DUST Search - I finally figured out the problem with Dust as an MMO

I-Shayz-I wrote:

Go look up Resistance 2 Soldier gameplay and tell me that's not super fun to have a gigantic shield in front of you, a bonus that resists damage, all the while using a HMG to clear a path through the waves of enemies. You still do some killing, but you get a ton of points for keeping the team alive by using that shield as cover for your allies, and getting hit by bullets.

YOU GET POINTS FOR TAKING DAMAGE! Is that not awesome or what?

I'm not saying that Heavies shouldn't be able to do a ton of damage AT ALL, but if they want to do that they have to give up their power to "tank". In Resistance 2, the shield was only on the HMG, so if you wanted to use a weapon with more direct killing power you needed to also give up your giant shield.

Basically, there needs to be more of a balance between damage and health, that's all I'm trying to get across. BESIDES, did you not even read how I explained the problem with the heavy role only designed to get kills? And the worst part about being a heavy is that you're not very good at getting kills?

I'm fully aware of the problem, I have HMG and Forge Proficiency 3, I use my heavy suit all the time, and I'm not just another run and gun Assault (I usually logi, and SUPPORT you heavies)

Pages: [1] :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
I-Shayz-I Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 952	Posted - 2013.09.21 12:31:00 - [1] - Quote Dust is supposed to be a game about being able to choose whatever playstyle you want and not be limited to a class or a role or a gun. You can choose to do anything from being a support tank to a heavy sniper to a speedy guy with explosives. Most MMO's have a "system" where players work as a team using their own personal skills to fulfill their role and help everyone win. If you don't know what I'm talking about, I'm going to give you a quick example of what it would be like if this sort of "system" was in Dust. _____________________________________ You have the Heavy who is supposed to soak up all the damage. This player usually isn't supposed to deal a lot of damage, but can still hold his own against another player if he needs to. His main job is to make sure the other more squishy players stay alive by staying in front and keeping other players shooting at him. Next you have the Assault/Scout guy. These are the ones who do the most damage, but usually have the least amount of health or survivability. They get most of the kills, but are also killed the most. Their main goal is to take down the opponent before their squad can be taken down. By eliminating the threat as fast as possible, you run less of a risk of your squad taking a ton of damage. These are also the players who can help support the team with nanohives and revives, but it isn't their main job. The last is the Logistics or support. They have to keep the team alive and healthy, while making sure not to get themselves killed in the process. These players usually have more health and regeneration than other players, but they can't do a lot of damage and rely on other players to kill things for them. With that in mind, the logistics can still do a lot for the team and usually ends up scoring the most points, but it's probably the hardest job, and there's not a lot of them. ___________________________ Resistance 2 co-op is another great example of this mechanic working PERFECTLY in an FPS. However, Dust doesn't use this at all and allows you to do whatever you want to be. This is why there is a problem. See, the idea for Dust is great, and works well, but everyone just chooses whatever is the best for themselves. There is no reason to play as part of a larger team because you can do equally well by yourself. If there were more disadvantages for choosing to do one thing (for instance choosing to have lots of health reduces your ability to do damage or be supportive, but also increases your resistance to things, whereas if you wanted to do lots of damage, there would be no way to have a lot of health unless you were not able to regenerate it quickly.), this game would be so much better. See, the only suit that relies on other players is the heavy. They have to get health, ammo, support fire, and a squad just to be effective. Lostistics don't rely on other players to do damage, and assaults don't rely on other players to keep them alive. This NEEDS to change. ___________________________ TLDR: Dust is a game where you can be a Tank (have a ton of health), DPS (Do a ton of damage), and be self sufficient for healing (natural shield regen) all at the same time. There is no reason to be a heavy to tank because there is no REWARD for tanking. You don't get points for soaking up bullets, and there's no way for you to resist any of the damage. The worst part being that you only have slightly more health than a tanked assault, which means you're just as easily killed as any other player. The only points heavies earn are for their kills, and even the HMG doesn't kill as effectively as an AR. This is a huge problem as heavies shouldn't have their main income of points being from kills anyways, that's not what they should be designed to do, but there is literally no other option for heavies. There is no reason to be a dedicated support because your team wins by having the most players with an AR, and tons of prototype suits with tons of health. Besides, you can't even heal fast enough, there are no splash heals (repairing players in an area of effect), and you are limited for the points you can earn (even though killing is never limited). ___________________________ STLDR: You can be a Tank, DPS, and Support all at the same time in this game, and that's just not cool or fun, especially when the team that wins is the team with the most of these players. Players need to be more reliant on other players, which would make the whole experience more enjoyable, interesting, and balanced. Resistance 2 co-op is what Dust NEEDS to be. That, or something like Battlefront. Not this weird middleground thing that doesn't know if it's trying to be one thing or another.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1319	Posted - 2013.09.21 12:45:00 - [2] - Quote I blame tiers. Tiers are exactly what are causing this problem you mention of 'where you can be a tank, DPS and be self sufficient for healing all at the same time'. Because when you go up a tier, THERE ARE NO DRAWBACKS. No weaknesses or penalties, but all your strengths become stronger. Instead of std -> adv -> pro, upgrading the operation skill for an item should instead unlock variants which specialise in a certain aspect of the item but is weaker in others. The active scanner is a perfect example of what item progression should look like. As you upgrade the skill, you don't get a scanner that is in all ways better, but you unlock scanners which have better range for less angle, or longer duration for longer cooldown, etc.
Shion Typhon Intara Direct Action Caldari State 263	Posted - 2013.09.21 12:53:00 - [3] - Quote OK, firstly, just to be clear, this isn't an MMO, this is a lobby shooter. You have a very limited number of players engaged in a limited time match. If Dust is an MMO, so is CoD. Its simply an FPS with some RPG-lite elements to it (ie skills) There are plenty of FPS on the market that mimic what you have suggested. Team Fortress 2 essentially does what you say, so does Planetside 2 and others. The trouble is Dust is essentially a variant of Quake/Unreal where the movement style and gun style is close quarters run-n-gun. The ones that do what you want are generally class based games, which as you say Dust isn't.
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2177	Posted - 2013.09.21 12:55:00 - [4] - Quote Tiericde is a must. I feel like Tech 1 and Tech 2 general standardisations should be implemented. Standardised suit stats, the only diff between tech 1 and 2 being suit bonuses, which are more role specific between corporate and factionalised suits at the cost of certain skills or aspects of game. This Tech2 ships in EVE. Logi Ships are logi ships, ECM ships are heavly pushed to ECM roles, Combat Ships to specific turret types and range bonuses.
Shion Typhon Intara Direct Action Caldari State 263	Posted - 2013.09.21 13:03:00 - [5] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Tiericde is a must. I feel like Tech 1 and Tech 2 general standardisations should be implemented. Standardised suit stats, the only diff between tech 1 and 2 being suit bonuses, which are more role specific between corporate and factionalised suits at the cost of certain skills or aspects of game. This Tech2 ships in EVE. Logi Ships are logi ships, ECM ships are heavly pushed to ECM roles, Combat Ships to specific turret types and range bonuses. EVE tiercide is slightly different, in EVE Tech 2 ships are substantially stronger than their T1 base counterparts, as well as having their role abilities. But I know what you mean.
dazlb72 HELGHAN EXILES 69	Posted - 2013.09.21 13:09:00 - [6] - Quote what's eve?
Blaze Ashra Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 19	Posted - 2013.09.21 13:17:00 - [7] - Quote Not a big fan of forced reliance and restrictions. Kinda the reason I quit playing DCUO. Everyone wants to dps, don't give a damn about surviving or limiting power consumption and just brute force their way to victory just because of stats... Then when things go badly rather then adjusting hours of petty arguing and drama over whose not doing there job and stuff. So yeah it would force players to be less self sufficient and is great in theory but for me this is much better.
Hellkeizer The Avutora Complex 104	Posted - 2013.09.21 14:51:00 - [8] - Quote dazlb72 wrote: what's eve? And this is why I laugh at those who say that EVE connection could save this game. Also I'm not insulting you daz if you think I am. Edit:I forgot to apologize for derailing the thread, sorry Shayz
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 1556	Posted - 2013.09.21 14:54:00 - [9] - Quote Your argument seems to be based on MMOs in which the only skill factors are decision making & timing. Introducing a gunplay mechanic over that bring in a whole other bunch of variables.
Aaroniero d'Lioncourt The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 93	Posted - 2013.09.21 15:19:00 - [10] - Quote dazlb72 wrote: what's eve? Eve is that girl rapper.

GTA V FTW Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 97	Posted - 2013.09.21 15:47:00 - [11] - Quote MMO wait this game is supposed to be a MMO. Broke game is broke game is more like it.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6431	Posted - 2013.09.21 15:48:00 - [12] - Quote DUST is an MMO in much the same way that Halo is an RPG. It's not.
GVGMODE WorstPlayersEver 33	Posted - 2013.09.21 15:59:00 - [13] - Quote The owner of the tank is the player carrying most of the risk,if people wanted to play tanks in a "team" frame they should carry the ISK risk too :)
Poplo Furuya Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 717	Posted - 2013.09.21 18:50:00 - [14] - Quote In response to title the problem is that it simply isn't an MMO, it's a lobby shooter. Semantics aside what you're getting at is a real problem, Dust fails to promote diversity and interesting teamplay. It's complete failure to be the MMO it sells itself as is a different issue entirely. As you laid out part of the problem is the fact that medium frames can enjoy sturdiness, firepower, mobility, self-healing and either resupply or some other auxiliary function, all on their lonesome. Best of all worlds. Generalists are not currently jack of all trades, they're the king or queen. Sometimes they're the ace with the actual specialised role being the king. Aside from that there's game modes and maps. Not much in the way of diverse roles or gambits being encouraged by either. Hopefully Skirmish 3.0 will rectify this, we certainly need an asymmetric game mode. If we're very lucky the maps will also give HAVs a role, make 'em an important defensive force and the momentum provider for a defence-breaking push. Dropships might also see a new lease of life if there's finally a compelling reason to airdrop a squad in a position of power overlooking the main fray. Alternately if there's an indoor objective then they could be quickly dropped at one of the entrances, bypassing the enemies on the field. They rapidly rush in and set up killzones at the indoor chokepoints, holding the line while the objective is worked on. Skirmish 2.0 is a really bad game mode. It's a large part of the problem. Unfocused, neutral, symmetric. The lack of focus splits the 32 players across 4 to 5 objectives, 2 or 3 notable areas of terrain around each and doesn't encourage defence. I could go on all day about the problems with 2.0 so I'll just ask a question which highlight one of them: how often do you see a 16 v 16 battle where all 32 combatants are present in a single firefight?
Master Jaraiya Ultramarine Corp 863	Posted - 2013.09.21 19:07:00 - [15] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: You have the Heavy who is supposed to soak up all the damage. This player usually isn't supposed to deal a lot of damage, What a bunch of malarkey. I honestly stopped reading here. So, according to you, the Heavy is supposed to be nothing more than a glorified bullet sponge so you assault players can have fun killing enemies and getting high scores. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ________ . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . ,.-GÇÿGÇ¥. . . . . . . . . .``~., . . . . . . . .. . . . . .,.-GÇ¥. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .GÇ£-., . . . . .. . . . . . ..,/. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . GÇ¥:, . . . . . . . .. .,?. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\, . . . . . . . . . /. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,} . . . . . . . . ./. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:`^`.} . . . . . . . ./. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:GÇ¥. . . ./ . . . . . . .?. . . __. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . :`. . . ./ . . . . . . . /__.(. . .GÇ£~-,_. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:`. . . .. ./ . . . . . . /(_. . GÇ¥~,_. . . ..GÇ£~,_. . . . . . . . . .,:`. . . . _/ . . . .. .{.._$;_. . .GÇ¥=,_. . . .GÇ£-,_. . . ,.-~-,}, .~GÇ¥; /. .. .} . . .. . .((. . .~_. . . .GÇ¥=-._. . .GÇ£;,,./`. . /GÇ¥ . . . ./. .. ../ . . . .. . .\`~,. . ..GÇ£~.,. . . . . . . . . ..`. . .}. . . . . . ../ . . . . . .(. ..`=-,,. . . .`. . . . . . . . . . . ..(. . . ;_,,-GÇ¥ . . . . . ../.`~,. . ..`-.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..\. . /\ . . . . . . \`~.-,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..\|,./.....\,__ ,,_. . . . . }.>-._\. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\|. . . . . . ..`=~-, . .. `=~-,_\_. . . `\,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\ . . . . . . . . . .`=~-,,.\,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . `:,, . . . . . . . . . . . . . `\. . . . . . ..__ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .`=-,. . . . . . . . . .,%`>--==`` . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . _\. . . . . ._,-%. . . ..` The biggest guns in the game, should do the most damage period. What sets a Heavy apart is his absolute dependence on a support role to be close to him at all times.
I-Shayz-I Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 957	Posted - 2013.09.21 19:25:00 - [16] - Quote Master Jaraiya wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: You have the Heavy who is supposed to soak up all the damage. This player usually isn't supposed to deal a lot of damage, What a bunch of malarkey. I honestly stopped reading here. So, according to you, the Heavy is supposed to be nothing more than a glorified bullet sponge so you assault players can have fun killing enemies and getting high scores The biggest guns in the game, should do the most damage period. What sets a Heavy apart is his absolute dependence on a support role to be close to him at all times. Go look up Resistance 2 Soldier gameplay and tell me that's not super fun to have a gigantic shield in front of you, a bonus that resists damage, all the while using a HMG to clear a path through the waves of enemies. You still do some killing, but you get a ton of points for keeping the team alive by using that shield as cover for your allies, and getting hit by bullets. YOU GET POINTS FOR TAKING DAMAGE! Is that not awesome or what? I'm not saying that Heavies shouldn't be able to do a ton of damage AT ALL, but if they want to do that they have to give up their power to "tank". In Resistance 2, the shield was only on the HMG, so if you wanted to use a weapon with more direct killing power you needed to also give up your giant shield. Basically, there needs to be more of a balance between damage and health, that's all I'm trying to get across. BESIDES, did you not even read how I explained the problem with the heavy role only designed to get kills? And the worst part about being a heavy is that you're not very good at getting kills? I'm fully aware of the problem, I have HMG and Forge Proficiency 3, I use my heavy suit all the time, and I'm not just another run and gun Assault (I usually logi, and SUPPORT you heavies)
I-Shayz-I Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 957	Posted - 2013.09.21 19:43:00 - [17] - Quote As for everyone else who keeps arguing the whole MMO thing, just... Go look up some Resistance 2 co-op gameplay. PLEASE DO. Resistance 2 put the MMO roles into a FPS and did it BEAUTIFULLY well. Soldier: -Has a giant HMG with a shield that protects other players -High health, medium damage -Gets points for taking damage and dealing damage -Special abilities including damage resist and rage -Relies on spec ops for ammo for shield/HMG, medic to keep him topped off in health. Spec Ops -Has a scoped burst AR with AOE shots that zap multiple foes at once. -High damage, low health -Gets points for headshots, dealing damage, supplying ammo (only class with ammo) -Special abilities including invisibility and a giant laser -Relies on the heavy for cover, medic to keep the cover alive Medic: -Primary weapon is a laser that sucks life from enemies, creates healing bursts for allies. -Low damage, medium health, able to constantly heal self with primary weapon. -Gets points for healing, also has a ton of AOE grenades for burst damage. -Special abilities include instantly reviving self, faster revivals than anyone else, healing circle, slowing -Relies on everyone else to do damage, Spec Ops for healing ammo I just wish Dust could be as fun as this game once was.
Skihids Bullet Cluster 2143	Posted - 2013.09.21 20:02:00 - [18] - Quote There are two reasons we don't have more diversity: 1) Every game mode essentially boils down to TDM. There is no challenge that cannont be overcome by "more DPS". When every problem is a nail, the only tool you need is a hammer. 2) The majority of the playerbase seems to glorify the Assautl role and KDR. They complained that the Logis were playing assault too much, and then they complained that Logis were too effective at their support function and asked for a nerf. So basically you are Assault or you are a butler who should know his place.
Master Jaraiya Ultramarine Corp 864	Posted - 2013.09.21 20:11:00 - [19] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Go look up Resistance 2 Soldier gameplay and tell me that's not super fun to have a gigantic shield in front of you, a bonus that resists damage, all the while using a HMG to clear a path through the waves of enemies. You still do some killing, but you get a ton of points for keeping the team alive by using that shield as cover for your allies, and getting hit by bullets. YOU GET POINTS FOR TAKING DAMAGE! Is that not awesome or what? I'm not saying that Heavies shouldn't be able to do a ton of damage AT ALL, but if they want to do that they have to give up their power to "tank". In Resistance 2, the shield was only on the HMG, so if you wanted to use a weapon with more direct killing power you needed to also give up your giant shield. Basically, there needs to be more of a balance between damage and health, that's all I'm trying to get across. BESIDES, did you not even read how I explained the problem with the heavy role only designed to get kills? And the worst part about being a heavy is that you're not very good at getting kills? I'm fully aware of the problem, I have HMG and Forge Proficiency 3, I use my heavy suit all the time, and I'm not just another run and gun Assault (I usually logi, and SUPPORT you heavies) If Heavies could get points for tanking damage, I would never fail to top the scoreboards lol. I don't think a Heavy should have to give up their power to tank in order to deal massive damage. Do a small amount of research into the GE M134 Minigun. Look at the devastation it causes. That thing can wreck anything in its path, at a much longer range than any AR known to man. A man-portable version was prototyped, but the only reasons it was never viable is because of the amount of ammo it burns through, the cumbersome powersource, and the massive amount of recoil it produced. All of these drawbacks are easily overcome by a 9' tall Merc outfitted in an Armor Suit specially designed to support such weapons and "stand toe to toe with some vehicles" LOL In DUST, however, we have this neutered p.o.s. HMG, that can hardly kill anything outside of grenade range. which is perfect for us Heavies, considering we are too slow to run away from the grenades lobbed at us when someone actually does come into our range. Oh, and god forbid we actually had damage resistance or enough HP to tank 1 grenade. I guess that would be OP though. The balance between our LOLdamage and our LOLhp is that we cannot sustain ourselves for very long at all. We have to have a support class player with us to be effective at all. We cant evade incoming damage, we cant tank it, and we can barely fight back. Heavies are nothing but a liability except in the most optimal of circumstances. (Standing on a bed of triage and ammo hives with a Core Focused Rep Tool Locked on us at the end of a choke point.) Anyway /rant Thanks for the logi love!
Torneido Achura Suicidal Business Inc. 42	Posted - 2013.09.21 22:48:00 - [20] - Quote Protos are ruining the game since Uprising, PC and the respecs of that time AR being the weapon with the least drawbacks pays off really hard in the proto version, making that one utterly unstoppable AA(with its bullet magnetism) is ruining the game since 1.4 (bullets that pierce through walls, so frickin funny ) Hacks should give 500 WP, at least, to make this part more important etc, etc, etc.. Tiercide and more work into that AA would go places, all places, as a result gameplay/playerbase/etc would be seriously buffed, and the qq would be nerfed, hard. But as previously said in much places, looks like CCP has other plans for Dust, making it more casual to attract new players; nevertheless this will be a huge mistake cuz it doesnGÇÖt matter that they make something more user friendly if in the end that thing(Dust) has so much shi*** things, broken things, incomplete things, CCP could gain some new players with this new direction but in the end it will end up losing new and old players alike.



Pages: [1] :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page