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Killing 'the collectible' : Making rewards matter

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Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 1059	Posted - 2013.06.24 22:52:00 - [1] - Quote Point of this is simple : CCP needs to stop giving out rewards in hilariously small quantities, which can never be earned again. Examples : 'Quafe' scout suits. Black eagle suits. State protectorate/Fed defense suits. CCP runs cool events, gives us like 10-25 of these suits, and then there is never a chance to earn them again. This doesn't make them a reward, this makes them a collectible trophy. In my mind, that is utter crap. Firstly, because it means no one really wants to use them for fear of not having them later. Secondly, because in a game where someone can lose all of those suits within hours... a quantity of 10-25 for a 'reward' is more of a slap in the face. There are two solutions : Run more events, making these suits less unique but more available. Add an ability to restock 'unique' suits at a significantly increased price. (Maybe a use for LP later) I don't feel the solutions are mutually exclusive, and while I prefer the second option, I'd love it if there was more events. As an added bonus....Adding an option to restock items like this, also opens up the ability to 'fix' the LAV bpo blunder. (Referring to CCP offering standard level bpo's of LAV for various events and microtransaction packs) This allows for CCP to address the roadkilling issue with free LAV, yet lets people who 'paid/earned for them' to still have their unique vehicles for posterity. This could even be extended to normal bpo's as a whole, but inverted. Having a BPO could make something drastically cheaper instead. That's a point for a separate topic though, I think. The point is : I want to see rewards that are actually rewarding, and practical to use. Paying a bit more ISK to maintain that special flair is definitely worth it, and otherwise, it's kind of a waste of dev-time to make suits, items, and vehicles that barely anyone will ever use because they are collectibles :(
Forlorn Destrier ZionTCD 1017	Posted - 2013.06.24 22:53:00 - [2] - Quote Good idea, but contrary to what CCP does in general. CCP likes collectibles to use a trophy, as you don't get the same trophies other games give. Personally, I'm ok with this.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 505	Posted - 2013.06.24 23:06:00 - [3] - Quote +1 I love the Black Eagle, but it really is just a trophy. The fact that I cannot replenish/replace it makes it a USELESS trophy. If we were present for the event, and we got the item as a reward, then access to repurchase it should be ours exclusively, at least until the next event, where more people could potentially get access to it. For now, it takes up space. I'm not against BPOs being permanent "coupons" of some sort, but the price reduction given from them should be substantial (greater than 50%) for their equivalent item in the market. Forlorn Destrier wrote: Good idea, but contrary to what CCP does in general. CCP likes collectibles to use a trophy, as you don't get the same trophies other games give. Personally, I'm ok with this. Well, I'm not ok with this. It's an annoyance to have something you can't make reasonable use of. If I have a "trophy" for participation in some event, then I should be able to show it off in a match indefinitely provided i'm willing to pay the price. How else am I going to be able to show-it-off, if it's in constant danger of permanent, irreplaceable loss?
Oso Peresoso RisingSuns 24	Posted - 2013.06.25 01:38:00 - [4] - Quote To my knowledge, CCP has never given out a renewable unique resource in the history of eve. Every guardian vexor, every utu, adrestia, Apocalypse imperial issue, every luxury yacht and gold magnate has been a finite resource. Every one that's destroyed is gone forever. The downside for dust is, you can undock such a ship (at great risk), you can spin it in your hangar, you can enjoy it in some sense. In Dust you can sort of do the same thing, although joining a battle is the equivalent of undocking, so you're at a bit of a disadvantage. The problem with making such ships renewable is that it both destroys their uniqueness, lowering their value, and its a source of grief for players lucky enough to participate in in-space live events. I guess with dust events the unfairness factor is much lower, but the fact remains that making these items renewable for one person makes them infinitely available for everyone. Making them 'very expensive' doesn't change that. My biggest concern is that such items offer improved performance over available items. If the Quafe scout suit is just a reskin of the gallente basic one, then a lot of the objections to your proposal lose their wind. However, they would still need to somehow be rendered non-tradable. But then they aren't collectors items anymore, just trophies.
low genius The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 112	Posted - 2013.06.25 01:44:00 - [5] - Quote the op doesn't understand how the 'collectible' aspect of eve works. eventually those small small quantities will make them very valuable.
Iskandar Zul Karnain Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 866	Posted - 2013.06.25 02:02:00 - [6] - Quote -1 These rewards are collectors items not replacements for your everyday fitting. I like how it works now. I hope CCP doesn't change it. As for restocking these suits? Why hard cap the value? Why make something 'exclusive' available at a set price? :/
Sgt Buttscratch G I A N T EoN. 224	Posted - 2013.06.25 02:07:00 - [7] - Quote How about this, rather than events(only one worth while is x2/3 xp) giving these suits out as rewards, which the OP is correct, these are actually collectables. How about we add these suits and as possible salvage for the victors of factional warefare, but link them to their races. That way there is at least some reason dust side to run factional warfare, other than try to load you entire corp into 1 team. This can include - special dropsuits, weapons, maybe cool little modules. just a thought.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 1062	Posted - 2013.06.25 02:13:00 - [8] - Quote low genius wrote: the op doesn't understand how the 'collectible' aspect of eve works. eventually those small small quantities will make them very valuable. I know exactly how it works, and that's what I want to avoid. Stuff like the AT prizes for example. Every year there is 50 ships given out, and once they're gone, they're gone. Only a few are ballsy enough to actually use them. They're essentially wasted development assets. They shouldn't be everyday replacements, but they should be there for people who want to show off that they have them. I've said it in the past, that ISK is a poor barrier, but it's a logical one in this case... As long as the 'reward' is not something that is exceptionally better than ISK variants. (Officer level 'rewards' should not be re-stockable and should be available only in events or as salvage... but those events shouldn't only happen once every few months) But for stuff like the black eagle scout (Which is in many ways worse than militia level suits) there's no reason not to allow people to keep using those... for a price.
Doyle Reese OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 168	Posted - 2013.06.25 02:19:00 - [9] - Quote don't the Black Eagle Scout have the Shotgun and AR as weapons?
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1814	Posted - 2013.06.28 19:15:00 - [10] - Quote I have piles of interesting reward suits; the only ones I actually ever use are the skinweaves, since they're BPO. I really want to use my Black Eagle scout suits (AR as a sidearm, lol) but I also don't want to waste it.

Elena Peoples BetaMax. CRONOS. 11	Posted - 2013.06.28 19:27:00 - [11] - Quote I like the fact that stuff like that comes in small quantities, makes owning them worth something. I've made a habit eve side of collecting ships of all sorts,(then selling one or two for 2-4 times the amount a year down the line (as long as I got more then one)) and intend to do the same here when the market becomes available(with suits of course) Having these things restockable would kill any value they had very quickly. Example, the pirate rookie frigates eve side, sure they're useless stat wise. not really any better then the slandered rookie ships. But still limited and thus valuable to own. Plus it makes it very sad when something like them vanishes from the game, which is a good thing. I will never be able to own a Golden Magnate, as none exist anymore, nor will it ever again.
Sardonk Eternia Multnomah Interstellar Holdings Inc. 97	Posted - 2013.06.28 19:54:00 - [12] - Quote I think all event reward suits should be BPO and purely cosmetic in nature.
Aikuchi Tomaru Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 30	Posted - 2013.06.28 20:01:00 - [13] - Quote low genius wrote: the op doesn't understand how the 'collectible' aspect of eve works. eventually those small small quantities will make them very valuable. This would be great if you could, well, I don't know, trade them?
Daedric Lothar Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 775	Posted - 2013.06.28 20:10:00 - [14] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: I want to see rewards that are actually rewarding, and practical to use. Paying a bit more ISK to maintain that special flair is definitely worth it, and otherwise, it's kind of a waste of dev-time to make suits, items, and vehicles that barely anyone will ever use because they are collectibles :( Hmmm... I'm not sure they are a waste of time.. I do know that I will never actually use any of the suits I earned from events. those Caldari Prime event suits are going to be stuffed in my inventory forever until I sell all but 1 of each when the market opens for big profit. I figured they were just for favoriting so you could have your forum avatar and Warbarge avatar walking around in the suit to show off. Big surprise to me when I realized my forum avatar would be ol triangle head over here. [Edit]: However I do know what you mean. I think it is neat how they gave out the [Exile] for a special event. its the same as the standard AR, but just having the name show up is kinda worth it. It would be kinda cool if you had a like Blueprint Editor. Example. Say the reward is a special Advanced Assault Rifle, well lets say that once you get the item, every time you go to the market you can keep buying the regular AAR to restock your special AAR. so you don't have to worry about BPO creep, you are still paying for the item, but you do get to keep your special gun which appears again and again on the kill boards. And when the market goes up, you have 1 copy of your Blueprint editor to sell, but if you sell it. All your special rifles go away, you can't store them.
Dirks Macker Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 4	Posted - 2013.06.28 20:53:00 - [15] - Quote Oso Peresoso wrote: To my knowledge, CCP has never given out a renewable unique resource in the history of eve. I wasn't around for it, but I think T2 BPO's fall into that category. As for the OP's idea, I like it. Along with a set number of items as an event reward, possibly give an item that unlocks the ability to buy the item at very high npc isk prices or equivalent aurum prices. When player trading becomes available, people could sell that item which gives access.
Oso Peresoso RisingSuns 44	Posted - 2013.06.28 23:39:00 - [16] - Quote Dirks Macker wrote: Oso Peresoso wrote: To my knowledge, CCP has never given out a renewable unique resource in the history of eve. I wasn't around for it, but I think T2 BPO's fall into that category. Close but not quite. T2 BPOs let you create ships that can be accessed by other means. And t2 bpo's themselves are not renewable. And CCP promised never to do such a thing like that again anyway.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 2944	Posted - 2013.06.28 23:53:00 - [17] - Quote Sounds nice, but I disagree about restocking them at an increased price. Perhaps as long as we're getting more of the same reward during certain events, I won't see a problem with it. My only concern is the possibility of seeing these rewards become cheapened with excess.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1007	Posted - 2013.06.29 00:19:00 - [18] - Quote Right now, there are three different types of items. 1. ISK bought bpc 2. BPOs 3. collectible/officer. I like having items that I know i'll be able to sell when the player market opens up for gobs of ISK, These are cool rewards as you can either use them yourself, wear one in the warbage and be super pretty, or sell them. It's better than just a chunk of cash as you have options on how to use it. I would like to see a 4th type of item added in Dust. the "faction" item. Slightly better or specialized ( a Royal marines SCR that deals less damage but has the same high headshot multiplier as the pistol, for example) that you can get from events or LP. I'd also like to see another BPO event reward. That'll be something that'll have people logging on. and not another AR bpo. Seriously. I've got 3 exiles already.
Skipper Jones Red Star. EoN. 179	Posted - 2013.06.29 00:22:00 - [19] - Quote You're right, I do use them up in about an hour or so. The only suits I still have are the Quafe Scout suits. I liked the closed beta events though. Weapons week- where I got my Exile Ar. The event where I got my 'skimweave' suits. There should be more events like that
Patoman Radiant ZionTCD 139	Posted - 2013.06.29 00:31:00 - [20] - Quote of issues of the game, you identified non-issues and I support ccp with keeping limited edition suits limited edition. I would like coloration of suits to be customizable, especially the horrible choice of having specialized suites white, green, and yellow. I think the suit varients described in events could be a peminant unlocked skin, not a suit, that way you could use it with any fancy racial suit you have in the future. That or if they are intended to be limited edition, keep them that way.

Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1011	Posted - 2013.06.29 04:30:00 - [21] - Quote Patoman Radiant wrote: I think the suit varients described in events could be a peminant unlocked skin, not a suit, that way you could use it with any fancy racial suit you have in the future.. a permanent skin would be freaking sweet. You know, like a solid gold Amarr assault with etchings
Lightning Bolt2 DUST University Ivy League 23	Posted - 2013.06.29 07:09:00 - [22] - Quote Doyle Reese wrote: don't the Black Eagle Scout have the Shotgun and AR as weapons? the black eagle scout is my Idea of the commando dropsuit and i'd LOVE the colors to be unlocked as long as you had the event item, then I'd need an event mimitar scout
Gigatron Prime The.Primes 84	Posted - 2013.06.30 06:04:00 - [23] - Quote I like the idea of collectibles. Their main use for me is to look good in the warbarge really. Not for combat.
Atikali Havendoorr HERBGROWERS 28	Posted - 2013.07.07 01:14:00 - [24] - Quote Haven't bothered to read the whole thread, but i certainly don't get the Evertards argument that it should be this ridiculously limited 'cause it's a collectible'. Okay..? Serious? IN-GAME COLLECTIBLE? Just to show off..? I thought I was a nerd... And absolutely most of all, WHAT'S THE DARN POINT WHEN THERE IS NO VIABLE WAY TO SHOW IT OFF? This is totally beyond me. If there were some kind of war barge thing without battle commitment, Playstation Home like, I could mildly understand. Or if one could see it in when people check out the profile. I don't know how exactly it works in Eve, but as far as I know, you can glide around in some more or less safe area. But in Dust the only way is to do battle. You'll waste them in no time. And no-one will notice. This is regardless of if/when trading comes around. No. Make them usefull. Just like the OP suggested.
Fire of Prometheus Solaris Space Marines 8	Posted - 2013.07.19 20:17:00 - [25] - Quote Sardonk Eternia wrote: I think all event reward suits should be BPO and purely cosmetic in nature. You sir are a genius, they shouldn't be full fits but perhaps just a cosmetically different drop suit depending on how successful you were in said event. E.g. The event is score as many points as you can in a week (for lack of a better example) Tier 1 (a basic version of the drop suit) between 5,000-7,500 points scored Tier 2 (advanced version of the drop suit) between 7,501-15,000 points scored Tier 3 (prototype version of the suit but not quite equal to the isk variant) 15,000+ points
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 1173	Posted - 2013.07.20 06:19:00 - [26] - Quote BPO's of the suits themselves (Especially if we're talking about higher than standard level) is a pretty bad idea, IMO. BPO's are bad enough as-is, because beyond the initial 'cost' of acquiring them, they're essentially free forever. I have a post on why this is bad, if you search for it. Moving more towards "BPO Skins" like suggested above allows CCP to make visual flair rewards that can be applied to their suit of choice, which is a much better option. That, or sticking with the current option of keeping these rewards consumable is much more viable than risky development choices like creating BPO's of higher than standard level. On this note, though... We actually just had a meeting with CCP's event team, and I'm feeling pretty happy about what they brought to us regarding events for the next few months. During the meeting and in our internal forums afterwards, we had a pretty excellent discussion about ways they could possibly run events like those in the past to keep an infusion of these 'special suits' into the game, in a much more awesome way than in the past. While nothing's been solid confirmed yet... I'm pretty damn optimistic about what the Events team will bring us in the future now.
IR Scifi Silver Talon Corporation 52	Posted - 2013.07.20 17:03:00 - [27] - Quote Dirks Macker wrote: Oso Peresoso wrote: To my knowledge, CCP has never given out a renewable unique resource in the history of eve. I wasn't around for it, but I think T2 BPO's fall into that category. They did and it was a horrible idea that took them WAY too long to rectify. Depending on the BPO you basically ended up with an officially licensed CCP-brand isk printer. I'm against making them all BPO's but bumping up the numbers a bit (the current 100 count looks good) would be perfectly fine.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1321	Posted - 2013.07.20 17:21:00 - [28] - Quote +1 to Quote: Run more events, making these suits less unique but more available. Add an ability to restock 'unique' suits at a significantly increased price. (Maybe a use for LP later) and a big fat -1 to tampering with BPOs retroactively decreasing the value of real money transactions. The first is a great way to increase event participation and in game economic activity as well as incentivese FW participation in a more organized manner. The latter is a way to breach player trust in a newly released game and sour the market/reviews outside of the game in such a way that CCPs cash flow is diminished. The value of most BPOs is that they are BPOs not a "fancy" paint job. The vast majority of players I've spoken with have minimal, or no, interest in spending AUR for essentially cosmetic changes, forcing BPOs to become BPCs (yes even at "reduced price") diminishes/removes the actual traits/item value that motivated the purchase in the first place. There should be a hardline limit on the meta level of any BPOs released. For example Dust doesn't need to ever see Proto level BPOs, but culling BPOs from the game completely after players have spent real money specifically to acquire those items? That's very bad policy. 0.02 ISK Cross EDIT: Just to be clear, my objections regarding BPOs are not applicable to future in game events. It is likely for the best if such events generally (or completely) cease to offer BPOs as rewards for participation.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 1175	Posted - 2013.07.20 17:56:00 - [29] - Quote [quote=Cross Atu]+1 to Quote: There should be a hardline limit on the meta level of any BPOs released. For example Dust doesn't need to ever see Proto level BPOs, but culling BPOs from the game completely after players have spent real money specifically to acquire those items? That's very bad policy. . BPO's are bad policy. However, I agree. They can't simply remove them without having something adequate in place to make those purchases still have value. There's going to be a crowd who won't be pleased either way and will complain no matter what CCP does. But I'd much rather have CCP infuriate a small amount of people by doing the right thing than allow BPO's to continue to be a thing. It just encourages them to start making shadier and shadier steps towards P2W and other 'cash grabs' Player stance on stuff like that needs to be firm and resolute to prevent CCP from getting any funny ideas. Permanent Cosmetic/vanity/Epeen purchases are fine. Permanent combat assets are not.
Malkai Inos Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 755	Posted - 2013.07.20 20:40:00 - [30] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: Cross Atu wrote: There should be a hardline limit on the meta level of any BPOs released. For example Dust doesn't need to ever see Proto level BPOs, but culling BPOs from the game completely after players have spent real money specifically to acquire those items? That's very bad policy. . BPO's are bad policy. However, I agree. They can't simply remove them without having something adequate in place to make those purchases still have value. There's going to be a crowd who won't be pleased either way and will complain no matter what CCP does. But I'd much rather have CCP infuriate a small amount of people by doing the right thing than allow BPO's to continue to be a thing. It just encourages them to start making shadier and shadier steps towards P2W and other 'cash grabs' Player stance on stuff like that needs to be firm and resolute to prevent CCP from getting any funny ideas. Permanent Cosmetic/vanity/Epeen purchases are fine. Permanent combat assets are not. +1 to both as i think the BPO situation requires significant thought During closed beta i expected BPOs to be a temporary solution for cosmetic items until the technology to apply a color pallete (BPO) to any suit/weapon (BPC) is implemented. For this reason i didn't expect the current BPO system to ever make it into the release state of the game and i am also convinced that they shouldn't ever have. By bringing BPOs into the released game CCP created a potentionally huge problem, both for the economy and for game balance as no gear is properly balanced for being "free". The latter is most apparent with LAVs as the BPOs cut the cost of spamming them by a huge margin, thus devaluating MLT/STD LAVs and increasing the need for AV weaponry to counter the spam. The former will show itself when all items that have a BPO equivalent become less interesting to produce as the demand is artificially diminished by BPO owners, possibly making them more expensive for the remainder of the playerbase. Note that a feedback effect is possible as higher item prices increase the value and sales of BPOs that lead to even higher prices of BPCs. The current BPO system has to go rather sooner than later as it has the potential to remove the manufactuing of STD tier gear from the game when demand becomes too low and prices uncompetitive against the superior ADV tier. Not being able to feasibly produce low tier items increases the barrier of entry for all trading and industry professions once they arrive. Removing BPOs from the game and supplanting them with what are effectively 20k AUR paintjobs is detrimental to consumer trust and i understand that full refunds are out of question for several reasons. The sale and distribution of BPOs however should cease as soon as possible to prevent further damage to game balance and a potentionally important ingame market segment. I am not convinced that cosmetic items would not be profitable if offered for a reasonable price. Many successful games offer purely cosmetic items as their primary income stream so it can be assumed that a general demand for low price paint jobs is there to be taken advantage of. CCP should stop distributing low quantity high margin BPOs and instead introduce a range of custom skins that are priced at 2-5$ (4-10k AUR even less for simple flat colors) to allow a wide range of players to purchase them. To gauge acceptance for these paint jobs CCP could introduce completely new ones in parallel to the current BPOs at first. This will help decide wether purely cosmetic items can provide a viable revenue stream. Also worth considering is the option of DIY paint kits that allow individual players and ( for a higher price) whole corps to achieve a higher level of customization through a wide variety of patterns (camo, geometric and others) and colors for individual parts of the suits/weapons. This is especially interesting for corps as it strengthens corporate identity by having a unique and distinct appearance on the battlefield. Corp patterns could be able to be set to either override or respect individual player colors so that more lax corporations can allow individual paint jobs on the battlefield.

Fire of Prometheus Solaris Space Marines 21	Posted - 2013.07.20 22:45:00 - [31] - Quote .[/quote] Also worth considering is the option of DIY paint kits that allow individual players and ( for a higher price) whole corps to achieve a higher level of customization through a wide variety of patterns (camo, geometric and others) and colors for individual parts of the suits/weapons. This is especially interesting for corps as it strengthens corporate identity by having a unique and distinct appearance on the battlefield. Corp patterns could be able to be set to either override or respect individual player colors so that more lax corporations can allow individual paint jobs on the battlefield. [/quote] I like this better than the BPO option I mentioned, does anyone know if this is in CCP's agenda?
Malkai Inos Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 755	Posted - 2013.07.20 23:18:00 - [32] - Quote Fire of Prometheus wrote: I like this better than the BPO option I mentioned, does anyone know if this is in CCP's agenda? It was considered as per #18 from Feedback/Suggestions - Weekly Updates on the DUST 514. This is several months old though, so don't know the status of the idea. There's also no mention of monetisation as of yet so we'll have to see what cost (if any) might be associated with it. Incidentally #19 Refers among others to a discussion about wether or not BPOs should be removed from the game. I had a break during that period so i don't know this thread and the outcome thereof. Keep in mind. Both posts are from january this year.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1324	Posted - 2013.07.20 23:27:00 - [33] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: Cross Atu wrote: There should be a hardline limit on the meta level of any BPOs released. For example Dust doesn't need to ever see Proto level BPOs, but culling BPOs from the game completely after players have spent real money specifically to acquire those items? That's very bad policy. . BPO's are bad policy. However, I agree. They can't simply remove them without having something adequate in place to make those purchases still have value. There's going to be a crowd who won't be pleased either way and will complain no matter what CCP does. But I'd much rather have CCP infuriate a small amount of people by doing the right thing than allow BPO's to continue to be a thing. It just encourages them to start making shadier and shadier steps towards P2W and other 'cash grabs' Player stance on stuff like that needs to be firm and resolute to prevent CCP from getting any funny ideas. Permanent Cosmetic/vanity/Epeen purchases are fine. Permanent combat assets are not. Meta 1 BPOs aren't really a major economic or balance issue. This concept was first discussed with CCP during closed beta and I said the same thing at the time. Also at that time I pointed out, as I recall, how damaging it would be to the micro transaction module via loss of player trust to alter the fundamental nature of cash items weeks or months after the initial player purchase. All of this is more true now, post live launch than it was during closed beta. We've seen the hostility and outcry engendered when CCP changed to MAG suit BPOs in such a way that they were harder to skill into. That was a very small segment of the BPOs on the market and their fundamental nature wasn't even altered it was only put behind a higher SP barrier. There was enough negative feedback from players regarding this move that CCP reversed course on this issue and reduced the SP required to utilize those suits. Stripping the base nature of a BPO out of the item by making it consumable in some cases as much as a year after purchase (closed beta merc packs) is, frankly speaking, poison for player trust and world of mouth. Furthermore at the present power/meta level of BPOs it is simply unnecessary. Running basic gear is not "pay to win" it's running basic gear. Getting that gear at no further cost after AUR doesn't make it P2W or a balance issue it just allows those players who've invested cash into the game a moderately higher rate of net gain while grinding ISK in pubs. None of the BPOs in game are of sufficient potency to be used in competitive play at the tournament or PC level. Most of the BPOs aren't even arguably mid rage gear they are primarily militia grade which is specifically the lowest value gear in the game stat wise. Indeed for the majority of these BPOs the only thing that makes them an AUR item as opposed to an item most players won't have a use for beyond the first few months is the fact that they're unlimited use. Even if cosmetic "skins" and other purely epeen related items were in some why an acceptable swap for this value (which I firmly contend they are not as most players I know who own AUR BPOs have essentially zero interest in cosmetic items) that would still not fix the issue as more than half of the BPOs aren't suits or weapons they are mods which have no visual display presence within game whatsoever. Removing an already purchased item without maintaining equal value is very bad policy indeed. Assuming players value traits of a totally different nature equally isn't a realistic solution nor is devaluing the purchase by arbitrarily assigning an "equivalent" value via ISK savings et al because there isn't one. No amount of savings on low end gear equals an unlimited run low end item and most players won't have any real use for such things. CCP could in theory refund the full current AUR value of all BPOs on the market but not only does that leave various BPOs still in place since they have no market entry it also gluts the game with AUR leaving only a minimal selection of purchase types upon which to use it. Unlike EVE people aren't paying to be in New Eden via Dust. When they invest money into the game they are paying for specific things not general access. As such policies in EVE cannot be directly cross-applied, and even if they could there are free starter ships and tutorial rewards in EVE which are not very dissimilar from current Dust BPOs when considered within the context of "end game" impact on balance and market behavior in game. That is to say they have no impact on upper meta game play or market trading. Yes higher meta BPOs are a terrible idea, and "BPO creep" could push Dust into P2W but translating that into a reactionary removal of player assets which have already been purchased with real world cash is frankly poison to player confidence as well as being functionally unnecessary from both a market and balance point of view. TL;DR - Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. 0.02 ISK ~ Cross
Malkai Inos Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 755	Posted - 2013.07.21 00:00:00 - [34] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: snip If you're interested i've made a crude comparison between the Dollar cost of an average BPO and it's worth in ISK based on (at that time) current PLEX price samples from Jita. Assuming there are no glaring flaws in this comparison i expect BPOs never to break even for the vast majority of players as, based on the assumption that the ISK/$ conversion of Dust will balance itself to about EVE levels, converting the AUR into ISK in more "direct" means yields much more ISK than most BPOs could ever save during their lifetime i.e. the lifetime of the player. I agree that their unlimited nature is a huge draw towards BPOs due to their perceived value in saving ISK for pub grinding but it appears to me that this perceived value is much overestimated - fallacious even. This does not change of course the expected outcry, should CCP try to alter the way current BPOs are handled. It might provide a basis to find a reasonable alternative offer for future BPOs though. I agree that current BPOs are likely here to stay and CCP missed their chance to remove them on 14/5/13 though this thought saddens me a little.
CLONE117 Planetary Response Organization 44	Posted - 2013.07.21 00:03:00 - [35] - Quote y not make them a bpo?
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1327	Posted - 2013.07.24 16:36:00 - [36] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: Cross Atu wrote: snip If you're interested i've made a crude comparison between the Dollar cost of an average BPO and it's worth in ISK based on (at that time) current PLEX price samples from Jita. Assuming there are no glaring flaws in this comparison i expect BPOs never to break even for the vast majority of players as, based on the assumption that the ISK/$ conversion of Dust will balance itself to about EVE levels, converting the AUR into ISK in more "direct" means yields much more ISK than most BPOs could ever save during their lifetime i.e. the lifetime of the player. I agree that their unlimited nature is a huge draw towards BPOs due to their perceived value in saving ISK for pub grinding but it appears to me that this perceived value is much overestimated - fallacious even. This does not change of course the expected outcry, should CCP try to alter the way current BPOs are handled. It might provide a basis to find a reasonable alternative offer for future BPOs though. I agree that current BPOs are likely here to stay and CCP missed their chance to remove them on 14/5/13 though this thought saddens me a little. That's an interesting comparison and I thank you for the link. An aspect which I think is key to the discussion but transcends the direct economic value a bit however is the concept of play style/intensity. In EVE there are nights when a player is tired, distracted, drinking, etc. where they make the choice to run cheaper ships and fits so as to minimize the increased risk do to their current less focused status. It is not infrequent that some players go even further and either alter their activities (say mining as opposed to PvP fleets) or not undocking at all. This is a key aspect for the BPO in Dust because it allows for some of the same compensation on a players part. The merc who has purchased such a BPO is able to sit down and play in a less competitive manner when the situation/their condition calls for it rather than being faced with the more hardline choice of higher risk vs not playing at all. Granted a player could run the equivalent non-BPO fits and still be risking less than running their high end gear but that does not provide the same psychological "nudge" as an 'unlimited' tag does even if for an established player the distinction is nominal. In EVE the wealthy and established players are more likely to impulsively risk assets for their own amusement, and less likely to feel the sting of a loss of they have production capabilities for that same asset secured (as opposed to relying on the market). In Dust there are no players with deep industry roots or a decade of SP, deaths are more common in Dust, and the use cycle for assets is faster (compare the average number of matches per evening to the average number of fleet ops in active groups). With all that considered I'm actually less concerned about the current iteration of BPOs than I was before. Granted I still think any high meta BPOs would be a terrible idea but looking only at the current meta 0-1 offerings we have now within the context of the analysis you provide in your link I'm less inclined to see a problem for the New Eden economy in general. If players are able to produce and sell the gear for D514 in a manner like that currently active in EVE and thus undercut the current NPC seeded market prices the ~average number of matched needed to turn a current BPO "profitable" becomes even higher. This has one of three major results, as I see it, Players who have IRL $ and/or don't do the numbers continue to by BPOs, maybe buying even more Players who crunch the numbers on it use pure ISK gear purchased from players via the secondary market (saving their IRL $ for PLEX or other uses) Players without the desire/means to spend IRL $ on D514 still use pure ISK gear but with more competitive market rates Let's not forget that CCP will control the mins, runs, and production time of all EVE side BPOs once introduced and can tweak those values as required if the market seems to be a problem. Further those base values, whatever they may be, will be subjected to the industrial power of long time toons and corps from the Indy backbone of EVE further maximizing the output of each BPO as skill buffs et al are applied. At the end of the day the main value of current BPOs (outside of some uses for field testing basic fit concepts/mechanics) is a psychological one. It allows players who are less inclined to engage with the market a way to "shortcut" that while still rewarding those players who take the time to assess the economics. It seems like a solid balance for bringing an FPS to New Eden. 0.02 ISK Cross ps ~ since the derived value of a BPO is based on deaths suffered they are greater value to new players and players trying to improve their gun game and less value to vets/tryhards which puts them precisely where AUR items are supposed to be, softening the shock of the learning curve.
Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 367	Posted - 2013.07.24 17:43:00 - [37] - Quote Sardonk Eternia wrote: I think all event reward suits should be BPO and purely cosmetic in nature. Plas One.
Jason Punk DUST University Ivy League 171	Posted - 2013.07.24 21:42:00 - [38] - Quote Solution 3: allow for us to trade on an open market
Niuvo The Phoenix Federation 292	Posted - 2013.07.24 22:12:00 - [39] - Quote interesting thoughts. My suits are in their respected display cases, they have lights too. I am not touching those lol. Better rewards indeed! Say Quafe sponsors the next event, we should get Quafe items e.g. powerful mods. Say we get 100 of those, then people will use them!
THUNDERGROOVE ZionTCD 101	Posted - 2013.07.24 22:21:00 - [40] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: I want to see rewards that are actually rewarding, and practical to use. Paying a bit more ISK to maintain that special flair is definitely worth it, and otherwise, it's kind of a waste of dev-time to make suits, items, and vehicles that barely anyone will ever use because they are collectibles :( I like that, make them BPC's that can only be restocked if you own it already and make them cost like twice as much as each module, weapon, dropsuit, whatever costs all together.

Niuvo The Phoenix Federation 292	Posted - 2013.07.24 22:26:00 - [41] - Quote Can you get the starter fits back if you deleted them? I think not.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 695	Posted - 2013.07.25 00:09:00 - [42] - Quote Necroing this thread. Okay. For everyone saying that "collectibles' would be valuable... one question. Why? I'm going to trade a suit, that will never be used, because it's totally useless on the battlefield, and it's limited in quantity. DO NOT compare the collectibles to officer weapons. Officer weapons have obvious superiority on the battlefield, and that makes their deployment a solid and sound tactical risk. Collectibles do not. They don't even work as a troll, and there's no benefit to bothering to kill someone using it, since you can't get it from them as salvage anyway. All that considered... what makes you think these things will have ANY value as a traded commodity? Even collectible and antique cars can be driven, and if you wreck them, there is always a way to perform repairs. By comparison, these "prize" dropsuits are totally useless garbage if they remain irreplaceable. Give me some logic. Give some real logic beyond sentimentality why these collectibles should continue to be as they are.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 695	Posted - 2013.07.25 00:12:00 - [43] - Quote Niuvo wrote: Can you get the starter fits back if you deleted them? I think not. You can. :) They are forever in your list of dropsuits. Starter Fits are the only ones of their kind. "BPO Sets". They come with their own infinite weapons and modules, just like the Black Eagle suit and others... Only difference? Starter fits are infinite. Is it so hard to make the collectibles function exactly like the starter fits? I think not.
Talos Vagheitan King Slayers 50	Posted - 2013.10.05 16:13:00 - [44] - Quote Well, I'm not ok with this. It's an annoyance to have something you can't make reasonable use of. If I have a "trophy" for participation in some event, then I should be able to show it off in a match indefinitely provided i'm willing to pay the price. How else am I going to be able to show-it-off, if it's in constant danger of permanent, irreplaceable loss?[/quote] That's life brother. The way she goes. I love that there are irreplaceable unique equipment out there. Can set up some cool scenarios. Say in a corp battle way down the road, a squad of scouts decides to deploy the legendary long-forgotten BLack Eagle suits, and turns the tide of a battle. ... Maybe that's a dramatic scenario, but at-least it's possible. So no, I don't think you should be entitled to keep something forever just because you participated in an event. Unless CCP rewards you with a blueprint
Talos Vagheitan King Slayers 50	Posted - 2013.10.05 16:15:00 - [45] - Quote Jathniel wrote: Well, I'm not ok with this. It's an annoyance to have something you can't make reasonable use of. If I have a "trophy" for participation in some event, then I should be able to show it off in a match indefinitely provided i'm willing to pay the price. How else am I going to be able to show-it-off, if it's in constant danger of permanent, irreplaceable loss? That's life brother. The way she goes. I love that there are irreplaceable unique equipment out there. Can set up some cool scenarios. Say in a corp battle way down the road, a squad of scouts decides to deploy the legendary long-forgotten BLack Eagle suits, and turns the tide of a battle. ... Maybe that's a dramatic scenario, but at-least it's possible. So no, I don't think you should be entitled to keep something forever just because you participated in an event. Unless CCP rewards you with a blueprint
Slag Emberforge Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic 12	Posted - 2013.10.05 21:52:00 - [46] - Quote Sardonk Eternia wrote: I think all event reward suits should be BPO and purely cosmetic in nature. Best idea in the thread, a piece of flair that shows you participated or at least gives a bit of variety without giving any advantage worth QQing over. I never use the limited stock items I've received from events, it's a shame they just there gathering dust. ahem
deepfried salad gilliam Sanguine Knights 23	Posted - 2013.10.06 01:46:00 - [47] - Quote I'm waiting for the player market so I can sell them and all my officer weapons
deepfried salad gilliam Sanguine Knights 23	Posted - 2013.10.06 01:54:00 - [48] - Quote Say 1000 people got 100 of a good event suit 10,000 of them are sold on the player market (planned) there you go replenishable for a steep price, 3 months later some more are sold for an even bigger price and in a year the last few are sold and used It will happen and it will be very useful


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