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[Idea] %HP based Armor Repair Modules - CCP, Thoughts?

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Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Top Men. 403	Posted - 2013.09.10 14:46:00 - [1] - Quote Simply put - current armor repair is insufficient What if we changed the Armor repair modules to repair a % of base suit HP, based on the module being used. I.e. 2%, 3%, 5% armor repair modules. This would drastically increase the time-to-combat for heavily injured soldiers, and would scale well with armor tanking. If you kept the repair amount at base HP values, it would provide an increased repair for most suits vs current repair speeds, while keeping in line with intended suit roles(Shield tanker, Armor tanker, Balanced tanker). Right now a depleted heavy with 25 left of 750 armor will take a whopping 91(!!!) seconds to repair back to full health with Armor Repair 5 and a Complex Repair Module!!! In a 'run of the mill' 15 min skirmish, that's 1/10th of the entire match, barring a logistics player or resupply station!!! Take that same suit to domination or ambush game, and that means the player is now taking between 1/7th or 1/5th an average match to repair to full. Talk about waiting(Not to mention, a straight up recipe for clone-loss and lack of being able to compete with shield tankers)!! Some examples based off of a % Base HP repair system(Assumed Armor Repair V, no bonus assumed under new system) Amarr Heavy with 750 Armor, 1 Complex Repair Module Current: 25 Armor to 750 Armor - 91 seconds (8hp/sec) New: 25 Armor to 750 Armor - 30 seconds (25hp/sec) Caldari Assault with 350 Armor, 1 Complex Repair Module Current: 25 Armor to 350 Armor - 41 Seconds (8hp/sec) New: 25 Armor to 350 Armor - 47 Seconds (7.5hp/sec) Amarr Logistics(Logistics III) w/ 450 Armor, 2 Enhanced Repair Modules Current: 25 Armor to 450 Armor - 33 Seconds (13hp/sec) New: 25 Armor to 450 Armor - 30 Seconds (14hp/sec) Galente Standard w/ 500 Armor, 1 Complex Repair Modules Current: 25 Armor to 500 Armor - 60 Seconds (8Hp/sec) New: 25 Armor to 500 Armor - 43 Seconds (11 HP/sec) This would encourage people to use equipment which was meant for their suit, without completely gimping those who decide that they want to different fits. Let's take the Caldari Assault Suit. He loses a touch of armor repair speed, but the suit itself was not designed as an armor tanking suit(150 Armor, 220 Shield). This would result in a small - but noticeable - decrease in repair speed. While not gimping the suit, it would make more sense to pack on shield rechargers or regulators to increase the suits strong suit(Notice, shield Rechargers offer % bonus increases to a large flat amount already) We can also see from above that this would favor suits with higher base HP values, such as Heavies and Galente users. Coincidentally, these users are also the classes with slot layouts that encourage armor tanking, and that *tend to armor tank in the first place*! Heavies especially see a marked increase in surviveability, which would go a long way to helping them do as their description says - "Shrug off small arms fire". Considering a standard AR in it's current form can drop a 1100 HP heavy in under 3 seconds flat, this would go a good way towards making the heavy an actual.. Heavy! Assuming of course, the user puts on repair modules :). "But what bonus would the skill now apply?!" Glad you asked, Jimmy! I'm not sure! Probably one that increased the amount repaired based off base HP values - maybe adding .1% or .2% increase per level to the repair rate. Or, perhaps increasing the repair cycle rate by .05 per level, bringing the repair cycle from 1.0 to .75 seconds. Just an idea. It's certainly one to consider, considering the current woeful state that armor repair is in. Right now, people just stack Plates and hope that they can get to a Supply station to swap before they die. Or, if they're Mediums, they just drop an armor hive - something Heavies cannot do. But on the whole, the repair system as it stands right now is inadequate to provide meaningful repair to clones on the ground - especially Heavies and Gallente :(.
Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Top Men. 403	Posted - 2013.09.10 14:48:00 - [2] - Quote Reserved for more math. Maybe.
CLONE117 Planetary Response Organization Test Friends Please Ignore 328	Posted - 2013.09.10 15:32:00 - [3] - Quote armor reppers seem fine to me..
Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Top Men. 405	Posted - 2013.09.10 16:59:00 - [4] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: armor reppers seem fine to me.. You're either trolling me, run low-armor suits, or don't mind waiting awhile to get back in the fight ;)
lithkul devant Legions of Infinite Dominion 57	Posted - 2013.09.10 17:04:00 - [5] - Quote This actually seems like a really good idea, considering how slow armor regen currently is without a logi constantly backing you up. Especially for a heavy suit, where you might be regaining armor for more then a solid minute and with how large the hit boxes are for the heavy and how fast you can loose your armor, which is ridiculously fast. Even with the "buff" to armor recently it is more of just making it closer to on par with shields not actually equal to them at all. Caldari shields still rule the battlefield as they can regain most of thier shield hps in under 10 seconds from zero to full. Shields are supposed to be the much faster option, but they aren't supposed to be the flat out better option. That and armor repairs in Eve are no where as slow as they are in Dust, if a armor tanker in Eve was as slow as it is in Dust they'd be dead within seconds while everyone laughs at them. Armor in Dust also does not have really that much resistance to it or prowness for how slow it is to build back up. IF armor had actual good resistance values and wasn't just cheese to be peeled off the current system would be fine, however, we live with armor that is chesse.
Django Quik Dust2Dust. Top Men. 1418	Posted - 2013.09.10 17:23:00 - [6] - Quote This unfairly (and probably unintentionally) gimps armor repair for light suits in comparison to the larger frames. Also, it doesn't balance with shield reps, which only repair a set value per second.
Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Top Men. 405	Posted - 2013.09.10 18:39:00 - [7] - Quote Django Quik wrote: This unfairly (and probably unintentionally) gimps armor repair for light suits in comparison to the larger frames. Also, it doesn't balance with shield reps, which only repair a set value per second. Yes, I'll admit. I have no idea how to balance light suits. Thats why I did not even touch those. They need help beyond the scope of this particular post. As far as shield reps, every suit reguardless gets 20/sec. How is that not balanced? Light, Medium, Heavy. If you want to boost the amount repaired with shields, there's a module for that(not to mention a plethora of suit skills). Armor? Nope, just your best option is an 8hp/sec module, with prohibitively high fitting costs Want more than 8 HP/sec? Good luck fitting anything else. Armor tankers must gimp themselves to achieve even a reasonable level of armor repair. I'm not going to crosslink to my other posts, in it's current state, a 3 complex-shield Caldari Assault still gets into the fight far quicker than it's Galente armor advisory, on the scale of 25+ seconds or more per engagement. Armor repair is crap. If you don't like my above idea, then add to it.
Fizzer94 L.O.T.I.S. 159	Posted - 2013.09.10 18:47:00 - [8] - Quote Django Quik wrote: This unfairly (and probably unintentionally) gimps armor repair for light suits in comparison to the larger frames. Also, it doesn't balance with shield reps, which only repair a set value per second. Which is why you could just give passive built in armor repair to the Gallente suit and a smaller one one to the Minmatar suit.
CLONE117 Planetary Response Organization Test Friends Please Ignore 330	Posted - 2013.09.10 18:48:00 - [9] - Quote im still running the default free mlt galente suit with shield armor upgrades maxed.. got around 150 shields 353 armor... which is pretty decent for a mlt suit. armor repair modules r always actively repairing armor at a slow rate in a fire fight or not in one.. of course when armor gets low u have to get out of the battle. but that isnt always needed.. 4 hp armor a second is really quite good for armor. sure its going to take a few minutes to get back to full hp but just 1 armor repper isnt supposed to bring u back to full hp really fast.. this would make high armored suits to strong... passive armor repair should be slow.. the repair mods are always repairing the suit and 1 min isnt that long... shields rnt better than armo.. the second shield gets low u have to run... and go hide.. shields also seem to be weaker the only strength they have is that explosives resistance that they have.. but since armor reppers r always reping and r not effected by gunfire and other stuff such as shields are which makes the repair modules very effective... but if u need all that armor just to survive any fire fight in the first place u r either an idiot that has no clue on how to play. likes to RUN INTO GUNFIRE and act invincible... cant aim and so needs to rely on lots of armor to get a kill.. or thinks this would fix the already underpowered heavy suit which this isnt going to fix..
Epicsting pro Planetary Response Organization Test Friends Please Ignore 246	Posted - 2013.09.10 18:56:00 - [10] - Quote I love this idea, if it could be a second rep mods keeping the old mods for lighter armor suits. I would also like to see reps that are base off missing hp so the lower you are the faster you heal but makeing topping off your armor harder.

lithkul devant Legions of Infinite Dominion 58	Posted - 2013.09.10 19:06:00 - [11] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: im still running the default free mlt galente suit with shield armor upgrades maxed.. got around 150 shields 353 armor... which is pretty decent for a mlt suit. armor repair modules r always actively repairing armor at a slow rate in a fire fight or not in one.. of course when armor gets low u have to get out of the battle. but that isnt always needed.. 4 hp armor a second is really quite good for armor. sure its going to take a few minutes to get back to full hp but just 1 armor repper isnt supposed to bring u back to full hp really fast.. this would make high armored suits to strong... passive armor repair should be slow.. the repair mods are always repairing the suit and 1 min isnt that long... shields rnt better than armo.. the second shield gets low u have to run... and go hide.. shields also seem to be weaker the only strength they have is that explosives resistance that they have.. but since armor reppers r always reping and r not effected by gunfire and other stuff such as shields are which makes the repair modules very effective... but if u need all that armor just to survive any fire fight in the first place u r either an idiot that has no clue on how to play. likes to RUN INTO GUNFIRE and act invincible... cant aim and so needs to rely on lots of armor to get a kill.. or thinks this would fix the already underpowered heavy suit which this isnt going to fix.. Actually armor isn't repairing all the time, thier are whole forums about this topic as well, just an fyi
Vin Mora Sanguis Defense Syndicate 141	Posted - 2013.09.10 19:08:00 - [12] - Quote I had this idea like two weeks ago, just was too lazy to post it. Nice that someone else had the same idea. As an armor tanker I approve. Also with reduces the 'penalty' of stacking either armor or reps. With this, one repper will be useful someone using Complex Plates, and vice-versa you can put more reppers on and not have a lot of armor.
Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Top Men. 405	Posted - 2013.09.10 19:24:00 - [13] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: 4 hp armor a second is really quite good for armor. No offense, but I stopped reading right here. Go run around in a MLT heavy suit. Or Standard. You'll have about 500 Armor HP. Let me know how that 4 armor/sec works out for you. For the record, a heavy can die in about 2-3 seconds to a single MLT AR user. That 'constantly repairing' repper you mentioned? It only repaired 12 damage during the course of that 1100+damage/3 sec engagement. Hardly worth even mentioning.
Django Quik Dust2Dust. Top Men. 1419	Posted - 2013.09.10 22:17:00 - [14] - Quote lithkul devant wrote: [quote=CLONE117]im still running the default free mlt galente suit with shield armor upgrades maxed.. got around 150 shields 353 armor... which is pretty decent for a mlt suit. armor repair modules r always actively repairing armor at a slow rate in a fire fight or not Actually armor isn't repairing all the time, thier are whole forums about this topic as well, just an fyi Really? Please link one of these threads. My experience gap been that armor reppers are always on except for a very rare bug or two.
KING CHECKMATE TEAM SATISFACTION 967	Posted - 2013.09.10 22:20:00 - [15] - Quote No broski. The speed on regen is for shields The Tanking capabilities are for armor.
CLONE117 Planetary Response Organization Test Friends Please Ignore 331	Posted - 2013.09.11 00:05:00 - [16] - Quote Kekklian Noobatronic wrote: CLONE117 wrote: 4 hp armor a second is really quite good for armor. No offense, but I stopped reading right here. Go run around in a MLT heavy suit. Or Standard. You'll have about 500 Armor HP. Let me know how that 4 armor/sec works out for you. For the record, a heavy can die in about 2-3 seconds to a single MLT AR user. That 'constantly repairing' repper you mentioned? It only repaired 12 damage during the course of that 1100+damage/3 sec engagement. Hardly worth even mentioning. then explain why im getting top of the leader boards almost every match with a very good positive kdr? when im in the middle of the fire fight majority of the time.. oh right i know why! i use strategy!. that mlt heavy suit with a mlt armor repper only has 380 armor... its not going to last long in a major fire fight but for small cqc engagements it works quit well. a single mlt ar clip can kill a heavy.... or at least drain all the shields allowing the secondary to finish it off... i seem to be the only one on this game that knows how to properly take cover... i seem to stick out on the radar/mini map but for some reason i still manage to sneak past ppl... self awareness is key to winning any close engagement during a firefight.. running into direct gun fire should always result in death... as it does currently.. the current armor reppers r good enough... if u want fast armor repair go get a logi..
Cosgar ParagonX 5114	Posted - 2013.09.11 00:15:00 - [17] - Quote If scaled properly, I wouldn't mind seeing this on reactive plates. It'd make the crazy fitting costs worthwhile.
lithkul devant Legions of Infinite Dominion 58	Posted - 2013.09.11 01:55:00 - [18] - Quote Django Quik wrote: lithkul devant wrote: [quote=CLONE117]im still running the default free mlt galente suit with shield armor upgrades maxed.. got around 150 shields 353 armor... which is pretty decent for a mlt suit. armor repair modules r always actively repairing armor at a slow rate in a fire fight or not Actually armor isn't repairing all the time, thier are whole forums about this topic as well, just an fyi Really? Please link one of these threads. My experience gap been that armor reppers are always on except for a very rare bug or two. This was the forum I was originally refering to https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=87752 it is a very complete listing about armor and such it has been edited through different patches I think, but the issue about armor regen not going all the time might have been removed from it I am posting this anyways because it is a really good read and also details about shields. I currently can not find the forum that has the information about the armor repair delay, since I think it was more of a 1.3 issue, it was a 1-3 second delay, if I find it in the future I will post it.
The-Errorist Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 186	Posted - 2013.09.11 02:17:00 - [19] - Quote This is not needed. The role of armor is supposed to be to give you a relatively high HP boost, but have a high time to fully recover. Shield tanking is the opposite: a relatively small HP boost, but a small time to fully recover. Std armor plates give 63 more HP than shield extenders, 77 more at Adv, and 69 more at Proto. Armor plates uses less PG/CPU than shields. The armor repair system skills give you 25% extra maxed out, which is 1.25 more armor/second on complex repairers. You gain more from shield tankers with the Armor Plating skill that gives you 10% more HP from an armor plate, since extenders give less hp to benefit from the Shield Extension skill. [*] There are repair nanohives and repair tools and their is NOT shield boosting equipment.
Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Top Men. 410	Posted - 2013.09.11 07:11:00 - [20] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: This is not needed. This would nerf lights frames, nerf Minmatar, and make heavies repair more armor than shields per second, as well as not need as much repair support. 1) I've said it already - Light frames need more help than the scope of this. Besides, light frames don't really armor tank, now do they? 2) How exactly does this nerf Minmitar? 3) Yes, heavies will repair more than they currently do. Maybe it's partly because they're Heavy? 4) This does not change the requirement for repair support. And speaking as a heavy who has been playing since Chromo, I'm going to flat out say that there really are not that many repair supporters out there - especially in this build. I for one don't wan to play a class that's reliant on people who don't repair.

Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Top Men. 411	Posted - 2013.09.11 07:17:00 - [21] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: then explain why im getting top of the leader boards almost every match with a very good positive kdr? when im in the middle of the fire fight majority of the time.. oh right i know why! i use strategy!. This is insulting, as it implies that I don't understand what "strategy" is. It also implies that gasp maybe you're facing lower-skilled players in the Queue. Matchmaking, yo. CLONE117 wrote: that mlt heavy suit with a mlt armor repper only has 380 armor... its not going to last long in a major fire fight but for small cqc engagements it works quit well. a single mlt ar clip can kill a heavy.... or at least drain all the shields allowing the secondary to finish it off... i seem to be the only one on this game that knows how to properly take cover... i seem to stick out on the radar/mini map but for some reason i still manage to sneak past ppl... self awareness is key to winning any close engagement during a firefight.. running into direct gun fire should always result in death... as it does currently.. the current armor reppers r good enough... if u want fast armor repair go get a logi.. Not really sure how to reply to this. It's got multiple bad points. MLT AR's killing heavies in 1 clip(Lol), implying that you're the only person that uses cover(Lol), generally speaking like you're the best at the game(Lol). Look dude, I've never faced you, and I've not really seen you post. But I can judge pretty easily by your admission that you don't have anything past MLT(core skills aside) that you really haven't been at this long, and have not had the chance to explore the different playstyles and what not that this game has to offer. I've already indicated in my post what would happen to Medium suits - small changes in armor repair values, at best, with overall time-to-ready decreased by a matter of 10 seconds in most cases for Medium suits. It's not a nerf, and it's not a huge buff to Mediums. So I really don't know why you're throwing such a fit. As far as I'm concerned, I'm going to disregard your future posts, as I'm fairly sure I'm either A) being trolled or B) you really are lacking experience with anything past MLT. By your own admission that is.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1281	Posted - 2013.09.11 11:12:00 - [22] - Quote Cosgar wrote: If scaled properly, I wouldn't mind seeing this on reactive plates. It'd make the crazy fitting costs worthwhile. I like Cosgar's idea. Reactive plates need a whole overhaul. Give them a flat bonus to armour HP, then add the 'reactive' effect: From the instant you take damage, the reactive plate records how much damage to take for the next 2 seconds. Then after those two seconds, it repairs over time 50/60/70% of the damage taken in those two seconds. Then the plates go on cooldown for 10 seconds or so. Make the armour plate skill include a unique effect for reactive plates which lowers the amount of time it takes to repair the damage, or lower the cooldown. This would be as far as I'd go with percentage repairs. Giving a passive 1-2% regeneration is too much for me. Maybe on repair tools, sure. But on armour plates is risky.
Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Top Men. 413	Posted - 2013.09.11 13:53:00 - [23] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: Cosgar wrote: If scaled properly, I wouldn't mind seeing this on reactive plates. It'd make the crazy fitting costs worthwhile. I like Cosgar's idea. Reactive plates need a whole overhaul. Give them a flat bonus to armour HP, then add the 'reactive' effect: From the instant you take damage, the reactive plate records how much damage to take for the next 2 seconds. Then after those two seconds, it repairs over time 50/60/70% of the damage taken in those two seconds. Then the plates go on cooldown for 10 seconds or so. Make the armour plate skill include a unique effect for reactive plates which lowers the amount of time it takes to repair the damage, or lower the cooldown. This would be as far as I'd go with percentage repairs. Giving a passive 1-2% regeneration is too much for me. Maybe on repair tools, sure. But on armour plates is risky. Never said put it on armor plates. :) Talking repair modules, and only talking repairing a percent of base HP. That means that no matter how much buffer you put on, the suit will still only repair a certain amount per cycle. The only difference is, the cycles are more balanced towards the suit's purpose and HP. Armor suits and heavies will have an inherently higher regeneration rate, while Shield Suits will have repair speeds comparable to the current values.
The-Errorist Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 193	Posted - 2013.09.11 15:49:00 - [24] - Quote Kekklian Noobatronic wrote: The-Errorist wrote: This is not needed. This would nerf lights frames, nerf Minmatar, and make heavies repair more armor than shields per second, as well as not need as much repair support. 1) I've said it already - Light frames need more help than the scope of this. Besides, light frames don't really armor tank, now do they? 2) How exactly does this nerf Minmitar? 3) Yes, heavies will repair more than they currently do. Maybe it's partly because they're Heavy? 4) This does not change the requirement for repair support. And speaking as a heavy who has been playing since Chromo, I'm going to flat out say that there really are not that many repair supporters out there - especially in this build. I for one don't wan to play a class that's reliant on people who don't repair. 1) Gallente lights armor tank. 2) Minmatar have very low armor HP, so it what you're proposing would reduce their repair rates. I'll probably won't support anything that would decrease the Minmatar armor repair rates. 3) Heavies aren't supposed to be able recover that quickly. A lower repair rate percent increase would be needed. Kekklian Noobatronic wrote: Caldari Assault with 350 Armor, 1 Complex Repair Module Current: 25 Armor to 350 Armor - 41 Seconds (8hp/sec) New: 25 Armor to 350 Armor - 47 Seconds (7.5hp/sec) Your values are off for a 5hp/s reppairer with a 25% efficacy 5(1+(.055))=6.25 not 8hp/s. In from what you were saying and your example it would penalized those with lower HP values. Kekklian Noobatronic wrote: Let's take the Caldari Assault Suit. He loses a touch of armor repair speed, but the suit itself was not designed as an armor tanking suit(150 Armor, 220 Shield). This would result in a small - but noticeable - decrease in repair speed. I would only support what you are saying if it didn't penalize your repair rate if you have a low base armor value, but only benefit you if your suit has high base armor HP.
Rogatien Merc Red Star. EoN. 1122	Posted - 2013.09.11 16:29:00 - [25] - Quote Proto heavies have the slots to run a full rack of reppers with well over 400 armor HP... if you are buffer tanking, you are buffer tanking. The advantage of buffer tanking is that a full hive+rep triage logi and a doorway to guard turns you into a ******* god. Armor reps are fine as is.
CommanderBolt A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 275	Posted - 2013.09.11 18:17:00 - [26] - Quote Kekklian Noobatronic wrote: Django Quik wrote: This unfairly (and probably unintentionally) gimps armor repair for light suits in comparison to the larger frames. Also, it doesn't balance with shield reps, which only repair a set value per second. Yes, I'll admit. I have no idea how to balance light suits. Thats why I did not even touch those. They need help beyond the scope of this particular post. As far as shield reps, every suit reguardless gets 20/sec. How is that not balanced? Light, Medium, Heavy. If you want to boost the amount repaired with shields, there's a module for that(not to mention a plethora of suit skills). Armor? Nope, just your best option is an 8hp/sec module, with prohibitively high fitting costs Want more than 8 HP/sec? Good luck fitting anything else. Armor tankers must gimp themselves to achieve even a reasonable level of armor repair. I'm not going to crosslink to my other posts, in it's current state, a 3 complex-shield Caldari Assault still gets into the fight far quicker than it's Galente armor advisory, on the scale of 25+ seconds or more per engagement. Armor repair is crap. If you don't like my above idea, then add to it. I think you have to have a word with the commando suits. They are stubborn and only regenerates shield at a rate of 10hp / s and its very noticeable and very annoying. Especially considering its light tank ability and considering the commando suit is a heavy big bulky easy to hit target.
jace silencerww D3M3NT3D M1NDZ The Umbra Combine 5	Posted - 2013.09.11 18:47:00 - [27] - Quote CommanderBolt wrote: Kekklian Noobatronic wrote: Django Quik wrote: This unfairly (and probably unintentionally) gimps armor repair for light suits in comparison to the larger frames. Also, it doesn't balance with shield reps, which only repair a set value per second. Yes, I'll admit. I have no idea how to balance light suits. Thats why I did not even touch those. They need help beyond the scope of this particular post. As far as shield reps, every suit reguardless gets 20/sec. How is that not balanced? Light, Medium, Heavy. If you want to boost the amount repaired with shields, there's a module for that(not to mention a plethora of suit skills). Armor? Nope, just your best option is an 8hp/sec module, with prohibitively high fitting costs Want more than 8 HP/sec? Good luck fitting anything else. Armor tankers must gimp themselves to achieve even a reasonable level of armor repair. I'm not going to crosslink to my other posts, in it's current state, a 3 complex-shield Caldari Assault still gets into the fight far quicker than it's Galente armor advisory, on the scale of 25+ seconds or more per engagement. Armor repair is crap. If you don't like my above idea, then add to it. I think you have to have a word with the commando suits. They are stubborn and only regenerates shield at a rate of 10hp / s and its very noticeable and very annoying. Especially considering its light tank ability and considering the commando suit is a heavy big bulky easy to hit target. if you are running a commando do you get the 10% boost to all shield & armor mods or just the shield extendings & armor plates?
Django Quik Dust2Dust. Top Men. 1423	Posted - 2013.09.11 18:55:00 - [28] - Quote Kekklian Noobatronic wrote: The-Errorist wrote: This is not needed. This would nerf lights frames, nerf Minmatar, and make heavies repair more armor than shields per second, as well as not need as much repair support. 1) I've said it already - Light frames need more help than the scope of this. Besides, light frames don't really armor tank, now do they? No, they don't armor tank; they armor rep tank. With their few advantages being speed and stealth, it's all about darting in and out of cover and using their innate high shield reps and a complex armor repper to get to full health again quickly. Whilst other suits can properly armor tank and take lots of damage while fending off attackers, even with extra plates, you're not tanking anything in a light suit. With a current complex repper you get 100 armour in 16 seconds. That's not bad, especially considering (bugs aside) there's no delay on armour repping like there is (supposed to be - still not sure if this bug got fixed in 1.4) with shields. With some suits you can stack several of these and be constantly repping 25 armor per second even under fire! Having reps percentage based makes them massively beneficial for high armor suits and meaningless for anyone else. You should not be able to tank high armour and high reps - it should be a trade off of one or the other, just like it is with shields.
lithkul devant Legions of Infinite Dominion 60	Posted - 2013.09.11 19:39:00 - [29] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Kekklian Noobatronic wrote: The-Errorist wrote: This is not needed. This would nerf lights frames, nerf Minmatar, and make heavies repair more armor than shields per second, as well as not need as much repair support. 1) I've said it already - Light frames need more help than the scope of this. Besides, light frames don't really armor tank, now do they? No, they don't armor tank; they armor rep tank. With their few advantages being speed and stealth, it's all about darting in and out of cover and using their innate high shield reps and a complex armor repper to get to full health again quickly. Whilst other suits can properly armor tank and take lots of damage while fending off attackers, even with extra plates, you're not tanking anything in a light suit. With a current complex repper you get 100 armour in 16 seconds. That's not bad, especially considering (bugs aside) there's no delay on armour repping like there is (supposed to be - still not sure if this bug got fixed in 1.4) with shields. With some suits you can stack several of these and be constantly repping 25 armor per second even under fire! Having reps percentage based makes them massively beneficial for high armor suits and meaningless for anyone else. You should not be able to tank high armour and high reps - it should be a trade off of one or the other, just like it is with shields. Alright, so what I guess I am hearing is that armor reppers are kind of useless for those of lower armor values, because 10% of 100 is a lot less then 10% of 400, I know these are not actual suit armor hps, just making the example simple. So I was wondering if a progressive system would work better, where light suits get the highest % of repairs and heavies get the lowest % in repairs to try and even them out. So that a heavy is not getting many X times more hp then a light suit is, but it is still getting more by about 2X, like an inverse of the shields, where light suits get around 40 per tick and heavies get around 20 per tick. This would allow for better and more focussed armor tanking, now a lot of people have raised up the point, oh you could just sit on a hive and have someone armor repair you, this is a bs arguement, if anyone was stuipid enough to sit on a hive and actually stay in that solitary location, someone will throw a locus gernade into their face, hit them with a mass driver a few times or just 1 shot them with a forge gun or plasma cannon. A gernade can actually 1 hit kill an armor tanked heavy if the heavies shields have been damaged because I think the value added onto gernade damage against armor is 50% not many tanks are going to be able to survive a 700 point blast from a gernade, a logi isn't going to stick around and die for the heavy, the nano hive will also be destroyed by the gernade or mass driver. Also, to say that we are armor tanking with heavies or shield tanking...is a bit of a bullshit line since it is amarr which is made to be equal part armor and shields to begin with, we do not currently have Gallente heavies or Caldari heavies, we may think we are armor or shield tanking with the heavies but really we are not. The best shield tankers aslo seem to be the logi's in a strange way, because they have high shields and regenerate them very quickly, least in my opinnion. I think the problem for armor is the fact of how easy armor is to destroy with having bad resistances against common forms of damage and how slow it is now, mainly because new players are helped immensly with aim assist. Armor should be a steady gain and should have resistances in order to "keep it in the fight" which was the whole premise behind armor tanking, 5hp/s or even 8hp/s just isn't enough it should be roughly around 15 for the top end for the heavy suits, I also think I saw a great idea in here about burst repairs from one of the armor types that would then go onto a cooldown mode. This seems to be a great idea in itself, though that kind of power should be a cd of around 15-20 seconds I think unsure. I think though, that the idea of a progressive armor return based upon suit type/mod type would be giving the light suits a fair match with the heavies and how much they can gain, though the heavies would still gain a few more points per tick, since the lights get more points per tick with the shields.
Django Quik Dust2Dust. Top Men. 1426	Posted - 2013.09.11 20:52:00 - [30] - Quote Progressive armor return based upon suit type is really not much different to what we have at the moment - it's just not needed.

Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 119	Posted - 2013.09.11 21:00:00 - [31] - Quote Don't tell me you're talking about the logi suit bonus being a percentage too, even without that a couple of complex armor reppers could make me pretty much invincible, 10% per second? and I can bring that up to like 600 armor on my logi easily so about 60 armor/sec, thats more than shields...lol. Maybe have a variant for percentage but those levels would be waaaay too powerful, maybe like 3% max, otherwise I could probably walk up to a heavy as he's trying to gun me down.
CLONE117 Planetary Response Organization Test Friends Please Ignore 336	Posted - 2013.09.11 21:03:00 - [32] - Quote ^ and this is one reason why armor rep modules r currently the way they r currently...
lithkul devant Legions of Infinite Dominion 60	Posted - 2013.09.11 21:52:00 - [33] - Quote Komodo Jones wrote: Don't tell me you're talking about the logi suit bonus being a percentage too, even without that a couple of complex armor reppers could make me pretty much invincible, 10% per second? and I can bring that up to like 600 armor on my logi easily so about 60 armor/sec, thats more than shields...lol. Maybe have a variant for percentage but those levels would be waaaay too powerful, maybe like 3% max, otherwise I could probably walk up to a heavy as he's trying to gun me down. Learn to read noob, I was not ever saying it should be 10% I was saying 10% as an example of the difference between a 400 and a 100 hps....Sorry but you deserve the scorn for not even bothering to read.
lithkul devant Legions of Infinite Dominion 60	Posted - 2013.09.11 21:55:00 - [34] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Progressive armor return based upon suit type is really not much different to what we have at the moment - it's just not needed. Actually it would be vastly different since 2% of 400 is a lot more then 3% of 100, I was pointing out though that light suits need a little bit of love also and not to be forgotten by the way sides. Which was one of the complaints within the forum, that light suits would be getting messed over even more. Also, I'm not suggesting that these be the actual number, just giving an easy example of why Heavy suits should not be getting a high percentage compared to light.
gargantuise aaron Sanguine Knights 141	Posted - 2013.09.11 22:11:00 - [35] - Quote Sure as long as they remove flux nades give 50 more hp at mlt level to shields and cut charge delay un half Armor is a stand your ground type you get lots more hp les regen Shields are pop out gun and pop back in less HP better regen Btw I dual tank caldari, i have 280 s 230 a and a basic repper, if you want more regening pop in a single shield extender it makes a great buffer for repairing
Text Grant Conspiratus Immortalis 144	Posted - 2013.09.12 05:12:00 - [36] - Quote No. This would make any heavy OP
Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Top Men. 422	Posted - 2013.09.12 10:58:00 - [37] - Quote Text Grant wrote: No. This would make any heavy OP No, it would make the heavy viable.
Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Top Men. 422	Posted - 2013.09.12 11:01:00 - [38] - Quote lithkul devant wrote: Django Quik wrote: Progressive armor return based upon suit type is really not much different to what we have at the moment - it's just not needed. Actually it would be vastly different since 2% of 400 is a lot more then 3% of 100, I was pointing out though that light suits need a little bit of love also and not to be forgotten by the way sides. Which was one of the complaints within the forum, that light suits would be getting messed over even more. Also, I'm not suggesting that these be the actual number, just giving an easy example of why Heavy suits should not be getting a high percentage compared to light. The max for a heavy suit though I would believe, could be at maybe 3% more like 2.5%, because at 800 hps is 24 hp/s which is nearly to powerful (800*.03=24), you might say right now that no way a heavy could ever get to this point, but we have yet to see what a Gallente heavy would be, which I think could easily be 800-900hps on just armor alone. Which is why I think percentage based healing could be very important to armor suits in the future. However, it needs to be kept in check and not let the percentages get to high at all. Also, do not quote the numbers I just used, they are just examples make up your own determinations if this is a good or bad idea. Everyone sees big repair numbers, but at the heart of it it's not that OP. When a heavy can be dropped in under 2-3 seconds, you're only talking a total of between 75-100 HP repaired, which is 2-3 bullets worth of damage. In sustained fire situations, the only thing this would accomplish is perhaps giving the heavy a chance to react before they're mercilessly gunned down. Right now, heavies don't even have time to react before they get destroyed by AR's. I imagine CCP won't ever nerf weapon Time to Kill, so something needs to be done about survivablity and time to combat-ready.
Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Top Men. 422	Posted - 2013.09.12 11:07:00 - [39] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Kekklian Noobatronic wrote: The-Errorist wrote: This is not needed. This would nerf lights frames, nerf Minmatar, and make heavies repair more armor than shields per second, as well as not need as much repair support. 1) I've said it already - Light frames need more help than the scope of this. Besides, light frames don't really armor tank, now do they? No, they don't armor tank; they armor rep tank. With their few advantages being speed and stealth, it's all about darting in and out of cover and using their innate high shield reps and a complex armor repper to get to full health again quickly. Whilst other suits can properly armor tank and take lots of damage while fending off attackers, even with extra plates, you're not tanking anything in a light suit. With a current complex repper you get 100 armour in 16 seconds. That's not bad, especially considering (bugs aside) there's no delay on armour repping like there is (supposed to be - still not sure if this bug got fixed in 1.4) with shields. With some suits you can stack several of these and be constantly repping 25 armor per second even under fire! Having reps percentage based makes them massively beneficial for high armor suits and meaningless for anyone else. You should not be able to tank high armour and high reps - it should be a trade off of one or the other, just like it is with shields. I hate to burst your bubble, but comparing two suits at 5% armor(one heavy, one light) - with no additional buffer - they will both get repaired to full in the exact same amount of time. Furthermore, each suit has advantages and disadvantages. Light suits aside(they suck and are confirmed to get love in 1.6), the disadvantages that Heavies have in terms of getting back into the fight are way higher than those of a Medium frame, which can pack equipment AND buffer itself on-par with a heavy suit. I know everyone is freaking out that this is "OMFG SO OP", but seriously. Stop looking at it on paper and think. You can drop a heavy - even one with a buffer tank up to 1300 EHP - with a militia AR in a matter of seconds. They're super slow(especially with that much buffer), and a massive target. Adding 100 EHP via reps during the course of the firefight is not going to dramatically change the engagement. All it's going to do is allow them - should they get away - to get back in the fight in a reasonable amount of time.
KalOfTheRathi Black Phoenix Mercenaries 701	Posted - 2013.09.12 12:23:00 - [40] - Quote Sorry, this is how it works. Yes, it would be great if it did percentages. It doesn't. If you are running Heavy with huge armor values you need a Logi Bro. Who has a great Repair Tool. Or Armor repair hives (Proto give 70HP/sec). Or STD level Armor Hives and Repair Tools. Then you can stay alive if you get back when damaged and don't jump back in until you are fully repaired. Same happens with Shields. Some piddly amount comes back every second. If you drop the max amount of shields you can run the energizers that will boost it back quicker. But the boost is based on the piddly rate getting increased. Not providing a percentage of your shields back. DUST is a game of balances. Many games are but DUST takes that to certain extremes. Congratulations. You found one of them.

Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Top Men. 428	Posted - 2013.09.12 15:01:00 - [41] - Quote KalOfTheRathi wrote: Sorry, this is how it works. Yes, it would be great if it did percentages. It doesn't. If you are running Heavy with huge armor values you need a Logi Bro. Who has a great Repair Tool. Or Armor repair hives (Proto give 70HP/sec). Or STD level Armor Hives and Repair Tools. Then you can stay alive if you get back when damaged and don't jump back in until you are fully repaired. Same happens with Shields. Some piddly amount comes back every second. If you drop the max amount of shields you can run the energizers that will boost it back quicker. But the boost is based on the piddly rate getting increased. Not providing a percentage of your shields back. DUST is a game of balances. Many games are but DUST takes that to certain extremes. Congratulations. You found one of them. Shields have varying rates of repair, but armor modules do not :/ Medium shield tankers can reach 500-600 buffer(no small amount), and are not penalized in their repair rates(25hp/sec). They also have modules to increase their recharge rate and delay. And we don't even have Caldari Heavies yet. Imagine how high their sheilds will reach, and they will still get the inherent 25hp/sec repair rates. Then imagine Galente Heavies. No built in repair for them, getting stuck with the same crappy 6.25 hp/sec modules. Yea, that's fair right? Armor tankers have a piddly 6.25HP/sec repair module, with no way to modify that. Everyone thinks that 'buffer tank' is everything. Again I say, I should not require a Logistics player at my back to be effective. If I want to run a small buffer with a decent level of repair, why is that such an invalid request? So what I'm armor tanker - give me the tools to armor tank and be effective, without relying on a single, eventually suicidal play style. Not everyone likes squads or has friends to play with you know. Solo players should not be penalized just because "Oh well, there are logistics players that can repair you". That is why armor repair needs a re-evaluation. Right now, shield tanking is dominant because it's given the tools it needs to be effective. Armor tankers do not have those tools, and giving the ability to have repairs based off the suits intended purpose(it's starting stats) if not 'game breaking'. It allows suits to fit the way they were intended, and successfully fulfill those roles. I can say right now, I feel bad for Galente heavies because we'll never see any under the current system. Caldari heavies will have too much of an advantage due to their higher built in regen values. Hopefully CCP overhauls armor repair. If not the way I suggested, then at least some way.
lithkul devant Legions of Infinite Dominion 62	Posted - 2013.09.12 16:29:00 - [42] - Quote Kekklian Noobatronic wrote: lithkul devant wrote: Django Quik wrote: Progressive armor return based upon suit type is really not much different to what we have at the moment - it's just not needed. Actually it would be vastly different since 2% of 400 is a lot more then 3% of 100, I was pointing out though that light suits need a little bit of love also and not to be forgotten by the way sides. Which was one of the complaints within the forum, that light suits would be getting messed over even more. Also, I'm not suggesting that these be the actual number, just giving an easy example of why Heavy suits should not be getting a high percentage compared to light. The max for a heavy suit though I would believe, could be at maybe 3% more like 2.5%, because at 800 hps is 24 hp/s which is nearly to powerful (800*.03=24), you might say right now that no way a heavy could ever get to this point, but we have yet to see what a Gallente heavy would be, which I think could easily be 800-900hps on just armor alone. Which is why I think percentage based healing could be very important to armor suits in the future. However, it needs to be kept in check and not let the percentages get to high at all. Also, do not quote the numbers I just used, they are just examples make up your own determinations if this is a good or bad idea. Everyone sees big repair numbers, but at the heart of it it's not that OP. When a heavy can be dropped in under 2-3 seconds, you're only talking a total of between 75-100 HP repaired, which is 2-3 bullets worth of damage. In sustained fire situations, the only thing this would accomplish is perhaps giving the heavy a chance to react before they're mercilessly gunned down. Right now, heavies don't even have time to react before they get destroyed by AR's. I imagine CCP won't ever nerf weapon Time to Kill, so something needs to be done about survivablity and time to combat-ready. It's really not OP at all considering I was doing math of what a Gallente heavy would be like, which means the shields for the heavy would probably be at 200 and the repair rate on the shields would be worse then what is on the current Amarr heavy. People would be directly shooting into the armor of this heavy most of the time, the armor repairer would only be absorbing like you said 2-3 extra bullets during the engagement, the heavy would still have to repair a lot of damage at a slower repair rate then most shields, I also mentioned during it that 3% would be high and the more likely value would be around 2.5% which would have it be doing around 20 per tick, this would be considered probably the proto version of the percentile repairers for the heavies. Compare that to the current logi's who can get 40 shield a second I think (not entirely sure), 1-5 armor a second just for skilling up the logi chain and can have over 400-500 shields and 400 armor as well, this by itself already beats my example of the potential Gallente heavy in Ehp and effectiveness of recharge as the logis already currently beat the Amarr heavies often enough in Ehp as well or least come very close to the same totals yet the logis are way better if they are just combat focussed and are not trying to heal others.
Django Quik Dust2Dust. Top Men. 1437	Posted - 2013.09.12 20:03:00 - [43] - Quote Like I mentioned previously, you have to choose between the different types of tanking - if you can armor tank and armor rep tank at the same time, that is too strong. That said, I agree that current reppers are a tad too weak and perhaps a proto rep rate of 8hp/s or even 10hp/s would be more worthwhile. But any kind of % based repper is far stronger for heavies and other high armor suits than anyone else. Yes, it will rep all suits to full health in the same but how is that fair? Repping a heavy at 25hp/s and a light at 5hp/s? If you changed it for each suit (an awfully confusing complication both to code and to understand) you could make it so that heavies get 3%, mediums 6% and lights 10%... oh wait, that's pretty much exactly the same as 2 complex reppers now! Good job, let's keep them as they are then.
Epicsting pro Planetary Response Organization Test Friends Please Ignore 273	Posted - 2013.09.22 04:59:00 - [44] - Quote I openly support higher armor regen.
Django Quik Dust2Dust. Top Men. 1500	Posted - 2013.09.22 07:20:00 - [45] - Quote Epicsting pro wrote: I openly support higher armor regen. Yes, higher armour regen. That would be achieved by buffing repair mods, not by making new mods that create a huge imbalance across all suit types.


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