let's make an example of a match of 10 minutes and 1000 wp

A) 600 sec * 5sp + 1000 wp * 1sp= 4000 sp
B) 600 sec * 3sp + 1000 wp * 3sp= 4800 sp
C) 600 sec * 2sp + 1000 wp * 5sp= 6200 sp
D) 600 sec * 2sp + 1000 wp * 10sp= 11200 sp

E) 600 sec * 2sp + 1000 wp * 4sp= 5200 sp
F) 600 sec * 1sp + 1000 wp * 5sp= 5600 sp

can i pick option E or F?

New Active SP reward system

Active SP is currently awarded at: 5 SP per second + 1 SP per WP.

I think that this is the main reason for the proliferation of AFK SP farming. The difference between ZERO effort and some effort is negligable because the majority of your SP is earned for simply being in the match.

If a player were to AFK only, they will manage to hit the weekly cap in 10.6 hours. A player earning a consistent 3000 WP per hour (1000 SP per skirmish or 750 WP per Ambush) would cap out in 9.1 hours. Clearly 1.5 hours saved is not a great way to incentivise or reward playing.

We can see this demonstrated in the following chart: http://i.imgur.com/ZuO7o1j.png?1

I'd like to consider 3 alternatives:

A) 5 SP per second + 1 SP per WP [now]
B) 3 SP per second + 3 SP per WP
C) 2 SP per second + 5 SP per WP
D) 2 SP per second + 10 SP per WP

Chart: http://i.imgur.com/FfZz3P6.png?1
Table: http://i.imgur.com/yXpO8Po.png?1

These alternatives really reward active players a lot more; and allow many more players to reach the cap. AFK activity will drop right off, since it becomes dramatically suboptimal.

Are there any of these that you prefer the look of? Any other options you'd like to see? I feel pretentious enough today to ask you to like the choices in the posts to follow.

the problem is, the WP system is not perfect. Making WP the cornerstone, rather than auxillary to the SP gain opens up a host of problems, because now WP trumps winning, or playing the way you want to play, or anything else. You don't get WP for NOT DYING. There are a ton of other things you don't get WP for.

Basically you can do really well in a match, not die very much, and not be AFK the whole time, and end up suddenly with a fraction of the SP of anyone in a logi suit, or someone that played a suicide shotgun scout the whole game, because now WP are 50 or 80% of your SP gain instead of 20%.

Its a great idea but it would cause the WP metagame to completely dominate player behavior even more than it already does. It would be much better to just start kicking people for being AFK (and the detection system doesn't need to be an easily-exploited, naive thing).

D) 2 SP per second + 10 SP per WP

Yes, there's definitely a balance to be struck between rewarding WP/playing and not ending up 'punishing' those matches where you just get outclassed or you just have a playstyle that assists the team to win but is not reflected in WP awards.

What would be even better is a graduated SP/WP mechanics so you reward skill without penalizing lack of it.

0 - 500 WP = 8 SP/WP (4000 SP)
500 - 1000 WP = 4 SP/WP (2000 SP)
1000+ WP = 2 SP/WP

all of this + 1 SP/s in battle.

So you discourage WP farming, while still rewarding participation and skill. However, the first 500 WP gets you the bulk of your SP, so unskilled players making 0-500 WP per battle aren't totally boned.

So 1345 WP in a 10 minute battle would net you

600 WP base + 4000 SP (0 - 500 WP) + 2000 SP (500 - 1000 WP) + 690 SP (1000 - 1345 WP)

For a total of: 7290 SP

C and D are better for me, but that would prevent a lot of players from hitting the weekly cap.

I would choose 5 SP/s and 5 SP/WP. This would be beneficial to all skill sets and significantly reduce the grind for veterans.

What if the winning team received a flat bonus of say 1000 SP to each player? That way you can play to win even if you don't end up earning all that many WP during the battle.

I think a flat bonus would be better than a simple multiplier of say 1.5x. A multiplier still mostly rewards those at the top of the score board.

So you end up with WP being your performance related pay and winning being a (significant) flat bonus.

What if the winning team received a flat bonus of say 1000 SP to each player? That way you can play to win even if you don't end up earning all that many WP during the battle.

I think a flat bonus would be better than a simple multiplier of say 1.5x. A multiplier still mostly rewards those at the top of the score board.

So you end up with WP being your performance related pay and winning being a (significant) flat bonus.

New Active SP reward system

Active SP is currently awarded at: 5 SP per second + 1 SP per WP.

I think that this is the main reason for the proliferation of AFK SP farming. The difference between ZERO effort and some effort is negligable because the majority of your SP is earned for simply being in the match.

If a player were to AFK only, they will manage to hit the weekly cap in 10.6 hours. A player earning a consistent 3000 WP per hour (1000 SP per skirmish or 750 WP per Ambush) would cap out in 9.1 hours. Clearly 1.5 hours saved is not a great way to incentivise or reward playing.

We can see this demonstrated in the following chart: http://i.imgur.com/ZuO7o1j.png?1

I'd like to consider 3 alternatives:

A) 5 SP per second + 1 SP per WP [now]
B) 3 SP per second + 3 SP per WP
C) 2 SP per second + 5 SP per WP
D) 2 SP per second + 10 SP per WP

Chart: http://i.imgur.com/FfZz3P6.png?1
Table: http://i.imgur.com/yXpO8Po.png?1

These alternatives really reward active players a lot more; and allow many more players to reach the cap. AFK activity will drop right off, since it becomes dramatically suboptimal.

Are there any of these that you prefer the look of? Any other options you'd like to see? I feel pretentious enough today to ask you to like the choices in the posts to follow.

I think the issue with 5/5 would be that you wouldn't reduce the incentive to AFK to hit the cap. I freely admit to taking advantage of AFKing; and going to 5/5 wouldn't stop be at all.

It's not about reducing the incentive to AFK, it's about increasing the incentive to want to play. You can carry your team and you're barely rewarded for it(thus 5/5 although 5/10 would reduce the grind even further - the fact that we call it a grind says something in and of itself).

That being said you can't cut out those players who don't rack up the WP every game whether they are new or playing a role that doesn't give you many WP such as a dropship pilot or being a distraction. Dust shouldn't be a part time job.

New Active SP reward system

Active SP is currently awarded at: 5 SP per second + 1 SP per WP.

I think that this is the main reason for the proliferation of AFK SP farming. The difference between ZERO effort and some effort is negligable because the majority of your SP is earned for simply being in the match.

If a player were to AFK only, they will manage to hit the weekly cap in 10.6 hours. A player earning a consistent 3000 WP per hour (1000 SP per skirmish or 750 WP per Ambush) would cap out in 9.1 hours. Clearly 1.5 hours saved is not a great way to incentivise or reward playing.

We can see this demonstrated in the following chart: http://i.imgur.com/ZuO7o1j.png?1

I'd like to consider 3 alternatives:

A) 5 SP per second + 1 SP per WP [now]
B) 3 SP per second + 3 SP per WP
C) 2 SP per second + 5 SP per WP
D) 2 SP per second + 10 SP per WP

Chart: http://i.imgur.com/FfZz3P6.png?1
Table: http://i.imgur.com/yXpO8Po.png?1

These alternatives really reward active players a lot more; and allow many more players to reach the cap. AFK activity will drop right off, since it becomes dramatically suboptimal.

Are there any of these that you prefer the look of? Any other options you'd like to see? I feel pretentious enough today to ask you to like the choices in the posts to follow.

What would be even better is a graduated SP/WP mechanics so you reward skill without penalizing lack of it.

0 - 500 WP = 8 SP/WP (4000 SP)
500 - 1000 WP = 4 SP/WP (2000 SP)
1000+ WP = 2 SP/WP

all of this + 1 SP/s in battle.

So you discourage WP farming, while still rewarding participation and skill. However, the first 500 WP gets you the bulk of your SP, so unskilled players making 0-500 WP per battle aren't totally boned.

So 1345 WP in a 10 minute battle would net you

600 WP base + 4000 SP (0 - 500 WP) + 2000 SP (500 - 1000 WP) + 690 SP (1000 - 1345 WP)

For a total of: 7290 SP

ISK
500 ISK/ WP for 0-500
250 ISK/WP for 500-1000
100 ISK/WP for 1000+
also +25% for a win in pubs or 50% for a win in FW/PC and no ISK for a loss but SP is only halved

What if the winning team received a flat bonus of say 1000 SP to each player? That way you can play to win even if you don't end up earning all that many WP during the battle.

I think a flat bonus would be better than a simple multiplier of say 1.5x. A multiplier still mostly rewards those at the top of the score board.

So you end up with WP being your performance related pay and winning being a (significant) flat bonus.

I don't think CCP needs to add additional SP gain multipliers to satisfy newbies. They already have the benefit of cheap initial skills. That should be enough - if not, then the skill tree should be adjusted.

That said, perhaps the skill tree should get rid of the SP cost multipliers. That would a) make it easier for CCP to tweak and balance game performance, b) get rid of skill upgrades without any benefits, and c) makes it easier for players to calculate and compare SP cost.

Hey, I think I'll start a new thread on this!

After this week i've realized that if you only double the WP you need an insane amount of them, to have a good SP payout, if the match don't last at least 15 minutes.
I would like to have some stats like an average duration of skirmish or domination and the average WP gain for each player, to give good suggestions.

I endorse this idea, because quite frankly, the grinding last week was suicide-inducing.

So I featured in this week's highlights: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1207154#post1207154

Come on guys, let's get some real momentum behind getting the Active SP system updated. Post your comments and like the relevant posts on page 1.

Why do others worry about AFK so much?

Because my home server is Oceanic, and I'm sick of joining a match only to see ten AFK players in my MCC, taking up team slots that could have been players actually helping to win the game.

good point... dropship pilots will suffer

Just a little reply with my usual side of snark. No personal affronts intended although I would not complain if it happens.

Why do others worry about AFK so much?

I don't do it unless DUST itself forces me into it, like spawning me into a wall on the MCC although the last one kicked me from battle and I received zip for that.

CCP beget EVE and later DUST. Ganking, AFK, passive SP (only in EVE I believe) and many behaviors that are considered pathological or at least sociopathic in nature are endemic to New Eden. One might wonder how promotion is handled within the corporation; I, however, do not.

Gamers Game Everything.

They play the game. They game the game. They game the rewards, the kills, the health, the deaths, the vehicles and anything they can get near. It is the nature of the beasts that are gamers. Regardless of the game itself.

Recall that DUST is a grinder. A heavy grinder with many significant rewards blocked behind massive SP walls. The only currency in DUST that counts is SP. Some have lives such that playing long hours fits with them. Others don't want to lose the SP but don't want to play the game as heavily. In EVE the solution is built into the game and paid for with subscriptions.

In DUST ... AFK is their solution. Okay, they can in DUST with Passive SP, just not very quickly. If there are too many AFK just switch to long distance play. Snipe, test fly your drop ship or rail tank. DUST Devs say they are considering solutions. Which is fine but considering they built the game that enabled this from the beginning I am not holding my breath.

Personally the system doesn't bother me that much (a little, true enough) as the real alternative is a monthly fee.

New Active SP reward system

Active SP is currently awarded at: 5 SP per second + 1 SP per WP.

I think that this is the main reason for the proliferation of AFK SP farming. The difference between ZERO effort and some effort is negligable because the majority of your SP is earned for simply being in the match.

If a player were to AFK only, they will manage to hit the weekly cap in 10.6 hours. A player earning a consistent 3000 WP per hour (1000 SP per skirmish or 750 WP per Ambush) would cap out in 9.1 hours. Clearly 1.5 hours saved is not a great way to incentivise or reward playing.

We can see this demonstrated in the following chart: http://i.imgur.com/ZuO7o1j.png?1

I'd like to consider 3 alternatives:

A) 5 SP per second + 1 SP per WP [now]
B) 3 SP per second + 3 SP per WP
C) 2 SP per second + 5 SP per WP
D) 2 SP per second + 10 SP per WP

Chart: http://i.imgur.com/FfZz3P6.png?1
Table: http://i.imgur.com/yXpO8Po.png?1

These alternatives really reward active players a lot more; and allow many more players to reach the cap. AFK activity will drop right off, since it becomes dramatically suboptimal.

Are there any of these that you prefer the look of? Any other options you'd like to see? I feel pretentious enough today to ask you to like the choices in the posts to follow.

edit:

Guess what. One day you won't be able to into a match because it will take 30 minutes to an hour to find opponents.

Guess what. One day you won't be able to into a match because it will take 30 minutes to an hour to find opponents.

could the OP look at either ZDub's, My, or the Logarithmic idea and add it to the OP?

The reason it is the way it is now is to allow players to still gain sp at a steady rate even if they get protostomped all the time. I think what would go a long way is using the carrot rather than the stick. The idea of the winning team getting bonus sp and isk is great, but that bonus sp should count towards the weekly cap. Otherwise, protostompers will get even more ahead of everyone else.

The real question would then be how do we design a WP reward system that promotes dynamic, creative, impassioned teamplay? Or is this also the wrong thing to ask of a WP system?

+1

Big fan of option D...might need some thin between C and D though.

The thing that caught my eye was your comment on incentivizing actually winning the match... I am a HUGE proponent of this. As long as losing teams and players aren't punished this could have a major positive impact on game play.

If teams are incentivized to win you get more folks on coms, more folks working together, and a whole host of shaped behavior. I also think that minor but noticeable rewards for squads in the form of extra WPs at the end of the game would be another idea to explore. Essentially, calculate normal individual WPs and for hitting certain thresholds (similar to getting an orbital) you. Get some ISK bonus.