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DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6214	Posted - 2013.09.13 17:26:00 - [1] - Quote So the respec debacle happened as and after Uprising launched. I went Dropship specialist, raged insanely hard, then respec'd into the most solid basic thing I could think of at the time (still wafting on rage fumes, mind you) I went AR Shield Fatty. Ok, so now I have a boat load of SP in ARs, Forge Guns, basic Heavies, all the shield skills, and I've kind of just been branching out from there because ADD / OCD and stuff sitting idle don't mix well with me. Anyways. What the skill system right now encourages you to do, if you're playing to not get stomped, is to focus on one weapon, one suit, one specialized playstyle. A lot of the vets forget this, they forget / never even experienced what it's like to claw your way up this slow, boring skill tree in the face of insurmountable odds (proto squad red line ring a bell?) So, if the noobs are playing 'right' they're saving their SP, buying only gear that matches their skills, and only spending SP when unlocking the next level. For months, and months, and months (particularly free players). There is no deviation, minus that which you can attain through gimping yourself (remember, the noobs don't have skills to fall back on, and they might even be working on core skills, making this even worse). So you've got new players, not allowed to experiment with new skills, buying the same boring gear game after game, stockpiling gear as it becomes available..playing match after match for that tiny boost in stats. No cool new looking gun, no actual change in game performance wise, save the statistical boost. At best you get a new color scheme. So all your gear is boring; static. All your skills are fairly boring (many don't even provide any boosts, and many more provide trivial boosts that are laughable at best, some of which don't even remotely match the suits or their supposed roles) So at the end of the day, you've got the vets on one hand, rolling in cash (most anyways), with oodles of gear stockpiled, and the noobs, praying to god that their skill selection is actually worth a damn; that the gear they're dreaming about actually plays exactly as expected after months of going to that point. There is no deviation. This is DUSTs problem. Your skills are static. The second you as a player evolve, the second YOU decide that a given playstyle no longer interests or appeals to you, too damn bad. You're forced to keep it. There needs to be a way to slowly reallocate skill points, to gradually pull them from one place and back into your SP pool. It's so damn boring, and offers no leeway for new and old players alike.
Sgt Kirk SyNergy Gaming EoN. 1632	Posted - 2013.09.13 17:27:00 - [2] - Quote This may not be the game for you then.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6214	Posted - 2013.09.13 17:35:00 - [3] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: This may not be the game for you then. If you actually knew how to read, you'd notice that I'm talking primarily about noobs. I have 15 million SP with my cores flushed out, I'm in a stable position, it's just boring.
Sgt Kirk SyNergy Gaming EoN. 1636	Posted - 2013.09.13 17:39:00 - [4] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: This may not be the game for you then. If you actually knew how to read, you'd notice that I'm talking primarily about noobs. I have 15 million SP with my cores flushed out, I'm in a stable position, it's just boring. This may not be the game for you then.
Our Deepest Regret Algintal Core Gallente Federation 207	Posted - 2013.09.13 17:43:00 - [5] - Quote I see your point completely, Fiend. I spec'd into vehicles from day one of my character, two months ago. I'm only now getting some return on my investment (not nearly enough in my opinion, but that's for another thread). In the interim, It's been sixty days of paying the fun tax before I finally started to feel like a contributor. My advantage is that I don't care about wins or dying, so long as I can continually grind skill points. But that's me. It's a lot to ask of infantry players who actually give a fig about their KDR to let themselves be someone else's ***** for months on end, and expect their loyalty to stand.
Nick nugg3t United Universe Corp 144	Posted - 2013.09.13 17:47:00 - [6] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: This may not be the game for you then. I dont have anything interesting to add to this topic but I can say that focusing on getting out the rest of dust 514's content [dropsuits, weapons(on the way), vehicles, PvE, ETC] will enhance the "boring" skill system. I dont really think you can make a skill system fun or interesting. it's just a skill system. but the boring part that you are talking about is misunderstood. It's not the system itself but the lack of variety to skill into. lack of weapons, especially heavy weapons, lack of dropsuits lack of vehicles I think you can see the problem if not let me say it more straight forward its not the skill system thats boring. it is the lack of things to skill into.
Lycuo The Rainbow Effect 68	Posted - 2013.09.13 18:25:00 - [7] - Quote If i remember correctly at one point i was being proto stomped by all of IMPS and SI and Betamax... Eventually i worked my way up in skill points... slowly trying to catch everyone (which will never happen)... And now finally im up towards the top with extra SP and skill and i have learned the format of the game and how to achieve my max potential (or somewhat near it)... And now you wanna give the new guys the easy road between all of that? This does not make for a competitive game... honestly it would be easier in this game if u gave all the new guys 20m Sp... they would spend it in all sorts of ****** places and just *** that they needed 20m more... Guess what... we all went through the degree of hard knocks and we all took our ass whoopings... the ones who are still here are the ones who actually learned how to play this game... its not for the weak of heart or the casual once a week or once every couple weeks gamer... they can play CoD or BF3 I love this game for that exact reason...
Cosgar ParagonX 5217	Posted - 2013.09.13 18:32:00 - [8] - Quote Lycuo wrote: If i remember correctly at one point i was being proto stomped by all of IMPS and SI and Betamax... Eventually i worked my way up in skill points... slowly trying to catch everyone (which will never happen)... And now finally im up towards the top with extra SP and skill and i have learned the format of the game and how to achieve my max potential (or somewhat near it)... And now you wanna give the new guys the easy road between all of that? This does not make for a competitive game... honestly it would be easier in this game if u gave all the new guys 20m Sp... they would spend it in all sorts of ****** places and just *** that they needed 20m more... Guess what... we all went through the degree of hard knocks and we all took our ass whoopings... the ones who are still here are the ones who actually learned how to play this game... its not for the weak of heart or the casual once a week or once every couple weeks gamer... they can play CoD or BF3 I love this game for that exact reason... There's nothing competitive about this game anymore because they completely devalued the SP system now. Why invest SP in something when a BPO does the same thing and for cheaper. Why learn to aim when the damn game aims for you. Why is this a FPS WHEN YOU CAN'T STRAFE!!! They took away the only reason to play this forsaken mess- SP. So why play anymore. It sure as hell isn't fun and that "oh crap! I'm not capped yet!" feeling is gone.
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 720	Posted - 2013.09.13 18:33:00 - [9] - Quote Nick nugg3t wrote: its not the skill system thats boring. it is the lack of things to skill into. If you like medium suits and light weapons, you have a candy store of options to choose from, currently. Everyone runs Gallente or Caldari + AR anyway. Makes me wonder if everyone will run Amarr Heavy still once racial fatties are introduced in 2015... THAT SAID: I think Dust's point about the slog and grind isn't quite valid. I run around in a Laser/SMG/AV nade/scanner Assault suit for ***** n' giggles now, and while I don't murder the same as if I'm going Boundless HMG, I can still get reasonable kills and WP during a match. It cost me a total of 100,000ish SP to fit what I wanted over what I already had for Heavy. I think PC is the only part of DUST that demands min/maxing to post a good match. You can go broad and still have fun (especially with the low TTK now). It's the people trying to top each other on the leaderboards and shedding blood over plots of land that are wearing themselves out. Getting core skills up in the first place though... that stuff's a grind.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1577	Posted - 2013.09.13 18:35:00 - [10] - Quote Level IV and V of a lot of skills really are only worth it if: You need them for another skill. or You have level III in just about everything else. This is why I think the proficiency skills should be available at operation III. Either that, or people shouldn't be so dumb at investing SP for a bonus that is 10x more than something more valuable for much less.

DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6217	Posted - 2013.09.13 18:37:00 - [11] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: I think Dust's point about the slog and grind isn't quite valid. I run around in a Laser/SMG/AV nade/scanner Assault suit for ***** n' giggles now, and while I don't murder the same as if I'm going Boundless HMG, I can still get reasonable kills and WP during a match. It cost me a total of 100,000ish SP to fit what I wanted over what I already had for Heavy. I think PC is the only part of DUST that demands min/maxing to post a good match. You can go broad and still have fun (especially with the low TTK now). It's the people trying to top each other on the leaderboards and shedding blood over plots of land that are wearing themselves out. Getting core skills up in the first place though... that stuff's a grind. Don't get me wrong, I run militia only gear about 80% of the time, and still top almost every pub I enter solo. So it's not like you NEED uber skills to do alright there. I just hate having to look at skills I no longer enjoy or have any desire to use (I'm looking at you, AR skills, and both shield recharging skills). It's not like I can't use them, it's not like they've been nerfed to oblivion or is no longer FoTM, the simple truth is I just find it boring as hell and have no desire to rock that playstyle anymore, but unless I want to invalidate multiple millions of SP, I'm forced to play that way regardless.
Kigurosaka Laaksonen Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 7	Posted - 2013.09.13 18:37:00 - [12] - Quote I just want to put this out there for people to think about. I see nothing wrong with respecs in Dust, especially when a good chunk of promised content is missing. If I think I'd like to skill into Caldari Heavy suits, what should I do in the mean time? The problem that people seem to have with respecs is that anyone can take all their SP and put it into what is doing well that build, and you have everyone running around in proto whatevers. Think about this. I take all my SP after a respec and dump it all in to one thing. So I'm really good at one thing, and suck all at the rest. When the nerf bat comes a swinging, it's gonna hit me hard. That's called putting all your eggs in one basket. Do it at your own risk. Respecs are fine until Dust has it's bare minimum content (i.e. racial variants.) Put all your eggs in one basket at your own risk. Lycuo, I play Dust casually about once every other week. I do fine at it. CCP released a poor product that isn't worth much more of my time than once a week or so.
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 720	Posted - 2013.09.13 19:33:00 - [13] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: And, as I said in the OP, having a slow skill reallocation system would go a long way towards helping noobs take some strain off of incorrect or no longer enjoyable decisions, without completely invalidating the weight of your decisions. Gotcha man. And I'll confess, I did always like the idea of a slow respec system. Having a rolling bank of 1 skill level to undo per week would be pretty neat, without encouraging FOTM hopping after every patch.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6219	Posted - 2013.09.13 19:50:00 - [14] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: And, as I said in the OP, having a slow skill reallocation system would go a long way towards helping noobs take some strain off of incorrect or no longer enjoyable decisions, without completely invalidating the weight of your decisions. Gotcha man. And I'll confess, I did always like the idea of a slow respec system. Having a rolling bank of 1 skill level to undo per week would be pretty neat, without encouraging FOTM hopping after every patch. I was thinking somewhere around that time scale as well, though I'd kind of like for it to let you take 5 points out total (can be spread out) within any given month, but even just at a rate of 1 per week, that would be awesome. It's what I've personally pushed for, though it usually gets drowned out by either side of the respec crowds.
Aisha Ctarl Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 1301	Posted - 2013.09.13 19:50:00 - [15] - Quote Honestly, that is a feature I'd kill for in DUST. Instead of a respec, allow us to reallocate points in their respective categories. For example I have proto Amarr Assault and Adv Amarr Logi, but I wish I could "flow" those points from Assault into Logi and vice versa as needed....I mean hey, I earned the points, let me do as I please with them. Now those points would be locked to dropsuits only thought, for example you can't move assault suit points into tanks.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2567	Posted - 2013.09.13 20:14:00 - [16] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: This may not be the game for you then. If you actually knew how to read, you'd notice that I'm talking primarily about noobs. I have 15 million SP with my cores flushed out, I'm in a stable position, it's just boring. This may not be the game for you then. Unfortunately, I don't think this is the game for 99% of gamers. The skill system is awful.
calisk galern BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder. 945	Posted - 2013.09.13 20:23:00 - [17] - Quote ideal system would allow for players to spec into drop suits in less then a week, but have 10-20 types of suits with variations. currently we have 5 suits, with 4 variations each, and they take 1 and a half months to spec into =/ which system would be more entertaining? keep in mind you'd spend about the same amount of time to cap everything, but you could spec into a new suit like you can spec into a new weapon now. spend a week or two and get into the suit you like to proto, maybe specialize a bit like you do a weapon. you could still have a few choise suits that take longer to spec, but right now we only have core suits, they should not take this long to proto.
J'Jor Da'Wg KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 915	Posted - 2013.09.13 20:24:00 - [18] - Quote I agree completely and I have said it many times. It is the issue of the SP sink, where you just pour tons of time and effort into getting a marginal, almost unnoticeable advantage. Until the advantages accumulate and reach critical mass you just to feel like you are getting anywhere or improving. What we need to have a wide RANGE of content to spend small amounts of SP into and unlock new things quickly. This way, you are unlocking new things quickly and can change direction or style but the sheer amount of things to unlock means you will still spend years unlocking everything. What we have now is a small amount of skills that take a LOT of SP to get, resulting in a boring grind that locks you in, and gives you a very muted sense of progression. Instead of having one hundred 1x or 2x multiplier skills, we have ten 10x skills (not actually the real amount, just a generalization.) I would rather unlock a bunch of little new things every few days than a really big thing every few weeks. Not to say there isn't a place for skills with large SP sinks but the general rule should be BREADTH of content, not LENGTH.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6223	Posted - 2013.09.13 21:17:00 - [19] - Quote J'Jor Da'Wg wrote: Not to say there isn't a place for skills with large SP sinks but the general rule should be BREADTH of content, not LENGTH. This is definitely one of our problems. You look at EVE, and there is just a tremendous amount of options for each of the various options, of which there are quite a few. Then you come to the red headed step child, DUST, and you see a much different picture. Now don't get me wrong, I understand that CCP is working very hard on making this a reality, and that things haven't gone exactly....smoothly. However, they do need to know that as soon as they get the core ironed out, however long that ends up taking them, we need need neeeeeeeeed more options. More variations. More skills. More ways to tweak and customize. We need so much other stuff as well, but this is generally the core of your out of combat experience, working with fittings and skills. It needs to be more in depth. It needs to have more content. It needs to evolve with you, instead of growing stagnant with time.
Skihids Bullet Cluster 2062	Posted - 2013.09.13 21:31:00 - [20] - Quote I can see your point. I've got 19m locked into infantry skills and I'm saving up to get back into dropships if they prove viable in 1.5-1.6. It requires a minimum of 4m SP to create a viable fitting so that means two months of saving at full boost before it makes sense to drop a single point Into vehicles and start flying again. That's two months of playing full time with nothing new. That's somewhat mitigated by the fact I have a pretty good Logi fit and an OK Assault fit to play around with in the meantime. It would also help if there were a bit more variety in the game. Having more things to do with your limited set of skills would help.

Commander Tuna KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 97	Posted - 2013.09.13 21:41:00 - [21] - Quote We all seem to forget how lucky we are that we got to keep ALL of our sp earned throughout the beta. I do feel for the new players with the insurmountable task at gaining just the proto suits. I understand that 500k sp can at least get them specced in to a weapon and basic suit but still. My favorite part about this game is the skill system but for the new players, I feel for them.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2568	Posted - 2013.09.13 22:05:00 - [22] - Quote I still think the idea of using straight Skill Points, rather than a more traditional leveling system is the problem. They should have done things like a more traditional RPG skill tree, where you earn XP towards your next "level" and each "level" awards 1 SP. 1 SP earned per level, and each level would take a bit more XP to reach than the last. They could then simply take each skill's "multiplier" and just use it as the SP cost. So a 1x skill would cost 1 skill point at skill level 1, 2 skill points at skill level 2, etc. A 5x skill would cost 5 skill points at skill level 1, and 25 skill points at skill level 5. This way, players would level considerably faster in the early stages, but the higher your level, the longer it would take to earn another skill point. The extreme vast majority of RPGs and MMOs work this way for a reason: It works.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1301	Posted - 2013.09.13 22:35:00 - [23] - Quote I reckon to unlock an item, the maximum skill requirement should be Level IV. The fifth level should give double the passive bonus for those who know that that specialisation is their one and only calling. For skills like Rapid Reload which only contribute a passive bonus and doesn't unlock any new items, the bonus should increase (by a small amount) per level. This will give more of a sense that the added SP cost is for a greater benefit, and make those who specialise have an obvious benefit to the jack-of-all-trades. However, since 'unlocking' skills will only ever reach Level IV, millions of SP are saved alone in dropsuits, and weapons. Hell, remove prototype. This is where the tiercide side of things comes in, except I've watered it down a little. Simply remove prototype weapons and dropsuits. Now, you ask: but tanks still have 3rd tier armour plates, how do I counter them with advanced (2nd tier) swarms? Because once prototype is gone, introduce advanced VARIANTS with the SPECIFIC CAPACITY to perform a single role. A swarm launcher which has high damage but slow missile speed. A swarm launcher with faster missiles for dropships. A swarm launcher with better missile AI to track LAVs around corners. Obviously, using the swarm launcher with high damage and slow missile speed is ineffective to LAVs/Dropships, which makes them primarily used on HAVs. This is probably preferable to a prototype tier swarm which has no real weakness in terms of vehicles. Same for dropsuits. If you have complex armour plates, the enemy will use an AR with armour-penetrating rounds which are more easily deflected by shields, but you don't have much shields so you'll be countered. All these small variants can be implemented because the amount of tiers is inversely proportional to the amount of variance. More tiers, less variants. More variants, less tiers. Because if we have both, the task of balancing will be ridiculous. ^ Kinda went on a tangent there but the tl;dr really is tiers are the problem.
Vell0cet Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 208	Posted - 2013.09.13 22:49:00 - [24] - Quote Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: If I think I'd like to skill into Caldari Heavy suits, what should I do in the mean time? One thing I've been putting my points into is dropsuit upgrade skills. These will be useful for any future suit. Having max CPU/PG will help you cram better stuff onto cheaper suits down the road, or make it possible to fit a maxed out fit when they release the suit you want. Max out your biotics, focus on sidearms if the main gun you want isn't available yet. Also, you might want to invest in skills that help with sig profiles, so you can see more enemies further away, and be seen by fewer, along with biotic upgrades which will also help all suits. I'm hoping to see the full set of initial racial suits by fanfest (ideally by Christmas).
Vin Vicious Capital Acquisitions LLC Public Disorder. 446	Posted - 2013.09.13 22:51:00 - [25] - Quote It's boring because you went heavy suit with an AR
Torneido Achura The Suicide Kingz 38	Posted - 2013.09.13 23:20:00 - [26] - Quote Its boring and stupid cuz of the bonuses; they are quite shi***, mostly those related to efficacy edit: I also want some respec, right about the time when new options are available T-T
I-Shayz-I Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 925	Posted - 2013.09.14 00:06:00 - [27] - Quote What I hate is that I spent a long time getting my forge and heavy skills up to par, and now it's like every other playstyle doesn't earn me as many wp. If I try something new and it doesn't give me wp or kills or anything I feel like I'm wasting my time. However, if I ignore that feeling and just go for it, eventually that playstyle will reward me and I will get better. The problem is that yes I can agree with you that playing the same playstyle gets boring, but what's not boring is the slow progression of getting better at one role or another. The other problem is that by the time I get as good as I can be with weapons and modules and suits for a specific playstyle, I've already gotten tired of it. I can play as an HMG whenever I want and do really well at it, but the months that I spent getting slowly better at it make the playstyle stale at times. Either way, the more playstyles I unlock the more fun the game gets for me because I can switch between roles whenever I please. I can defend and area with an HMG, or run in there and kick some ass with my scrambler, or take out that badass tank with my forge...
Vrain Matari ZionTCD 896	Posted - 2013.09.14 03:39:00 - [28] - Quote I'm definitely the odd man out here because i want the progression to be slower. It doesn't really matter because it's relative to everybody else playing the game. I'd love it if the top players were still a year away from the protosuits and we were all running around in basic and advanced suits. And all these inflated sp events suck in the long run, but CCP needed some kind of carrot to keep peeps playing while they sorted out their broken game. The one thing i do want to see re skillpoints is a rollover system.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6226	Posted - 2013.09.14 03:44:00 - [29] - Quote Vin Vicious wrote: It's boring because you went heavy suit with an AR Not really. Assault and logi's are boring as sin, and I'd rather not be nerfed by better hit detection, ala scouts. Going AR fatty covered both my AV and my infantry, with the most reliable weapon I could hope to have moving into the future. It's boring because I have to sit there and look at all those SP I earned that's just sitting in a weapon I'd rather not use (AR) and shield skills that are essentially irrelevant me, since I armor tank. It's boring because instead of being able to do something with that, it just sits there, and collects dust. I've played just about every playstyle this game has to offer since I started in May last year. I went with what I felt would be the sturdiest build for me moving forward, and I ******* WANT MY GOD DAMN GALLENTE HEAVY
Kira Lannister Ancient Exiles 1232	Posted - 2013.09.14 05:58:00 - [30] - Quote SO MUCH QQ.



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