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S Park Finner
BetaMax.
192
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 15:21:00 -
[1] - Quote
TL:DR No players, no game. Wrong players, no game.
A comment in another thread got me thinking about death spirals.
The forums in all current games are filled with people complaining about their personal Injustice of the Week (IotW)(tm). But in most games the majority of players just don't care. The complainers are a vocal minority. They may be opinion leaders -- but more and more that role seems to be falling to youtube, twitch and the more traditional avenues of media reviews and word-of-mouth.
I have placed more weight, in the past, on the informal "first play" videos of regular gamers than I have on the forums. For DUST 514 they have generally been neutral or negative. Surprisingly, recently, they have been more positive. Not good, just better. There are several excellent "professional" HOW-TO youtube series -- but they are increasingly trending more negative.
Unfortunately, for DUST 514, all the other channels of review have either ignored the game or been negative from the start. And as the player population becomes more concentrated in long-term die-hard players the vocal minority is becoming the vocal majority and it's hangers-on.
For the player base this is a death spiral. The rate of adoption of new players slows as existing players create a more and more hostile environment for new players. The long term players become increasingly bitter. When they give up the people that are left are even more hostile and with no new blood in the game they become more bitter and more of them leave.
CCP can be as committed as it wants to building DUST 514. They can reorganize, restaff, and drive hard for better mechanics, more content and polished design. But they need a body of players that is representative of the general population of players to test their work against.
I don't have their internal numbers but I suspect they don't have that at this stage of the game. What they have is those long term players that simply don't represent the universe of players that, in the long run, will be necessary to sustain the game.
Lastly, CCPs marketing has be abysmal. The spokespeople have been disconnected with the initial target community and the channel messages have been superficial. I don't know why. I suspect that the lack of discipline in the project overall combined with a fundamental misunderstanding of the target community has contributed to the marketing confusion.
There are three things I believe should factor into CCP's thinking if they hope to persist. 1) Clearly identify the community you need to sustain the game you want to build. 1) Recognize the target player base you need may well not be the player base you have. 2) Give marketing a clear target, integrate it with development and fund it at a level where it can effectively drive the game's image.
In the end, no matter how committed: no players, no game -- target the wrong community or fail to understand the community you really need, no game.
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Sigberct Amni
Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic
76
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 15:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP has been doing all of the things you listed, just not as fast as the whiny forum minority wants. That note about marketing being abysmal? What you really meant to say was 'less than what you expected.' They have done things like that TV spot and some internet ads.
This post is just another wall of text about how you want everything to just go faster and get better already. I don't think game development works the way you think it does. |
8213
Grade No.2
79
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 15:51:00 -
[3] - Quote
DUST is a side project for CCP funded by EVE. CCP's biggest problem is they are trying to compete with the big developers, but on a shoe string budget. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
2870
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 16:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
S Park Finner wrote:TL:DR No players, no game. Wrong players, no game.
A comment in another thread got me thinking about death spirals.
The forums in all current games are filled with people complaining about their personal Injustice of the Week (IotW)(tm). But in most games the majority of players just don't care. The complainers are a vocal minority. They may be opinion leaders -- but more and more that role seems to be falling to youtube, twitch and the more traditional avenues of media reviews and word-of-mouth.
I have placed more weight, in the past, on the informal "first play" videos of regular gamers than I have on the forums. For DUST 514 they have generally been neutral or negative. Surprisingly, recently, they have been more positive. Not good, just better. There are several excellent "professional" HOW-TO youtube series -- but they are increasingly trending more negative.
Unfortunately, for DUST 514, all the other channels of review have either ignored the game or been negative from the start. And as the player population becomes more concentrated in long-term die-hard players the vocal minority is becoming the vocal majority and it's hangers-on.
For the player base this is a death spiral. The rate of adoption of new players slows as existing players create a more and more hostile environment for new players. The long term players become increasingly bitter. When they give up the people that are left are even more hostile and with no new blood in the game they become more bitter and more of them leave.
CCP can be as committed as it wants to building DUST 514. They can reorganize, restaff, and drive hard for better mechanics, more content and polished design. But they need a body of players that is representative of the general population of players to test their work against.
I don't have their internal numbers but I suspect they don't have that at this stage of the game. What they have is those long term players that simply don't represent the universe of players that, in the long run, will be necessary to sustain the game.
Lastly, CCPs marketing has be abysmal. The spokespeople have been disconnected with the initial target community and the channel messages have been superficial. I don't know why. I suspect that the lack of discipline in the project overall combined with a fundamental misunderstanding of the target community has contributed to the marketing confusion.
There are three things I believe should factor into CCP's thinking if they hope to persist. 1) Clearly identify the community you need to sustain the game you want to build. 1) Recognize the target player base you need may well not be the player base you have. 2) Give marketing a clear target, integrate it with development and fund it at a level where it can effectively drive the game's image.
In the end, no matter how committed: no players, no game -- target the wrong community or fail to understand the community you really need, no game.
>Vocal Minority >Makes post about Vocal Majority |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
636
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 16:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
I think that looking at firstplay videos for honest appraisals of a game is a great approach, S Park Finner.
It goes a long way towards eliminating a lot of forum-based noise from the signal.
I believe that in a lot of ways, CCP has been minor-league 'winging it' in several departments.
All effective design and production environments are created at the top of the organization, and this never happens by accident. I would give up all my Duvolles and proto suits if we could have Jon Lander for just one year. |
Acezero 44
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State
124
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 16:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
players come an go, but everyone feels important.
So the 7% of players that read forums, 2% QQ or post long good bye post's when they break up with the game.
CCP love to log information, we talk to them just by playing the game.
having a vocal majority has never existed on forums from what Iv seen. |
S Park Finner
BetaMax.
194
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 16:28:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:[>Vocal Minority >Makes post about Vocal Majority Ha! Well said. But while we all want the game we would like to play that doesn't mean that game would be a viable business.
Free-to-play is about low threshold for adoption and drawing players into environments where they are having enough fun that they identify with the game. When they do they are willing to cough up some cash to participate with badges of identity like customized in-game gear and out-of-game elements like action figures or spaceship models.
Part of that model is building buzz and maintaining it. It allows you to generate the feeling of elitism without the initial barriers of elitism. Combined with game play that eventually generates a true elite to which the mass of players can ascribe or view as thought leaders is the most difficult balance of mass-appeal game design.
If CCP wanted to build a game for a small segment of players they could have used a different model -- participative crowed funding, early subscription -- with a very clear target design. They didn't. And they have what they have.
So I stick with my assertion that in addition to making the game mechanically better they have to take care they don't make it for too narrow an audience.
That being said there is an alternative. They can make it for a narrow audience but at a much greater cost over a longer period of time. In some ways I believe that was the mind set they brought to the effort in the first place. That's fine. But to do that they still have to maintain a sustaining player base. The death spiral I talked about keeps chipping away at that base and could -- I emphasize could -- create a situation where going on just makes no sense for CCP. |
S Park Finner
BetaMax.
194
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 16:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
Acezero 44 wrote:players come an go, but everyone feels important. ... having a vocal majority has never existed on forums from what Iv seen. Of course you are right. And the "Vocal Majority" point was more rhetorical than fact.
But I still believe -- from a fair amount of anecdotal information drawn from videos, in-game chat and relatively neutral forums -- that the player base is becoming smaller and more concentrated. That leads me to believe it is becoming less representative of the larger community. And that in turn leads to further concentration.
If CCP relies too heavily on that community -- either through in-game metrics or forum posts or whatever -- they risk the trajectory I suggest.
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Panther Alpha
DarkWingsss
872
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 16:38:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP is trying to appeal to the vocal minority...let me explain.. what is the vocal minority is Dust 514, is the vocal majority in other games. The vocal majority is Dust 514, will be the vocal minority in other games.
That is why Dust 514 have a week player-base, with not new players. CCP is appealing to the people that in most games they will be ranked as the "Minority ".
I just going to say it ... CCP is appealing to the wrong people... there.. i say it |
LCB Holdings
Expert Intervention Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 17:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
CCP has always based its decisions on data from the game, that is how they operate in EVE and that is how they will continue operating.
The community that is "left" points out the issues and ineptitude very quickly but CCP usually takes 2 months to do anything towards such scenario. The game is "done" because the core players that sustained the game already left or are considering leaving due lack of action from CCP, disregarding the very essential things such as respec/shooting mechanics/game modes.
Even if the game went to back BETA, players already lost any faith they had left since we all saw what CCP did with all the work that was done in the beta.
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S Park Finner
Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation
195
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 13:09:00 -
[11] - Quote
Panther Alpha wrote:I just going to say it ... CCP is appealing to the wrong people... there.. i say it A software developer can target any audience it wants -- but it does have to target an audience and be sure everyone in the team understands the target.
Leadership means identifying a product for an audience that the audience doesn't yet know it wants.
Sometimes developers get so enamoured of an idea or a technology they they can't see how anyone could not want it. The audience defaults to "everyone who thinks this is as great an idea as we do." If it turns out there are enough other folks around that agree then maybe they can pull it off. Sometimes there aren't enough people who agree -- or the space they are trying to enter has established players that define the way people look at the product.
To overcome those kinds of problems they need a clear vision, understanding of their target audience, perfect execution and world class customer communication. When you set extraordinary goals you need exceptional performance from everyone involved -- or so deep a well of resources that you can keep after it until your on-the-job training catches up with your vision.
I strongly suspect CCP believes they can chip away at this at DUST 514 until they get it right -- fixing the various components of their organization, vision, game mechanics and messaging as they go on the budget they can afford.
I admire people that persist in the face of difficulty and open new vistas. It's a crap-shoot though. Sometimes you fight your way over the mountain and you find a fertile valley filled with friendly people that love what you accomplished. Sometimes you find a desert. |
Sete Clifton
PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY
285
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 13:17:00 -
[12] - Quote
I mean this as objectively as possible (not trying to sound all doom and gloom, just trying to be realistic), but even if they fix all the things we want, I just don't see any of that bringing in a significant amount of long term new players. For the most part, very few outside these forums care about Dust, and once the gaming community moves on from something, it's pretty much done. I know CCP is trying really hard, but I hate to say I think "the market has spoken" when it comes to Dust.
I desperately hope I'm proved wrong eventually, but that's just how it looks from my perspective. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
6956
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 13:18:00 -
[13] - Quote
I think the most common factor of the death spiral is not the player base but the developers usually.
Take defiance for example. 80% of its studio has been fired and since then not much has been updated for it and despite the contract Trion doesn't seem interested in keeping it alive.
Now I am currently studying a death spiral of my own on Planetside 2 observing why one server has ever increasingly dwindling numbers. What was once a 1-12 population over 50 zones has now been severely reduced to about 30 zones and the "None" population zones are in the 2/3rds majority. Asking a few remaining players why so many have left most of them have blamed the developer SOE for not fixing the game at all and focusing on trying to make money instead of making the game good, which has been an extraordinary deep rooted fault of SOE since the days of ruining Star Wars Galaxies. |
Michael Arck
sephiroth clones D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
463
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 13:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I think the most common factor of the death spiral is not the player base but the developers usually.
Take defiance for example. 80% of its studio has been fired and since then not much has been updated for it and despite the contract Trion doesn't seem interested in keeping it alive.
Now I am currently studying a death spiral of my own on Planetside 2 observing why one server has ever increasingly dwindling numbers. What was once a 1-12 population over 50 zones has now been severely reduced to about 30 zones and the "None" population zones are in the 2/3rds majority. Asking a few remaining players why so many have left most of them have blamed the developer SOE for not fixing the game at all and focusing on trying to make money instead of making the game good, which has been an extraordinary deep rooted fault of SOE since the days of ruining Star Wars Galaxies.
I do feel that as long as CCP doesn't pull the rug from underneath Dust 514 and keep developing it, its going to trend like Eve will.
What you talking bout Willis? After all those talks others had made about PS2, the numbers are dwindling? So we expect some players back?
I do agree with your last statement. Dust isn't for everybody just like EVE isn't. Niche gaming. I got faith in CCP |
Himiko Kuronaga
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
1100
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 13:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
PS2 has been out for a while now.
Its numbers have been dwindling continuously, much like any game's will. I wouldn't even say that PS2 doesn't do what it tries to do successfully, it sorta does. It's just that what it does isn't very appealing in the first place.
When it gets released on the PS4 you will see a ton of new people playing the game for the first time, and in time that population will also die. |
MlDDLE MANGEMENT
lMPurity
310
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 13:40:00 -
[16] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I think the most common factor of the death spiral is not the player base but the developers usually. Take defiance for example. 80% of its studio has been fired and since then not much has been updated for it and despite the contract Trion doesn't seem interested in keeping it alive. Now I am currently studying a death spiral of my own on Planetside 2 observing why one server has ever increasingly dwindling numbers. What was once a 1-12 population over 50 zones has now been severely reduced to about 30 zones and the "None" population zones are in the 2/3rds majority. Asking a few remaining players why so many have left most of them have blamed the developer SOE for not fixing the game at all and focusing on trying to make money instead of making the game good, which has been an extraordinary deep rooted fault of SOE since the days of ruining Star Wars Galaxies. I do feel that as long as CCP doesn't pull the rug from underneath Dust 514 and keep developing it, its going to trend like Eve will. A bit dated but this article may explain why my server on PS2 has fights much smaller than most lobby shooters. http://themittani.com/features/how-zerging-ruining-planetside-2
Which PS2 server? Connery has a steady and large server population so im curious which Population is in death spiral. Seems to me PS2 is hitting all the marks and has a actual deliverable vision of the game and in the meantime the game is in good working order with core mechanics. The other question becomes depending on server is how players in there had secondary accounts from other servers. So to say death spiral off of one server is a bit well disingenious IWS but hey we know how deep your belief in CCP is. At least SOE has delivered a game that is fun and worth playing. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
6957
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 13:43:00 -
[17] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:PS2 has been out for a while now.
Its numbers have been dwindling continuously, much like any game's will. I wouldn't even say that PS2 doesn't do what it tries to do successfully, it sorta does. It's just that what it does isn't very appealing in the first place.
When it gets released on the PS4 you will see a ton of new people playing the game for the first time, and in time that population will also die.
Most MMO's 'stabilize' however PS2 has constantly showing to be hemorrhaging, Usually they have a spike at an update and after the spike more players are generally lost than gained.
I am currently playing on Matherson, its been rather empty still ever since the reds broke up and moved elsewhere after they just about shattered everyone's else morals into shreds and made most other outfits quit.
The largest group is less than 48 on the server and last time I rolled with such the platoon commander was specifically avoiding the other team, and the other team was doing the same. |
S Park Finner
Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation
195
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 13:54:00 -
[18] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote: ... I do feel that as long as CCP doesn't pull the rug from underneath Dust 514 and keep developing it, its going to trend like Eve will. ... There are indications the vision of a comprehensive far future universe with player sandbox experiences from FPS to building to space combat is one with wide enough appeal it can sustain a profitable business. I agree the fundamental is how persistent CCP is and can afford to be.
Persistence, though, isn't enough. CCP seem to be moving toward more organizational rigour. I feel CCP need to accelerate that movement if they are going to succeed long term. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
6957
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 13:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
S Park Finner wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote: ... I do feel that as long as CCP doesn't pull the rug from underneath Dust 514 and keep developing it, its going to trend like Eve will. ... There are indications the vision of a comprehensive far future universe with player sandbox experiences from FPS to building to space combat is one with wide enough appeal it can sustain a profitable business. I agree the fundamental is how persistent CCP is and can afford to be. Persistence, though, isn't enough. CCP seem to be moving toward more organizational rigour. I feel CCP need to accelerate that movement if they are going to succeed long term.
Right, which is why the CPM has been pushing for better communications and are patiently waiting for 1.4 notes. |
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