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TechMechMeds
Swamp Marines Kleenex Inc.
225
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 04:11:00 -
[31] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:TechMechMeds wrote:Theres loads, the whole eve pilots don't care is just fotm trash talk and besides it what the game is about and building towards so noone really has to do anything regarding that because it will happen anyway. Can't disagree with that, as Dust grows so will EVE's interest in the game.
Wow, to be honest I was expecting some kind of opinion against what I stated purely for the sake of it as it seems to be the forum mentality. +1 |
TechMechMeds
Swamp Marines Kleenex Inc.
225
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 04:14:00 -
[32] - Quote
It seems on the forums logic and reason has to take a back seat for feelings and bias opinion |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
1882
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 04:39:00 -
[33] - Quote
TechMechMeds wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:TechMechMeds wrote:Theres loads, the whole eve pilots don't care is just fotm trash talk and besides it what the game is about and building towards so noone really has to do anything regarding that because it will happen anyway. Can't disagree with that, as Dust grows so will EVE's interest in the game. Wow, to be honest I was expecting some kind of opinion against what I stated purely for the sake of it as it seems to be the forum mentality. +1
Nah man, I'm done trolling. A lot of people on forums post very emotionally and don't like to be told they are wrong. its easy when you're anonymous. It why I don't post on alts either, whats the point? |
Bendtner92
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
957
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 05:10:00 -
[34] - Quote
OP
This is a problem because there's currently too many districts for the current playerbase. In my opinion around 100 districts would be a better number of districts currently, if even that many.
The idea is that you need to have so few districts that the interested corps can't just hold their share and not care about attacking, but instead corps should be holding less than they want and thus will fight for other districts.
So in short, PC needs to be small so that the best corps can fight over the districts.
This also means that PC can't be scaled to including more districts because corps would then just hold their share and not bother with attacking others (which is why PC was a bad idea, Dust corps shouldn't even hold districts since it can't work on a large scale). |
Vargralor
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 05:30:00 -
[35] - Quote
A way to integrate better with EVE and resolve the situation where attacks can be made across any number of jumps is to have clone packs not automatically transferred to the target planet but instead have to be transported there by a ship in EVE. Space superiority would then be important as a defended system would be difficult to attack unless the attackers co-ordinate well. The more jumps the clone packs need to travel, the greater the chances that EVE pilots would attack and destroy them, whether hostiles allied with the opposing corp or random pirates.
The clone pack size should be set to a large enough size to require the use of a dedicated hauler or significantly dedicated combat ship, i.e. several thousand cubic meters. This means that CovOps frigates and Recons couldn't haul them adding more risk to the journey. It also may mean there is a PVP user for Marauders . The ships would need to reach the planet being attacked and offload the clone packs onto a structure similar to how the orbital bombardments beacons work.
The clone packs would have to be transferred to the planet at any point prior to the attack. If there are no EVE pilots willing or able to transfer the clone packs then the Dust corp should have the option of hiring an NPC transport and escort/s at a fee. They would then have to make the journey and potentially (likely unless it is a very short distance) be destroyed.
I could see some fun attacks where an EVE corp brings a fleet of 20 cheap transports through a gatecamp in the hope that the real one can safely make it into warp. |
Akatar Draco
Stonetread
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 05:34:00 -
[36] - Quote
make some sort of pve in this game. something so that people wont use the pve all the time |
Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar
Silver Bullet Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY
206
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 06:40:00 -
[37] - Quote
Vargralor wrote:A way to integrate better with EVE and resolve the situation where attacks can be made across any number of jumps is to have clone packs not automatically transferred to the target planet but instead have to be transported there by a ship in EVE. Space superiority would then be important as a defended system would be difficult to attack unless the attackers co-ordinate well. The more jumps the clone packs need to travel, the greater the chances that EVE pilots would attack and destroy them, whether hostiles allied with the opposing corp or random pirates. The clone pack size should be set to a large enough size to require the use of a dedicated hauler or significantly dedicated combat ship, i.e. several thousand cubic meters. This means that CovOps frigates and Recons couldn't haul them adding more risk to the journey. It also may mean there is a PVP user for Marauders . The ships would need to reach the planet being attacked and offload the clone packs onto a structure similar to how the orbital bombardments beacons work. The clone packs would have to be transferred to the planet at any point prior to the attack. If there are no EVE pilots willing or able to transfer the clone packs then the Dust corp should have the option of hiring an NPC transport and escort/s at a fee. They would then have to make the journey and potentially (likely unless it is a very short distance) be destroyed. I could see some fun attacks where an EVE corp brings a fleet of 20 cheap transports through a gatecamp in the hope that the real one can safely make it into warp.
this is genius, it would totally add a new level of dept tho the eve/dust connection, but i still think more regions is the way to go maby along with shorter attack timers also, you already said it urself that u guys own more districts than u can maintain but i doubt ther is no one willing to try and take them off ur hands either, plenty of peope want to do pc and ther simple arnt enough districts to go around |
Orber Gen
Academy Inferno CRONOS.
97
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 06:48:00 -
[38] - Quote
Poor laggggging EoN TeamPlayers Laggggggs don't help u anymore? |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
1894
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 17:48:00 -
[39] - Quote
Okay so I've thought about this a little and I think I've come up with the correct way to implement a system like this.
So you leave the current clone pack and clone deployment system in place just like it is.
Now add in a system where alliances can select if they are:
Red - Hostile Yellow - Neutral Blue - Friendly
to other alliances.
Now, change it where you can no longer deploy clones or clone packs through a territory that is Red. Or maybe where there is a % chance of failure to jump through a red system.
It seems like it would make sense to me, and when/if null sec releases it will be pretty much like this, where hostile alliances aren't gonna let you send freighters packed with clones through hostile space.
With a mechanic like this, we could also bring clone packs back up to 150 so new players get on even ground when they attack a district, instead of being so disadvantaged like they are now at 120. (if you don't believe 120 clones is a disadvantage, trust me... I've been in so many clone pack battles where we clone them its kind of sad to see how bad it actually is).
I'm not looking for a mechanic that allows my corp or alliance to control all of MH, but I would like to see a mechanic that gives alliances the incentive to want to continue to expand their boundaries, or at the very least have plans in place to protect the battles on their borders.
I also think this would cause there to be MORE battles in PC as opposed to less (as everyone always has an incentive to battle, and you focus the battles to the boundaries between red alliances), and it would give people the incentive to form political alliances in an effort to maintain certain regions of space.
I do agree this kind of mechanic cannot go into place on the current iteration of PCC, and this suggestion has no bearing on the current state of PC as by the time we have a new iteration of PC the board will have changed and the FEC will only be a memory.
Combine this with removing districts as battle points and changing it to battle over planets, as well as opening many more planets, and reworking the way income is generated by planets could give us a game mode that would be worth playing for many more people. |
TITANIC Xangore
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
296
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 18:12:00 -
[40] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:I'm not complaining about anything. But seriously, what's the point of taking more land after you've taken 5-10 districts? Not many corps have enough skilled players to hold that many timers as it is.
I'm not saying EoN should just be able to hold 80% of MH for the lulz, and i'm sure my corp and alliance tag will invite a massive amount of troll posts to this simply because people are mad. But seriously... whats the point?
People aren't mad. we just want to have fun playing in all the game modes. EoN complaining in multiple threads now about how hard it is to defend all you have taken, boohoo. You can't hold what you wanted, you shouldn't have been so greedy. The war hasn't even been happening for a full week and already you guys are taking to the forums and locking up districts with a fake corp so they can't be attacked. Get more players if you can't handle it all. Or face the consequences of your actions. FEC is coming, hide.
Funny, cause all he cares about is getting XXX amount for a "paycheck" haha. To bad, oh I won't get paid isk to play if we lose all our districts, or I will have to get less and less if we have more people". |
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Draco Cerberus
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
261
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 18:20:00 -
[41] - Quote
So now you get to walk a mile in my shoes, how do they fit? |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
1895
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 18:20:00 -
[42] - Quote
TITANIC Xangore wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:I'm not complaining about anything. But seriously, what's the point of taking more land after you've taken 5-10 districts? Not many corps have enough skilled players to hold that many timers as it is.
I'm not saying EoN should just be able to hold 80% of MH for the lulz, and i'm sure my corp and alliance tag will invite a massive amount of troll posts to this simply because people are mad. But seriously... whats the point? People aren't mad. we just want to have fun playing in all the game modes. EoN complaining in multiple threads now about how hard it is to defend all you have taken, boohoo. You can't hold what you wanted, you shouldn't have been so greedy. The war hasn't even been happening for a full week and already you guys are taking to the forums and locking up districts with a fake corp so they can't be attacked. Get more players if you can't handle it all. Or face the consequences of your actions. FEC is coming, hide. Funny, cause all he cares about is getting XXX amount for a "paycheck" haha. To bad, oh I won't get paid isk to play if we lose all our districts, or I will have to get less and less if we have more people".
You obviously haven't read a word in this thread. I don't give a **** about the FEC or about TP holding more districts than it could/should reasonably hold and if I posted this on an alt you wouldn't haven't even posted this.
Lets get over the venom directed at my corp tag for two seconds and actually think about what the purpose of this game mode is supposed to be.
Seriously, what is subd gonna do once they've taken a couple districts off EoN are they gonna try to take any more? You'll eventually reach a point where you will take only as many districts as you can hold and then what? You just defend them and farmville it up right? That's why people get so burned out on PC... you reach a point where you don't want more, and you don't want to take more... so the whole process just seems futile.
I wanna talk about the future of PC, not the present. |
Draco Cerberus
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
261
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 18:32:00 -
[43] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:TechMechMeds wrote:With all due respect mh is worthless space so it makes sense they opened it as a kind of pc beta, of course to filth dwellers it's worth some isk but on the whole mh is worthless. Worthless to eve players though right? It doesn't have to be worthless to dust players though, you can call equestria for all it matters. To dust players PC is just PC. The systems are just dots on a big board that's part of another game. Sure they will eventually open null sec and land grabs on sovs but thats 3-4 years away realistically. If Dust players want support for attacks and defense of their districts it should mean something to Eve players as well. There is absolutely no reason what-so-ever Eve side to defend the districts...NONE. How many players in these forums actually have Eve side relations that use the bonuses granted by having a district or 10 or a whole planet? I suspect that you will find very few if any that take advantage of POS productivity bonuses or even have a POS anywhere near the Molden Heath region. Why? Because it is Low Sec where PC occurs and because having a POS in Null Sec where it can have some value returns such as manufacturing or moon mining to pay for the cost of fueling it and protecting it, is worthwhile whereas a Low Isk return investment of a POS in Low Sec will be camped or killed by the next POS Bash fleet that comes through the system because it is there. If there is someone manufacturing something it will be destroyed or stolen and why would anyone want to do BPO research in a POS in a highly contested area such as the Molden Heath region is right now with only PC battles to fuel the fight?
Value for Eve players needs to be provided, more areas for PC need to be provided and maybe some new mechanics as to how we can work with the EVE players, we are citizens of New Eden after all. |
Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION
1037
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 18:38:00 -
[44] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:So you expect CCP to build a game mode that encourages very small elite level players to dominate a game mode because you guys don't want to split pay checks?
There are a lot of things wrong with PC, but I hope CCP leans toward encouraging corporations to expand by bringing in new players to eventually help them take more territory.
I've agreed with your posts quite a bit in the past, but man this thread is... I really don't know what to call it.
You shouldn't be able to own the amount of land that you own. Logistically it isn't possible. It's taken some time but the players in this game have finally banded together to prove this point.
The game mode is finally working as intended. Now instead of just accepting this you guys are using an actual broken mechanic of PC to attempt to hold your bloated share of MH. I think you're getting the wrong idea behind this post. I'm not saying anything about a small group of elite players owning MH and trying to get a mechanic to push for that. Honestly, once EoN has reduced it district number (through whatever means) what do you think will actually happen? PC currently tends itself towards farmville. Any corp will only ever be able to hold so many districts at which point its futile to even try to take more. Even with a frontline mechanics you would easily be looking at 10-15 battles per night for each corp if they start pushing too far, but alliances can keep pushing for more control. By focusing attacks on a frontline, there would end up being more attacks each night as alliances vie for control of more space. This has little to do with being unwilling to split paychecks. Why would someone, as a leader, want to have to deal with more logistical headaches trying to manage more people for the same reward either way? The game itself lends to a situation where you don't want more land than you can reasonably defend simultaneously in a single night. I guess what it comes down to is, I'm not suggesting these changes because of any sort of selfish desire to maintain control over MH. tbh I can care less what happens to PC, i've moved on to FF14 anyways. These are just my parting words about a flaw that I see in the way the system incentivizes people to participate in PC (which it doesn't do very well considering how few people actually give two ***** about it). I just look at the future of EoN and think... whats next? What could possibly be next? The logical conclusion of this FEC war is that EoN will be reduced to a number of districts that it can defend... and then.. what? Where would be the drive to want to battle in PC when you're essentially fighting to take districts you can't afford to defend? All you can do at that point is battle for the sake of battling, but you're no longer battling to own land, you're just doing it to do it. That's fine if that's the culture that CCP wants to foster, but that system would be better served by removing PC altogether and reimplementing the corp battle system.
Fair enough, and I get your jist. But I don't think even in Eve with a much bigger sandbox anyone thinks or expects to control it all. i HATE when people bring Eve up when talking about this game, but I think it's a good example here.
If someone went through all the trouble of gaining a LOT of sov in Eve because they have a ton of skill, it doesn't guarantee that they'd be able to defend it all. They would probably be burnt out from it.
With people having the appropriate amount of land that they can defend (enough teams capable of defending multiple timers) it would lead to a larger number of corps being involved.
The issue we have now is that in addition to the success Eon has had, you had a LOT of bandwagon jumpers that flocked there. Now those guys may not be participating in PC battles for Eon corps, but they most certainly are not involved in some other corporation that is striving to make their mark.
The sandbox needs some variety. And perhaps there needs to be some mercy for corps that you know can't compete with you. Imagine if Mike Tyson just sized up every guy he ever came in contact with.
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TITANIC Xangore
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
299
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 18:46:00 -
[45] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:TITANIC Xangore wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:I'm not complaining about anything. But seriously, what's the point of taking more land after you've taken 5-10 districts? Not many corps have enough skilled players to hold that many timers as it is.
I'm not saying EoN should just be able to hold 80% of MH for the lulz, and i'm sure my corp and alliance tag will invite a massive amount of troll posts to this simply because people are mad. But seriously... whats the point? People aren't mad. we just want to have fun playing in all the game modes. EoN complaining in multiple threads now about how hard it is to defend all you have taken, boohoo. You can't hold what you wanted, you shouldn't have been so greedy. The war hasn't even been happening for a full week and already you guys are taking to the forums and locking up districts with a fake corp so they can't be attacked. Get more players if you can't handle it all. Or face the consequences of your actions. FEC is coming, hide. Funny, cause all he cares about is getting XXX amount for a "paycheck" haha. To bad, oh I won't get paid isk to play if we lose all our districts, or I will have to get less and less if we have more people". You obviously haven't read a word in this thread. I don't give a **** about the FEC or about TP holding more districts than it could/should reasonably hold and if I posted this on an alt you wouldn't haven't even posted this. Lets get over the venom directed at my corp tag for two seconds and actually think about what the purpose of this game mode is supposed to be. Seriously, what is subd gonna do once they've taken a couple districts off EoN are they gonna try to take any more? You'll eventually reach a point where you will take only as many districts as you can hold and then what? You just defend them and farmville it up right? That's why people get so burned out on PC... you reach a point where you don't want more, and you don't want to take more... so the whole process just seems futile. I wanna talk about the future of PC, not the present.
I've read every word. Most of yours seem to involve you crying over the fact thta you are getting paid X amount (50m isk per week from what I understand it) and if you bring more players, or lose more districts, you won't be getting paid. if you want to talk about the future of PC, then leave your corp at home when you discuss things.
As far as what SubD will do when we take more land, it is exactly what we are doing. we take it, it gets attacked, we lose it, we go back in and fight again. we pull together teams, only bringing in outsiders when the timers for the attack are happening when we don't have a full team available.
we are one of those corps that do everything we can to field a full team of our own corp. We started this war, and we are not backing down from it.
If we take land, great, if we have gud fights, great. We are TEST. if we lose, we lose, and we have fun playing. If we win, we win, and have fun playing.
The land is less important then the fights we have. we went months with no land, and no real way to fund corp, except through donations, but we have put up dozens of fights, and spent millions of isk, and lost hundreds of clones. But we enjoyed it. And we will keep doing it until we are broke, Why? Cause we are to stupid to stop!
the future of Pc isn't battle front's, it isn't holding a few key districts or planets in order to keep dozens in the back. This is space. I can literally fly around any potential blockade you have to get to a planet/district, behind any front line. Your thinking to earthly, to world war style play. Think bigger. think space. think movement in all directions. We are the boots on the ground, but it doesn't stop the space flights from moving.
the future of Pc is more land, more corps, more alliances. it's holding planets, and risking each district to attack. it's having more players who want more content that actually means something. An ambush is worthless. there are no objectives. An Domination is basic, one to defend, a skirmish is practice with baby squads, and lone wolfs. FW is a small tie with eve, and normally has some better teams. But PC, of PC, this is a skirmish match that pits the best i can field against your best. It is something that means my corp can make more isk, that I can be reimbursed for my part, that I can have something that affects things outside my little bubble.
This is what we are fighting for. PC was broken for a while. We didn't want to keep our district before. Most didn't. thnis is how TP came to be who they are. They took advantage of a broken system, and profited. Good for you. That's what this gmae is about. Now that PC is mostly fixed, others want back what they once had, or what they want to have. TP can't handle it with 30 or 45 members. tough. Fight for what you have, or decide it's time to get out. |
karonzon
D3LTA FORC3 Inver Brass
13
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 19:05:00 -
[46] - Quote
ppl are unhappy when the part of the game they like is broken like heavies and the hmg MFrs realy it does the lest amount of damage that is laughable and stupid or mass drivers being able to jump all over and still kill ppl and not need skill no need to beable to aim just get close enuogh to splash kill so tell me what is more immportant the ablility to have correct weapon stats or if your jumping with a mass driver and shoot it and dont get thrown to the ground by the kick or even the right amount of kick when firing it or even in truth there should be no timers for the pc battles you go there and take it not sit there and say oh we cant fight them yet there not ready fucn really look at the game programmers and let them know make real rules and laws for the game or just stop ******* the game up and go hang yourself |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
1895
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 20:09:00 -
[47] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:Fair enough, and I get your jist. But I don't think even in Eve with a much bigger sandbox anyone thinks or expects to control it all. i HATE when people bring Eve up when talking about this game, but I think it's a good example here.
If someone went through all the trouble of gaining a LOT of sov in Eve because they have a ton of skill, it doesn't guarantee that they'd be able to defend it all. They would probably be burnt out from it.
With people having the appropriate amount of land that they can defend (enough teams capable of defending multiple timers) it would lead to a larger number of corps being involved.
The issue we have now is that in addition to the success Eon has had, you had a LOT of bandwagon jumpers that flocked there. Now those guys may not be participating in PC battles for Eon corps, but they most certainly are not involved in some other corporation that is striving to make their mark.
The sandbox needs some variety. And perhaps there needs to be some mercy for corps that you know can't compete with you. Imagine if Mike Tyson just sized up every guy he ever came in contact with.
Sure I don't disagree at all. A small number of elite players should not own MH. Like I said, this suggestion has no bearing on what is currently happening in MH. I think we all can very clearly see the eventual outcome of this 'FEC War' of which i'm not trying to protect any interests with this thread.
However... PC just seems counter productive at the moment. Like you say, you can only take as much land you can reasonably hold... but then you just... stop. I don't disagree and more corps should be entering PC, but we had a lot of corps on day 1 of PC, and they all got driven out... most of them 'quit PC' or 'retired from PC' because they saw no reason to hold land.
In a perfect scenario, PC would eventually even out to a bunch of corps owning a little bit of land and using their clones to attack other districts. But they can't reasonable hold any more land than they've got.
So you end up with one of two scenarios,
1. There is so little land to be had in PC, that skilled players drive out unskilled players and then unskilled players just leave PC. 2. There is enough land, that all of the big name corps take a small chunk of the pie and then it just becomes a glorified corp battle finder, and we would be better served by removing PC and bringing back a revamped corp battle finder.
Ideally we want to make a game mode where people always want more, they always want to keep playing. Like the SP system for example, you always want more to get that next thing.
So you want to create a system where people want more land always, and then they get to a point where they can only hold so much, and as their chunk of land gets bigger their borders get bigger. They need to make alliances with their neighbors if they can, and then recruit more people as their frontline grows and more corps start pushing back.
As it stands, you can't protect a district, so you can only take as many districts as you can players that defend them. It sounds very similar what I just said but its quite different. As the number of districts you can hold grows linearly with the number of players you have, and so there is little incentive to grow your corp very large. You will achieve the same results by having a small corp hold a small amount of land, but without the logistical headache of having more players.
I've been in enough MMO style games to know that bigger doesn't often mean better, and generally the effort in managing a clan/corp/guild grows faster than the number of players you have. It probably works well in eve due to the open style of combat in that game, it changes a lot when you're in a lobby shooter and more players is not generally better. I think the recent woes about pub matchmaking is enough to prove that. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
1895
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 20:14:00 -
[48] - Quote
TITANIC Xangore wrote:This is what we are fighting for. PC was broken for a while. We didn't want to keep our district before. Most didn't. thnis is how TP came to be who they are. They took advantage of a broken system, and profited. Good for you. That's what this gmae is about. Now that PC is mostly fixed, others want back what they once had, or what they want to have. TP can't handle it with 30 or 45 members. tough. Fight for what you have, or decide it's time to get out.
That sounds good and all, but then wouldn't that objective be better served by a corp battle system that rewards active battling and removing PC (and its passive income) altogether?
I don't really care about my paychecks, honestly, 90% of the money I made in PC came from end of match payouts, I'm not trying to protect my own interests here at all. Any sort of paychecks I received outside of battle pretty much just broke even all of the money I donated when we all started in PC. |
IgniteableAura
Pro Hic Immortalis
103
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 20:36:00 -
[49] - Quote
I totally agree with most of your points. This is what allowed EON to be such a great stakeholder to start.
If they had to attack front lines first they would have probably gotten held up. Currently there is no real chock points in MH anyway. Perhaps once they expand on PC it can be a valid tactic, but until then its all pretty pointless. PC needs to have some purpose. Which is what I am looking forward to on FW. I think it will be this games saving grace.
Something I said when they first announced the changes last month
IgniteableAura wrote:I think you should make clone packs for corps already in PC cost 80mil still and Corps not in PC 10-20 mil. You may worry about people abusing that system by making corps outside of PC just to hit a planet, but perhaps create a timer of a week for corps to enter PC.
Like you said, the barrier for large alliances to pay the 80 mil is not isk. So make them pay to have the "attack anywhere" advantage.
Also attrition distance needs to be lessened a little bit. Like to echo the other guy that said there is no point to the chokes on the map if you can hit within 4 jumps at 100%. Example, those in egbinger can hit audesder at no penalty. So the fortification of your front lines is pointless.
I feel you need to have high attrition to start and higher percentages as you move out. So 80% once you hit outside current system then go 70%, 2nd jump, 65%, 3rd jump and 65%, 65% 65% 60% 60% etc. Allow people to still hit really far out, but at a reasonable clone cost, but still allow the ability to fortify your front lines.
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ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
1895
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 20:45:00 -
[50] - Quote
IgniteableAura wrote:I totally agree with most of your points. This is what allowed EON to be such a great stakeholder to start. If they had to attack front lines first they would have probably gotten held up. Currently there is no real chock points in MH anyway. Perhaps once they expand on PC it can be a valid tactic, but until then its all pretty pointless. PC needs to have some purpose. Which is what I am looking forward to on FW. I think it will be this games saving grace. Something I said when they first announced the changes last month IgniteableAura wrote:I think you should make clone packs for corps already in PC cost 80mil still and Corps not in PC 10-20 mil. You may worry about people abusing that system by making corps outside of PC just to hit a planet, but perhaps create a timer of a week for corps to enter PC.
Like you said, the barrier for large alliances to pay the 80 mil is not isk. So make them pay to have the "attack anywhere" advantage.
Also attrition distance needs to be lessened a little bit. Like to echo the other guy that said there is no point to the chokes on the map if you can hit within 4 jumps at 100%. Example, those in egbinger can hit audesder at no penalty. So the fortification of your front lines is pointless.
I feel you need to have high attrition to start and higher percentages as you move out. So 80% once you hit outside current system then go 70%, 2nd jump, 65%, 3rd jump and 65%, 65% 65% 60% 60% etc. Allow people to still hit really far out, but at a reasonable clone cost, but still allow the ability to fortify your front lines.
Yeah I agree with you, EoN only took land no one else wanted, and they didn't want it cause it almost seems a futile attempt to try and hold it. I think a frontline mechanic would really help people with wanting to defend their land if they knew they couldn't just have every district sniped. I do agree this has to come with significant changes to PC, like changing it from district ownership to planet ownership (to make PC larger, so it takes more jumps to hit more districts) and to open up many many more planets, while diluting the impact each planet has on income generation.
Thanks for the link to that post, he's got a lot of good points too. |
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Piercing Serenity
PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies
417
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 21:21:00 -
[51] - Quote
I agree with Zdub.
The end game of PC should not be "Hold the most land". Holding land needs to be a means to some end, so that the act of acquiring land is always attractive. Right now, all you get is a headache. Sure, you can hate on EoN because they are relevant right now, but "EoN" can also be the title for any group that sucks up a bunch of land. And as the system currently stands, they will be in the same boat - holding more land will be a turn off to them.
Dust players either need some bonus to DUST players when acquiring districts or have a bonus they get for holding districts for a certain amount of time. These bonuses need to be so attractive that not only do you want them, but you don't want anyone else to have them.
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Killar-12
The Corporate Raiders
718
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 00:44:00 -
[52] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:So i'm sure by now most people have heard about the great 'FEC' Coalition attacking EoN to take back what is essentially an obscene majority share of PC. It's quite clear that FEC was going to 'win' this war the moment they launched the first clone pack, why? Well its quite simple really, there is literally no way for a corp like TeamPlayers to sustain attacks on 70+ districts indefinitely, however, I am extremely proud of TeamPlayers, and the people who have temporarily joined the corp to help us hold the districts, for the severals day we were able to hold as much as 45 attacks per day, sometimes with 6 overlapping timers at once. It was an incredible experience, and one I wish to never have again. So why am I making this post now?
Disclaimer: I'm not going to comment at all about the current state of this war as it has no bearing on my feedback here.
Well the fact of the matter is, what is the point of PC? It is supposed to be a mechanic that gets awesome corp v corp matches where you fight over something that matters. However, the game mode is completely pointless... it is a self defeating game mode.
The more land I grab, the more land i have to simultaneously defend... what does this do? Well it creates a scenario where there is a maximum amount of districts my corp will ever be able to hold, and so once I reach that point why would I want more districts? The game mode itselfs should always leave a corp wanting more districts, wanting more income (and whatever new goodies we get from holding land down the road) and always wanting to attack to try and gain more districts.
But no one wants to try and grab more land after they have a certain number of districts, you simply can't... its a self defeating game mode, the more land my corp has, the less I want to have more of it. This is counter productive to the spirit of the game mode itself, and its very likely a huge reason why people say that PC has failed to hit the mark it was supposed to.
What PC needs in order to get people excited about holding land is some sort of frontline mechanic. Where alliances are constantly pushing front lines night after night to try and expand their territory and take more land. In this way, taking more land doesn't necessarily leave you susceptible to more attacks, you encourage more fights, more attacks, constant metagaming, and a dynamic PC land grab experience.
I'm curious TTG, despite the poor bonuses, do you really think anyone would ever care to put a POS on a planet in MH? It would be almost pointless considering these planets have a habit of switching owners constantly, and its almost impossible to hold onto land unless you are a very skilled corp. Nothing is safe in MH, there is no stability.
While I think we need large changes in the way PC infrastructure works, i'm not going to bother highlighting them as the suggestions are irrelevant in large part. However, we need one very specific change to the way PC works.
Change clone survival on transfer to 100% for 1 jump and 0% for 2 jumps. We need a way to protect districts, otherwise we will never care to push forward and take more, as we are too susceptible to losing those districts. Its self defeating and it causes most players to be completely uninterested in taking more land, as they struggle to hold the districts they currently own. This also makes alliances more important, as you can have someone actually watching your back, instead of having corp X attack you from 6 jumps away and completely bypass and territory you currently own.
This isn't a complete post by any means, and I don't know how to handle clone packs and new players entering PC, but without a way to protect your districts, it is literally pointless to try and take more. You will find a limit to the number of districts your corp can reliably defend and then have no desire to take more after that. This kind of culture is why PC makes no sense, and why no one wants to play.
What happens in the end? Most corps give up, and then one corp comes in and snatches the land no one else wants.
What do you guys really think will happen once EoN gives up on PC? There will just be a new 'EoN' in town who stomps everyone out of existence and takes all of the land cause no one can hold up to the instability of this game mode.
TL;DR - PC is a self defeating game mode, the more land you have the less you want more land. We need a way for people to get excited about flipping districts and flipping planets, and right now there is very little incentive to. We need some sort of frontline mechanic so we can comfortably continue to push forward and have more fights as a result. PC needs to be a little more like PS2.
I may be completely wrong, and i'm sure there will be plenty of people who disagree. This is just my thoughts on PC from someone who has probably played over 100-150 matches against all sorts of corps. Organized corp matches where you play only for the W and everyone gives it their all is the most fun i've ever had in an FPS. PC has the potential to be amazing, but no one wants to play in it, the more invested you are in PC, less invested you want to become and its fundamentally wrong to the way we should want to play it. Okay a quick question... How would your ideal system work in comparison to the current system? I think you're a smart guy but a detailed plan would do wonders... |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
1910
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 00:57:00 -
[53] - Quote
Killar-12 wrote:Okay a quick question... How would your ideal system work in comparison to the current system? I think you're a smart guy but a detailed plan would do wonders...
Yeah I don't have all the answers by any means. I'm just trying to highlight that I think the lack of a frontline mechanic is really holding PC back, and like Piercing Serenity said... PC should just be a means to an end, you should always want to play more PC and always want more land (even if you can't quite get it!). Right now its more of a glorified corp battle matchmaking system, which could be better done if we had a real corp battle matchmaking system lol.
There are many other changes that need to be made as well though, no doubt. I'm sure TTG has some fairly detailed documents on how they plan to implement their next iteration of PC. I don't have the time or energy to construct some sort of detailed plan that probably won't make a difference anyways. I think there has been some decent discussion amidst all of the trolling and TTG can do with it what they if they end up reading this thread. |
Killar-12
The Corporate Raiders
718
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 01:12:00 -
[54] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Killar-12 wrote:Okay a quick question... How would your ideal system work in comparison to the current system? I think you're a smart guy but a detailed plan would do wonders... Yeah I don't have all the answers by any means. I'm just trying to highlight that I think the lack of a frontline mechanic is really holding PC back, and like Piercing Serenity said... PC should just be a means to an end, you should always want to play more PC and always want more land (even if you can't quite get it!). Right now its more of a glorified corp battle matchmaking system, which could be better done if we had a real corp battle matchmaking system lol. There are many other changes that need to be made as well though, no doubt. I'm sure TTG has some fairly detailed documents on how they plan to implement their next iteration of PC. I don't have the time or energy to construct some sort of detailed plan that probably won't make a difference anyways. I think there has been some decent discussion amidst all of the trolling and TTG can do with it what they if they end up reading this thread. Just a few more questions...
I'd assume returning the old corp battles would be a step in the right direction.
but frontline mechanics have issues(lack of a lasting effect,continual defense,etc) but also advantages(don't bite off more than you can chew,allows for fluid and realistic combat,etc) |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
1915
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 03:32:00 -
[55] - Quote
Killar-12 wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Killar-12 wrote:Okay a quick question... How would your ideal system work in comparison to the current system? I think you're a smart guy but a detailed plan would do wonders... Yeah I don't have all the answers by any means. I'm just trying to highlight that I think the lack of a frontline mechanic is really holding PC back, and like Piercing Serenity said... PC should just be a means to an end, you should always want to play more PC and always want more land (even if you can't quite get it!). Right now its more of a glorified corp battle matchmaking system, which could be better done if we had a real corp battle matchmaking system lol. There are many other changes that need to be made as well though, no doubt. I'm sure TTG has some fairly detailed documents on how they plan to implement their next iteration of PC. I don't have the time or energy to construct some sort of detailed plan that probably won't make a difference anyways. I think there has been some decent discussion amidst all of the trolling and TTG can do with it what they if they end up reading this thread. Just a few more questions... I'd assume returning the old corp battles would be a step in the right direction. but frontline mechanics have issues(lack of a lasting effect,continual defense,etc) but also advantages(don't bite off more than you can chew,allows for fluid and realistic combat,etc)
Was there a question in there? |
Beeeees
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
130
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 07:18:00 -
[56] - Quote
That can be described as "having bitten of more than you can chew".
Add pissing off everyone but your own hugbox adds on top of that.
By taking over the vast majority of PC as an alliance and then being dicks about it you basically asked for a whoopin.
A manpower mechanic is intrinsic to the game, you can only hold as many districts as your manpower allows. And that is good. You may hold only a handful of districts with only a handful of people, if you want more you need more manpower. Mo money mo trouble. |
Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION
107
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 08:07:00 -
[57] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:anyways... look it doesn't really matter. I knew I would receive a lot of hostility due to my alliance tag, and I don't really care. I'm not necessarily saying I have all of the answers here, but its well acknowledged that PC is in a bit of a broken state atm.
All I can hope is that TTG reads this post gets some ideas on how to improve the value of holding territory. Any sort of hostility or discussion in this thread is probably meaningless anyways.
I enjoyed my time playing in PC, and I am still quite interested to see the future of MH and PC in general. However I can't see PC being any more than good players 'stealing' clones from other corps as a way to make money (by attacking, winning, and then leaving the district as they can't defend more than xx timers).
I think PC will always remain fairly stagnant insolong as the mechanics in this game favor corps not wanting to take additional districts.
To some degree I could agree with you point of view. Some sort of frontier to battle (similar than it is in risk) would be great, but there must be a way to beat Corps thats manage to grab enough land to never run out of clones or isk. Just imagine you could restock your frontiers with clones where as the attackers only can attack with 120 clones per attack thats stupid and that way it is nearly impossible to break such "fortifications" and that would hurt the game more than the current crappy implemnatation.
So yes there need be the need to act more tactical and strategical but there needs to be a "backdoor" so that there is always a way to beat corps in good positions.
BTW I really don't care about your alliance tag |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
1921
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 15:24:00 -
[58] - Quote
Korvin Lomont wrote:To some degree I could agree with you point of view. Some sort of frontier to battle (similar than it is in risk) would be great, but there must be a way to beat Corps thats manage to grab enough land to never run out of clones or isk. Just imagine you could restock your frontiers with clones where as the attackers only can attack with 120 clones per attack thats stupid and that way it is nearly impossible to break such "fortifications" and that would hurt the game more than the current crappy implementation. So yes there need be the need to act more tactical and strategical but there needs to be a "backdoor" so that there is always a way to beat corps in good positions. BTW I really don't care about your alliance tag
1st: I agree, 120 clone packs gotta go... they give a very large disadvantage to the attacker and overall just makes a bad barrier to entering PC.
Otherwise: I agree with you to an extent. A mechanic like this would force you rely on your alliance a lot more. You still could take so much land before your borders are starting to infringe on someone else who will be red to you. Through alliances you can make sure you have your back covered while you fight over your planets. Allied corps can also back stab you if you aren't careful
However is here a mechanic I think would very well with a frontline based PC:
Planets no longer have district ownership, and we implement a few new PIs:
Capital District (max one available per planet): Determines planet ownership Orbital Elevator: Controls the ability to send and receive clones from other planets Defense Relay: Protect capital district, capital district is not available if a relay is still active.
Modify: Surface Research Lab: Produces 2,000,000 ISK per day Clone Production Facility: Produces 80 clones per day Clone Storage Facility: Holds 450 clones (same)
Planetary districts will now act more like 'modules' for a planet. In this way you can customize how a planet to what you want to do, and in many cases well protected districts may want to switch over to having as many research labs as possible, while contested districts may want more defense relays.
So now lets change it to where planets have a 2 hour reinforcement window and attackers can choose within the nearest 15m increment when they want to attack and which district they want to attack. If they lose the attack, nothing happens, if they win the attack, that district goes offline for repairs.
Orbital Elevators will take 5 days for repairs with a 7 day reinforcement timer (invulnerability timer) Defense Relays will take 3 days for repairs with no reinforcement timer, only one relay can be repaired at a time. Clone Facilities and Research Labs will take 3 days for repairs with a 5 day reinforcement timer
Finally, you leave the system in place where defenders get a 1 hour window after a successful defense to move clones around if they want to.
Changing PI should be reduced to 20m from 100m, and take 3 days, with a 3 day lock timer.
So when you attack a planet, you will have to make tactical decisions on how you want to approach it.
1. You knock out the elevator so they can't funnel in more clones? 2. Take out clone facilities so you can attack and have the planet run out of clones? 3. Go straight for the relays asap to try and take the planet?
This would actually give a strategic advantage to changing PIs too, which I don't think I've ever seen anyone do.
Finally, the last mechanic to put in place would be this:
The closer you are to the center of MH (and each new... cluster?) the more districts each planet has. So it becomes risk vs. reward, do you open yourself to attacks from more angles for the chance at a bigger district or are you happy with a few fringe planets worth almost nothing while you help your alliance buddies push into new territory? Something along the lines of fringe planets have ~4 districts and center planets ~8-9 districts.
This kind of mechanic would put a bigger emphasis on having an alliance, you want more land, you need more peeps in your alliance! Mega zerg corps have always been kinda meh, I would rather we try to put emphasis on having alliances with many many corps (and many many chances for corp espionage) |
Draco Cerberus
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
265
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 15:26:00 -
[59] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Korvin Lomont wrote:To some degree I could agree with you point of view. Some sort of frontier to battle (similar than it is in risk) would be great, but there must be a way to beat Corps thats manage to grab enough land to never run out of clones or isk. Just imagine you could restock your frontiers with clones where as the attackers only can attack with 120 clones per attack thats stupid and that way it is nearly impossible to break such "fortifications" and that would hurt the game more than the current crappy implementation. So yes there need be the need to act more tactical and strategical but there needs to be a "backdoor" so that there is always a way to beat corps in good positions. BTW I really don't care about your alliance tag 1st: I agree, 120 clone packs gotta go... they give a very large disadvantage to the attacker and overall just makes a bad barrier to entering PC. Otherwise: I agree with you to an extent. A mechanic like this would force you rely on your alliance a lot more. You still could take so much land before your borders are starting to infringe on someone else who will be red to you. Through alliances you can make sure you have your back covered while you fight over your planets. Allied corps can also back stab you if you aren't careful However is here a mechanic I think would very well with a frontline based PC: Planets no longer have district ownership, and we implement a few new PIs: Capital District (max one available per planet): Determines planet ownership Orbital Elevator: Controls the ability to send and receive clones from other planets Defense Relay: Protect capital district, capital district is not available if a relay is still active. Modify: Surface Research Lab: Produces 2,000,000 ISK per day Clone Production Facility: Produces 80 clones per day Clone Storage Facility: Holds 450 clones (same) Planetary districts will now act more like 'modules' for a planet. In this way you can customize how a planet to what you want to do, and in many cases well protected districts may want to switch over to having as many research labs as possible, while contested districts may want more defense relays. So now lets change it to where planets have a 2 hour reinforcement window and attackers can choose within the nearest 15m increment when they want to attack and which district they want to attack. If they lose the attack, nothing happens, if they win the attack, that district goes offline for repairs. Orbital Elevators will take 5 days for repairs with a 7 day reinforcement timer (invulnerability timer) Defense Relays will take 3 days for repairs with no reinforcement timer, only one relay can be repaired at a time. Clone Facilities and Research Labs will take 3 days for repairs with a 5 day reinforcement timer Finally, you leave the system in place where defenders get a 1 hour window after a successful defense to move clones around if they want to. Changing PI should be reduced to 20m from 100m, and take 3 days, with a 3 day lock timer. So when you attack a planet, you will have to make tactical decisions on how you want to approach it. 1. You knock out the elevator so they can't funnel in more clones? 2. Take out clone facilities so you can attack and have the planet run out of clones? 3. Go straight for the relays asap to try and take the planet? This would actually give a strategic advantage to changing PIs too, which I don't think I've ever seen anyone do. Finally, the last mechanic to put in place would be this: The closer you are to the center of MH (and each new... cluster?) the more districts each planet has. So it becomes risk vs. reward, do you open yourself to attacks from more angles for the chance at a bigger district or are you happy with a few fringe planets worth almost nothing while you help your alliance buddies push into new territory? Something along the lines of fringe planets have ~4 districts and center planets ~8-9 districts. This kind of mechanic would put a bigger emphasis on having an alliance, you want more land, you need more peeps in your alliance! Mega zerg corps have always been kinda meh, I would rather we try to put emphasis on having alliances with many many corps (and many many chances for corp espionage) Then, we need to open up land (im thinking 500-700 planets over 2-3 clusters (or whatever MH is), I've diluted the ability for a single planet in PC to make passive money. For a first pass I would leave the clone sale mechanic in. But eventually building a system where PC makes no 'end of match' payouts at all, and its all corp issued contracts would be the real way to make PC battles truly 'player issued' and to remove a mechanic where you can 'farm clones' which is what will be happening soon in PC once the FEC war has concluded. There is only one real issue in this, the lack of planets currently and your restriction of the system to MH region. We are citizens of New Eden and should be able to travel the rest of the regions. I say open all of Empire Space to PC. The Sansha have found a way to make it past Concorde's blockades, so can we. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
1954
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 15:31:00 -
[60] - Quote
Oh yeah, this kind of mechanic would have to come with a devaluation of single planets and the opening of many many more. |
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