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Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax. CRONOS.
2286
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 18:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Blam! wrote:Let me expand on the ground cam, and general aiming camera status.
I do in fact plan on putting in a ground camera when we are able to release our Bomber variant of the dropship, and we have been playing around with ideas on whether or not we allow passengers to use modules shared by a vehicle. There's positives and negatives for both and a bit of design logistics to take care of there.
The aiming camera on the dropship is also being worked on in general. I want to enable the camera to be more responsive to players' direct input while still allowing the camera to gently and seamlessly ease back to its neutral position when no input is provided (in case you were wondering, the reason for the ease is so that players don't have to fumble by manually moving it back to the neutral position). These improvements require code fixes that I am working directly with a programmer on (alas Blam! is a Game Designer ;) ) I noticed that there were still some people who weren't aware of this, so I'm making a thread devoted to it.
I can't fathom of why putting bombs on a Dropship, which I imagine will again result in a reduced passenger count, just like the ADS, and possibly even having less gunners, would be a good idea, especially as far as trying to provide any semblance of balance for the Dropship roles we have right now.
As someone who used to love piloting them back in Codex (spent most of Chromosome skilling into random stuff and being broke), the solution to providing Dropship pilots with something to do with their vehicles is not giving them a new role that let's them drop bombs.
Also, if nothing else, you're putting bombs on a vehicle that can hover in midair over an objective?
Really?
Further, I realize people will talk about how easy Dropships are to kill, so this couldn't be abused, but consider the DevBlog that was just released today.
Look at the amount of ISK Corporations are willing to put into capturing and holding Districts.
Do you honestly think they would even bat an eye about putting 2-3 of those things up in the air and using them to blap groups of infantry going near their objectives, no matter how much they get shot down? If anything, forcing the enemy team to switch to AV to try and kill the damn things will just make the work easier for your infantry.
On the subject of Fighters, deploying bombs has traditionally been the function of "fixed-wing aircraft" or "jets" in virtually every game I've seen them in.
The issue I see with putting bombs on Dropships is that that might be the start of a decision chain that leads to Fighters and other aircraft of that type being air-to-air only, like how Dice tried to design the jets in Battlefield 3.
Let us not forget that military aircraft were initially developed as a means of supporting ground forces, and continue to have that as their primary role to this day. Having a Fighter that can only shoot at other Fighters is annoying, but can be tolerated in a game that spawns vehicles at regular intervals for free.
What about Dust? Do you really think any Corporation is going to want to deploy an asset that's completely worthless for infantry support?
I don't see this ending well, even with considerable thought on the subject. The deployment of an asset like this seems to me to have the potential to release what will undoubtedly be the new flavor-of-the-month spam tactic, while leaving those of us who are looking to Spec into Fighters with an asset that no one will want us to use.
And current Dropship pilots still get the shaft when all is said and done.
Prioritize making the current Dropship roles rewarding, and especially giving points for transport and spawning, and you'll have a lot more happy Dropship pilots and infantry. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax. CRONOS.
2290
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 18:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
Bump. |
Cy Clone1
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
66
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 18:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
how can I find the original statement?
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Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax. CRONOS.
2290
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 18:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
Cy Clone1 wrote:how can I find the original statement?
Go to Dev Posts and search "Bomber". |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
988
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 18:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
I don't necessarily think that making dropships bomb would obsolete fighters, since fighters would be needed to protect friendly transportation and destroy enemy bombers. I also don't think bf3 made it jets anti air only, since 2 of the missile types are best for fighting ground vehicles and the actual gun is universally effective. |
Cy Clone1
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
66
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Cy Clone1 wrote:how can I find the original statement?
Go to Dev Posts and search "Bomber".
thanks |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax. CRONOS.
2292
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
Vermaak Doe wrote:I don't necessarily think that making dropships bomb would obsolete fighters, since fighters would be needed to protect friendly transportation and destroy enemy bombers. I also don't think bf3 made it jets anti air only, since 2 of the missile types are best for fighting ground vehicles and the actual gun is universally effective. For my part, I think this represents moving in the direction of making more roles out of the same asset as opposed to making other assets or fixing the roles we have right now.
As far as bombs themselves, giving them to a vehicle that can hover, and thus completely remove the need to judge bombing runs in order to make them effective, seems a bit too faceroll to me.
I mean, if you consider the fact that a bomb, by its very nature, is a splash-damage based weapon, I think requiring the pilot to use an aircraft that can't hover, and thus requires him to calculate the trajectory of the weapon in order to use it properly, is going to be essential in ensuring we can have such a weapon without also having another riot on our hands. |
ladwar
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
788
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:15:00 -
[8] - Quote
they should just make a bomber rather then fitting a DS to be a bomber. other bombers have tail gunner as well as front and wing gunners(old WWII models which are the popular models for games to copy) or the present day ones with frontal cannons without side gunners/tail. the DS don't fit because side gunners are a must on them but no room for a tail. |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
988
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote:I don't necessarily think that making dropships bomb would obsolete fighters, since fighters would be needed to protect friendly transportation and destroy enemy bombers. I also don't think bf3 made it jets anti air only, since 2 of the missile types are best for fighting ground vehicles and the actual gun is universally effective. For my part, I think this represents moving in the direction of making more roles out of the same asset as opposed to making other assets or fixing the roles we have right now. As far as bombs themselves, giving them to a vehicle that can hover, and thus completely remove the need to judge bombing runs in order to make them effective, seems a bit too faceroll to me. I mean, if you consider the fact that a bomb, by its very nature, is a splash-damage based weapon, I think requiring the pilot to use an aircraft that can't hover, and thus requires him to calculate the trajectory of the weapon in order to use it properly, is going to be essential in ensuring we can have such a weapon without also having another riot on our hands. I doubt that people would stay in the line of fire if they noticed a bomber dropship (which I assume will have a unique color scheme). I could also see some kind of restriction that has bombs only drop while the dropship is moving forward, as unlikely as it seems. |
loumanchew
Ametat Security Amarr Empire
101
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:21:00 -
[10] - Quote
We already have 2 types of ships that are completely useless, expensive to run and non rewarding. Why oh why more content when the current content isnt even finished or balanced yet? |
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Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax. CRONOS.
2295
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:23:00 -
[11] - Quote
ladwar wrote:they should just make a bomber rather then fitting a DS to be a bomber. other bombers have tail gunner as well as front and wing gunners(old WWII models which are the popular models for games to copy) or the present day ones with frontal cannons without side gunners/tail. the DS don't fit because side(not wing) gunners are a must on them but no room for a tail.
and on an off topic rant, STOP SCRIPTED LIKES!!!! The days of the "Strategic Bomber" are pretty much gone. My country is currently continuing to downscale its force of B-52s, for instance.
I think the Fighters, despite their name, will be able to fill this role just fine. You rarely see the use of larger bomber aircraft due to the prevalence of anti-air, and with the confirmation that Destroyer HAVs are coming as a dedicated AA vehicle, I think large bombers like you're thinking of would likely just get killed more than the Dropships we have right now.
Also, all our aircraft are VTOL and have to be sized so RDVs can carry them. Imagine an RDV trying to carry something the size of a B-29. The dumb thing would just keep smacking the aircraft into thing until it exploded.
loumanchew wrote:We already have 2 types of ships that are completely useless, expensive to run and non rewarding. Why oh why more content when the current content isnt even finished or balanced yet? Exactly!
If you want to make Dropship pilots happy, let them be useful in their current roles, don't add more while keeping the others broken. |
Foundation Seldon
Gespenster Kompanie Villore Accords
41
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:25:00 -
[12] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:[quote=CCP Blam!] Further, I realize people will talk about how easy Dropships are to kill, so this couldn't be abused, but consider the DevBlog that was just released today.
Look at the amount of ISK Corporations are willing to put into capturing and holding Districts.
Do you honestly think they would even bat an eye about putting 2-3 of those things up in the air and using them to blap groups of infantry going near their objectives, no matter how much they get shot down? If anything, forcing the enemy team to switch to AV to try and kill the damn things will just make the work easier for your infantry.
It's not a matter of whether or not they'd bat an eye to readily deploy X amount of dropships it's how effective they would be once deployed. A corp can throw out as many dropships as they want but if the opposing team has any number of Forge Gunners or Rail Tanks at their disposal then doing so would just be a waste of time and resources. Dropships, in their current form, simply aren't worth deploying on any battlefield in any situation outside of getting Uplinks deployed in high positions. If I'm a corp leader who has the choices between deploying 5 dropships or 5 tanks at any given time you can bet I'll be going with the choice that gives me the most bang for my buck and with Rail type weapons the way they are right now going the dropship route would just be the equivalent of feeding the enemy team free SP.
I really think you're making a big deal out of nothing, call me when Forges / Rail Tanks are addressed and Dropships have some means to redirect swarm fire and we can talk about the effectiveness of a Dropship type we still know next to nothing about. |
Serimos Haeraven
Deep Space Republic Top Men.
206
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
Oh CCP Blam... seeing this disheartens me more than anything i have seen before from CCP. His reply to my request about dropship updates didn't have any plans for bombers at all, and they said they would immediately work on the WP issue FIRST. Seriously, Logistic dropships are being left in the... dust. |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
990
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:29:00 -
[14] - Quote
Also bombs don't conflict air to ground type weapons if their advantages amd disadvantages are prevalent. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax. CRONOS.
2298
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:30:00 -
[15] - Quote
Foundation Seldon wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:CCP Blam! wrote: Further, I realize people will talk about how easy Dropships are to kill, so this couldn't be abused, but consider the DevBlog that was just released today.
Look at the amount of ISK Corporations are willing to put into capturing and holding Districts.
Do you honestly think they would even bat an eye about putting 2-3 of those things up in the air and using them to blap groups of infantry going near their objectives, no matter how much they get shot down? If anything, forcing the enemy team to switch to AV to try and kill the damn things will just make the work easier for your infantry.
It's not a matter of whether or not they'd bat an eye to readily deploy X amount of dropships it's how effective they would be once deployed. A corp can throw out as many dropships as they want but if the opposing team has any number of Forge Gunners or Rail Tanks at their disposal then doing so would just be a waste of time and resources. Dropships, in their current form, simply aren't worth deploying on any battlefield in any situation outside of getting Uplinks deployed in high positions. If I'm a corp leader who has the choices between deploying 5 dropships or 5 tanks at any given time you can bet I'll be going with the choice that gives me the most bang for my buck and with Rail type weapons the way they are right now going the dropship route would just be the equivalent of feeding the enemy team free SP. I really think you're making a big deal out of nothing, call me when Forges / Rail Tanks are addressed and Dropships have some means to redirect swarm fire and we can talk about the effectiveness of a Dropship type we still know next to nothing about. Imagine putting 5 in the air, flying them up to the Flight Ceiling, and parking them in midair over those HAVs and Forge Gunners. If you want them to only carry bombs, you can leave the default turrets on them and fit nothing but defensive modules. You'd live more than long enough to throw out a few bombs before going down, and at that point you've likely pasted all infantry in the local area.
Vermaak Doe wrote:Also bombs don't conflict air to ground type weapons if their advantages amd disadvantages are prevalent. Sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to say here.
Serimos Haeraven wrote:Oh CCP Blam... seeing this disheartens me more than anything i have seen before from CCP. His reply to my request about dropship updates didn't have any plans for bombers at all, and they said they would immediately work on the WP issue FIRST. Seriously, Logistic dropships are being left in the... dust. I'd honestly love to be able to use them as transports, which is what I preferred doing in the past. I really hope they're still working on that. |
Skihids
Bullet Cluster
1715
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:37:00 -
[16] - Quote
I've mentioned several times that the dropship needs a few viable support roles, and adding another slaying role with the bomber variant is not a good substitute.
I arrive at this position from seeing what happens when a vehicle becomes an effective infantry killer. The mass of players who run on the ground immediately cry for a nerf and eventually get one, further eroding the utility of the vehicle. On the other hand support roles generally get left alone. Aside from the case of Caldari Logis being used as assault fits the majority of infantry players are happy to let logis earn WP's in exchange for their services.
Yes, give the dropship both active and passive defenses and let it perform some close air support, but don't make that the only thing they are good for or the 99.9% of players who are non dropship pilots will rise up and castrate the dropship again.
Give us pilots something interesting to do. Something that benefits our team without necessarily competing with them for kills. Make it something that we can do the entire match, not just an initial transport or drop uplink deployment.
Make it player skill intensive so we can be proud of how well we get the mission done. Pilots are proud of their skill and don't want just anyone to be able to do what they can with no training or practice.
I know that request is a lot more difficult to fulfill than creating a bomber because it involves other systems or the creation of whole new match types that don't depend entirely on DPS to win. I don't expect it in any version of Uprising, but I would love to know what plans if any CCP has in this area. |
low genius
The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance
159
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:37:00 -
[17] - Quote
you're making like 10 threads devoted to it. at least this trash is in general discussion, i guess. |
Foundation Seldon
Gespenster Kompanie Villore Accords
41
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:39:00 -
[18] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Foundation Seldon wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:CCP Blam! wrote: Further, I realize people will talk about how easy Dropships are to kill, so this couldn't be abused, but consider the DevBlog that was just released today.
Look at the amount of ISK Corporations are willing to put into capturing and holding Districts.
Do you honestly think they would even bat an eye about putting 2-3 of those things up in the air and using them to blap groups of infantry going near their objectives, no matter how much they get shot down? If anything, forcing the enemy team to switch to AV to try and kill the damn things will just make the work easier for your infantry.
It's not a matter of whether or not they'd bat an eye to readily deploy X amount of dropships it's how effective they would be once deployed. A corp can throw out as many dropships as they want but if the opposing team has any number of Forge Gunners or Rail Tanks at their disposal then doing so would just be a waste of time and resources. Dropships, in their current form, simply aren't worth deploying on any battlefield in any situation outside of getting Uplinks deployed in high positions. If I'm a corp leader who has the choices between deploying 5 dropships or 5 tanks at any given time you can bet I'll be going with the choice that gives me the most bang for my buck and with Rail type weapons the way they are right now going the dropship route would just be the equivalent of feeding the enemy team free SP. I really think you're making a big deal out of nothing, call me when Forges / Rail Tanks are addressed and Dropships have some means to redirect swarm fire and we can talk about the effectiveness of a Dropship type we still know next to nothing about. Imagine putting 5 in the air, flying them up to the Flight Ceiling, and parking them in midair over those HAVs and Forge Gunners. If you want them to only carry bombs, you can leave the default turrets on them and fit nothing but defensive modules. You'd live more than long enough to throw out a few bombs before going down, and at that point you've likely pasted all infantry in the local area.
Again, we're making assumptions about a vehicle variation we literally know next to nothing about, if/when a situation occurs where Dropship pilots are able to bomb from the heavens out of range from both Forges and Rails you'll have my and others support when calling in balance concerns. At this point though there's no reason to believe such a scenario would ever come light, there's no reason to assume for example that the bombs would have unlimited range and be able to hit people on the ground from the height of the ceiling.
This conversation is more or less a moot talking point. |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
991
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:41:00 -
[19] - Quote
I mean that fighters could still perform against ground vehicles using another weapon type without making bomber dropships useless, if CCP did decide to include this "fighter bomber" variant, it should differ heavily from the bomber dropship so that neither becomes useless. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax. CRONOS.
2299
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:47:00 -
[20] - Quote
Vermaak Doe wrote:I mean that fighters could still perform against ground vehicles using another weapon type without making bomber dropships useless, if CCP did decide to include this "fighter bomber" variant, it should differ heavily from the bomber dropship so that neither becomes useless. I'm saying scrap the idea of a bomber dropship entirely.
I don't even know where the idea came from, to be honest. There were quite a few people requesting a pilot-controlled turret, and they delivered on that. I don't recall many people asking to be able to strap bombs onto their transport aircraft.
I also think this what we could really use is some form of dedicated VTOL Gunship, and not just a Dropship with a turret on the front. I think if you give proper bonuses to Dropship pilots for the roles they fill right now, you won't have any complaints.
I'm coming at this from the standpoint that as a pilot, I'd like to see more asset variety like we've already been shown we'll have with ground vehicles, rather than a forest of Dropship variants. |
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Skihids
Bullet Cluster
1715
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:53:00 -
[21] - Quote
I'd like to see the justification for a bomb that can't fall all the way to the ground. That would be the most ludicrous way to limit the effectiveness of a bomber. Uh sorry, your bomb fell too far so it disabled itself!
The real limit would be in targeting accuracy. Those who actually fly know how small and indistinct targets appear from the flight celling. The pilot would need a ground spotter to be effective without a high zoom. Actually a bomber should have a variable zoom predictive bomb sight. They were invented decades ago and I can't see the idea being lost.
I really hope we don't end up with a cross-hair bombsight that is fixed 90 degrees from the bottom of the ship in such a way that a small bit of roll makes it useless for aiming. At the very least it should point directly below the ship no matter its orientation so we know where the bombs will fall. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax. CRONOS.
2303
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:55:00 -
[22] - Quote
Skihids wrote:I'd like to see the justification for a bomb that can't fall all the way to the ground. That would be the most ludicrous way to limit the effectiveness of a bomber. Uh sorry, your bomb fell too far so it disabled itself!
The real limit would be in targeting accuracy. Those who actually fly know how small and indistinct targets appear from the flight celling. The pilot would need a ground spotter to be effective without a high zoom. Actually a bomber should have a variable zoom predictive bomb sight. They were invented decades ago and I can't see the idea being lost.
I really hope we don't end up with a cross-hair bombsight that is fixed 90 degrees from the bottom of the ship in such a way that a small bit of roll makes it useless for aiming. At the very least it should point directly below the ship no matter its orientation so we know where the bombs will fall. Again, why have bombs on a Dropship at all? Why not put them on an aircraft that would make more sense to use them, and give pilots more options than the latest Dropship re-color? |
Skihids
Bullet Cluster
1715
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
Dropships aren't the only vehicles suffering from a lack of viable missions. Take the LLAV for example. Its original purpose was to support ground troops and it's got a wicked good remote repper, but it's the current scourge of infantry because the module is terrible to use and gives no reward.
There seems to be a general lack of interest on CCP's part to integrate vehicles into general play in a meaningful way. |
Skihids
Bullet Cluster
1715
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 20:00:00 -
[24] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Skihids wrote:I'd like to see the justification for a bomb that can't fall all the way to the ground. That would be the most ludicrous way to limit the effectiveness of a bomber. Uh sorry, your bomb fell too far so it disabled itself!
The real limit would be in targeting accuracy. Those who actually fly know how small and indistinct targets appear from the flight celling. The pilot would need a ground spotter to be effective without a high zoom. Actually a bomber should have a variable zoom predictive bomb sight. They were invented decades ago and I can't see the idea being lost.
I really hope we don't end up with a cross-hair bombsight that is fixed 90 degrees from the bottom of the ship in such a way that a small bit of roll makes it useless for aiming. At the very least it should point directly below the ship no matter its orientation so we know where the bombs will fall. Again, why have bombs on a Dropship at all? Why not put them on an aircraft that would make more sense to use them, and give pilots more options than the latest Dropship re-color?
Oh, I agree with you. If we are going to get it anyway I just don't want to see it delivered hopelessly broken. We don't need one more temptation for new players to throw away hard earned SP and ISK on junk only to quit DUST in frustration. |
Foundation Seldon
Gespenster Kompanie Villore Accords
44
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 20:01:00 -
[25] - Quote
Skihids wrote:I'd like to see the justification for a bomb that can't fall all the way to the ground. That would be the most ludicrous way to limit the effectiveness of a bomber. Uh sorry, your bomb fell too far so it disabled itself!
There doesn't need to be any other justification other than preserving the balance of the game, this is assuming there's a problem with bombers potentially finding themselves in a position where they can effectively attack infantry out of range from Forges / Rails.
Quote:The real limit would be in targeting accuracy. Those who actually fly know how small and indistinct targets appear from the flight celling. The pilot would need a ground spotter to be effective without a high zoom. Actually a bomber should have a variable zoom predictive bomb sight. They were invented decades ago and I can't see the idea being lost.
I really hope we don't end up with a cross-hair bombsight that is fixed 90 degrees from the bottom of the ship in such a way that a small bit of roll makes it useless for aiming. At the very least it should point directly below the ship no matter its orientation so we know where the bombs will fall.
I agree with this. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax. CRONOS.
2303
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 20:02:00 -
[26] - Quote
Skihids wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Skihids wrote:I'd like to see the justification for a bomb that can't fall all the way to the ground. That would be the most ludicrous way to limit the effectiveness of a bomber. Uh sorry, your bomb fell too far so it disabled itself!
The real limit would be in targeting accuracy. Those who actually fly know how small and indistinct targets appear from the flight celling. The pilot would need a ground spotter to be effective without a high zoom. Actually a bomber should have a variable zoom predictive bomb sight. They were invented decades ago and I can't see the idea being lost.
I really hope we don't end up with a cross-hair bombsight that is fixed 90 degrees from the bottom of the ship in such a way that a small bit of roll makes it useless for aiming. At the very least it should point directly below the ship no matter its orientation so we know where the bombs will fall. Again, why have bombs on a Dropship at all? Why not put them on an aircraft that would make more sense to use them, and give pilots more options than the latest Dropship re-color? Oh, I agree with you. If we are going to get it anyway I just don't want to see it delivered hopelessly broken. We don't need one more temptation for new players to throw away hard earned SP and ISK on junk only to quit DUST in frustration. Agreed. I mean, just imagine what's going to happen when the Caldari Logistics suits get fixed. |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
991
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 20:03:00 -
[27] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote:I mean that fighters could still perform against ground vehicles using another weapon type without making bomber dropships useless, if CCP did decide to include this "fighter bomber" variant, it should differ heavily from the bomber dropship so that neither becomes useless. I'm saying scrap the idea of a bomber dropship entirely. I don't even know where the idea came from, to be honest. There were quite a few people requesting a pilot-controlled turret, and they delivered on that. I don't recall many people asking to be able to strap bombs onto their transport aircraft. I also think this what we could really use is some form of dedicated VTOL Gunship, and not just a Dropship with a turret on the front. I think if you give proper bonuses to Dropship pilots for the roles they fill right now, you won't have any complaints. I'm coming at this from the standpoint that as a pilot, I'd like to see more asset variety like we've already been shown we'll have with ground vehicles, rather than a forest of Dropship variants. I think that the assault and bomber variants are merely placeholders until the light and heavy air vehicles are added, since the assault dropship would conflict a gunship, making the ADS useless because of the higher firepower and tank that the gunship should have. Also, a fighter would be much more suited for bombing since to do so properly requires getting in and out fast so the bomber isn't put at risk. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax. CRONOS.
2305
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 20:11:00 -
[28] - Quote
Vermaak Doe wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote:I mean that fighters could still perform against ground vehicles using another weapon type without making bomber dropships useless, if CCP did decide to include this "fighter bomber" variant, it should differ heavily from the bomber dropship so that neither becomes useless. I'm saying scrap the idea of a bomber dropship entirely. I don't even know where the idea came from, to be honest. There were quite a few people requesting a pilot-controlled turret, and they delivered on that. I don't recall many people asking to be able to strap bombs onto their transport aircraft. I also think this what we could really use is some form of dedicated VTOL Gunship, and not just a Dropship with a turret on the front. I think if you give proper bonuses to Dropship pilots for the roles they fill right now, you won't have any complaints. I'm coming at this from the standpoint that as a pilot, I'd like to see more asset variety like we've already been shown we'll have with ground vehicles, rather than a forest of Dropship variants. I think that the assault and bomber variants are merely placeholders until the light and heavy air vehicles are added, since the assault dropship would conflict a gunship, making the ADS useless because of the higher firepower and tank that the gunship should have. Also, a fighter would be much more suited for bombing since to do so properly requires getting in and out fast so the bomber isn't put at risk. Honestly, if we're eventually going to be able to fire out of Dropships, as has been suggested, the Assault Dropship would still be a fine aircraft.
Honestly, even without being able to shoot from it, you figure you get the pilot turret, the two gunners, and maybe a pair of HMG Heavies to drop on a contested point while you strafe from above means that vehicle would still be a potent asset.
Also consider that a Gunship would be smaller, and thus more mobile, but also have less hitpoints. |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
1000
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 20:22:00 -
[29] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote:I mean that fighters could still perform against ground vehicles using another weapon type without making bomber dropships useless, if CCP did decide to include this "fighter bomber" variant, it should differ heavily from the bomber dropship so that neither becomes useless. I'm saying scrap the idea of a bomber dropship entirely. I don't even know where the idea came from, to be honest. There were quite a few people requesting a pilot-controlled turret, and they delivered on that. I don't recall many people asking to be able to strap bombs onto their transport aircraft. I also think this what we could really use is some form of dedicated VTOL Gunship, and not just a Dropship with a turret on the front. I think if you give proper bonuses to Dropship pilots for the roles they fill right now, you won't have any complaints. I'm coming at this from the standpoint that as a pilot, I'd like to see more asset variety like we've already been shown we'll have with ground vehicles, rather than a forest of Dropship variants. I think that the assault and bomber variants are merely placeholders until the light and heavy air vehicles are added, since the assault dropship would conflict a gunship, making the ADS useless because of the higher firepower and tank that the gunship should have. Also, a fighter would be much more suited for bombing since to do so properly requires getting in and out fast so the bomber isn't put at risk. Honestly, if we're eventually going to be able to fire out of Dropships, as has been suggested, the Assault Dropship would still be a fine aircraft. Honestly, even without being able to shoot from it, you figure you get the pilot turret, the two gunners, and maybe a pair of HMG Heavies to drop on a contested point while you strafe from above means that vehicle would still be a potent asset. Also consider that a Gunship would be smaller, and thus more mobile, but also have less hitpoints.
Well there's always the possibility for a gunship to go into an attack helicopter style role or more of a heavy air support vehicle like an Ac130 so I won't delve too much into that but I see 2 gunners and a well rounded group of four as a bit more valuable than the setup an Ads can do. I could see the Ads shining at supporting small groups, which was a more valuable attribute before squad sizes were raised. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax. CRONOS.
2330
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 20:30:00 -
[30] - Quote
Vermaak Doe wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote:I mean that fighters could still perform against ground vehicles using another weapon type without making bomber dropships useless, if CCP did decide to include this "fighter bomber" variant, it should differ heavily from the bomber dropship so that neither becomes useless. I'm saying scrap the idea of a bomber dropship entirely. I don't even know where the idea came from, to be honest. There were quite a few people requesting a pilot-controlled turret, and they delivered on that. I don't recall many people asking to be able to strap bombs onto their transport aircraft. I also think this what we could really use is some form of dedicated VTOL Gunship, and not just a Dropship with a turret on the front. I think if you give proper bonuses to Dropship pilots for the roles they fill right now, you won't have any complaints. I'm coming at this from the standpoint that as a pilot, I'd like to see more asset variety like we've already been shown we'll have with ground vehicles, rather than a forest of Dropship variants. I think that the assault and bomber variants are merely placeholders until the light and heavy air vehicles are added, since the assault dropship would conflict a gunship, making the ADS useless because of the higher firepower and tank that the gunship should have. Also, a fighter would be much more suited for bombing since to do so properly requires getting in and out fast so the bomber isn't put at risk. Honestly, if we're eventually going to be able to fire out of Dropships, as has been suggested, the Assault Dropship would still be a fine aircraft. Honestly, even without being able to shoot from it, you figure you get the pilot turret, the two gunners, and maybe a pair of HMG Heavies to drop on a contested point while you strafe from above means that vehicle would still be a potent asset. Also consider that a Gunship would be smaller, and thus more mobile, but also have less hitpoints. Well there's always the possibility for a gunship to go into an attack helicopter style role or more of a heavy air support vehicle like an Ac130 so I won't delve too much into that but I see 2 gunners and a well rounded group of four as a bit more valuable than the setup an Ads can do. I could see the Ads shining at supporting small groups, which was a more valuable attribute before squad sizes were raised. It can still fill a role with new assets released, though it may need some tweaking.
I would LOVE to see a large variety of aircraft to choose from in the future, but there are of course more important things to be worked on right now.
That said, I don't think focusing on those more important things should come at the cost of potential imbalance or shafting pilots any more than we already have been. |
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TEXA5 HiTM4N
ROGUE SPADES EoN.
88
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 06:50:00 -
[31] - Quote
I think we should stop giving feedback to blam and wolfman. they always ignore us and give us something no one asked for. At least foxfour and his team listen. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax. CRONOS.
2402
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 07:26:00 -
[32] - Quote
TEXA5 HiTM4N wrote:I think we should stop giving feedback to blam and wolfman. they always ignore us and give us something no one asked for. At least foxfour and his team listen. Cutting off the feedback won't help anything, man.
If anything, that might make this even more likely to go the way I fear. |
Aizen Intiki
Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack
133
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 07:34:00 -
[33] - Quote
And HAV's have another Dropship problem; they can already hover us and fire down on us, this is just stupid |
Dr Allopathy
Raging Pack of Homos
120
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 07:44:00 -
[34] - Quote
I don't see how it's an issue.
People won't mind Caldari redline tanks sniping BDS to hell.
edit:Aizen Intiki wrote:And HAV's have another Dropship problem; they can already hover us and fire down on us, this is just stupid
If you can't take it down through teamwork or maneuvering, then you should work on your driving. |
2-Ton Twenty-One
Internal Error. League of Infamy
693
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 09:04:00 -
[35] - Quote
I feel the way of thinking of DS is wrong, instead we should think of them by their air class. really a dropship is just a LAV by a dif name, expanding the roles it can perform I don't feel is a bad option especially with how much SP already has to be invested with them.
I would say when looking to the future we should think of them more like drop suits. And the Drop ship version of a air vech should be the Logi suit of the air. able to do a little bit of everything.
I don't feel adding options to it now is taking away from options in the future.
DS need re-balancing VS ground infantry AV that's for sure. But that could also be just because a FG is a hard counter to the fact that we ONLY have dropships and no other air vech. Hitting a fast moving small air vech with a forge gun would be quite difficult. Expessialy if said small air veh can tank a FG round and fly out rep and fly back in.
DS are slow and big so its a easy FG target, other air veh will probably be way smaller single seaters. |
Canari Elphus
Pro Hic Immortalis League of Infamy
173
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 10:21:00 -
[36] - Quote
If memory serves me, the Gallente fighter that they have mocked up will have a hover mode to it so if there is a bomber variant of that then we will still have the same issue.
I still stand by my origional proposal for weapons on fighters.
Create new classes of weapons that would be 'medium' turrets that have less damage but longer range than what tanks currently have.
Pilot - They would be able to cycle between two weapons. - Missiles (choose to equip either dumbfire ground missiles or lock-on swarm-type for AV) - Fixed position front turret (this gives strafing ability but limits the ability to camp)
Gunner - Would have a rotating turret under the craft
The fighters would speed tank so that they dont become hover-mode killers.
Dropships need to be dropships. Their job is to quickly move troops to a forward objective. I think that CCP needs to do a massive rethink on them when they plan on bringing in fighters. Dropships will become extremely important if we get larger maps where you will need them to effectively be able to move from one objective to the next.
Fighters need to be escort/interceptors for dropships and then provide harassment at objectives. The new AA Tank that was proposed would be balance against them at the objective. |
Foxhound Elite
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
274
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 10:44:00 -
[37] - Quote
Yesterday when I was flying my dropship around, one of my squad mates started sounding a bit pressured on comms. He was being charged by a large group of the enemy and was more or less, pinned down. Another of my squad mates went into the fray to help but only ended up pinning himself down too... I knew what had to be done, so I swooped in , parked myself in between the enemy and my squad mates, successfully evacuating them from the entrenching enemy horde, but had been hit by two AV grenades while taking off, ... now we barely made it out alive, seeing as I was flying my assault dropship variant at the time and a third AV grenade would have finished us off (which is a bit ridiculous in my opinion)... long story short, I successfully rescued two of my squad mates from losing their clones and that, not the front-mounted turret being able to one-shot unsuspecting infantry, gave me the most satisfaction in the game so far.
I love flying dropships, ask anyone in my corp; it's what I do. The problem is, I can rarely do this because I'm usually shot down by a railgun tank, buried in the red-line, a single forge gunner (let alone more than one), even swarm launchers are a major threat.
They need to fix the current dropships before adding in new ones. Give them a HP buff, more resistances, make them cheaper,... SOMETHING, for christs sake! I've said this in multiple forum posts already and have yet to hear anything back yet. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy
1917
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 10:58:00 -
[38] - Quote
Ive always had the ideal that until we see numbers, you cant honestly say if something is going to be good or bad. This is just crystal balling something that sounds intriguing and turning it into something awry, making problems where problems dont exist.
If you want advice on making Dropships last, should hit up Internal Error. its interesting to watch an Assault Drop Ship work in thehands of a capable pilot. I highly doubt a specialize dropship that is slow and bulky as it is (not to mention overtly large) is going to replace the role of a fast attack fighter. Fighters will probably be cheap, single man vehicles that cant really take a punch. A flying scout, for instance.
Theyll have their individual playstyles but saying its a fighter pre-nerf is like comparing Scouts to Assault - Assault is better overall but damnit if you can keep up with the sheer speed of the Scout. |
Canari Elphus
Pro Hic Immortalis League of Infamy
174
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 11:24:00 -
[39] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Ive always had the ideal that until we see numbers, you cant honestly say if something is going to be good or bad. This is just crystal balling something that sounds intriguing and turning it into something awry, making problems where problems dont exist.
If you want advice on making Dropships last, should hit up Internal Error. its interesting to watch an Assault Drop Ship work in thehands of a capable pilot. I highly doubt a specialize dropship that is slow and bulky as it is (not to mention overtly large) is going to replace the role of a fast attack fighter. Fighters will probably be cheap, single man vehicles that cant really take a punch. A flying scout, for instance.
Theyll have their individual playstyles but saying its a fighter pre-nerf is like comparing Scouts to Assault - Assault is better overall but damnit if you can keep up with the sheer speed of the Scout.
Not trolling here but have you seen the drawings for the Gal fighter?
Its a two man ship that has front turrets and an underbelly one. It is about the same mass as a HAV and has both standard and hover mode. I highly doubt that they will be cheap at all. I expect them to have about the same pricing as HAVs.
I dont think anyone is complaining about fighters but you have some very experienced people (in this and other games) that are giving advice about how their possible stats and roles before they are implemented. After all of the issues with dropships, people dont want to see another half-baked aerial vehicle. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy
1917
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 14:07:00 -
[40] - Quote
Canari Elphus wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Ive always had the ideal that until we see numbers, you cant honestly say if something is going to be good or bad. This is just crystal balling something that sounds intriguing and turning it into something awry, making problems where problems dont exist.
If you want advice on making Dropships last, should hit up Internal Error. its interesting to watch an Assault Drop Ship work in thehands of a capable pilot. I highly doubt a specialize dropship that is slow and bulky as it is (not to mention overtly large) is going to replace the role of a fast attack fighter. Fighters will probably be cheap, single man vehicles that cant really take a punch. A flying scout, for instance.
Theyll have their individual playstyles but saying its a fighter pre-nerf is like comparing Scouts to Assault - Assault is better overall but damnit if you can keep up with the sheer speed of the Scout. Not trolling here but have you seen the drawings for the Gal fighter? Its a two man ship that has front turrets and an underbelly one. It is about the same mass as a HAV and has both standard and hover mode. I highly doubt that they will be cheap at all. I expect them to have about the same pricing as HAVs. I dont think anyone is complaining about fighters but you have some very experienced people (in this and other games) that are giving advice about how their possible stats and roles before they are implemented. After all of the issues with dropships, people dont want to see another half-baked aerial vehicle.
Yeah, amazingly enough the Plasma Cannon had a holographic sight in the picture but it doesnt have it. Concept art and demo renders are never good sources of information, theyre just that: concept. Andif were using concept as our primary sourceof evidence, the 2009 fanfest vid showed it was a single pilot as far as anyone knew.
Honestly, I think its mostly selfinterested. Assault and Heavies are very similar in role but have unique differences and Imsure the bomber dropshipand the fighter will be as well. |
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TEXA5 HiTM4N
ROGUE SPADES EoN.
90
|
Posted - 2013.07.11 22:18:00 -
[41] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:TEXA5 HiTM4N wrote:I think we should stop giving feedback to blam and wolfman. they always ignore us and give us something no one asked for. At least foxfour and his team listen. Cutting off the feedback won't help anything, man. If anything, that might make this even more likely to go the way I fear.
I agree. I am just fed up with the guys that handle the balance of this game. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax. CRONOS.
2423
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 00:31:00 -
[42] - Quote
TEXA5 HiTM4N wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:TEXA5 HiTM4N wrote:I think we should stop giving feedback to blam and wolfman. they always ignore us and give us something no one asked for. At least foxfour and his team listen. Cutting off the feedback won't help anything, man. If anything, that might make this even more likely to go the way I fear. I agree. I am just fed up with the guys that handle the balance of this game. I'm starting to understand that frustration, but if the new work on Planetary Conquest is any indication, they're really working at trying to improve. |
gbghg
L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION
2612
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 01:13:00 -
[43] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:TEXA5 HiTM4N wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:TEXA5 HiTM4N wrote:I think we should stop giving feedback to blam and wolfman. they always ignore us and give us something no one asked for. At least foxfour and his team listen. Cutting off the feedback won't help anything, man. If anything, that might make this even more likely to go the way I fear. I agree. I am just fed up with the guys that handle the balance of this game. I'm starting to understand that frustration, but if the new work on Planetary Conquest is any indication, they're really working at trying to improve. We know that they're trying to improve thongs it's just we don't see any indication of their work other than stealth nerds or huge changes which they spring on us in updates. Take team true grit as an example, they laid out how PC was going to work, they then created some feedback threads which were absolutely huge, they took our feedback reworked the numbers and threw them back out there, then they listens to our feedback again and made further changes. And them there's the dev blogs, they showed us the changes they were bringing, and they give us plenty of time to read through and look for any bad things or exploits we can use. They don't act like we're looking over their shoulder and throw everything singles thing they think of at us, they take a few ideas they think could work and want feedback on and present them to us to discuss and argue about and make threadnaughts. If the other dev teams like blam!'s one could even be halfway like that I would be infinitely happier. |
CharCharOdell
Shining Flame Amarr Empire
455
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 02:12:00 -
[44] - Quote
i wouldnt worry. it's vehicle, and therefore wont be very usefull |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax. CRONOS.
2425
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 06:23:00 -
[45] - Quote
CharCharOdell wrote:i wouldnt worry. it's vehicle, and therefore wont be very usefull Unlimited free ****** vehicles for everyone.
Instant balance. |
Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire
182
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 06:35:00 -
[46] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote: The days of the "Strategic Bomber" are pretty much gone. My country is currently continuing to downscale its force of B-52s, for instance.
I think the Fighters, despite their name, will be able to fill this role just fine. You rarely see the use of larger bomber aircraft due to the prevalence of anti-air,...
Just as a note, large bombers fell out of favor mainly because of two reasons. First, due to advances in technology, we were able to create larger impacts in smaller packages, thus not as much space for the same amount of boom. Secondly, we developed smart bombs that are accurate within 3m so we don't have to blow up a quarter mile just to make sure we hit a single target. |
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