DUST Search - Why armor plates are useless for heavys, the slower you are the worse plates bec...

ladwar wrote:

2-Ton Twenty-One wrote:

That is explaining the correlation between speed EHP and DPS recited.

It is explaining how Projectiles are not RELATIVE to Dropsuit DPS recived. I was saying if you GAVE a scout suit the same EHP as a heavy they have no difference in the class damage received. IE DPS from infantry weapons treats all dropsuits the SAME, regardless of Class.

If you want to Grab pro words and make a straw man that's your deal. but anyone who reads the statement in its ENTIRETY will not see that.

It was about the correlation and nothing more.

"Now that would be counterbalanced if heavy suit or armor was good vs projectile weapons (tanking damage) , however EVE is counter intuitive on this, as armor is apparently not what you would use to block projectiles? instead shields are for projectiles and armor is good for energy weapons?

Also all dropsuits handle incoming fire the same way, thus if hp values where the same a scout could take as much dmg as a heavy, and seeing as how much DPS you are receiving is more important then total health you would be better of with resistances then more EHP meaning a heavys survivability really drops off once his health bar is at 20% regardless of how much health that is because the enemy will focus that guy and unlike how you would thing that would be a good think and a tactical mistake on the enemy in dust it is rewarded."

your just mad because im right. i'll wait for you to get over yourself and see that i am indeed correct here.

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2-Ton Twenty-One Internal Error. League of Infamy 737	Posted - 2013.07.17 19:39:00 - [1] - Quote As a pro heavy let me explain why I never use armor plates, and never plan to in the future. TL:DR You probably should not comment then should you? and read the title I guess. Let me break it down for you. Basic points to remember Behind cover 0 Damage Outside of cover Damage! Moving back into cover Damage relative to enemy constant ROF/DPS and your movement speed. While your fighting other suits your ability to move in and out of cover quickly is probably one of your most important skills, If you load up on plates that means your going to get to cover that % slower, and because your FOV is less then your heavy suit hitbox IE your heavy suit is firing from beside a wall then takes fire and moves its body fully behind said wall you will be taking that % more dmg before your Hitbox is fully behind cover (shoulders arm legs), that % of hit based fire is MORE then the amount of tank you are going to get out of the Plates! That is the problem, if you move 10% slower and you need to move your body behind a wall OB it is going to take you 10% more time to get there (1 Complex plate), and seeing as how the plates are not absorbing 10% more damage for the Heavy suit you end up handicapping yourself!! So let me give you a scenario, Your a heavy firing at a group of enemy's you are using a wall as cover, you start taking damage, so you start to putting your body fully behind the wall so you don't die. Now if you have a armor plate you will take 10% more dmg because you move 10% slower, The enemy ROF is unchanged or the constant. Now your plate does not absorb 10% more dmg for you, thus you take more dmg moving your body fully behind that wall, Also in order to shoot your HMG you have to see your enemy IE your FOV your FOV is less then your hitbox, By that I mean your hitbox is exposed BEFORE your FOV so you take dmg while moving out and into cover at points when you cannot return fire. Thus if you have plates you will take that 10% more dmg then without, and since the amount of HP does not compensate for this your really making things worse. Now enemy ROF is constant thus the faster you naturally are the less significant this will be, however the SLOWER you are the MORE of a factor this is going to be. Thus plates are BETTER the faster you are and WORSE the slower your base speed. This is why the whole EVE system for looking at DMG, DPS, EHP, Resistances and everything else does not work in a FPS (in its current imagining anyway, not that it could not be made to work) >Added crazy thoughts below but not required nor really to be taken without a bucket or bathtub of salt. Not to mention the added problem of the fact that any enemy worth his salt is going to focus fire the dude with 0 shields and half health, thus your making yourself more of a bullet magnet once your health bar "looks" low to the enemy Now that would be counterbalanced if heavy suit or armor was good vs projectile weapons (tanking damage) , however EVE is counter intuitive on this, as armor is apparently not what you would use to block projectiles? instead shields are for projectiles and armor is good for energy weapons? Also all dropsuits handle incoming fire the same way, thus if hp values where the same a scout could take as much dmg as a heavy, and seeing as how much DPS you are receiving is more important then total health you would be better of with resistances then more EHP meaning a heavys survivability really drops off once his health bar is at 20% regardless of how much health that is because the enemy will focus that guy and unlike how you would thing that would be a good thing and a tactical mistake on the enemy in dust it is rewarded. You can also see why a caldari logi with a tank fit is so effective, because he has speed (relative to the enemy ROF) and a large pool of health and a smaller hit box. And his suit overall has More resistance to projectiles then a heavy. Anyway that is a whole nother bag of crazy.
Zekain Kade TeamPlayers EoN. 1241	Posted - 2013.07.17 19:41:00 - [2] - Quote TL;DR: Armor plates are bad. You're welcome.
Sgt Kirk SyNergy Gaming EoN. 825	Posted - 2013.07.17 19:46:00 - [3] - Quote I've been playing this game for a year and armor plates have always been terrible. Especially when compared to the pros and cons of shield v armor. You have a much higher chance of survivability if you play as shields in this game.
2-Ton Twenty-One Internal Error. League of Infamy 737	Posted - 2013.07.17 19:50:00 - [4] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: I've been playing this game for a year and armor plates have always been terrible. Especially when compared to the pros and cons of shield v armor. You have a much higher chance of survivability if you play as shields in this game. Yeah I touch on that at the end, I wish instead of 2 health bars the game just had a single health bar or something, or hell why have one at all? It really puts anyone at a disadvantage in armor just based on team fire aspect of the game. But there are allot of reasons why armor is bad, its a a number of issues that add up.
MassiveNine Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 187	Posted - 2013.07.17 20:13:00 - [5] - Quote I have been saying this for ages now. Reppers are far more useful than plates are. Even since before codex armor tanking (at least for heavies) has been dead. With two complex shield regulators and two armor reppers I have full health in less than a minute, which to me is far more useful than having lots of armor but no reps.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 925	Posted - 2013.07.17 20:14:00 - [6] - Quote TL;DR: heavies want to more as fast as scouts or faster AND keep their HP. me: LOL, GTFO.
2-Ton Twenty-One Internal Error. League of Infamy 739	Posted - 2013.07.17 20:18:00 - [7] - Quote ladwar wrote: TL;DR: heavies want to more as fast as scouts or faster AND keep their HP. me: LOL, GTFO. *facepalm Dumbest guy in dust. Tell me where I said that?
RedZer0 MK1 Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 2	Posted - 2013.07.17 20:21:00 - [8] - Quote Ferroscale is the best option, and its still worse than shields. Double the armour amount of plates and things would be fine. Or cut the speed penalty down to a reasonable level.
Hecarim Van Hohen Bullet Cluster 72	Posted - 2013.07.17 20:24:00 - [9] - Quote Knowing how bad armor plates are I just fitted 2 complex reppers to my lvl 1 basic heavy frame, I still have that sensation of almost moving and a loss to my ehp but on a side note, it's still beter than Amarr logi :P ps. nice post, I agree, +1 RedZer0 MK1 wrote: Ferroscale is the best option, and its still worse than shields. Double the armour amount of plates and things would be fine. Or cut the speed penalty down to a reasonable level. This would just make the armor plates completely obsolete. What we need is that CCP either reduce speed penalty (insert % here) or increase the HP they give. but this is just me
N1ck Comeau Pro Hic Immortalis League of Infamy 785	Posted - 2013.07.17 20:24:00 - [10] - Quote I stack two complex plates and two complex reppers on my Proto heavy. I like the armour because movement doesn't matter with how i play, in a 1v1 gunfight i'm gonna win 99% of the time because by the time he starts doing lots of damage, he's been long dead. (with the exception of flaylocks and contact nades)

2-Ton Twenty-One Internal Error. League of Infamy 740	Posted - 2013.07.17 20:25:00 - [11] - Quote RedZer0 MK1 wrote: Ferroscale is the best option, and its still worse than shields. Double the armour amount of plates and things would be fine. Or cut the speed penalty down to a reasonable level. See that is a intelligence response, You read my reasoning as to why plates are not worthwhile and then formulated a way to fix them. I left ways to fix plates out of my post because there are a large number of solutions available to CCP, and a lot of reasons as to why they are ineffective in their current state for heavy's.
RedZer0 MK1 Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 2	Posted - 2013.07.17 20:30:00 - [12] - Quote 2-Ton Twenty-One wrote: RedZer0 MK1 wrote: Ferroscale is the best option, and its still worse than shields. Double the armour amount of plates and things would be fine. Or cut the speed penalty down to a reasonable level. See that is a intelligence response, You read my reasoning as to why plates are not worthwhile and then formulated a way to fix them. I left ways to fix plates out of my post because there are a large number of solutions available to CCP, and a lot of reasons as to why they are ineffective in their current state for heavy's. It has always been like this though, anyone who plays something other than shield tank knows whats wrong. More immportanly will admit it.
2-Ton Twenty-One Internal Error. League of Infamy 742	Posted - 2013.07.17 20:30:00 - [13] - Quote N1ck Comeau wrote: I stack two complex plates and two complex reppers on my Proto heavy. I like the armour because movement doesn't matter with how i play, in a 1v1 gunfight i'm gonna win 99% of the time because by the time he starts doing lots of damage, he's been long dead. (with the exception of flaylocks and contact nades) You will find that in any team play, or squad engagements, your survivability is going to be more factored by your ability to shoot from in and out of cover especially when having to deal with team fire. also if the enemy ever decides to use cover and pepper pot you, your going to find yourself at a massive disadvantage. Its less about your ability to fight the first 1v1 but more about how your going to fight the successive enemy's. And with plates in their current fashion you wont be able to sustain when fighting constant engagements.
Sgt Kirk SyNergy Gaming EoN. 827	Posted - 2013.07.17 20:32:00 - [14] - Quote RedZer0 MK1 wrote: Ferroscale is the best option, and its still worse than shields. Double the armour amount of plates and things would be fine. Or cut the speed penalty down to a reasonable level. To add onto that the complex ferroscale plates take and a helluva lot of CPU/PG.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 925	Posted - 2013.07.17 20:32:00 - [15] - Quote 2-Ton Twenty-One wrote: ladwar wrote: TL;DR: heavies want to more as fast as scouts or faster AND keep their HP. me: LOL, GTFO. facepalm Dumbest guy in dust. Tell me where I said that? here crying fanboi wrote:* Thus plates are BETTER the faster you are and WORSE the slower your base speed.
N1ck Comeau Pro Hic Immortalis League of Infamy 785	Posted - 2013.07.17 20:35:00 - [16] - Quote 2-Ton Twenty-One wrote: N1ck Comeau wrote: I stack two complex plates and two complex reppers on my Proto heavy. I like the armour because movement doesn't matter with how i play, in a 1v1 gunfight i'm gonna win 99% of the time because by the time he starts doing lots of damage, he's been long dead. (with the exception of flaylocks and contact nades) You will find that in any team play, or squad engagements, your survivability is going to be more factored by your ability to shoot from in and out of cover especially when having to deal with team fire. also if the enemy ever decides to use cover and pepper pot you, your going to find yourself at a massive disadvantage. Its less about your ability to fight the first 1v1 but more about how your going to fight the successive enemy's. And with plates in their current fashion you wont be able to sustain when fighting constant engagements. I disagree. 20% reduction to something that is already very low ain't that much. and if your fighting a team based scenario then i'm gonna have a proto logi with proto reps on me at all times, if one enemy is pepper potting me then i'll be able to Flank Depending on distance i could rush him. Run away. Theres always options then just dieing
2-Ton Twenty-One Internal Error. League of Infamy 743	Posted - 2013.07.17 20:43:00 - [17] - Quote ladwar wrote: 2-Ton Twenty-One wrote: ladwar wrote: TL;DR: heavies want to more as fast as scouts or faster AND keep their HP. me: LOL, GTFO. facepalm Dumbest guy in dust. Tell me where I said that? here crying fanboi wrote:* Thus plates are BETTER the faster you are and WORSE the slower your base speed. and here same crying fanboi wrote: scout could take as much dmg as a heavy That is explaining the correlation between speed EHP and DPS revived. It is explaining how Projectiles are not RELATIVE to Dropsuit DPS recived. I was saying if you GAVE a scout suit the same EHP as a heavy they have no difference in the class damage received. IE DPS from infantry weapons treats all dropsuits the SAME, regardless of Class. If you want to Grab pro words and make a straw man that's your deal. but anyone who reads the statement in its ENTIRETY will not see that. It was about the correlation and nothing more. "Now that would be counterbalanced if heavy suit or armor was good vs projectile weapons (tanking damage) , however EVE is counter intuitive on this, as armor is apparently not what you would use to block projectiles? instead shields are for projectiles and armor is good for energy weapons? Also all dropsuits handle incoming fire the same way, thus if hp values where the same a scout could take as much dmg as a heavy, and seeing as how much DPS you are receiving is more important then total health you would be better of with resistances then more EHP meaning a heavys survivability really drops off once his health bar is at 20% regardless of how much health that is because the enemy will focus that guy and unlike how you would thing that would be a good thing and a tactical mistake on the enemy in dust it is rewarded."
Green Living 0uter.Heaven EoN. 614	Posted - 2013.07.17 20:49:00 - [18] - Quote This is why I speed tank with my Amarr Assault instead of using any of the garbage armor plates.
2-Ton Twenty-One Internal Error. League of Infamy 743	Posted - 2013.07.17 20:54:00 - [19] - Quote N1ck Comeau wrote: 2-Ton Twenty-One wrote: N1ck Comeau wrote: I stack two complex plates and two complex reppers on my Proto heavy. I like the armour because movement doesn't matter with how i play, in a 1v1 gunfight i'm gonna win 99% of the time because by the time he starts doing lots of damage, he's been long dead. (with the exception of flaylocks and contact nades) You will find that in any team play, or squad engagements, your survivability is going to be more factored by your ability to shoot from in and out of cover especially when having to deal with team fire. also if the enemy ever decides to use cover and pepper pot you, your going to find yourself at a massive disadvantage. Its less about your ability to fight the first 1v1 but more about how your going to fight the successive enemy's. And with plates in their current fashion you wont be able to sustain when fighting constant engagements. I disagree. 20% reduction to something that is already very low ain't that much. and if your fighting a team based scenario then i'm gonna have a proto logi with proto reps on me at all times, if one enemy is pepper potting me then i'll be able to Flank Depending on distance i could rush him. Run away. Theres always options then just dieing As someone who as played a lot of top tier PC I gotta tell you I disagree completely. 1. proto reps are not worthwhile compared to outputting of DPS. IE its far better to have that guy outputting DPS 2. your shields are gone if your getting repped that means the enemy team is much more likely to focus fire you and they will. 3. your plates stack movement penalty so its not 20% its 10% stacking on 10%. 4. Any flank you perform leaves your side a man down for that amount of movement % slow down down. 5. by the time you have done that flank depending on distance the battle will have prob been won or lost depending on how long of a flank we are talking about. 6. proto logi heals are nothing compared to 2 guys shooting at you and its unreliable when combined with grenades and teamfire. 7, you cant run your a heavy lol your there for the duration. and any run you do is % slower. And like I said one enemy is not something your going to encounter in team matches, your fighting teams and thus have to play in a matter congruent with that. and any pub stomping you plan on doing will always fall short then when compared to someone running a faster fit heavy in most engagements. As a heavy who has played alot of high ranking matches I have to tell you I would never do it nor would anyone ever advise it.
J Lav Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 129	Posted - 2013.07.17 21:00:00 - [20] - Quote I get the logic disconnects you're pointing out. I get that it makes little sense for bullets to do the same damage to a scout suit as it would a reinforced heavy suit. Therein lies where I think a solution can be found. Armour plates could contain an added resistance against projectile and explosive weapons, as well as heavy suits giving it a bonus. ie. Basic Armour plates +65 hp, +15% resistance to projectile and explosive. (making it 100% on the damage), - 5% movement (or whatever it is) There would be stacking penalties to the resistance, but complex plates wouldn't need to offer more resistance, just more health. And to the person above who thinks we're asking for a scout suit speed on a heavy, we have that already, it's called a Caldari Logi suit.

Bendtner92 Internal Error. League of Infamy 747	Posted - 2013.07.17 21:04:00 - [21] - Quote As a former full time heavy and now part time heavy that have never run with complex plates I must agree with OP.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 925	Posted - 2013.07.17 21:09:00 - [22] - Quote 2-Ton Twenty-One wrote: That is explaining the correlation between speed EHP and DPS recited. It is explaining how Projectiles are not RELATIVE to Dropsuit DPS recived. I was saying if you GAVE a scout suit the same EHP as a heavy they have no difference in the class damage received. IE DPS from infantry weapons treats all dropsuits the SAME, regardless of Class. If you want to Grab pro words and make a straw man that's your deal. but anyone who reads the statement in its ENTIRETY will not see that. It was about the correlation and nothing more. "Now that would be counterbalanced if heavy suit or armor was good vs projectile weapons (tanking damage) , however EVE is counter intuitive on this, as armor is apparently not what you would use to block projectiles? instead shields are for projectiles and armor is good for energy weapons? Also all dropsuits handle incoming fire the same way, thus if hp values where the same a scout could take as much dmg as a heavy, and seeing as how much DPS you are receiving is more important then total health you would be better of with resistances then more EHP meaning a heavys survivability really drops off once his health bar is at 20% regardless of how much health that is because the enemy will focus that guy and unlike how you would thing that would be a good think and a tactical mistake on the enemy in dust it is rewarded." your just mad because im right. i'll wait for you to get over yourself and see that i am indeed correct here.
Killar-12 Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 197	Posted - 2013.07.17 21:18:00 - [23] - Quote ladwar wrote: 2-Ton Twenty-One wrote: That is explaining the correlation between speed EHP and DPS recited. It is explaining how Projectiles are not RELATIVE to Dropsuit DPS recived. I was saying if you GAVE a scout suit the same EHP as a heavy they have no difference in the class damage received. IE DPS from infantry weapons treats all dropsuits the SAME, regardless of Class. If you want to Grab pro words and make a straw man that's your deal. but anyone who reads the statement in its ENTIRETY will not see that. It was about the correlation and nothing more. "Now that would be counterbalanced if heavy suit or armor was good vs projectile weapons (tanking damage) , however EVE is counter intuitive on this, as armor is apparently not what you would use to block projectiles? instead shields are for projectiles and armor is good for energy weapons? Also all dropsuits handle incoming fire the same way, thus if hp values where the same a scout could take as much dmg as a heavy, and seeing as how much DPS you are receiving is more important then total health you would be better of with resistances then more EHP meaning a heavys survivability really drops off once his health bar is at 20% regardless of how much health that is because the enemy will focus that guy and unlike how you would thing that would be a good think and a tactical mistake on the enemy in dust it is rewarded." your just mad because im right. i'll wait for you to get over yourself and see that i am indeed correct here. Increase PG/CPU on a Heavy give Light,Medium and heavy Plates like this Why should Armor tankers be penalized for better plates? there should be three types of plates Light armor plates 3% movement penalty across the board slightly lower CPU/PG used for scout who want more protection than a Ferroscale plate Basic Light Plates 60 HP Enhanced Light Plates 90 HP Complex Light Plates 120HP Medium Armor plates 5% movement penalties Same as current PG/CPU needs for medium suits Basic Medium Plates 90 HP Enhanced Medium Plates 130 HP Complex Meduim Plates 170 HP Heavy Plates 15% movement penalty triple PG needs x1.5 CPU needs, for heavies Basic Heavy Plates 125 HP Enhanced Heavy Plates 200 HP Complex Heavy Plates 275 HP I just took this from one of my earlier forum posts so...
Jin Robot Foxhound Corporation General Tso's Alliance 1477	Posted - 2013.07.17 21:19:00 - [24] - Quote its just not balanced. the difference between how many HPs shields extenders give and how many armor plates give is not equal to the speed penalty of plates. as OP was saying a few more HPs does not make up for the speed loss, as pointed out it actually gives negative return. edit: was replying in general, not to the post above this one.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5260	Posted - 2013.07.17 21:28:00 - [25] - Quote 2-Ton Twenty-One wrote: Let me break it down for you. Basic points to remember Behind cover 0 Damage Outside of cover Damage! Giving you a like just because I was drinking water and almost destroyed my keyboard as I laughed >_< Reading the rest now, though I don't have a single SP in Armor Plates because they've never been good for Heavies :/
J Lav Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 130	Posted - 2013.07.17 23:28:00 - [26] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: 2-Ton Twenty-One wrote: Let me break it down for you. Basic points to remember Behind cover 0 Damage Outside of cover Damage! Giving you a like just because I was drinking water and almost destroyed my keyboard as I laughed >_< Reading the rest now, though I don't have a single SP in Armor Plates because they've never been good for Heavies :/ I put a pile of SP into plates, thinking that it was like in Chromosome and gave a passive benefit.... ... ............ poo. Reading would have helped.
ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 307	Posted - 2013.07.17 23:57:00 - [27] - Quote Yup. This guy gets it.
Alldin Kan Internal Error. 407	Posted - 2013.07.18 00:42:00 - [28] - Quote Basic plates are all what's needed for a heavy...
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 594	Posted - 2013.07.18 00:49:00 - [29] - Quote Didn't read everything but I don't care, I run with buddies who stack the complex armor plates on their heavy and they are actually able to sustain small firearms. We usually tear it up, especially with the core armor repairer. You're losing less speed per plate when used on a heavy compared to anything else. All these heavies complaining they can't be a point defense man yet are trying to use ferroscale plates
Killar-12 Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 200	Posted - 2013.07.18 00:59:00 - [30] - Quote Armor Pros slightly higher HP Cons Slow Low Regen cannot fit PG or CPU modules Shield Pros mediocre HP buff high regen can fit PG and CPU modules no cons

Galvan Nized Deep Space Republic Top Men. 155	Posted - 2013.07.18 01:25:00 - [31] - Quote It has already been said but less speed=less speed loss from armor plates. These are the best way of mitigating the penalty Part of the issue here is map design. We have giant open areas that are a killing ground. You need to traverse these quickly and more hp doesn't really help. Don't even get me started on LAVs running you down. If you had more urban maps it would help.


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