanthus Seraphim Auxiliaries 476	Posted - 2013.09.27 11:50:00 - [15] - Quote Cosgar wrote: You made the weekly suggestions. Nicely spotted. Also thats pretty cool. I have a thread in general as the traffic is higher. Also it was a really polite and constructive thread. I think when people can see exactly what it would be like in the game it makes the idea clear and helps stop misunderstandings and thus arguments.
Silas Swakhammer GamersForChrist Orion Empire 221	Posted - 2013.09.27 17:02:00 - [16] - Quote Cosgar wrote: You made the weekly suggestions. WOO HOO
CharCharOdell Shining Flame Amarr Empire 1027	Posted - 2013.09.27 20:37:00 - [17] - Quote Wtf do you mean, CCP, when you want videos of rendering problems with swarms?! Get in a tank for one game and you'll see it happen in the first 5 min
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 787	Posted - 2013.10.05 11:36:00 - [18] - Quote CharCharOdell wrote: Wtf do you mean, CCP, when you want videos of rendering problems with swarms?! Get in a tank for one game and you'll see it happen in the first 5 min I know! They keep saying they don't see the problem and I keep saying because you cannot see the swarms! Language barriers no doubt. We are talking and they are not listening.
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 787	Posted - 2013.10.05 11:44:00 - [19] - Quote I replied in the General forum posting but this is the one that got noticed. On the off chance they are ignoring the feedback from the other I am duplicating it here. I apologize up front and if you have read my other then just ignore this duplicate. --- First the good. I like the idea for Swarms. It is unclear how much effort that would take from a Software Dev point of view and Lock On Detection had been mentioned in the past. Whether it is on the plate, back burner or in the trash is unknown, of course. The other is I don't think that it will work for Forge Guns. They have no lock. Just detecting all Forge Gun Charge Up or those FG that are Currently Charged is unrealistic. Most are not actually aiming at you. I use FG and Drop Ships are only interesting targets once the Tanks have been destroyed, Installations are down and the DS is within or headed to my very limited range. If they are actively targeting or defending a position they escalate as targets quickly. Past that you are invisible at outer quarter of the map. Getting into the map screen will get you kill more often than not so finding your invisible DS is double difficult to someone on the ground. I would prefer simple weapon trails. Just a line showing missile trails (or their aggregate trail) and the same for FG. We used to have that in game. Now we are proposing adding more code to offset what the Draw Distance Cut-Off has caused. I doubt if it will be well received by CCP/Shanghai. Their coding skills have been stressed to the maximum as it is. Past that in my opinion, obviously. I would rather drop the graphic detail and un-break the basic game mechanics. Drop Ships that disappear, tankers that cannot see targets and many other complaints would be eliminated. Although, true be told, we would lose the pretty, pretty grass that is so immersion breaking as it grows while you walk by. Copied from: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=111974&find=unread As to the comment on the lore for Swarms I would have to agree. The Swarms do a image capture and try to find that image, thus allowing the turning corners trick. That would prevent lock on detection because it is just a camera. However, they have just recently (1.4) ignored the lore on the TacNet and removed all the data that we used to see. So ignoring lore is a common methodology with CCP/Shanghai. Just a simple line showing the trail on the mini-map would make a big difference and, hopefully, be much less work.
Judge Rhadamanthus Seraphim Auxiliaries 506	Posted - 2013.10.05 12:36:00 - [20] - Quote It's interesting kaloftherathi that you mention forge range. I address that in my next (not ready yet) video. I have a AV alt and so know the effective range of forge guns. I should clarify that I include misses as effective shots. Asset destruction is as valid a tactic for victory as asset area denial. A forge can shoot effectively as 300m (my personal best is 276m against a stationary DS) . Looking at a maps total area does limit the forge effectiveness. But thats not how the maps are laid out nor how they are played. In my video I use Line Harvest and manus peak. A single forge gun, in one of many many locations can cover up to 90% of the effective air space (containng assets) and 100% of objectives in a skirmish map (line Harvest and manus peak for example). Range is not a limitation for that weapon. Weapon trails are not a very good solution. I cannot see the rear third of my ship or airspace. Shots from those directions are undetectable until they have hot me, making a trail useless. The issue is that with so much alpha I should be able to prep modules for incoming attack as that is where CCP has put my EHP. If I had no modules then no warning would be fairer. As for lore, there are always easy electronic screwdrivers that can bypass any restriction. A camera is a device. It may be a passive lock on but it has perhaps a lens that would absorb more light than surroundings allowing for detection, or give off a particular electronic signature. Or just simply my dropship can spot players using hull cameras and match their image profiles against what a swarm holding and pointing player looks like, thus pinpoint him. Or the missiles give of a signature during pre-launch...we could come up with something.

Meeko Fent DUST University Ivy League 1185	Posted - 2013.10.05 14:27:00 - [21] - Quote Justa reminder.
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 819	Posted - 2013.10.15 03:16:00 - [22] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: -- snip -- Forge Gun range is 300m. 299m kills and 301 misses. That was a result of a Ninja Nerf from Hammer Wielding Wang. I had gotten kills at 900m+ previously as well as been killed while sniping by a forge gun. At nearly 1km. Also, you negate the actual effect of squads. Any squad on top of a structure is just as disruptive to infantry, air and tanks. Those on the high ground need to be taken out, regardless of what you are running. A tank on top of those same structures are less effective because they cannot see as far as a forge gunner or a swam operator. We used to have weapon trails is my point. Before Uprising frowed up on the graphics and nuked draw distance to 1/3 of its original distance weapon trails appeared on the mini-map and you could see them as they hit the target (be that you or the supply depot you are trying to protect). Well, look over there because the mini-map had a direction arrow showing exactly where the weapon was fired from. That is now gone because ... nothing gets drawn that cannot be seen and there isn't enough time for their client/server architecture to adapt to get all the clients and the server to agree on what to draw. Solution, don't draw much. Except grass. Man, them Devs loves them some grass. Now, everything is invisible and it is because the art is more important than the game. These problems are specific to Uprising. You are trying to add complexity to solve the problem. I would prefer to solve the problem by CCP/Shanghai not breaking the most basic function of a FPS. Seeing your target, thus allowing to see who is shooting as well.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 524	Posted - 2013.10.15 08:28:00 - [23] - Quote The problem is not solely one of rendering. That same scenario when the enemy did renfer would still be flawed and unbalanced. Lets assume enemies render at 400 meters, the range of swarms. At that distance the swarm player is a few pixels at most. But I am not only easily visible but his weapon has a auto lock-on so he can both see and hit me easily. A sniper shooting infantry has similar advantages with big differences to add some balance. His bullets don't track so he needs skill to hit. A sniper cannot be out of sight with two shots in the air. He needs los and is visible at the time of the hit A swarmer at 400m can easily target and hit a dropship. He does not even need to remain exposed after he fires. he can be inside a building getting a coffee in complete safety before his first two volleys hit. If swarms launchers have these massive advantages then dropships need some ability to respond. I need time to apply modules, find cover. Thats the issue. Rendering is just a one part of it.


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