DUST Search - The Swarm Launcher

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

Zendeal wrote:

Old stats = 1.2 lock-on, 2s interval 3.2s per shot
4 shots in a clip = 12.8s

New stats= 1.2 lock-on, 0.3 interval 1.5s per shot 4.5 for 3
4.5 s reload
1st shot of next clip 1.5s
Total= 10.5s

It does give swarms a slight increase to burst but I don't think it puts them in the realm of OP. I have sat there with Proto swarms and unloaded an entire clip into the tank only to have them pop an armour repper after the 4th shot and drive away out of LOS. Your damage math doesnt account for passive resistance and shield resistance to swarms.

I agree that dropships are seriously toast for this month until the vehicle balance but at least now with the swarm update there is more of a "burst" potential at the tail end when tanks are hurting to give infantry the ability to finish them off. It always seemed kind of weird to me that pumping out 4 full salvos of Proto swarms wasn't able to kill a tank. Although tanks are a huge cost and SP investment they shouldn't be able to sit there and take a face full of proto AV with no consequence.

You don't need to relock to fire again, I'm relatively certain.

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Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 2709	Posted - 2013.08.23 13:31:00 - [1] - Quote While writing this thread, I worry that it will be completely ignored. This is because CCP Cmdr Wang has openly stated that the community cannot know anything about balance from the patch notes. This is partially to prove him wrong, but mostly because the change is batshit insane. I hope that this comes across as more reasonable than some of the screaming and crying threads in general discussion. 1.4 Patch Notes wrote: * Swarm Launcher base lock-on time has been increased to 1.4 from 1.2 and its fire interval has been reduced from 2 to 0.3 This is equivalent to a 660% rate of fire buff. It has a similar effect on the damage output of the weapon. That's not a typo - that is a huge, huge buff. Why is this necessary? Let's have a look at the current swarm launcher. A basic swarm launcher fires four rockets for 300 damage each. That will do 1200 damage total, each volley. With the prototype Wiyrkomi, this goes up to six rockets for a total volley of 1800. This is before damage modifiers and the proficiency skill. Any serious user of swarm launchers will spend some points on the proficiency skill, giving it a bit more damage. Let's assume the swarm user in this instance took proficiency 3. They will also use damage modifiers. Let's assume the swarm launcher user is using two damage modifiers. These are perfectly reasonable examples because this is what is brought on field in practice. 18001.10 = 1980, 19801.09 = 2158 damage per volley. This is quite powerful, and quite capable of taking out a tank on its own. The volley delay is significant, and gives the tanker time to turn on hardeners/repairers and get to cover. If you reduce the volley delay to the extent of this 1.4 patch, three vollies can hit within a single second. Immediately, 6600 damage is being applied to the HAV. Not even the hardiest of tanks can take that without hardeners on. Shield tanks will fare slightly better, but armour tanks will pretty much get instagibbed due to a huge damage modifier. Both will die quite easily. The volley damage that swarm launchers can put out is huge with this. Compare it to the breach forge gun, which does somewhere around 3000 damage per shot, though instantly and at an excellent range. This weapon takes 6 seconds to charge up, and is immobile and highly visible whilst doing so. A swarm launcher, however, can lock on from behind some cover due to the large locking area and then unload over 6000 damage in under a second. Reload time is inconsequential when you can alpha targets off field within a single clip. The previous reliance on nanohives that swarm launchers had has also been reduced because of the ammo storage buff they're receiving with their skill tweak. This change is not sensible. Please, please, please reverse it. This is serious enough that it would be worth a hotfix immediately. It should never have gone into the patch at all. Swarm launchers are fine right now, apart from some pathfinding silliness that they sometimes do close to the target. This change WILL kill off HAVs, especially at their current pricepoint. Dropships are completely doomed.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5849	Posted - 2013.08.23 13:42:00 - [2] - Quote I want to think that this has to be a typo, but at this point, nothing really surprises me
Muud Kipz Elevated Technologies 47	Posted - 2013.08.23 13:42:00 - [3] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: While writing this thread, I worry that it will be completely ignored. This is because CCP Cmdr Wang has openly stated that the community cannot know anything about balance from the patch notes. This is partially to prove him wrong, but mostly because the change is batshit insane. I hope that this comes across as more reasonable than some of the screaming and crying threads in general discussion. 1.4 Patch Notes wrote: * Swarm Launcher base lock-on time has been increased to 1.4 from 1.2 and its fire interval has been reduced from 2 to 0.3 Surely, surely that was a typo. If it's not, this is FUBAR and unacceptable. I never use tanks, but this is insane.
Knight Soiaire Better Hide R Die 1974	Posted - 2013.08.23 13:42:00 - [4] - Quote Lets not forget the 20% Extra Damage to Armour. I had hope in Wolfman that he was going to be able to pull this off. But definitely not anymore after this ridiculous change.
Zendeal Horizons' Edge Orion Empire 20	Posted - 2013.08.23 14:10:00 - [5] - Quote Old stats = 1.2 lock-on, 2s interval 3.2s per shot 4 shots in a clip = 12.8s New stats= 1.2 lock-on, 0.3 interval 1.5s per shot 4.5 for 3 4.5 s reload 1st shot of next clip 1.5s Total= 10.5s It does give swarms a slight increase to burst but I don't think it puts them in the realm of OP. I have sat there with Proto swarms and unloaded an entire clip into the tank only to have them pop an armour repper after the 4th shot and drive away out of LOS. Your damage math doesnt account for passive resistance and shield resistance to swarms. I agree that dropships are seriously toast for this month until the vehicle balance but at least now with the swarm update there is more of a "burst" potential at the tail end when tanks are hurting to give infantry the ability to finish them off. It always seemed kind of weird to me that pumping out 4 full salvos of Proto swarms wasn't able to kill a tank. Although tanks are a huge cost and SP investment they shouldn't be able to sit there and take a face full of proto AV with no consequence.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 2712	Posted - 2013.08.23 14:12:00 - [6] - Quote Zendeal wrote: Old stats = 1.2 lock-on, 2s interval 3.2s per shot 4 shots in a clip = 12.8s New stats= 1.2 lock-on, 0.3 interval 1.5s per shot 4.5 for 3 4.5 s reload 1st shot of next clip 1.5s Total= 10.5s It does give swarms a slight increase to burst but I don't think it puts them in the realm of OP. I have sat there with Proto swarms and unloaded an entire clip into the tank only to have them pop an armour repper after the 4th shot and drive away out of LOS. Your damage math doesnt account for passive resistance and shield resistance to swarms. I agree that dropships are seriously toast for this month until the vehicle balance but at least now with the swarm update there is more of a "burst" potential at the tail end when tanks are hurting to give infantry the ability to finish them off. It always seemed kind of weird to me that pumping out 4 full salvos of Proto swarms wasn't able to kill a tank. Although tanks are a huge cost and SP investment they shouldn't be able to sit there and take a face full of proto AV with no consequence. You don't need to relock to fire again, I'm relatively certain.
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion 732	Posted - 2013.08.23 14:12:00 - [7] - Quote Zendeal wrote: Old stats = 1.2 lock-on, 2s interval 3.2s per shot 4 shots in a clip = 12.8s New stats= 1.2 lock-on, 0.3 interval 1.5s per shot 4.5 for 3 4.5 s reload 1st shot of next clip 1.5s Total= 10.5s It does give swarms a slight increase to burst but I don't think it puts them in the realm of OP. I have sat there with Proto swarms and unloaded an entire clip into the tank only to have them pop an armour repper after the 4th shot and drive away out of LOS. Your damage math doesnt account for passive resistance and shield resistance to swarms. I agree that dropships are seriously toast for this month until the vehicle balance but at least now with the swarm update there is more of a "burst" potential at the tail end when tanks are hurting to give infantry the ability to finish them off. It always seemed kind of weird to me that pumping out 4 full salvos of Proto swarms wasn't able to kill a tank. Although tanks are a huge cost and SP investment they shouldn't be able to sit there and take a face full of proto AV with no consequence. You're forgetting the Change to the Skil that decreases lock on time by up to 25% for the Operation Skill Under the new change, you will be able to fire a salvo with lock every 1.35 seconds, under the 'current' lock system.. it's 3.2
Hobo on Fire Goonfeet Top Men. 31	Posted - 2013.08.23 14:20:00 - [8] - Quote edit: You DO have to relock for every shot. This isn't as bad as you are making it sound. The Rate of Fire is broken by the lock on, between every shot. Currently, the time to lock onto a target is as burdensome (if not more so) than the delay between shots; you can't just lock onto a target and fire multiple volleys. The ROF increase will just reduce the delay between firing and reaquiring the target - with a longer lock on time. Keep in mind we'll be limited to 3 shots now as well, instead of 5 for prototype swarms. I don't think this will improve my ability to kill HAVs as much as it will improve the speed with which I can switch to a sidearm and defend myself from infantry. Oh, and for the record its 330 damage per missile. I run Wiyrkomis at proficiency 3 with a pair of complex damage mods, and while I can kill militia HAVs in only two or three shots, anything with a decent shield tank, a good armor repairer, or a driver who knows how to use cover still requires a coordinated AV effort to take down. These changes won't alter that.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 2712	Posted - 2013.08.23 14:22:00 - [9] - Quote Hobo on Fire wrote: edit: You DO have to relock for every shot. This isn't as bad as you are making it sound. The Rate of Fire is broken by the lock on, between every shot. Currently, the time to lock onto a target is as burdensome (if not more so) than the delay between shots; you can't just lock onto a target and fire multiple volleys. The ROF increase will just reduce the delay between firing and reaquiring the target - with a longer lock on time. Keep in mind we'll be limited to 3 shots now as well, instead of 5 for prototype swarms. I don't think this will improve my ability to kill HAVs as much as it will improve the speed with which I can switch to a sidearm and defend myself from infantry. Oh, and for the record its 330 damage per missile. I run Wiyrkomis at proficiency 3 with a pair of complex damage mods, and while I can kill militia HAVs in only two or three shots, anything with a decent shield tank (or even a driver who knows how to use cover) still requires a coordinated AV effort to take down. These changes won't alter that. They do? Oh, very good. That changes quite a lot.
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion 732	Posted - 2013.08.23 14:22:00 - [10] - Quote Hobo on Fire wrote: edit: You DO have to relock for every shot. This isn't as bad as you are making it sound. The Rate of Fire is broken by the lock on, between every shot. Currently, the time to lock onto a target is as burdensome (if not more so) than the delay between shots; you can't just lock onto a target and fire multiple volleys. The ROF increase will just reduce the delay between firing and reaquiring the target - with a longer lock on time. Keep in mind we'll be limited to 3 shots now as well, instead of 5 for prototype swarms. I don't think this will improve my ability to kill HAVs as much as it will improve the speed with which I can switch to a sidearm and defend myself from infantry. Oh, and for the record its 330 damage per missile. I run Wiyrkomis at proficiency 3 with a pair of complex damage mods, and while I can kill militia HAVs in only two or three shots, anything with a decent shield tank (or even a driver who knows how to use cover) still requires a coordinated AV effort to take down. These changes won't alter that. The Rate of Fire for a Proto-using Swarm User.. is more than halved... I'd say that this is a big impact.

Hobo on Fire Goonfeet Top Men. 31	Posted - 2013.08.23 14:24:00 - [11] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: The Rate of Fire for a Proto-using Swarm User.. is more than halved... I'd say that this is a big impact. Big, sure. But even Proto swarms are pretty slow to fire right now; and with 3 shots instead of 5 this won't be game breaking. Edited my above post to mention good armor repair modules, since those keep me from a lot of HAV kills as well.
Kaze Eyrou Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 344	Posted - 2013.08.23 14:43:00 - [12] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Zendeal wrote: Old stats = 1.2 lock-on, 2s interval 3.2s per shot 4 shots in a clip = 12.8s New stats= 1.2 lock-on, 0.3 interval 1.5s per shot 4.5 for 3 4.5 s reload 1st shot of next clip 1.5s Total= 10.5s It does give swarms a slight increase to burst but I don't think it puts them in the realm of OP. I have sat there with Proto swarms and unloaded an entire clip into the tank only to have them pop an armour repper after the 4th shot and drive away out of LOS. Your damage math doesnt account for passive resistance and shield resistance to swarms. I agree that dropships are seriously toast for this month until the vehicle balance but at least now with the swarm update there is more of a "burst" potential at the tail end when tanks are hurting to give infantry the ability to finish them off. It always seemed kind of weird to me that pumping out 4 full salvos of Proto swarms wasn't able to kill a tank. Although tanks are a huge cost and SP investment they shouldn't be able to sit there and take a face full of proto AV with no consequence. You don't need to relock to fire again, I'm relatively certain. You do. -stealth edit-
Flix Keptick Red Star. EoN. 44	Posted - 2013.08.23 17:46:00 - [13] - Quote I have just lost all hope in the comunity and the devs. FYI: a proto swarm will be able to deal 10k armor damage in about 4seconds...
Lorhak Gannarsein DUST University Ivy League 207	Posted - 2013.08.24 07:00:00 - [14] - Quote Flix Keptick wrote: I have just lost all hope in the comunity and the devs. FYI: a proto swarm will be able to deal 10k armor damage in about 4seconds... INVISIBLY.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 2728	Posted - 2013.08.24 07:54:00 - [15] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Flix Keptick wrote: I have just lost all hope in the comunity and the devs. FYI: a proto swarm will be able to deal 10k armor damage in about 4seconds... INVISIBLY. I really don't understand this. The damage output of swarms is over the top, yes, but I've never seen them go invisible or curve around corners in order to hit my tank precisely. In fact, many times I've managed to block swarms with some cover on their way to me.
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon DARKSTAR ARMY 475	Posted - 2013.08.24 10:38:00 - [16] - Quote It will be a month of pain for us poor tankers...
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion 751	Posted - 2013.08.24 13:30:00 - [17] - Quote shaman oga wrote: It will be a month of pain for us poor tankers... Dropship Survival Time once in the air.... T-Minus 6 Seconds.
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon DARKSTAR ARMY 476	Posted - 2013.08.24 14:50:00 - [18] - Quote Vehicles in general, except LLAVs... It's better for me to skill in sniper rifles...


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