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PADDEHATPIGEN
BurgezzE.T.F
35
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Posted - 2013.09.08 08:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
A blueprint is an instruction manual whit drawings on how to make/build something, and what materials you need to build it.
When i go to the marked and buy some duvolle assault rifles, im getting rifles NOT BPC's. i dont have to craft anything, and we cant craft in Dust at all.
When i go to the marked and buy a BPO of a millitia assault rifle, im NOT getting a BPO, im getting a rifle i dont Loose in combat when i die, its not a BPO.
I think its a Little funny and also a fail, that 2 games (Eve online and Dust 514) Both goes on in New Eden, the games are Integrated, pilots and mercs are in the same corps, but BPO's and BPC's are 2 very diferent things in the 2 games.
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Akdhar Saif
CybinSect
52
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Posted - 2013.09.08 09:36:00 -
[2] - Quote
It's this lack of integration that's killing dust.
Without integration between the two games, Dust is just a lobby FPS with a big grind.
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SgtDoughnut
M.E.R.C. Elite D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
36
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Posted - 2013.09.08 09:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
You actually are not buying the rifles, what you are buying is an instruction set (aka blueprints) for when you respawn. Each of these instruction sets is only good for 1 copy, when you respawn it uses a small wormhole and nano machines to transport your fresh clone to the location, then using the nano machines it assembles the suit and weapons on the fly.
This is why when you swap suits in a depo it gives you full armor, and it also does not store the old suit and its condition, its much faster and easier on the machine and nanites to just make a fresh copy, since you are still alive and able to interact the supply depo is able to use your current set of instructions to rebuild the suit. |
R F Gyro
Clones 4u
488
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Posted - 2013.09.08 09:59:00 -
[4] - Quote
SgtDoughnut wrote:You actually are not buying the rifles, what you are buying is an instruction set (aka blueprints) for when you respawn. Each of these instruction sets is only good for 1 copy, when you respawn it uses a small wormhole and nano machines to transport your fresh clone to the location, then using the nano machines it assembles the suit and weapons on the fly.
This is why when you swap suits in a depo it gives you full armor, and it also does not store the old suit and its condition, its much faster and easier on the machine and nanites to just make a fresh copy, since you are still alive and able to interact the supply depo is able to use your current set of instructions to rebuild the suit. That makes sense to me. It explains why I have 45 GEK Assault Rifles in my inventory, but they can appear at any point on any planet instantly when I need them. |
Needless Sacermendor
Red Fox Brigade
434
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Posted - 2013.09.08 11:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
It's also pre-empting the development of manufacture DUST side.
At some point you will have to install those BPOs n BPCs into a research lab to manufacture x amount of those items which will take x amount of time ... maybe up to a day for a HAV hull, probably a week for an MCC etc.
It's getting people accustomed to the idea that they're not buying items, they're buying the means to make them, even though right now they are being made for you, behind the scenes. |
PADDEHATPIGEN
BurgezzE.T.F
35
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Posted - 2013.09.08 12:33:00 -
[6] - Quote
Right now when players buy a BPO on the marked in Dust they think the are getting free stuff for the rest of there lives, i think a lot of players are going to get very pissed if they change it to a crafting BPO like we have it in Eve.
Crap i just rembered i got all the BPO's. hehe
But i still hope i happens ;) hehe |
Monkey MAC
killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance
303
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Posted - 2013.09.08 12:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
PADDEHATPIGEN wrote:Right now when players buy a BPO on the marked in Dust they think the are getting free stuff for the rest of there lives, i think a lot of players are going to get very pissed if they change it to a crafting BPO like we have it in Eve.
Crap i just rembered i got all the BPO's. hehe
But i still hope i happens ;) hehe
I dont think there will be tok much of an uproar since bpo can be used indefinitely, what it instead means is you have to consider, what you need to focus on, bpo suits you can sell on the market for quick easy cash, or suits that you need for yourself, besides bpo suits ar usually no higher than adv so you cant exactly compete with them on pc!! And unless you get through a tonne of bpo lavs a match you could easily run a batch of say 100 and that will do for a few weeks!! |
Robert JD Niewiadomski
NULLIMPEX INC
498
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Posted - 2013.09.08 14:07:00 -
[8] - Quote
Needless Sacermendor wrote:It's also pre-empting the development of manufacture DUST side.
At some point you will have to install those BPOs n BPCs into a research lab to manufacture x amount of those items which will take x amount of time ... maybe up to a day for a HAV hull, probably a week for an MCC etc.
It's getting people accustomed to the idea that they're not buying items, they're buying the means to make them, even though right now they are being made for you, behind the scenes. But if you own BPO you can run research on it to upgrade it's meta level. And then you can make BPC and sell them to other mercs in need. Or just give them to your corpmembers. A kind of corp's armory.
I am not sure if it will ever take off. The only way you can buy BPO is with real cash. Nobody knows if player to player trading will include AUR BPCs & BPOs. And nobody knows if mercs will be able to research BPOs and make BPCs out of them.
There IS open market planned for DUST. And ISK transfer between EVE and DUST. I am not sure about items. Only CCP knows the details. But is not ready to tell us...
PS There IS something that doesn't sqare for me. In EVE we "actually" store items in our hangars. Not specifically BPOs and BPCs. The items have assigned volume and mass. They ate "tangible". In respect with VR of New Eden of course So why it's different anyway with DUST "items" limited to BPOs and BPCs only? |
Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster
919
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Posted - 2013.09.08 14:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
Needless Sacermendor wrote:It's also pre-empting the development of manufacture DUST side.
At some point you will have to install those BPOs n BPCs into a research lab to manufacture x amount of those items which will take x amount of time ... maybe up to a day for a HAV hull, probably a week for an MCC etc.
It's getting people accustomed to the idea that they're not buying items, they're buying the means to make them, even though right now they are being made for you, behind the scenes. I've never played EVE, but man I can't wait to start producing stuff.
Though I am worried that most people aren't going to "embrace" the idea of making your own stuff. |
S Park Finner
Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY
266
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Posted - 2013.09.08 14:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
PADDEHATPIGEN wrote:A blueprint is an instruction manual whit drawings on how to make/build something, and what materials you need to build it.
When i go to the marked and buy some duvolle assault rifles, im getting rifles NOT BPC's. i dont have to craft anything, and we cant craft in Dust at all.
When i go to the marked and buy a BPO of a millitia assault rifle, im NOT getting a BPO, im getting a rifle i dont Loose in combat when i die, its not a BPO.
I think its a Little funny and also a fail, that 2 games (Eve online and Dust 514) Both goes on in New Eden, the games are Integrated, pilots and mercs are in the same corps, but BPO's and BPC's are 2 very different things in the 2 games. Thanks for this thread.
SgtDoughnut has a good back story that fits with EVE lore when he says Quote:You actually are not buying the rifles, what you are buying is an instruction set (aka blueprints) for when you respawn. Each of these instruction sets is only good for 1 copy, when you respawn it uses a small wormhole and nano machines to transport your fresh clone to the location, then using the nano machines it assembles the suit and weapons on the fly.
This is why when you swap suits in a depo it gives you full armor, and it also does not store the old suit and its condition, its much faster and easier on the machine and nanites to just make a fresh copy, since you are still alive and able to interact the supply depo is able to use your current set of instructions to rebuild the suit. As other folks have said -- even though it will be a long time down the road -- crafting in DUST 514 will bring a lot of changes. It may be that when that happens Mercs or corporations won't have to pay for the BPO after they acquire it -- but the will have to rent / buy the manufacturing facilities and materials even for BPOs they own. An alternative is just to buy everything off the market. Another story could be that whoever contracts the battle provides the materials and facilities and the Mercs provide the "templates" for the equipment they prefer.
It's a tribute to CCP that in EVE they actually addressed the thorny problem of Digital Rights Management in the age of 3D local manufacturing 10 years ago.
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Lorhak Gannarsein
Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION
295
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Posted - 2013.09.08 14:22:00 -
[11] - Quote
I don't know if DUST-side production would be a good thing; this isn't really an open-world game, after all. We could supply materials to EVE, but I don't really see how we'd have things like mining, say, without it becoming nothing more than a glorified Facebook game. |
S Park Finner
Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY
266
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Posted - 2013.09.08 14:25:00 -
[12] - Quote
Robert JD Niewiadomski wrote:... There IS something that doesn't sqare for me. In EVE we "actually" store items in our hangars. Not specifically BPOs and BPCs. The items have assigned volume and mass. They ate "tangible". In respect with VR of New Eden of course So why it's different anyway with DUST "items" limited to BPOs and BPCs only? How about this...
Even in New Eden technology moves on. DUST 514 clone technology is more flexible than EVE clone technology. Why not on-the-fly manufacturing? Those new BPOs and BPC have in them the knowledge to manufacture single items very rapidly if they have the new assembly structures, materials and short-distance-delivery-systems in place.
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Needless Sacermendor
Red Fox Brigade
440
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Posted - 2013.09.08 14:32:00 -
[13] - Quote
Robert JD Niewiadomski wrote:But if you own BPO you can run research on it to upgrade it's meta level. And then you can make BPC and sell them to other mercs in need. Or just give them to your corpmembers. A kind of corp's armory. I am not sure if it will ever take off. The only way you can buy BPO is with real cash. Nobody knows if player to player trading will include AUR BPCs & BPOs. And nobody knows if mercs will be able to research BPOs and make BPCs out of them. There IS open market planned for DUST. And ISK transfer between EVE and DUST. I am not sure about items. Only CCP knows the details. But is not ready to tell us... PS There IS something that doesn't sqare for me. In EVE we "actually" store items in our hangars. Not specifically BPOs and BPCs. The items have assigned volume and mass. They ate "tangible". In respect with VR of New Eden of course So why it's different anyway with DUST "items" limited to BPOs and BPCs only? Yeah there's still some finer points to figure out ... like you say, we don't have any tangible physical items in DUST but if we did, how would we get them from our station hanger across the universe to the planet we're battling over !? I'm not sure CCP have even figured this out yet.
Yeah research and copies and T2 inventions can all be transferred over if we continue to use BPO / BPC model and Corp Armory would just be your corp hanger in whichever station you rent an office (just like Eve) ... or in ships with Corporation Hangers like Orca for Highsec n Capitals elsewhere.
At the moment the only way you can buy BPOs is with AUR ... yes ... but the secondary market will open up and everything will be purchasable with ISK ... just like T2 BPOs in Eve were only given out in the 'lottery', but can be bought for ISK. You won't be able to trade AUR, but you will be able to trade or sell for ISK anything you own, I could be missing something, but I'm pretty sure there's nothing you can't sell on the Market in Eve ... IF there is it can certainly be sold in contracts.
It's all 'unknown timescale' stuff ... but there's nothing I can see stopping them, other than the issue of having to move your physical items to each planet every time you enter a different battle. The proper planetary conquest battles n factional warfare could be Eve ship hauled to add some more connectivity with DUST corps paying for haulage or Eve corps getting better benefit from DUSTies controlling a planet for them etc. but for regular pub matches there'd have to be some sort of 'Concord Logistics' fleet or 'Jove teleportation' parcel delivery system ... I don't know, but it'll be interesting to see how they get round it ... which I'm sure they will eventually. |
S Park Finner
Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY
266
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Posted - 2013.09.08 14:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
R F Gyro wrote:... That makes sense to me. It explains why I have 45 GEK Assault Rifles in my inventory, but they can appear at any point on any planet instantly when I need them. If we draw out Sgt Doughnut's idea to those 45 BPCs you don't have the items in inventory -- you have the rights to build 45 items on-the-fly as you need them. It's a small thing, but if we're trying to build a back story it will make a difference.
Somebody -- the Mercenary, the corporation they belong to, the corporation funding the battle -- will provide high technology, small scale, high speed manufacturing and materials on the battlefield. The mercenary will provide the rights and instructions to build the equipment they prefer.
When the Mercenaries are starting out they don't get to customize -- they get the starter fits -- which are built in BPOs for basic stuff.
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Needless Sacermendor
Red Fox Brigade
440
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Posted - 2013.09.08 14:35:00 -
[15] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:I don't know if DUST-side production would be a good thing; this isn't really an open-world game, after all. We could supply materials to EVE, but I don't really see how we'd have things like mining, say, without it becoming nothing more than a glorified Facebook game. Resources can be gathered from owning planets, like PI in Eve ... 'resources over time' style ... sell your excesses n buy what you aren't producing to run your manufacture jobs.
If we didn't have any means to 'gather resources' we'd be entirely reliant on Eve which I think would be bad, and not what CCP wants for any aspect of either game. |
S Park Finner
Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY
266
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Posted - 2013.09.08 14:41:00 -
[16] - Quote
As far as research / BPO copying is concerned I could see that being limited to EVE side or to Mercenaries that want to invest in a crafting skill set. That way people that don't care don't have to deal with it. Those that do could make a deliberate choice to go in that direction. The EVE side work could be the back-up for it all. |
Skihids
Bullet Cluster
2033
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Posted - 2013.09.08 14:47:00 -
[17] - Quote
The items can't possibly be tangable as they are in EVE because we don't have time to wait for delivery.
In EVE you have time to load and transport items. In DUST you get an instant spawn and you go fight. Without just in time manufacturing you are stuck waiting in your CRU of choice for someone to come deliver your suit and weapons. You want those delivered by RDV? Meanwhile you are being shot at as you suit up and by then the match will be over.
This is another case where DUST and EVE can't work the same way. |
Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
1186
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Posted - 2013.09.08 15:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
My concept for the future of DUST industry is that major items will be manufactured ahead of time. Vehicles and other off map droppable items will be stored in a warbarge hanger and delivered as needed. Hopefully, a commander will have to commit to what items are delivered to the planet surface and when. Manufacturing can use the EVE infrastructure for this.
Infantry items, which are built on the fly using the licensed BPOs and BPCs, need player provided supply depots that contain some sort of "nanite material". The cost to produce items comes from the need to provide the supply depot and the material. Public matches can remain free with the contracting corp paying the for the material or charge a fee based on the blueprint's needs.
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Chimeric Destiny
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
54
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Posted - 2013.09.08 15:36:00 -
[19] - Quote
Akdhar Saif wrote:It's this lack of integration that's killing dust.
Without integration between the two games, Dust is just a lobby FPS with a big grind.
Integration wont help this game. Dust is a casual shooting experience with an utter stupidfail MMO grind. Its takes the worst aspects of both genres and mashes them together. Anyone who even remotely enjoy the console shooter genre and has been playing them for over a decade considers this game fail and simply hangs around the forums to tease the noobies who dont know better.
But don't worry noobies, we just wanted to tell you; It gets better (once you move on). |
Rusty Shallows
Black Jackals
362
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Posted - 2013.09.08 16:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:Needless Sacermendor wrote:It's also pre-empting the development of manufacture DUST side.
At some point you will have to install those BPOs n BPCs into a research lab to manufacture x amount of those items which will take x amount of time ... maybe up to a day for a HAV hull, probably a week for an MCC etc.
It's getting people accustomed to the idea that they're not buying items, they're buying the means to make them, even though right now they are being made for you, behind the scenes. I've never played EVE, but man I can't wait to start producing stuff. Though I am worried that most people aren't going to "embrace" the idea of making your own stuff. If Prototype stuff requires Datacores then many will be boned. Although I might have to reactivate my indy toon. He has many of those magical orbs for invention even if the "random" table is rather arbitrary. |
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Rogatien Merc
Red Star. EoN.
1075
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Posted - 2013.09.08 16:49:00 -
[21] - Quote
Robert JD Niewiadomski wrote:PS There IS something that doesn't sqare for me. In EVE we "actually" store items in our hangars. Not specifically BPOs and BPCs. The items have assigned volume and mass. They ate "tangible". In respect with VR of New Eden of course So why it's different anyway with DUST "items" limited to BPOs and BPCs only? We are all mercenaries fighting in cloned bodies which makes transporting material items cumbersome. Think of the BPO or BPC as the production rights for an item which the mercenary can buy from the corporation owning the copyright on the item. When you spawn in for a planetary battle, you are fighting for a specific corporation, so it might be helpful to think of the entire process as a behind-the-scenes contract between the mercenary, the weapons producers, and the corporations that hire mercenaries. Implicit in current contracts is that the merc will buy the rights to the weapon which the corp he is working for will provide (along with the clone the corp purchased through genulution) through on-the-spot nano-production.
The corp is square with the weapons producer and avoids conflict with THEM because they can say "hey! we're not infringing on your patents, we are using that merc's limited run production license", the weapon producing corp is happy because it is getting paid without having to produce anything new for each transaction (sort of like digital downloads IRL), the merc himself is happy because the merc can plug in whatever weapons he wants as he himself knows how to be most effective on the battlefied, and the corp at war is happy because they avoid transaction costs with the weapons producer while simplifying their own logistics chain. |
Rogatien Merc
Red Star. EoN.
1075
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Posted - 2013.09.08 16:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
Rogatien Merc wrote:Robert JD Niewiadomski wrote:PS There IS something that doesn't sqare for me. In EVE we "actually" store items in our hangars. Not specifically BPOs and BPCs. The items have assigned volume and mass. They ate "tangible". In respect with VR of New Eden of course So why it's different anyway with DUST "items" limited to BPOs and BPCs only? We are all mercenaries ...[words] .
Oh and also in the New Eden lore, space-based combat has been going on for many years with mortals. "Capsuleers" revolutionized space combat but have only been around for ~10 years in lore and as they were new and the entire capsuleer process is expensive (requires a capsule) they maintain a tie to the mortal realm - they are mortal when out of capsule. Spaceship-sized weapons are also much larger than infantry weapons and the cost of "on-demand" nano-production does NOT scale well to spaceship sizes, economically, so capsuleers remain tied to inventories.
"Mercs" are entirely new species almost who are immortal without the need for capsules. They can flit around the cluster to whatever clone production faciility they code for at the moment of death, which makes being tied to material items inconvenient. This, combined with the economies-of-scale 'on demand' nano-production provides at the infantry item level of production has made it a smart economic decision to produce infantry weapons on demand on the ground as per my previous post.
... this of course all goes out the window when CCP decides to code inventories and **** up my elegant explanation. LOL |
PADDEHATPIGEN
BurgezzE.T.F
42
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Posted - 2013.09.10 14:42:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ty for all the input ;) cant wait to se what CCP does in the future ;)
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