DUST Search - Should tanks be win-buttons or cheap throw-aways

CharCharOdell wrote:

1) A win-button that is so prohibitively expensive SP (20 mil SP to reach god mode) and ISK wise (20 mil/tank) that they would only be seen in the biggest, most important battles, piloted by the most elite tankers against the most elite tankers, fighting for the richest corporations in New Eden.
a. these would be almost unkillable by anything short of a full squad of proto AV or another tank of the same calibre- im talking 18,000 HP, cannons that do ~4000 damage/second, and reppers that heal 1000 HP/s for thirty seconds, with the ability to have 70% resistance modules on for a minute straight...WITH ONE MODULE.
b. these would be the most expensive things anyone can buy short of a clone pack or an MCC. They would cost more than 2 cruisers in EVE. They would be so expensive that if one was brought into a pub and got destroyed by another tanker or a FULL squad of AV, that mercenary would have to play 80 games to earn it back.
c. there would be no room for specializing in anything else to use these tanks. They would take 20 million SP to use to their full potential, so there could realistically be less than 5 people in the game with these, anytime soon, as of now.


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Terra Thesis HDYLTA Defiant Legacy 339	Posted - 2013.07.11 13:08:00 - [1] - Quote CharCharOdell wrote: 1) A win-button that is so prohibitively expensive SP (20 mil SP to reach god mode) and ISK wise (20 mil/tank) that they would only be seen in the biggest, most important battles, piloted by the most elite tankers against the most elite tankers, fighting for the richest corporations in New Eden. a. these would be almost unkillable by anything short of a full squad of proto AV or another tank of the same calibre- im talking 18,000 HP, cannons that do ~4000 damage/second, and reppers that heal 1000 HP/s for thirty seconds, with the ability to have 70% resistance modules on for a minute straight...WITH ONE MODULE. b. these would be the most expensive things anyone can buy short of a clone pack or an MCC. They would cost more than 2 cruisers in EVE. They would be so expensive that if one was brought into a pub and got destroyed by another tanker or a FULL squad of AV, that mercenary would have to play 80 games to earn it back. c. there would be no room for specializing in anything else to use these tanks. They would take 20 million SP to use to their full potential, so there could realistically be less than 5 people in the game with these, anytime soon, as of now. Ugh... no, no, no. You're ignoring all the basics. Don't you think pubstomping is already bad enough? You don't make an exclusive little pubstomp club for yourself, because the pubbies aren't gonna stick around and let you jack off all day on them. It'll just be you standing around stroking your uber-HAV all by yourself. God modes / win buttons are dumb. Basic game design. And you can't balance things with mega ridiculous grinds. Grinding out 20m SP doesn't make you "elite" in any way whatsoever. It's not the 90s, we're not rewarding players for being unemployed anymore. Making the tanks crazy expensive does nothing unless they're a reasonable chance they could be destroyed. You're still trying to turn a death machine into a safe isk printing factory. All you're accomplishing is you're making everyone go through a really dumb grind before they get into their safe little isk printers. You'll still have matches full of tanks, except there will be even more red line as people try to protect their investments. It'll be 16v16 afk redline tanks. HAVs should go as follows. "Your HAV forces, when supported by infantry, are the most fearsome fighting force in the universe. We know this kind of power does not come free. Every conquered district means many lost HAVs. Very few can afford to use this kind of power. But we are incredibly rich and we are willing to pay you." It should not be like this: "Oh, gee, it's 10am. I guess it's time to go into my 24/7 isk grinder and grind some more isk today against all the other 24/7 isk grinders. We'll pretend to fight, but in the end, really we'll earn lots of isk together."
Terra Thesis HDYLTA Defiant Legacy 339	Posted - 2013.07.11 13:59:00 - [2] - Quote nothing in the game should be safe except the free starter fits. the bigger the **** you want to pull out, the more it should cost you match after match. proto should just give you an edge when all that matters is winning. you should not be using it to stomp for profit. PRO suits can be popped by STD guns, and PRO tanks should not be immune to STD AV. stop trying to make HAVs safe and affordable.
Terra Thesis HDYLTA Defiant Legacy 339	Posted - 2013.07.11 14:51:00 - [3] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: I specced into my STD HAVs the way you specced into your STD AR. What makes your AR so special and my HAV so pathetic that it is a practical impossibility (except for a rare, exceptional few) to run a profit running it? Why is it that your SP is so much more valuable than mine that just because you specced into something means you should be able to run it profitably and mine, which is far more SP intensive to make remotelyeffective, should not? our SP is worth the exact same. you just simply invested it into something clearly intended to be a prestige weapon. but you're comparing the biggest, baddest weapon system in dust against the free weapon you get in your starter fit and asking to make it just as affordable?
Terra Thesis HDYLTA Defiant Legacy 339	Posted - 2013.07.11 16:55:00 - [4] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Ye but how many milita does it take to kill proto? Like its around 3 std AV to kill basic vehicle So proto vehicle would take 3 proto AV it takes about 2 good STD AV to kill a good STD HAV. i think that's about right. ADV AV is about 20-25% more powerful so ADV HAV should be about 20-25%% stronger. and then PRO should be another 20-25% on top. so PRO should be about 50% stronger, which means it should take about 2 PRO AV, 2.5 ADV AV, or 3 STD AV to kill. this idea that "my PRO tank requires PRO AV to kill" is so wrong. PRO doesn't mean you get to ignore all those gross unwashed STD players. it should be mainly about tactics, not about how much free time you had in the last 6 months. you let 3 dudes sneak up on your solo tank with no support, you should die... regardless of who has how much sp or isk.
Terra Thesis HDYLTA Defiant Legacy 339	Posted - 2013.07.11 18:02:00 - [5] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Nope 3 proto AV to kill proto HAV Im not going to let 3 std AV kill a proto HAV what would be the point of that? 1 proto AV could still solo that proto HAV so it wouldnt be an upgrade Just stick to running infantry the point is PRO is not a comfy blanket of safety where you grind for 12 months and then you no longer have to worry about danger. welcome to 2013, we don't balance by grinding anymore. you can have 5 billion sp, your tank should still be killable. if you don't want to be killed by 3 skilled std av, instead of whining about how much elite SP you have, just use a little skill and effort and don't sit still in one spot while 3 dudes set up nanohives all around you.
Terra Thesis HDYLTA Defiant Legacy 339	Posted - 2013.07.11 18:31:00 - [6] - Quote kiarbanor wrote: one for forge guns being charged up as a forge gunner on one character and vehicle pilot on another, i am very much in favor of map wide visibility of a charged forge canon. forge gunners should not be stealthily sniping from across the map. you pull the trigger, your signature should spike through the stratosphere.
Terra Thesis HDYLTA Defiant Legacy 340	Posted - 2013.07.12 12:32:00 - [7] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Yes it is If i bring out proto tank and the pub match enemies all have milita AV then i will be king, it will take the entire team to kill it or if i screw up Well then... good luck with your game where you're invincible and people log on errday for the honor of getting beat up by you, our king. Sounds like if someone ever makes a game like that it will be superfun.
Terra Thesis HDYLTA Defiant Legacy 340	Posted - 2013.07.12 13:39:00 - [8] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Thanks I was king back in the early days with proto dropsuits and ARs but no complained because AR514 oh, are you saying you could not be killed with std weapons in your pro suit? which game was this?
Terra Thesis HDYLTA Defiant Legacy 341	Posted - 2013.07.12 14:27:00 - [9] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Yea pretty much Could take on a bunch of ppl, you had to be in proto to get me down LOL... you're so distracted by an uncontrollable compulsion to brag about how elite you are, you don't realize you just proved my point. if you have any skill, you have nothing to worry about. you don't need to use sp as a crutch. we crush bad players with our exiles all day. PRO doesn't change anything.
Terra Thesis HDYLTA Defiant Legacy 343	Posted - 2013.07.12 18:11:00 - [10] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: If we get advanced/proto that would stop and all these solo proto AV would be screwed I'm not sure why we are arguing about, because i agree.

Terra Thesis HDYLTA Defiant Legacy 344	Posted - 2013.07.13 12:10:00 - [11] - Quote CharCharOdell wrote: So how come when an exile goes 25:0 it's skill, but when a tanker does it, he's OP? first of all, the majority of the targets out there are ARs, so if one of them gets 25/0 with an exile, he's either skilled or extremely lucky. it's not like he blew up 25 tanks. secondly, i didn't say tanks are op. imho they are either a little UP or possibly just plain old P. but i don't think we will know until PRO tanks are released. right now STD tanks are falling to ADV and PRO AV and it's distorting everyone's perceptions of the tank balance. priority 1: release PRO marauders, then reevaluate.