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Shotty GoBang
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
851
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Posted - 2013.09.04 18:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
TL/DR
As the Scout's viability gap has grown quite wide with 1.4, an earnest effort to restore balance will require consideration of numerous gameplay factors.
To CCP
I've made these points brief and highlighted key elements. I've run Scout exclusively since Chromosome and have read every ounce of feedback offered by my peers. My intent is to help you help Scouts in a meaningful manner come 1.6. I offer the following observations and suggestions in attempt to explain why our performance has declined and how you can help us reverse the pattern.
On Cloaking & Stealth
An ability to "cloak" will be too little, too late. We're already good at getting into position undetected. Sneaking about with less effort will likely have little impact on our declining performance, especially if cloaking requires that we forgo other (more necessary) equipment. Balancing the Scout will likely not be accomplished by a new piece of equipment.
On Speed
We Scouts forgo eHP for slight tactical advantage. Speed is primary. More specifically, relative speed. At present, we are only marginally faster than biotic medium-frames. Slower if we wear plates. We understand that performance limitations prevent a substantial increase to our speed. Balancing the Scout will likely require reduction of medium-suit speed. Hit-and-run doesn't work if we can't outrun non-Scout pursuers.
On Aim Assist
Quite simply, this is working too well and is to every Scout's detriment. Magnetism should take into account target speed and hitbox size. Either we aren't fast enough, our hitbox is too large, or magnetism is compensating for too great a degree of user error. Balancing the Scout will likely involve dialing back aim-assist or otherwise rendering the Scout less vulnerable to it.
On Weapon Range
Weapons that devastate Scouts at close and medium range shouldn't be equally capable of insta-kill at long range. Balancing the Scout will likely involve a reduction to damage at range of Scrambler Rifles and Assault Rifles (TAR excluded). As with relative speed, hit-and-run doesn't work if we're always within optimal range of a pursuer.
On Insta-Kill
In embracing Hard Mode, we accept the fact that we should die when we make even the slightest error or miscalculation. This is how we learn. Balancing the Scout will likely not be accomplished by adding more HP. A slightly more durable Assault-Lite is still Assault-Lite.
On Alpha Damage
Imbalance will exist so long as the targets we flank can survive and counter a perfectly executed sneak attack. Balancing the Scout will likely involve an increase to its Alpha Damage or a "back-stab" multiplier. We're very excited to see how the Shotgun will perform better tomorrow, and are equally excited by the current "lunge" discussion on Nova Knives.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
Shotty GoBang |
DISGRUNTLEDev
Ancient Exiles
80
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
I think a great improvement to all scouts, while not preventing other suits from doing the same, would be basing the amount of aim assist against a particular suit based on its scan profile. Being able to be harder to find *and* harder to hit would greatly help the scouts. Other suits could do it, but with the innate bonuses of the scouts giving them a natural buff. |
Jak'Saan
3dge of D4rkness
SoulWing Alliance
47
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
Used to be that Cloak was the answer to all. Now the reality would be as follows:
- scout cloaks
- scout successfully reaches target undetected
- target takes a moment to survey the situation (and possible endures a second shot)
then the following options:
1) target unloads a few magnetic rounds into the air, vaporizing scout.
2) target possibly dies and calls other nearby squad-mates to finish the job
3) - target fails to connect any shots
- scout runs
- target ranges scout in the back
With that said, still can't wait for cloak, please keep it on the upcoming features! (just don't make it the only scout love you give) |
Sinboto Simmons
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
1088
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Posted - 2013.09.04 19:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
DISGRUNTLEDev wrote:I think a great improvement to all scouts, while not preventing other suits from doing the same, would be basing the amount of aim assist against a particular suit based on its scan profile. Being able to be harder to find *and* harder to hit would greatly help the scouts. Other suits could do it, but with the innate bonuses of the scouts giving them a natural buff.
I love you, post more oftan.
To shotty I fully agree to all points you've given cloaking most of all, while it'll make our lives easier that's all it will do, anything and anything we can do with it we can do now it's just gonna make it more viable.
The biggest thing I want for scouts is extra equipment slots so we can do the scouting role more effectively perhaps 3 at proto level, this will alow us to do scoutly things more effectively and give us a major advatage over other suits (besides logi lol) |
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
3972
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
DISGRUNTLEDev wrote:I think a great improvement to all scouts, while not preventing other suits from doing the same, would be basing the amount of aim assist against a particular suit based on its scan profile. Being able to be harder to find *and* harder to hit would greatly help the scouts. Other suits could do it, but with the innate bonuses of the scouts giving them a natural buff.
This can actually work. |
Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
1121
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:15:00 -
[6] - Quote
Solid feedback. I hope CCP is watching and will fix soon. Scout was a secondary role for me but I'm back to logistics suits full time until things are adjusted. |
Spec Ops Cipher
Seraphim Initiative..
497
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:DISGRUNTLEDev wrote:I think a great improvement to all scouts, while not preventing other suits from doing the same, would be basing the amount of aim assist against a particular suit based on its scan profile. Being able to be harder to find *and* harder to hit would greatly help the scouts. Other suits could do it, but with the innate bonuses of the scouts giving them a natural buff. This can actually work.
I like it too, but the scanning profiles are too close together atm.
Scouts are 45
Assault 50
Logi 50(?)
Heavy 65
I personally think scouts should be around 35 |
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
3973
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
Spec Ops Cipher wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:DISGRUNTLEDev wrote:I think a great improvement to all scouts, while not preventing other suits from doing the same, would be basing the amount of aim assist against a particular suit based on its scan profile. Being able to be harder to find *and* harder to hit would greatly help the scouts. Other suits could do it, but with the innate bonuses of the scouts giving them a natural buff. This can actually work. I like it too, but the scanning profiles are too close together atm. Scouts are 45 Assault 50 Logi 50(?) Heavy 65 I personally think scouts should be around 35
I agree. |
DISGRUNTLEDev
Ancient Exiles
84
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
Get your basic light suit up and wear the racial varient. That alone will get scouts to 33.75dB. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
3973
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
DISGRUNTLEDev wrote:Get your basic light suit up and wear the racial varient. That alone will get scouts to 33.75dB.
The base profile could need a little adjustment at least. Maybe about 40 dB instead of 45 dB. |
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DISGRUNTLEDev
Ancient Exiles
84
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:
The base profile could need a little adjustment at least. Maybe about 40 dB instead of 45 dB.
That's not unreasonable. It would mean a Scout with max passive dampening skills (Light Suit V, Profile Dampening V) would have a scan profile of 27dB.
|
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
3974
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
DISGRUNTLEDev wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:
The base profile could need a little adjustment at least. Maybe about 40 dB instead of 45 dB.
That's not unreasonable. It would mean a Scout with max passive dampening skills (Light Suit V, Profile Dampening V) would have a scan profile of 27dB.
Then we're in agreement then. Just remember that the smaller the number, the less effective each progressive level of the skill book is. |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
Top Men.
1382
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:02:00 -
[13] - Quote
DISGRUNTLEDev wrote:I think a great improvement to all scouts, while not preventing other suits from doing the same, would be basing the amount of aim assist against a particular suit based on its scan profile. Being able to be harder to find *and* harder to hit would greatly help the scouts. Other suits could do it, but with the innate bonuses of the scouts giving them a natural buff.
Best new suggestion I've heard since release! |
DISGRUNTLEDev
Ancient Exiles
84
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:03:00 -
[14] - Quote
Having tested Profile dampening thoroughly in Chromosome, I feel quite strongly that the total of a skills % is not
2% + 2% + 2% + 2% + 2% reduction
It's a flat 10%.
So Light Suits V would give 25% reduction.
Profile dampening would give 10% reduction. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
3976
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:12:00 -
[15] - Quote
DISGRUNTLEDev wrote:Having tested Profile dampening thoroughly in Chromosome, I feel quite strongly that the total of a skills % is not
2% + 2% + 2% + 2% + 2% reduction
It's a flat 10%.
So Light Suits V would give 25% reduction.
Profile dampening would give 10% reduction.
You're feelings don't betray you at all. You are absolutely correct about how the bonuses are applied per level. The math used for applying bonuses in Dust is the exact same math use in Eve Online.
If the profile dampening skill book says you get a 2% reduction of profile per level and you have trained up to level 4, then you get an 8% reduction on your base profile. This is the only instant in which the percentages are added rather than multiplied.
Stacking modules, however, are different. Unlike stacking levels of the same skill book, the bonuses for stacked modules are based on the product rather than the sum of the stack.
Let's say a module gives you a 5% bonus and the base is 100. You new number is 105 if you put on that module. If you stack a second module of the same type, then the bonus of that second module multiplies the new base of 105 thus giving you 110.25. |
DISGRUNTLEDev
Ancient Exiles
85
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
>.> not sure if trolling, or just really boosting my ego about being right about the math... |
XiBravo
TeamPlayers
EoN.
210
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:23:00 -
[17] - Quote
Maken wrote:
Let's say a module gives you a 5% bonus and the base is 100. You new number is 105 if you put on that module. If you stack a second module of the same type, then the bonus of that second module multiplies the new base of 105 thus giving you 110.25.
This true os how modules work? Wat is 2 diff level modules what one is applied 1st? |
DISGRUNTLEDev
Ancient Exiles
85
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:26:00 -
[18] - Quote
It doesn't matter XiBravo, they're precentages.
Bonus of 25% and 10%
45 with 10% reduction is 40.5
Add 25% reduction now 30.375
45 with 25% reduction is 33.75
Add 10% reduction now 30.375
|
Spec Ops Cipher
Seraphim Initiative..
498
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:27:00 -
[19] - Quote
DISGRUNTLEDev wrote:Get your basic light suit up and wear the racial varient. That alone will get scouts to 33.75dB.
Aha forgot about that, minnie suits skill that gives +20 melee damage always makes me sad. The knife damage is essential though. Maybe it should be a speed increase while holding knives and knive damage. |
DISGRUNTLEDev
Ancient Exiles
85
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:29:00 -
[20] - Quote
Don't you get both Spec Ops?
Yours is much better than 5 freakin' meters to passive scan range at proto. |
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Quil Evrything
DUST University
Ivy League
35
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:10:00 -
[21] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:
The base profile could need a little adjustment at least. Maybe about 40 dB instead of 45 dB.
Yes!
It's ludicrous that a fully specialized "Scout suit profile" == light suit profile == militia light profile = 45
militia light should be 45, a proper light suit should be less, and a a trueblue scout suit, should be noticably less.
It's absurd that the only diference between a light suit, and a scout suit, is the amount of money each one costs.
That, along with "if you can't passive-scan it, you cant auto-aim it", should work quite nicely |
First Prophet
Unkn0wn Killers
923
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:23:00 -
[22] - Quote
Great post. +1 |
Bojo The Mighty
Zanzibar Concept
1660
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:37:00 -
[23] - Quote
DISGRUNTLEDev wrote:I think a great improvement to all scouts, while not preventing other suits from doing the same, would be basing the amount of aim assist against a particular suit based on its scan profile. Being able to be harder to find *and* harder to hit would greatly help the scouts. Other suits could do it, but with the innate bonuses of the scouts giving them a natural buff.
That is brilliant
The aim assist game has, as I've said in Scout Registry, put more emphasis on stealth mods, especially with Shared Vision nerf. This idea would further that but more potently. I love it. But.....I'm behind on profile/precision mods, I put my share into range.
I don't mind taking the HP mods out of usefulness for scouts, but we need to replace them with something just as potent, and scan modules are the way in my grand onion. |
Kodho
Hidden Suppression
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:52:00 -
[24] - Quote
Oh my where to start. First and foremost, I'm a sniper scout. Most, if not all of the post I have read up to this point has been related to the cqc scout role. I would like to shed some light on the state of the sniper scout after 1.4.
This update really has hurt the sniper scout. My view of the battlefield has been severely restricted. There have been more obstructions put in place to provide cover for the red dots. Since shared vision was eliminated, it makes it more difficult to find targets. I really wish they would allow scouts only to see other teams members vision of tacnet.
New maps are great. However, the new buildings are a snipers nightmare. All of the action take place inside and Snipers can't help hold a position. If I get in a battle (skirmish only) and I see new buildings, I have to leave the battle because I offer nothing. I have already played many battles in 1.4 where I shot less than five times and contributed less than 100 war points.
Scanners: I hate them. Scouts are aleady hampered with one equipment slot. Now I have to make a choice between (a) uplink, (b) nanohive or (c) scanner. Pre 1.4, I ran a shotty with uplinks at beginning of game. Ran back to supply depot changed to Kaalakiota Sniper w/ compact nanohive and moved into my different sniping locations as the battle progressed. The new map and buildings and old maps with new buildings are causing me big problems because I jhave no idea how to strategically plan my mode of attack/support.
I have tried running as a shotgun scout. Bottom line...I suck at cqc. That's why I became a sniper in the first place.
Speed Kills: And it's definitely killing me. I don't think the scout needs an increase in speed as much as other suits need to be slowed down. We need to be able to get from point to point quickly and our stamina needs a buff as well.
I'm very disheartened with the current "state of the sniper scout." However, I will forever be a scout. Nothing else. Never!
Hard Mode to the Core,
Kodho
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DISGRUNTLEDev
Ancient Exiles
90
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:53:00 -
[25] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:my grand onion.
That must be why you collect so many tears! |
Kodho
Hidden Suppression
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:54:00 -
[26] - Quote
One more hit detection on sniper riffles suck as well. It should take the hit from a kaalakiota to take out a logi. |
Shotty GoBang
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
871
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:50:00 -
[27] - Quote
DISGRUNTLEDev wrote:>.> not sure if trolling, or just really boosting my ego about being right about the math...
Your math is 100% correct, Dev. Proven by example here:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1247026#post1247026
|
KING CHECKMATE
TEAM SATISFACTION
806
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:09:00 -
[28] - Quote
DISGRUNTLEDev wrote:I think a great improvement to all scouts, while not preventing other suits from doing the same, would be basing the amount of aim assist against a particular suit based on its scan profile. Being able to be harder to find *and* harder to hit would greatly help the scouts. Other suits could do it, but with the innate bonuses of the scouts giving them a natural buff.
OP is right, but disgrunted provided something that can be used as an inmediate fix.
As it is , i get ripped apart very easily BUT i must admit, my ishi SMG works better than a duvolle AR ...
Im not sure im happy on how easy it is to get kills now that not a single bullet misses.... |
Extraneus Tenebrarum
THE BOSSES
37
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:22:00 -
[29] - Quote
Tried using nova knives today...missed both charged slashes...on a heavy...hacking...not moving.
Aim assist on the assault rifle is too much THEY WILL NOT MISS PERIOD |
crazy space 1
Unkn0wn Killers
1657
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:23:00 -
[30] - Quote
I want to point out 3 complex mods a year ago give 12 sprint speed now it only gives 10.7, that's stupid |
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