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DJINN leukoplast
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
1299
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 07:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
I find it is difficult to explain to tankers what infantry goes through when dealing with tanks. But I came up with a simple way to illustrate it.
Scenario - It is a bizarre paralell universe in Dust 514, in which most of the players in every the match are using tanks. Infantry coming into the match is rare, but on average there is at least 1-2 infantry players amongst all the tankers.
Rules - Tanks have 3 choices in terms of weaponry:
Choice #1 - Tank has weapons designed for taking out other tanks, but do nothing to infantry players. Choice #2 - Tank has weapons designed for taking out infantry players, but have no defense whatsoever against other tanks. Choice #3 - Tank has a moderately powerful anti-infantry weapon, but it's range is extremely limited, uses up a valuable weapon slot and uses more CPU/PG than a anti-tank weapon.
Choice #1 - Leaves the tanker completely exposed to infantry AV players. Infantry players can literally walk right up next to the tank and do whatever they please with no way for the tank to fight back. Their only choice in this scenario is hope they can hide, or if they die, come back with an anti-infantry option to hopefully prevent the infantry player from being able to do this again.
Choice #2 - Since the match is comprised mostly of other tanks, this is a very tricky situation. This tanker chose to hunt down the pesky AV player that previously had 100% advantage over them, but they are completely vulnerable to every one of the other 15 tankers on the field. At this point it would be pure luck to avoid certain death by the tankers that are specifically hunting other enemy tanks. And to add insult to injury, once the AV infantry player knows the tank now has anti-infantry weapons, they go into hiding or switch to their tank fitting via the instant-dropsuit-recall feature.
Choice #3 - After the tankers past experiences, they figure they would choose the option which still lets them be somewhat powerful against other tanks, but also have an anti-infantry option as well. However not all goes well, as they find that the tank they chose was a poor choice for that match, as there wasn't a single infantry player on the field at all. Which left them more vulnerable to the other tanks. So after dying by the hands of a more powerful tank equipped with option #1, they decide to bring back their full-tank setup... but lo-and-behold, pretty much as soon as they do an AV infantry player appears on the field, and promptly wipes the floor with the tanker. So once again the tanker decides on choice #3, thinking it is the best choice for both anti-tank and anti-infantry. But this time the tanker is out-ranged by the AV player, and since the tanks anti-infantry weapon is so limited in range, they lose again.
Hope that clears things up a bit for tankers. Just imagine if you only had those 3 choices in a game comprised mostly of other tankers.
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Void Echo
Morsus Mihi Aperuitque Imperium
1340
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 07:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
DJINN leukoplast wrote:I find it is difficult to explain to tankers what infantry goes through when dealing with tanks.
we find it difficult to explain to infantry what pilots go though when dealing with you guys.... we are having trouble finding a way to explain it so even a caveman can understand. |
Spkr4theDead
International-Fleet
722
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 07:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
Get behind the wheel of a Gunnlogi / Madrugar for a month, to see how it feels, before YOU try to tell US how it is.
I have AV. It's pathetically easy to use. My main problem is getting a good enough spot. After that, I hope the smoke from the wreckage doesn't clog my suit's filters.
You admit to spending the vast majority of your time in ambush. You've also said you run solo. Both of your problems are right there. |
DJINN Marauder
Ancient Exiles
1225
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 07:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
Regardless of what you tankers say, what leuko says in his post are pretty much what infantry have to deal with lol. Except its a lot cheaper.
Tanks do need a buff tho. |
Chances Ghost
Inf4m0us
853
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 07:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
doesnt matter rendering issues means tanks are blind. :P |
DJINN leukoplast
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
1301
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 07:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
Void Echo wrote:DJINN leukoplast wrote:I find it is difficult to explain to tankers what infantry goes through when dealing with tanks. we find it difficult to explain to infantry what pilots go though when dealing with you guys.... we are having trouble finding a way to explain it so even a caveman can understand.
Pretty sure I just managed. So please, humor us. |
Void Echo
Morsus Mihi Aperuitque Imperium
1341
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 07:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
DJINN leukoplast wrote:Void Echo wrote:DJINN leukoplast wrote:I find it is difficult to explain to tankers what infantry goes through when dealing with tanks. we find it difficult to explain to infantry what pilots go though when dealing with you guys.... we are having trouble finding a way to explain it so even a caveman can understand. Pretty sure I just managed. So please, humor us.
id rather not.
im just here to point out the mistakes every one of you make when your trying to dictate how this game should work.
btw, youv made a lot of mistakes |
DJINN leukoplast
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
1301
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 07:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote: You admit to spending the vast majority of your time in ambush. You've also said you run solo. Both of your problems are right there.
So you're saying the only viable way for me to counter tanks is squads and skirmish? Only wish infantry was lucky enough to have such prerequisites. |
Spkr4theDead
International-Fleet
722
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 07:27:00 -
[9] - Quote
DJINN Marauder wrote:Regardless of what you tankers say, what leuko says in his post are pretty much what infantry have to deal with lol. Except its a lot cheaper.
Tanks do need a buff tho. LOL No it's not. It's easy to kill tanks. |
Spkr4theDead
International-Fleet
722
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 07:28:00 -
[10] - Quote
Void Echo wrote:DJINN leukoplast wrote:Void Echo wrote:DJINN leukoplast wrote:I find it is difficult to explain to tankers what infantry goes through when dealing with tanks. we find it difficult to explain to infantry what pilots go though when dealing with you guys.... we are having trouble finding a way to explain it so even a caveman can understand. Pretty sure I just managed. So please, humor us. id rather not. im just here to point out the mistakes every one of you make when your trying to dictate how this game should work. btw, youv made a lot of mistakes Get your stuff to record so we can show them what it's like. |
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Void Echo
Morsus Mihi Aperuitque Imperium
1341
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 07:30:00 -
[11] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Void Echo wrote:DJINN leukoplast wrote:Void Echo wrote:DJINN leukoplast wrote:I find it is difficult to explain to tankers what infantry goes through when dealing with tanks. we find it difficult to explain to infantry what pilots go though when dealing with you guys.... we are having trouble finding a way to explain it so even a caveman can understand. Pretty sure I just managed. So please, humor us. id rather not. im just here to point out the mistakes every one of you make when your trying to dictate how this game should work. btw, youv made a lot of mistakes Get your stuff to record so we can show them what it's like.
my financial aid doesn't come in till after 1.5 I think
cant buy the recording **** until I get my check... |
daishi mk03
Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic
211
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 07:30:00 -
[12] - Quote
This scenario is wrong on so many levels.
Add the following things to your parallel universe - tanks cost close to 0 ISK - tanks can hide in hills and shoot invisible, target seeking rockets on those two infantry guys - infantry suits cost 1m ISK - infantry is blind after 100m range
There you go with your crappy scenario. |
Spkr4theDead
International-Fleet
722
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 07:30:00 -
[13] - Quote
DJINN leukoplast wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote: You admit to spending the vast majority of your time in ambush. You've also said you run solo. Both of your problems are right there.
So you're saying the only viable way for me to counter tanks is squads and skirmish? Only wish infantry was lucky enough to have such prerequisites. LOL If that's what you gather from what I said, there's no hope for you. |
DJINN leukoplast
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
1301
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 07:31:00 -
[14] - Quote
Void Echo wrote:DJINN leukoplast wrote:Void Echo wrote:DJINN leukoplast wrote:I find it is difficult to explain to tankers what infantry goes through when dealing with tanks. we find it difficult to explain to infantry what pilots go though when dealing with you guys.... we are having trouble finding a way to explain it so even a caveman can understand. Pretty sure I just managed. So please, humor us. id rather not. im just here to point out the mistakes every one of you make when your trying to dictate how this game should work. btw, youv made a lot of mistakes
If you want us to see your side of the story, then tell it. Heck, use the same outline I used. Obviously both tankers and infantry have similar feelings towards eachother (thinking the other has it better off), so you should explain it. |
Jetti Daxcide
Mechanised Enterprise Of War
19
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Posted - 2013.09.16 07:31:00 -
[15] - Quote
i feel all this bitching about tanks being OP is gunna fall in 1.5 when we need ammo for our turrets which will only slow them down but that is all that is needed |
DJINN leukoplast
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
1301
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 07:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
daishi mk03 wrote:This scenario is wrong on so many levels.
Add the following things to your parallel universe - tanks cost close to 0 ISK - tanks can hide in hills and shoot invisible, target seeking rockets on those two infantry guys - infantry suits cost 1m ISK - infantry is blind after 100m range
There you go with your crappy scenario.
I could have gone into much more detail, like giving suits the ability to be mostly invincible via active modules and passive skills, making tanks paper thin, and giving suits 10x's the health of a tank. But since tanks were already the loser in my scenario, I didn't want to make it even worse as the point was already made.
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Jack McReady
DUST University Ivy League
549
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 07:39:00 -
[17] - Quote
daishi mk03 wrote:This scenario is wrong on so many levels.
Add the following things to your parallel universe - tanks cost close to 0 ISK - tanks can hide in hills and shoot invisible, target seeking rockets on those two infantry guys - infantry suits cost 1m ISK - infantry is blind after 100m range
There you go with your crappy scenario. and in the current universe most of the QQ is a result of this: -tank driver has **** fit -tank driver thinks he should be invincible and does not get what positioning and cover is -tank driver goes rambo into a full squad and wonders why 18 AV nades hurt |
DJINN leukoplast
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
1301
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 07:39:00 -
[18] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:DJINN leukoplast wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote: You admit to spending the vast majority of your time in ambush. You've also said you run solo. Both of your problems are right there.
So you're saying the only viable way for me to counter tanks is squads and skirmish? Only wish infantry was lucky enough to have such prerequisites. LOL If that's what you gather from what I said, there's no hope for you.
I was only replying how you have replied to many of my, and others, posts
You know, coming up with some conclusion that is well beyond the intended meaning. Although I actually came pretty close. |
Thurak1
Psygod9
189
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 07:42:00 -
[19] - Quote
Use a forge gun and lay waste to everything.
Yes it is an extreme oversimplification to what using a forge gun really is like. |
daishi mk03
Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic
211
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 07:54:00 -
[20] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:and in the current universe most of the QQ is a result of this: -tank driver has **** fit -tank driver thinks he should be invincible and does not get what positioning and cover is -tank driver goes rambo into a full squad and wonders why 18 AV nades hurt
Okay, please tell me what the price of my tank has to do with the points you mentioned? Or how a proto swarmer on a building, eg on line harvest, who denies every vehicle play on the whole map, is related to your points?
My fit is fine, I stay 50+m away from every infantry and i make more ISK than I lose. Still, broken mechanics are broken.
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Lorhak Gannarsein
Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION
364
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 07:56:00 -
[21] - Quote
Forge gun = your argument is invalid. |
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
124
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 08:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
DJINN leukoplast wrote:I find it is difficult to explain to tankers what infantry goes through when dealing with tanks. But I came up with a simple way to illustrate it.
Scenario - It is a bizarre paralell universe in Dust 514, in which most of the players in every the match are using tanks. Infantry coming into the match is rare, but on average there is at least 1-2 infantry players amongst all the tankers.
Rules - Tanks have 3 choices in terms of weaponry:
Choice #1 - Tank has weapons designed for taking out other tanks, but do nothing to infantry players. Choice #2 - Tank has weapons designed for taking out infantry players, but have no defense whatsoever against other tanks. Choice #3 - Tank has a moderately powerful anti-infantry weapon, but it's range is extremely limited, uses up a valuable weapon slot and uses more CPU/PG than a anti-tank weapon.
Choice #1 - Leaves the tanker completely exposed to infantry AV players. Infantry players can literally walk right up next to the tank and do whatever they please with no way for the tank to fight back. Their only choice in this scenario is hope they can hide, or if they die, come back with an anti-infantry option to hopefully prevent the infantry player from being able to do this again.
Choice #2 - Since the match is comprised mostly of other tanks, this is a very tricky situation. This tanker chose to hunt down the pesky AV player that previously had 100% advantage over them, but they are completely vulnerable to every one of the other 15 tankers on the field. At this point it would be pure luck to avoid certain death by the tankers that are specifically hunting other enemy tanks. And to add insult to injury, once the AV infantry player knows the tank now has anti-infantry weapons, they go into hiding or switch to their tank fitting via the instant-dropsuit-recall feature.
Choice #3 - After the tankers past experiences, they figure they would choose the option which still lets them be somewhat powerful against other tanks, but also have an anti-infantry option as well. However not all goes well, as they find that the tank they chose was a poor choice for that match, as there wasn't a single infantry player on the field at all. Which left them more vulnerable to the other tanks. So after dying by the hands of a more powerful tank equipped with option #1, they decide to bring back their full-tank setup... but lo-and-behold, pretty much as soon as they do an AV infantry player appears on the field, and promptly wipes the floor with the tanker. So once again the tanker decides on choice #3, thinking it is the best choice for both anti-tank and anti-infantry. But this time the tanker is out-ranged by the AV player, and since the tanks anti-infantry weapon is so limited in range, they lose again.
Hope that clears things up a bit for tankers. Just imagine if you only had those 3 choices in a game comprised mostly of other tankers.
None of the tankers would ignore the AV infantry for even a minute in your #2 imaginary event. They deal more damage than tanks, are much harder to pin down, are superior in price, and can hide outside visual range...
You just put a huge tag on your forehead that says: "NEVER DRIVEN A TANK AND TOO LAZY TO TRY" I didn't believe the comments at first... Then I tried speccing into standard tanks. Getting a steady rate of 20 kills per match is quite a feat for a tanker, but is easily commonplace for infantry. On average you have to take a death or two just to get that many. Tanks can't pay for those kind of losses but infantry can. The only time I've ever seen a tanker get more than 20 kills is when there is no AV anywhere for the match. However I've seen infantry get 30+kills consecutively even though a tank was deployed.
Basically your telling us that you resent having to think about your deployment location and should be able to Rambo down everything just because its combine isn't to you?
Here's what I say: "Spend some time learning to fit and drive a standard tank" The lessons you'd be schooled at would give you more insights ham text ever could into how tanking really works.
I mostly run infantry and my Militia AV decimates any ranks on the opposition that I just sneeze at. I can't imagine how easy it is for using ADV or PRO AV, yet you're here whining for better AV and worried that tanks are too strong? |
pegasis prime
BIG BAD W0LVES
975
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 08:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
Leuky boy you get a verry slow clap.............. for having such a vivid imagination . Now be a good boy and go back to chewing crayons or feeding your toaster mayonnaise .... or what ever it is you get up to when not trying to kill dust. |
Mossellia Delt
Militaires Sans Jeux
269
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Posted - 2013.09.16 09:10:00 -
[24] - Quote
I enjoy how a handheld gun is more powerful then a mounted GIANT gun. |
ladwar
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
1603
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 09:26:00 -
[25] - Quote
with my AV fits i can go toe to toe with an infantry that want to take me down. so whats your point? don't try that bull with AV fits are weak to infantry fits because its a straight up lie. look how popular forge gun sniping is and its main purpose is to kill infantry not vehicles.
btw i run around with choice 4 most of the time. tanks that built for tank on tank with equipment to take out infantry very effectively. the one you didn't mention. |
DJINN Marauder
Ancient Exiles
1228
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Posted - 2013.09.16 10:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:DJINN Marauder wrote:Regardless of what you tankers say, what leuko says in his post are pretty much what infantry have to deal with lol. Except its a lot cheaper.
Tanks do need a buff tho. LOL No it's not. It's easy to kill tanks. I'm confused by your reply
I didn't say tanks were hard to kill... I said they need a buff didn't I? :( |
Omareth Nasadra
QcGOLD
65
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Posted - 2013.09.16 10:24:00 -
[27] - Quote
DJINN Marauder wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:DJINN Marauder wrote:Regardless of what you tankers say, what leuko says in his post are pretty much what infantry have to deal with lol. Except its a lot cheaper.
Tanks do need a buff tho. LOL No it's not. It's easy to kill tanks. I'm confused by your reply I didn't say tanks were hard to kill... I said they need a buff didn't I? :(
these tanker are so used to fight us infantry on the forum that they can't agree with us, even when we take their side |
noob cavman
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
66
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Posted - 2013.09.16 10:52:00 -
[28] - Quote
Void Echo wrote:DJINN leukoplast wrote:I find it is difficult to explain to tankers what infantry goes through when dealing with tanks. we find it difficult to explain to infantry what pilots go though when dealing with you guys.... we are having trouble finding a way to explain it so even a caveman can understand.
I resent that |
Kekklian Noobatronic
Goonfeet Top Men.
446
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Posted - 2013.09.16 10:56:00 -
[29] - Quote
As an AV player, I used to relish the opportunity to kill a tank. Often it was a close fight, and I had to be very sneaky in order to pull off the kill. If I succeeded, it felt great. If I failed, it was usually because the tanker was on his toes, and I'd tip my had to him and write off the ISK from the suits as money well spent.
Nowadays, I'm tired.. I see a tank and I sigh inside, because most tankers have realised that an armor tank with a simple, massive buffer and a Large repper(or small, whatever) will defeat any attempts from a solo AV player(or small packs of ADV players) to kill him - regardless of what AV tier he's packing(STD/ADV/PRO).
Tankers don't understand how frustrating it is for an infantry player to see their tanks on the field. They only see the few losses they take(and they see those as BLASPHEMY!!). They don't see the insane number of kills they get, compared to the very very few deaths. And most of all, tankers are the LAST people that I would go to for advice on how strong AV is or is not, because they don't use it! Of course they're going to complain it's too powerful, because all they see is it being used against them. They don't count how many times they escaped, despite having 3 Lai Dai packed AV grenades and proto swarms thrown at them. Or how many times they've simply driven off from a slow forge gunner.
Being a tanker is *very* easy compared to being an Infantry player. Go in, activate hardeners, activate repper if low, mop up kills. Literally nothing to it. Oh, you got hit? Drive away, since you drive faster than any player(including a scout) can run. Tankers are just the easiest thing in the game - assuming you are using a STD with decent skill investment. About the only thing I can say tankers do have bad is that their progression is all screwed up. It's either A) You have not enough skill points and get stomped, or B) You have plenty of skill points and rarely - if ever - die.
It's just frustrating. I really hope CCP doesn't screw up 1.5, because if tanks get any harder to kill without severe nerfs in killing potential, that's likely to be the straw that breaks this camels back. |
Racro 01 Arifistan
The Surrogates Of War
41
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Posted - 2013.09.16 11:04:00 -
[30] - Quote
i have swarm launcher skills but iam a tank driver and my opinon on swarm launchers is this.
std swarms are crap adv is nice and decent and allows you to kill pretty much all armour vehicles. proto is just lol.
now i have 21mill sp and a large majority of it is into madrugars full armour/turret skills. this took probably good over 11-14 mill investemnt.
now i invest 1.5 mill inoto swarm.and your're telling me i can solo any tank with a fckn wykomi with 2 complex mods on my gall adv assult. with swarm prof 3. and theres a larger investment in my tanks that i can decently withstand 1 wykomi. but then the dreaded thing happens.
laidai packed av nades doing more damage and killing tanks quicker than my wykomi? wtf? |
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