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Matticus Monk
Ordus Trismegistus
413
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 02:12:00 -
[31] - Quote
I agree with the points mentioned, Shotty. And the idea on the lower scan profile making aim assist harder is excellent, this should seriously be looked at.
Additionally, the scout base scan profile/precisions I think should be a bit lower as well..... 40db. Range should be base 15m instead of 10 like the other suits.....
Scouts should be able to effectively perform their role without relying on an active scanner. Afterall, that is sort of the point to using the scout suit.... otherwise, just put the active scanner on a logi and call it good without worrying about the numerous drawbacks of running a scout suit.... |
Bojo The Mighty
Zanzibar Concept
1671
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 05:19:00 -
[32] - Quote
I think that CCP owes us an explanation of how exactly passive scanning works. |
Absoliav
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
61
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 06:14:00 -
[33] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:I think that CCP owes us an explanation of how exactly passive scanning works.
Agreed, they've never really had much to say about the topic, I think that was because scanning wasn't seen as an important feature to the community, but now it's becoming more crucial than ever, hopefully the community's increased interest on the topic will get CCp's attention. |
voidfaction
Void of Faction
67
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 07:31:00 -
[34] - Quote
Can we please balance the suit and keep the knif and shotgun in the weapon balance threads. I use a scout suit. The suit does not say shotgun scout suit. Minmatar is a knife suit yes but that is only one of the 2 . The gallente is a scan stealth suit. Aim assist gets us killed quicker but it helps us just the same. Extra Equipment slot would be nice and sine logo can so easily replace us maybe we should have equal armor and shield as logo suits. Its also funny the suit made best for passive scan range has 1 slot to enhance the precision |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
825
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 09:34:00 -
[35] - Quote
Shotty GoBang wrote:TL/DRAs the Scout's viability gap has grown quite wide with 1.4, an earnest effort to restore balance will require consideration of numerous gameplay factors. To CCPI've made these points brief and have highlighted key elements. I've run Scout exclusively since Chromosome and have read every ounce of feedback offered by my peers. My intent here is to help you help Scouts in a meaningful manner come 1.6. I offer these observations and suggestions in attempt to explain why our performance has declined and how you can help us reverse the pattern. On Cloaking & StealthAn ability to "cloak" will be too little, too late. We're already good at getting into position undetected. Sneaking about with less effort will likely have little impact on our declining performance, especially if cloaking requires that we forgo other (more necessary) equipment. Balancing the Scout will likely not be accomplished by a new piece of equipment.On SpeedWe Scouts sacrifice eHP for slight tactical advantage. Speed is primary. More specifically, relative speed. At present, we are only marginally faster than biotic medium-frames. Slower if we wear plates. We understand that performance limitations prevent a substantial increase to our speed. Balancing the Scout will likely require reduction of medium-suit speed. Hit-and-run doesn't work if we can't outrun non-Scout pursuers. On Aim AssistQuite simply, this is working too well and is to every Scout's detriment. Magnetism should take into account target speed and hitbox size. Either we aren't fast enough, our hitbox is too large, or magnetism is compensating for too great a degree of user error. Balancing the Scout will likely involve dialing back aim-assist. Or rendering the Scout less vulnerable to it (see Thread #2).On Weapon RangeWeapons that devastate Scouts at close and medium range shouldn't be equally capable of insta-kill at long range. Balancing the Scout will likely involve a reduction to damage at range of Scrambler Rifles and Assault Rifles (TAR excluded). As with relative speed, hit-and-run doesn't work if we're always within optimal range of a pursuer. On Insta-KillIn embracing Hard Mode, we accept the fact that we should die when we make even the slightest error or miscalculation. This is how we learn. Balancing the Scout will likely not be accomplished by adding more HP. A slightly more durable Assault-Lite is still Assault-Lite. On Alpha DamageImbalance will exist so long as the targets we flank can survive and counter a perfectly executed sneak attack. Balancing the Scout will likely involve an increase to its Alpha Damage or a "back-stab" multiplier. We're very excited to see how well the Shotgun performs tomorrow, and are equally excited by the current "lunge" discussion on Nova Knives.
Thank you for your time and consideration. Shotty GoBang Troll BoxTo save you guys a little time and effort: - "Your tears taste good." - Malcom Xo (Xero?)
- "May there always be scouts for me kill in a quarter second. " - Meeko Fent
- "Dying 6 times in a row is not bad..." - XxWarlordxX97
- "Grow up ..." - demens grimwulff
- "I'm not feeling the impact of aim assist." - Alldin Kan
- "You guys got by because the hit detection was trash. Get good." - Icy TIG3R
- "Is it really a surprise a suit that was meant for speed dies quickly?" - TEXA5 HiTM4N
- "Shouldn't scouts be sniping?" - Sotapopthegrey
- "Get faster, dance around in a circle, and live longer." - Ignatius Crumwald
I like your post man. Dramatically augmenting the scout's capabilities is what I think will really help it. Cloaking Devices, TACNET Disruption modules, smoke screens, etc.
The aim assist means that people will hit scouts more, but scouts have been needing love for the LONGEST time now. Shotguns are probably going to need a bit of a range buff, with their firing circle slightly widened as well because.... Currently, CQC happens in a flash, so the window of opportunity for the shotgun user is lower than before. Only the absolute best and fastest are still able to get in fast enough.
The aim assist I think is a step in the right direction, we just need to give ourselves sometime to make more assessment. It's only been a couple of days. Think in terms of "TWEAKS" guys. Very little ones. |
Shotty GoBang
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
929
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 17:13:00 -
[36] - Quote
Edit Notes (on Alpha Damage) ...
I must say I am impressed with the drastic improvements made to the shotgun's reliability today. Sneaking up behind a target now greatly favors the shotgun scout's odds of success. This hasn't been the case since 1.0. My concern about Alpha Damage -- as far as Shotgun Scouts go -- may have become moot now that the weapon works.
Once knife mechanics are squared away -- and the deadly Minja can also drop flanked targets reliably -- my point on Alpha Damage will likely no longer apply.
- Shotty GoBang |
ratamaq doc
3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance
49
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:24:00 -
[37] - Quote
DISGRUNTLEDev wrote:It doesn't matter XiBravo, they're precentages. Bonus of 25% and 10%
45 with 10% reduction is 40.5 Add 25% reduction now 30.375
45 with 25% reduction is 33.75 Add 10% reduction now 30.375
I haven't tested profile damping, but with hack speed the first module is applied to base regardless of skill. So it would be 35% off with the skill and the first module. The second module would reduce from the remainder.
I have all the math and video proof in a /r/dust514 thread.
If it is not suppose to work this way, then hacking is broken.
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Grief PK
D3LTA FORC3 Inver Brass
43
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:43:00 -
[38] - Quote
Great post Shotty /agree all around.
I would like to speak a little to the speed. When I think of the 'scout' experience I am looking for in Dust I think of Team Fortress 2.
THAT is a scout that is agile and fast! You can run circle around the people around you and truly speed tank. I can not come close to that degree of agility and speed in Dust. But to be able to speed tank at all (this is pre auto-aim) I had to dedicate every slot in my suit to it. Meaning a Proto Mini with 2 complex kinetic and 3 complex shield extenders. So I am not just speed tanking I am shield tanking as well.
This removes all opportunity for other functionality (like more dps for alpha or scanning mods). Basically for a scout to be viable you must run this fit or you will not get invited to a PC (maybe not even then if enough assaults are available, grenades or utility slot).
I would love for scouts to inherently have speed tank, maybe pick a specific scout race that is the speed tank one. But don't make me spend every slot in my suit just to be able to per chance survive to get an alpha shot off. Make a scout that agile beast that runs around working hard to line up that 'back-stab'. |
DISGRUNTLEDev
Ancient Exiles
120
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:37:00 -
[39] - Quote
ratamaq doc wrote:DISGRUNTLEDev wrote:It doesn't matter XiBravo, they're precentages. Bonus of 25% and 10%
45 with 10% reduction is 40.5 Add 25% reduction now 30.375
45 with 25% reduction is 33.75 Add 10% reduction now 30.375
I haven't tested profile damping, but with hack speed the first module is applied to base regardless of skill. So it would be 35% off with the skill and the first module. The second module would reduce from the remainder. I have all the math and video proof in a /r/dust514 thread. If it is not suppose to work this way, then hacking is broken.
I don't think this is the way it works with dampeners. If that was true, with full skills (two of them) and a basic dampener, it would be a 50% reduction putting a scouts at 22.5. Would be awesome. Would someone be willing to test this tonight? I can set up multiple suits to try it out. I need someone with proto scanners.
Is it the first module equipped, or the top one? Which gets the bonus.
It would be great news if this was the case, it would mean that Minmatars can hide from all scanners if they build for it.
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lrian Locust
DUST University Ivy League
71
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:40:00 -
[40] - Quote
Kodho wrote:One more item. Hit detection on sniper rifle sucks as well. It should not take three hits from a kaalakiota to take out a logi. I agree. I placed 4 fully charged shots on a heavy. Including one headshot. And 2 damage mods and full proficiency. He still survived and shred me to pieces.
Now I fully agree that heavies need to be able to soak up damage, but how many heavies would survive an onslaught like that in any other FPS?
Just now, I planted a few shots on an assault. His bars remained 100%, although I saw the shield flash twice.
Any other sniper has the same?
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Quil Evrything
DUST University Ivy League
44
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:52:00 -
[41] - Quote
DISGRUNTLEDev wrote:
I don't think this is the way it works with dampeners. If that was true, with full skills (two of them) and a basic dampener, it would be a 50% reduction putting a scouts at 22.5. Would be awesome. Would someone be willing to test this tonight(Edit: around 0200-0300 dust time)? I can set up multiple suits to try it out. I need someone with proto scanners.
Is it the first module equipped, or the top one? Which gets the bonus.
It would be great news if this was the case, it would mean that Minmatars can hide from all scanners if they build for it.
It would only be "great news" if they made it apply properly to field-of-vision "scanning" as well, aka weapon built-in scan. The cone of vision that extends 45degrees right and left of your sights, and lights up enemies on your radar... even if you are looking DOWN, rather than at the horizon.
The suck thing is, I could understand if there was the argument of, "your suit hooks into your optical sensor, and IDs everything that you 'see'"
However, you get automatic passive forward scan, out to 100m or so, even for stuff that you CANNOT see. People behind thin walls, etc. IMO, this is OP. It's invincible forward-directed passive scan. It SHOULD be subjected to the same precision rules as normal passive scans, unless there is clear line-of-sight to the enemy.
Now there's "stealth" for you. And CCP wouldnt even have to make a new module for it. Just more consistently enforce game world rules that they already have.
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ratamaq doc
3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance
53
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:06:00 -
[42] - Quote
DISGRUNTLEDev wrote:ratamaq doc wrote:DISGRUNTLEDev wrote:It doesn't matter XiBravo, they're precentages. Bonus of 25% and 10%
45 with 10% reduction is 40.5 Add 25% reduction now 30.375
45 with 25% reduction is 33.75 Add 10% reduction now 30.375
I haven't tested profile damping, but with hack speed the first module is applied to base regardless of skill. So it would be 35% off with the skill and the first module. The second module would reduce from the remainder. I have all the math and video proof in a /r/dust514 thread. If it is not suppose to work this way, then hacking is broken. I don't think this is the way it works with dampeners. If that was true, with full skills (two of them) and a basic dampener, it would be a 50% reduction putting a scouts at 22.5. Would be awesome. Would someone be willing to test this tonight(Edit: around 0200-0300 dust time)? I can set up multiple suits to try it out. I need someone with proto scanners. Is it the first module equipped, or the top one? Which gets the bonus. It would be great news if this was the case, it would mean that Minmatars can hide from all scanners if they build for it.
The higher effect module gets more of the bonus so to speak. So if you equip a complex and a basic, the complex would get 25% off 45db, where the basic would get 86% of 15% off the remainder of the initial 25% off 45db. If it works like system hacking, it would sum the skills and the first module. So 25% + 10% + 25% = 60% off 45db for first module. Bringing down to 18db. Then if basic equipted also would be 86% of 15% (13%) off 18db bringing it down to 15.6db.
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DISGRUNTLEDev
Ancient Exiles
121
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:12:00 -
[43] - Quote
That math gets ridiculous rather quickly then. I was just taking the percentage off the remainder, as I show in previous posts. |
ratamaq doc
3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance
53
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:28:00 -
[44] - Quote
DISGRUNTLEDev wrote:That math gets ridiculous rather quickly then. I was just taking the percentage off the remainder, as I show in previous posts.
The real takeaway should be this. A proto scout can naturally evade adv scanners. 25% off 45 is 33.75 (below 36db adv scanner)
25% + 2% + 10% is all that is needed to evade all but 1 proto scanner.
There is no way to get below 28db with skills alone, so to evade, you must equip a damper.
So unless you are looking to evade the proto focused, there is no benefit to skill past profile dampening 1 if you are a proto scout. Only benefit to skilling up profile dampening would be to evade other suites passive scans. |
Turkevich
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
85
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:48:00 -
[45] - Quote
Shotty GoBang wrote:Balancing the Scout will likely require reduction of medium-suit speed.
How about you just increase the scout suit speed? Why must "balance" always be achieved by nerf'ing something?
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DISGRUNTLEDev
Ancient Exiles
121
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:57:00 -
[46] - Quote
Turkevich wrote:Shotty GoBang wrote:Balancing the Scout will likely require reduction of medium-suit speed. How about you just increase the scout suit speed? Why must "balance" always be achieved by nerf'ing something?
We think there is a ceiling on speed. Thus, for the scouts to seem faster, if there is a cap to speed, other suits need to slow down.
That's all. |
Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire
233
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 23:04:00 -
[47] - Quote
DISGRUNTLEDev wrote:We think there is a ceiling on speed. Thus, for the scouts to seem faster, if there is a cap to speed, other suits need to slow down.
That's all.
Though I wonder if that is still true with the improved framerate and hit detection. |
Niuvo
The Phoenix Federation
443
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 12:44:00 -
[48] - Quote
It's hard to say that the scout suit is a fun playstyle. Not at the moment anyhow. The dickks that are on top are AR users, grenade spamming, med frames users. Game is frustrating as a scout, I feel that our strengths are weak sauce. Waiting for a big change.
Have you guys seen when the AR misses and the shots go way, way past the target into the hills?! That range is game-breaking. A cloak will make me feel safer!!! Anywho, you have my support shotty. |
Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire
234
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 01:34:00 -
[49] - Quote
Something else that would probably indirectly be a big help for scouts (in skirmishes at least) is removal of objective spawning.
If CCP, removed objective spawning, scouts would have a much easier time operating in enemy territory. It would mean enemies would have to either lay a spawn beacon (which we could fairly easily find and remove), use a CRU (which we could hack), or run to the objective (more predictable enemy paths).
How can CCP expect us to be stealthy if the enemy could spawn in at any moment at a random location? |
hgghyujh
Expert Intervention Caldari State
87
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 23:50:00 -
[50] - Quote
I like aeons idea of scouts getting shared tacnet back, it not a direct buff to them while adding a significant roll to them, something the scout has lacked since day one.
That said you are spot on with this post. |
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Beyond Creation
The Pyramid Order The Nova Foundry
18
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Posted - 2013.09.08 00:38:00 -
[51] - Quote
Shotty GoBang wrote:TL/DR As the Scout's viability gap has grown quite wide with 1.4, an earnest effort to restore balance will require consideration of numerous gameplay factors.
To CCP I've made these points brief and have highlighted key elements. I've run Scout exclusively since Chromosome and have read every ounce of feedback offered by my peers. My intent here is to help you help Scouts in a meaningful manner come 1.6. I offer these observations and suggestions in attempt to explain why our performance has declined and how you can help us reverse the pattern.
On Cloaking & Stealth An ability to "cloak" will be too little, too late. We're already good at getting into position undetected. Sneaking about with less effort will likely have little impact on our declining performance, especially if cloaking requires that we forgo other (more necessary) equipment. Balancing the Scout will likely not be accomplished by a new piece of equipment.
[/list]
I agree that cloaking will do nothing for scout suits and you are right on everything you said in my opinion. I think cloaking should be implemented but not on scout suits, but rather scout lavs. As of now they are almost useless and very underpowered compared to every other vehicle. With cloaking, it will give them the effectiveness they need and I think that that's all they need. Not cloaking to make it like invisible because we don't want ******** invisible murder taxis. The cloaking would make it phase out (as cloaking is but still fairly visible) resulting in swarm launchers and av grenades to not be able lock on to it for a certain amount of time. Change the passive turret tracking into cloaking duration. Not a module but only useable with scout lavs. What do you think about this? |
Shotty GoBang
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
988
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 13:26:00 -
[52] - Quote
Beyond Creation wrote: I agree that cloaking will do nothing for scout suits and you are right on everything you said in my opinion. I think cloaking should be implemented but not on scout suits, but rather scout lavs. As of now they are almost useless and very underpowered compared to every other vehicle. With cloaking, it will give them the effectiveness they need and I think that that's all they need. Not cloaking to make it like invisible because we don't want ******** invisible murder taxis. The cloaking would make it phase out (as cloaking is but still fairly visible) resulting in swarm launchers and av grenades to not be able lock on to it for a certain amount of time. Change the passive turret tracking into cloaking duration. Not a module but only useable with scout lavs. What do you think about this?
Thanks for your support. I haven't used LAVs often enough to comment. But I will forever hate the yellow ones :p. |
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