DUST Search - [Idea] %HP based Armor Repair Modules

Django Quik wrote:

Kekklian Noobatronic wrote:

The-Errorist wrote:

This is not needed. This would nerf lights frames, nerf Minmatar, and make heavies repair more armor than shields per second, as well as not need as much repair support.

1) I've said it already - Light frames need more help than the scope of this. Besides, light frames don't really armor tank, now do they?

No, they don't armor tank; they armor rep tank. With their few advantages being speed and stealth, it's all about darting in and out of cover and using their innate high shield reps and a complex armor repper to get to full health again quickly. Whilst other suits can properly armor tank and take lots of damage while fending off attackers, even with extra plates, you're not tanking anything in a light suit.

With a current complex repper you get 100 armour in 16 seconds. That's not bad, especially considering (bugs aside) there's no delay on armour repping like there is (supposed to be - still not sure if this bug got fixed in 1.4) with shields. With some suits you can stack several of these and be constantly repping 25 armor per second even under fire!

Having reps percentage based makes them massively beneficial for high armor suits and meaningless for anyone else. You should not be able to tank high armour and high reps - it should be a trade off of one or the other, just like it is with shields.


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Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Top Men. 403	Posted - 2013.09.10 14:46:00 - [1] - Quote Simply put - current armor repair is insufficient What if we changed the Armor repair modules to repair a % of base suit HP, based on the module being used. I.e. 2%, 3%, 5% armor repair modules. This would drastically increase the time-to-combat for heavily injured soldiers, and would scale well with armor tanking. If you kept the repair amount at base HP values, it would provide an increased repair for most suits vs current repair speeds, while keeping in line with intended suit roles(Shield tanker, Armor tanker, Balanced tanker). Right now a depleted heavy with 25 left of 750 armor will take a whopping 91(!!!) seconds to repair back to full health with Armor Repair 5 and a Complex Repair Module!!! In a 'run of the mill' 15 min skirmish, that's 1/10th of the entire match, barring a logistics player or resupply station!!! Take that same suit to domination or ambush game, and that means the player is now taking between 1/7th or 1/5th an average match to repair to full. Talk about waiting(Not to mention, a straight up recipe for clone-loss and lack of being able to compete with shield tankers)!! Some examples based off of a % Base HP repair system(Assumed Armor Repair V, no bonus assumed under new system) Amarr Heavy with 750 Armor, 1 Complex Repair Module Current: 25 Armor to 750 Armor - 91 seconds (8hp/sec) New: 25 Armor to 750 Armor - 30 seconds (25hp/sec) Caldari Assault with 350 Armor, 1 Complex Repair Module Current: 25 Armor to 350 Armor - 41 Seconds (8hp/sec) New: 25 Armor to 350 Armor - 47 Seconds (7.5hp/sec) Amarr Logistics(Logistics III) w/ 450 Armor, 2 Enhanced Repair Modules Current: 25 Armor to 450 Armor - 33 Seconds (13hp/sec) New: 25 Armor to 450 Armor - 30 Seconds (14hp/sec) Galente Standard w/ 500 Armor, 1 Complex Repair Modules Current: 25 Armor to 500 Armor - 60 Seconds (8Hp/sec) New: 25 Armor to 500 Armor - 43 Seconds (11 HP/sec) This would encourage people to use equipment which was meant for their suit, without completely gimping those who decide that they want to different fits. Let's take the Caldari Assault Suit. He loses a touch of armor repair speed, but the suit itself was not designed as an armor tanking suit(150 Armor, 220 Shield). This would result in a small - but noticeable - decrease in repair speed. While not gimping the suit, it would make more sense to pack on shield rechargers or regulators to increase the suits strong suit(Notice, shield Rechargers offer % bonus increases to a large flat amount already) We can also see from above that this would favor suits with higher base HP values, such as Heavies and Galente users. Coincidentally, these users are also the classes with slot layouts that encourage armor tanking, and that *tend to armor tank in the first place*! Heavies especially see a marked increase in surviveability, which would go a long way to helping them do as their description says - "Shrug off small arms fire". Considering a standard AR in it's current form can drop a 1100 HP heavy in under 3 seconds flat, this would go a good way towards making the heavy an actual.. Heavy! Assuming of course, the user puts on repair modules :). "But what bonus would the skill now apply?!" Glad you asked, Jimmy! I'm not sure! Probably one that increased the amount repaired based off base HP values - maybe adding .1% or .2% increase per level to the repair rate. Or, perhaps increasing the repair cycle rate by .05 per level, bringing the repair cycle from 1.0 to .75 seconds. Just an idea. It's certainly one to consider, considering the current woeful state that armor repair is in. Right now, people just stack Plates and hope that they can get to a Supply station to swap before they die. Or, if they're Mediums, they just drop an armor hive - something Heavies cannot do. But on the whole, the repair system as it stands right now is inadequate to provide meaningful repair to clones on the ground - especially Heavies and Gallente :(.
Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Top Men. 403	Posted - 2013.09.10 14:48:00 - [2] - Quote Reserved for more math. Maybe.
Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Top Men. 405	Posted - 2013.09.10 16:59:00 - [3] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: armor reppers seem fine to me.. You're either trolling me, run low-armor suits, or don't mind waiting awhile to get back in the fight ;)
Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Top Men. 405	Posted - 2013.09.10 18:39:00 - [4] - Quote Django Quik wrote: This unfairly (and probably unintentionally) gimps armor repair for light suits in comparison to the larger frames. Also, it doesn't balance with shield reps, which only repair a set value per second. Yes, I'll admit. I have no idea how to balance light suits. Thats why I did not even touch those. They need help beyond the scope of this particular post. As far as shield reps, every suit reguardless gets 20/sec. How is that not balanced? Light, Medium, Heavy. If you want to boost the amount repaired with shields, there's a module for that(not to mention a plethora of suit skills). Armor? Nope, just your best option is an 8hp/sec module, with prohibitively high fitting costs Want more than 8 HP/sec? Good luck fitting anything else. Armor tankers must gimp themselves to achieve even a reasonable level of armor repair. I'm not going to crosslink to my other posts, in it's current state, a 3 complex-shield Caldari Assault still gets into the fight far quicker than it's Galente armor advisory, on the scale of 25+ seconds or more per engagement. Armor repair is crap. If you don't like my above idea, then add to it.
Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Top Men. 405	Posted - 2013.09.10 19:24:00 - [5] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: 4 hp armor a second is really quite good for armor. No offense, but I stopped reading right here. Go run around in a MLT heavy suit. Or Standard. You'll have about 500 Armor HP. Let me know how that 4 armor/sec works out for you. For the record, a heavy can die in about 2-3 seconds to a single MLT AR user. That 'constantly repairing' repper you mentioned? It only repaired 12 damage during the course of that 1100+damage/3 sec engagement. Hardly worth even mentioning.
Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Top Men. 410	Posted - 2013.09.11 07:11:00 - [6] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: This is not needed. This would nerf lights frames, nerf Minmatar, and make heavies repair more armor than shields per second, as well as not need as much repair support. 1) I've said it already - Light frames need more help than the scope of this. Besides, light frames don't really armor tank, now do they? 2) How exactly does this nerf Minmitar? 3) Yes, heavies will repair more than they currently do. Maybe it's partly because they're Heavy? 4) This does not change the requirement for repair support. And speaking as a heavy who has been playing since Chromo, I'm going to flat out say that there really are not that many repair supporters out there - especially in this build. I for one don't wan to play a class that's reliant on people who don't repair.
Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Top Men. 411	Posted - 2013.09.11 07:17:00 - [7] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: then explain why im getting top of the leader boards almost every match with a very good positive kdr? when im in the middle of the fire fight majority of the time.. oh right i know why! i use strategy!. This is insulting, as it implies that I don't understand what "strategy" is. It also implies that gasp maybe you're facing lower-skilled players in the Queue. Matchmaking, yo. CLONE117 wrote: that mlt heavy suit with a mlt armor repper only has 380 armor... its not going to last long in a major fire fight but for small cqc engagements it works quit well. a single mlt ar clip can kill a heavy.... or at least drain all the shields allowing the secondary to finish it off... i seem to be the only one on this game that knows how to properly take cover... i seem to stick out on the radar/mini map but for some reason i still manage to sneak past ppl... self awareness is key to winning any close engagement during a firefight.. running into direct gun fire should always result in death... as it does currently.. the current armor reppers r good enough... if u want fast armor repair go get a logi.. Not really sure how to reply to this. It's got multiple bad points. MLT AR's killing heavies in 1 clip(Lol), implying that you're the only person that uses cover(Lol), generally speaking like you're the best at the game(Lol). Look dude, I've never faced you, and I've not really seen you post. But I can judge pretty easily by your admission that you don't have anything past MLT(core skills aside) that you really haven't been at this long, and have not had the chance to explore the different playstyles and what not that this game has to offer. I've already indicated in my post what would happen to Medium suits - small changes in armor repair values, at best, with overall time-to-ready decreased by a matter of 10 seconds in most cases for Medium suits. It's not a nerf, and it's not a huge buff to Mediums. So I really don't know why you're throwing such a fit. As far as I'm concerned, I'm going to disregard your future posts, as I'm fairly sure I'm either A) being trolled or B) you really are lacking experience with anything past MLT. By your own admission that is.
Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Top Men. 413	Posted - 2013.09.11 13:53:00 - [8] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: Cosgar wrote: If scaled properly, I wouldn't mind seeing this on reactive plates. It'd make the crazy fitting costs worthwhile. I like Cosgar's idea. Reactive plates need a whole overhaul. Give them a flat bonus to armour HP, then add the 'reactive' effect: From the instant you take damage, the reactive plate records how much damage to take for the next 2 seconds. Then after those two seconds, it repairs over time 50/60/70% of the damage taken in those two seconds. Then the plates go on cooldown for 10 seconds or so. Make the armour plate skill include a unique effect for reactive plates which lowers the amount of time it takes to repair the damage, or lower the cooldown. This would be as far as I'd go with percentage repairs. Giving a passive 1-2% regeneration is too much for me. Maybe on repair tools, sure. But on armour plates is risky. Never said put it on armor plates. :) Talking repair modules, and only talking repairing a percent of base HP. That means that no matter how much buffer you put on, the suit will still only repair a certain amount per cycle. The only difference is, the cycles are more balanced towards the suit's purpose and HP. Armor suits and heavies will have an inherently higher regeneration rate, while Shield Suits will have repair speeds comparable to the current values.
Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Top Men. 422	Posted - 2013.09.12 10:58:00 - [9] - Quote Text Grant wrote: No. This would make any heavy OP No, it would make the heavy viable.
Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Top Men. 422	Posted - 2013.09.12 11:01:00 - [10] - Quote lithkul devant wrote: Django Quik wrote: Progressive armor return based upon suit type is really not much different to what we have at the moment - it's just not needed. Actually it would be vastly different since 2% of 400 is a lot more then 3% of 100, I was pointing out though that light suits need a little bit of love also and not to be forgotten by the way sides. Which was one of the complaints within the forum, that light suits would be getting messed over even more. Also, I'm not suggesting that these be the actual number, just giving an easy example of why Heavy suits should not be getting a high percentage compared to light. The max for a heavy suit though I would believe, could be at maybe 3% more like 2.5%, because at 800 hps is 24 hp/s which is nearly to powerful (800*.03=24), you might say right now that no way a heavy could ever get to this point, but we have yet to see what a Gallente heavy would be, which I think could easily be 800-900hps on just armor alone. Which is why I think percentage based healing could be very important to armor suits in the future. However, it needs to be kept in check and not let the percentages get to high at all. Also, do not quote the numbers I just used, they are just examples make up your own determinations if this is a good or bad idea. Everyone sees big repair numbers, but at the heart of it it's not that OP. When a heavy can be dropped in under 2-3 seconds, you're only talking a total of between 75-100 HP repaired, which is 2-3 bullets worth of damage. In sustained fire situations, the only thing this would accomplish is perhaps giving the heavy a chance to react before they're mercilessly gunned down. Right now, heavies don't even have time to react before they get destroyed by AR's. I imagine CCP won't ever nerf weapon Time to Kill, so something needs to be done about survivablity and time to combat-ready.

Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Top Men. 422	Posted - 2013.09.12 11:07:00 - [11] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Kekklian Noobatronic wrote: The-Errorist wrote: This is not needed. This would nerf lights frames, nerf Minmatar, and make heavies repair more armor than shields per second, as well as not need as much repair support. 1) I've said it already - Light frames need more help than the scope of this. Besides, light frames don't really armor tank, now do they? No, they don't armor tank; they armor rep tank. With their few advantages being speed and stealth, it's all about darting in and out of cover and using their innate high shield reps and a complex armor repper to get to full health again quickly. Whilst other suits can properly armor tank and take lots of damage while fending off attackers, even with extra plates, you're not tanking anything in a light suit. With a current complex repper you get 100 armour in 16 seconds. That's not bad, especially considering (bugs aside) there's no delay on armour repping like there is (supposed to be - still not sure if this bug got fixed in 1.4) with shields. With some suits you can stack several of these and be constantly repping 25 armor per second even under fire! Having reps percentage based makes them massively beneficial for high armor suits and meaningless for anyone else. You should not be able to tank high armour and high reps - it should be a trade off of one or the other, just like it is with shields. I hate to burst your bubble, but comparing two suits at 5% armor(one heavy, one light) - with no additional buffer - they will both get repaired to full in the exact same amount of time. Furthermore, each suit has advantages and disadvantages. Light suits aside(they suck and are confirmed to get love in 1.6), the disadvantages that Heavies have in terms of getting back into the fight are way higher than those of a Medium frame, which can pack equipment AND buffer itself on-par with a heavy suit. I know everyone is freaking out that this is "OMFG SO OP", but seriously. Stop looking at it on paper and think. You can drop a heavy - even one with a buffer tank up to 1300 EHP - with a militia AR in a matter of seconds. They're super slow(especially with that much buffer), and a massive target. Adding 100 EHP via reps during the course of the firefight is not going to dramatically change the engagement. All it's going to do is allow them - should they get away - to get back in the fight in a reasonable amount of time.
Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Top Men. 428	Posted - 2013.09.12 15:01:00 - [12] - Quote KalOfTheRathi wrote: Sorry, this is how it works. Yes, it would be great if it did percentages. It doesn't. If you are running Heavy with huge armor values you need a Logi Bro. Who has a great Repair Tool. Or Armor repair hives (Proto give 70HP/sec). Or STD level Armor Hives and Repair Tools. Then you can stay alive if you get back when damaged and don't jump back in until you are fully repaired. Same happens with Shields. Some piddly amount comes back every second. If you drop the max amount of shields you can run the energizers that will boost it back quicker. But the boost is based on the piddly rate getting increased. Not providing a percentage of your shields back. DUST is a game of balances. Many games are but DUST takes that to certain extremes. Congratulations. You found one of them. Shields have varying rates of repair, but armor modules do not :/ Medium shield tankers can reach 500-600 buffer(no small amount), and are not penalized in their repair rates(25hp/sec). They also have modules to increase their recharge rate and delay. And we don't even have Caldari Heavies yet. Imagine how high their sheilds will reach, and they will still get the inherent 25hp/sec repair rates. Then imagine Galente Heavies. No built in repair for them, getting stuck with the same crappy 6.25 hp/sec modules. Yea, that's fair right? Armor tankers have a piddly 6.25HP/sec repair module, with no way to modify that. Everyone thinks that 'buffer tank' is everything. Again I say, I should not require a Logistics player at my back to be effective. If I want to run a small buffer with a decent level of repair, why is that such an invalid request? So what I'm armor tanker - give me the tools to armor tank and be effective, without relying on a single, eventually suicidal play style. Not everyone likes squads or has friends to play with you know. Solo players should not be penalized just because "Oh well, there are logistics players that can repair you". That is why armor repair needs a re-evaluation. Right now, shield tanking is dominant because it's given the tools it needs to be effective. Armor tankers do not have those tools, and giving the ability to have repairs based off the suits intended purpose(it's starting stats) if not 'game breaking'. It allows suits to fit the way they were intended, and successfully fulfill those roles. I can say right now, I feel bad for Galente heavies because we'll never see any under the current system. Caldari heavies will have too much of an advantage due to their higher built in regen values. Hopefully CCP overhauls armor repair. If not the way I suggested, then at least some way.