Just give us tons of DMG up close and were good.

If they drop our range, they need to buff our DPS.
If they increase assault scrambler rifle range, they need to decrease their DPS.

They both have the same DPS, same range, same accuracy.

I would be fine to have 40 meters range if the damage got increased.

They probably aren't dropping your range, its going to be the shortest of the AR's probably. It would make sense too if the minmatar combat rifle had just a tad longer distance, but also scopes on everything so they could be more precise at those longer ranges. Right now the scrambler rifle fires it's optimal damage at 25% further range than the AR, and the assault variant is over 10% further. When you get charged scrambler engaging in it's falloff though, the AR can only scrape the SR user.

Also in terms of fitting cost, when comparing the GEK to the CRD-9 Assault SR, you pay 2x more PG to fit the SR. So you get more DPS for less CPU/PG for the plasma weapons. Generally, more range requires higher fitting costs.

"Same DPS..." Not exactly. The fact that you can charge the scrambler rifle means its DPS isn't the same. You can concentrate the DPS on the front end of an attack with the scrambler, especially since it is hitting shield with a damage bonus. IOW, the longer a 1v1 is with between an SR user and a AR user, the better advantage goes to the AR user. At extremely close ranges, though, the scrambler is a little less useful than the AR.

You should keep in mind that eventually there will be shield regenerator logi tools.

Assault scrambler rifle is the same DPS.

And really, you can't say one gets more DPS than another because of resistances, it's situational.
If it's vs shield tanker, ASCR wins.
If it's armor tanker, Combat rifle wins.
If it's hybrid, AR/Rail Rifle wins.

And really, you can't say one gets more DPS than another because of resistances, it's situational.
If it's vs shield tanker, ASCR wins.
If it's armor tanker, Combat rifle wins.
If it's hybrid, AR/Rail Rifle wins.

The AR is anti shields. Combat rifle will be rail rifle and will be the hybrid weapon.

But isnt the ScR supposed to be longer in range than AR's

CCP said all of this but hasnt addressed it upon ScR introduction and havent clarified if AR range may change upon arrival of new weapons.

Don't know if you got my point about the assault scrambler rifle...

A) if it's being carried by an armor tanker, it's more likely to have damage mods than if its carried by the shield caldari that are the most popular AR slayers atm.

B) Since most people I know FIRST shoot through shields THEN shoot through armor it is DEFACTO higher DPS against what it's shooting. Hence the 'frontloaded damage'.

C) My other point in AR vs. ASR was about ranges. At close range I think the AR has the advantage. When you start fighting in the falloff range of the ASR, it can easily start harrassing the AR player. I'd like to get Drake to make a graph showing the ASR's falloff vs. the GEK.

It will increase a bit with aim assist. And if you want to play with plasma like a true Gallente would you'd equip damage mods in your high slot for max gank, but people don't have the balls for that right now. Also, you have the shotgun for close range plasma crazyness. But its still a little to choppy to put reliable shots on target.

Otherwise, the logical and sensible Caldari weapons (probably with a rebalanced assault bonus when they come out) will be Caldari assaults running with Rail weapons. I wouldn't be suprised if you see rail weapons have a significant dispersion which hampers them at long ranges, but the caldari assaults would get a penalty reduction that makes them that much more powerful or something like that.

So eventually I see the meta being (when all the suits and weapons come out):

Minmatar:
Tank: Lightest tanks, but the fastest, high shield regen. (can't wait for a fairly speedy minmatar heavy with an HMG)
Battle strategy: Consistently apply damage at short to medium range as their speed allow them to pick when and where they fight.

Caldari:
Tank: best shield tank, moderate speed, longest ranged rail weapons but at fitting costs.
Battle strategy: use tank buffer, range, and situational awareness to accurately apply damage at ranges where they cannot be effectively touched.

Amarr:
Tank: Strong regen, and armor/hybrid tanks, very slow. Damage is anti shield and very 'burst' oriented at medium to long range.
Battle strategy: If caught at close ranges they are easy to take down. However their resiliance and buffer at medium at long ranges means they can use their strong short-term burst damage weapons to quickly take down enemies before their can react.

Gallente:
Tank: Favors armor tank supported with squad support. Can go for armor regen (less logi support) or buffer (with more support).
Battle strategy: Situational awareness is key, as they excel when they know where their enemy is going ahead of time. Their average buffer allows them to apply the highest amounts of damage with suprise and extreme prejudice at close range. Logi support means fallen squad mates can recover quickly after a skirmish with most of their health quickly restored. Assault's fitting reductions to weapons means better weapons with more free fitting space for a tank.

If they drop our range, they need to buff our DPS.
If they increase assault scrambler rifle range, they need to decrease their DPS.

They both have the same DPS, same range, same accuracy.

I would be fine to have 40 meters range if the damage got increased.

Why decrease the scr dps? If the ar dps is increased and range decreased I don't see a problem with the scr dmg?

Quite positive you have not checked anything have you???? Minmatar has the worst shield regen.

Why decrease the scr dps? If the ar dps is increased and range decreased I don't see a problem with the scr dmg?

ScR is 25% longer optimal range than AR
AScR is 12.5% longer optimal than AR

TAC-AR is longer range than all 3 though...

Maybe he means the up close DMG on the semi-auto SCR.

Do not use damage mods for your comparison.

If the assault scrambler rifle gets more range, it MUST do less DPS, simple as that. It also has more accurate hip fire and a larger clip

Yes

I would expect the AScR to be longer than the AR but also expect the ScR to be longer than the TAC

I doubt they are going to remove the Burst and TAC to introduce the Combat and Rail so I would assume they will have to change some ranges but who knows.

Disagree slightly, damage mods partially relate to tank. Amarr Armor users are more likely to use damage mods and the SR. But regardless the other points still apply (fighting in falloff and charged shots make its DPS more lethal at longer ranges). I agree that without the mods, inside their optimals, on paper, their DPS is the same.



I want to say I've seen you say you've been using the scrambler. So I think you know though that the penalty for scrambler spam is that it gets a lot more dispersion over time than the AR. So you can't hold and fire like the AR at hip or with ADS. It has to use short bursts. This means at the edge of their optimals that the AR can be a little more suppressive than the ASR and the ASR takes more skill.

So IMO, requiring more skill at range, dealing with overheating on the SR, and higher fitting cost is a completely valid reason to let it have at least the same DPS as the AR while having longer range...we can debate that though? Where do you think that trade off is fair?

Do not use damage mods for your comparison.

If the assault scrambler rifle gets more range, it MUST do less DPS, simple as that.
It also has more accurate hip fire and a larger clip.

Quite positive you have not checked anything have you???? Minmatar has the worst shield regen.

I would agree because CCP talked about other races having similar weapons but not as strong in their niche so AScR not as strong as AR, Combat Rifle stronger than Burst and Rail Rifle stronger than TAC with ScR between them.

At least that was my understanding and please note "stronger" means better in role so it may be damage or RoF or longer range etc.

Yes on their base stats, but they get the highest or second highest no. of high slots on all suits and better PG/CPU than caldari. Just wait until their heavy comes out! I bet it will be just a tad slower than assaults, when equipped with a 750-800 HP shield tank and endurance mods will make a wicked HMG user!

It was when Wolfman iirc posted about the different weapons and how Gallente have the short range high damage weapon but the Amarr have their own version but it isnt as effective etc.

Then went on to say how the burst and tac were kind of place holders etc.

TAC AR is the ScR and the burst is the combat rifle. Somehow the breach is supposed to be the rail rifle. I'm expecting that the full auto version will be low RoF but high damage at mid range or something.

Actually, it's the opposite.
AR gets much, much more dispersion.
You can test it yourself.

Yeah I'm looking at some youtubes now and I'm doubting myself on this. I just have been watching a lot of jungian's stuff who probably has the dispersion skill trained and he's looking like he's getting a lot of damage on target at >45m range.

TAC AR is the ScR and the burst is the combat rifle. Somehow the breach is supposed to be the rail rifle. I'm expecting that the full auto version will be low RoF but high damage at mid range or something.

Rail Rifle will have the longest range.
Which seems perfect, because the Breach AR has 100 less DPS than the normal AR.
But with the current range values on the Breach AR...
Yeah that's bad.

I'm pretty sure the shield tanking heavies we had back in Chrome were placeholders for the Minmatar heavy. HMG is going to need a rework to match that playstyle. Probably a suppression effect while the heavy laser becomes more defense oriented.

I said "IF".
It's one of the two.
Either decrease range and increase DPS on the AR
OR
Increase range and drecrease DPS on the ASCR

Yes on their base stats, but they get the highest or second highest no. of high slots on all suits and better PG/CPU than caldari. Just wait until their heavy comes out! I bet it will be just a tad slower than assaults, when equipped with a 750-800 HP shield tank and endurance mods will make a wicked HMG user!

I would agree because CCP talked about other races having similar weapons but not as strong in their niche so AScR not as strong as AR, Combat Rifle stronger than Burst and Rail Rifle stronger than TAC with ScR between them.

At least that was my understanding and please note "stronger" means better in role so it may be damage or RoF or longer range etc.

A) You are using a plasma weapon. It is made for close range fighting (<35m).
B) With reduced choppiness and slowly better framerate and server/client issues people are getting better at longer ranges.
C) More long range weapons are incoming.
D) Aim-assist is incoming which will further help longer range tracking and killing.

Do not expect a buff to your AR range because plasma is supposed to be the shortest range rifle. (Should be called carbine btw)

Do not complain that you are losing all of your shield all the time to charged laser shots because that is their vulnerability.

I'm just saying you should be forewarned that the days of the AR are numbered.

Buffing AR damage might have some unintended knock-on effects...

like getting rid of any reason to use the HMG. Or we could buff it too?

It will increase a bit with aim assist. And if you want to play with plasma like a true Gallente would you'd equip damage mods in your high slot for max gank, but people don't have the balls for that right now. Also, you have the shotgun for close range plasma crazyness. But its still a little to choppy to put reliable shots on target.

Otherwise, the logical and sensible Caldari weapons (probably with a rebalanced assault bonus when they come out) will be Caldari assaults running with Rail weapons. I wouldn't be suprised if you see rail weapons have a significant dispersion which hampers them at long ranges, but the caldari assaults would get a penalty reduction that makes them that much more powerful or something like that.

So eventually I see the meta being (when all the suits and weapons come out):

Minmatar:
Tank: Lightest tanks, but the fastest, high shield regen. (can't wait for a fairly speedy minmatar heavy with an HMG)
Battle strategy: Consistently apply damage at short to medium range as their speed allow them to pick when and where they fight.

Caldari:
Tank: best shield tank, moderate speed, longest ranged rail weapons but at fitting costs.
Battle strategy: use tank buffer, range, and situational awareness to accurately apply damage at ranges where they cannot be effectively touched.

Amarr:
Tank: Strong regen, and armor/hybrid tanks, very slow. Damage is anti shield and very 'burst' oriented at medium to long range.
Battle strategy: If caught at close ranges they are easy to take down. However their resiliance and buffer at medium at long ranges means they can use their strong short-term burst damage weapons to quickly take down enemies before their can react.

Gallente:
Tank: Favors armor tank supported with squad support. Can go for armor regen (less logi support) or buffer (with more support).
Battle strategy: Situational awareness is key, as they excel when they know where their enemy is going ahead of time. Their average buffer allows them to apply the highest amounts of damage with suprise and extreme prejudice at close range. Logi support means fallen squad mates can recover quickly after a skirmish with most of their health quickly restored. Assault's fitting reductions to weapons means better weapons with more free fitting space for a tank.

A) You are using a plasma weapon. It is made for close range fighting (<35m).
B) With reduced choppiness and slowly better framerate and server/client issues people are getting better at longer ranges.
C) More long range weapons are incoming.
D) Aim-assist is incoming which will further help longer range tracking and killing.

Do not expect a buff to your AR range because plasma is supposed to be the shortest range rifle. (Should be called carbine btw)

Do not complain that you are losing all of your shield all the time to charged laser shots because that is their vulnerability.

I'm just saying you should be forewarned that the days of the AR are numbered.