DUST Search - Killing 'the collectible' : Making rewards matter

Malkai Inos wrote:

Cross Atu wrote:

*snip*

If you're interested i've made a crude comparison between the Dollar cost of an average BPO and it's worth in ISK based on (at that time) current PLEX price samples from Jita.

Assuming there are no glaring flaws in this comparison i expect BPOs never to break even for the vast majority of players as, based on the assumption that the ISK/$ conversion of Dust will balance itself to about EVE levels, converting the AUR into ISK in more "direct" means yields much more ISK than most BPOs could ever save during their lifetime i.e. the lifetime of the player.

I agree that their unlimited nature is a huge draw towards BPOs due to their perceived value in saving ISK for pub grinding but it appears to me that this perceived value is much overestimated - fallacious even.

This does not change of course the expected outcry, should CCP try to alter the way current BPOs are handled. It might provide a basis to find a reasonable alternative offer for future BPOs though.

I agree that current BPOs are likely here to stay and CCP missed their chance to remove them on 14/5/13 though this thought saddens me a little.

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Fire of Prometheus Solaris Space Marines 21	Posted - 2013.07.20 22:45:00 - [31] - Quote .[/quote] Also worth considering is the option of DIY paint kits that allow individual players and ( for a higher price) whole corps to achieve a higher level of customization through a wide variety of patterns (camo, geometric and others) and colors for individual parts of the suits/weapons. This is especially interesting for corps as it strengthens corporate identity by having a unique and distinct appearance on the battlefield. Corp patterns could be able to be set to either override or respect individual player colors so that more lax corporations can allow individual paint jobs on the battlefield. [/quote] I like this better than the BPO option I mentioned, does anyone know if this is in CCP's agenda?
Malkai Inos Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 755	Posted - 2013.07.20 23:18:00 - [32] - Quote Fire of Prometheus wrote: I like this better than the BPO option I mentioned, does anyone know if this is in CCP's agenda? It was considered as per #18 from Feedback/Suggestions - Weekly Updates on the DUST 514. This is several months old though, so don't know the status of the idea. There's also no mention of monetisation as of yet so we'll have to see what cost (if any) might be associated with it. Incidentally #19 Refers among others to a discussion about wether or not BPOs should be removed from the game. I had a break during that period so i don't know this thread and the outcome thereof. Keep in mind. Both posts are from january this year.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1324	Posted - 2013.07.20 23:27:00 - [33] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: Cross Atu wrote: There should be a hardline limit on the meta level of any BPOs released. For example Dust doesn't need to ever see Proto level BPOs, but culling BPOs from the game completely after players have spent real money specifically to acquire those items? That's very bad policy. . BPO's are bad policy. However, I agree. They can't simply remove them without having something adequate in place to make those purchases still have value. There's going to be a crowd who won't be pleased either way and will complain no matter what CCP does. But I'd much rather have CCP infuriate a small amount of people by doing the right thing than allow BPO's to continue to be a thing. It just encourages them to start making shadier and shadier steps towards P2W and other 'cash grabs' Player stance on stuff like that needs to be firm and resolute to prevent CCP from getting any funny ideas. Permanent Cosmetic/vanity/Epeen purchases are fine. Permanent combat assets are not. Meta 1 BPOs aren't really a major economic or balance issue. This concept was first discussed with CCP during closed beta and I said the same thing at the time. Also at that time I pointed out, as I recall, how damaging it would be to the micro transaction module via loss of player trust to alter the fundamental nature of cash items weeks or months after the initial player purchase. All of this is more true now, post live launch than it was during closed beta. We've seen the hostility and outcry engendered when CCP changed to MAG suit BPOs in such a way that they were harder to skill into. That was a very small segment of the BPOs on the market and their fundamental nature wasn't even altered it was only put behind a higher SP barrier. There was enough negative feedback from players regarding this move that CCP reversed course on this issue and reduced the SP required to utilize those suits. Stripping the base nature of a BPO out of the item by making it consumable in some cases as much as a year after purchase (closed beta merc packs) is, frankly speaking, poison for player trust and world of mouth. Furthermore at the present power/meta level of BPOs it is simply unnecessary. Running basic gear is not "pay to win" it's running basic gear. Getting that gear at no further cost after AUR doesn't make it P2W or a balance issue it just allows those players who've invested cash into the game a moderately higher rate of net gain while grinding ISK in pubs. None of the BPOs in game are of sufficient potency to be used in competitive play at the tournament or PC level. Most of the BPOs aren't even arguably mid rage gear they are primarily militia grade which is specifically the lowest value gear in the game stat wise. Indeed for the majority of these BPOs the only thing that makes them an AUR item as opposed to an item most players won't have a use for beyond the first few months is the fact that they're unlimited use. Even if cosmetic "skins" and other purely epeen related items were in some why an acceptable swap for this value (which I firmly contend they are not as most players I know who own AUR BPOs have essentially zero interest in cosmetic items) that would still not fix the issue as more than half of the BPOs aren't suits or weapons they are mods which have no visual display presence within game whatsoever. Removing an already purchased item without maintaining equal value is very bad policy indeed. Assuming players value traits of a totally different nature equally isn't a realistic solution nor is devaluing the purchase by arbitrarily assigning an "equivalent" value via ISK savings et al because there isn't one. No amount of savings on low end gear equals an unlimited run low end item and most players won't have any real use for such things. CCP could in theory refund the full current AUR value of all BPOs on the market but not only does that leave various BPOs still in place since they have no market entry it also gluts the game with AUR leaving only a minimal selection of purchase types upon which to use it. Unlike EVE people aren't paying to be in New Eden via Dust. When they invest money into the game they are paying for specific things not general access. As such policies in EVE cannot be directly cross-applied, and even if they could there are free starter ships and tutorial rewards in EVE which are not very dissimilar from current Dust BPOs when considered within the context of "end game" impact on balance and market behavior in game. That is to say they have no impact on upper meta game play or market trading. Yes higher meta BPOs are a terrible idea, and "BPO creep" could push Dust into P2W but translating that into a reactionary removal of player assets which have already been purchased with real world cash is frankly poison to player confidence as well as being functionally unnecessary from both a market and balance point of view. TL;DR - Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. 0.02 ISK ~ Cross
Malkai Inos Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 755	Posted - 2013.07.21 00:00:00 - [34] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: snip If you're interested i've made a crude comparison between the Dollar cost of an average BPO and it's worth in ISK based on (at that time) current PLEX price samples from Jita. Assuming there are no glaring flaws in this comparison i expect BPOs never to break even for the vast majority of players as, based on the assumption that the ISK/$ conversion of Dust will balance itself to about EVE levels, converting the AUR into ISK in more "direct" means yields much more ISK than most BPOs could ever save during their lifetime i.e. the lifetime of the player. I agree that their unlimited nature is a huge draw towards BPOs due to their perceived value in saving ISK for pub grinding but it appears to me that this perceived value is much overestimated - fallacious even. This does not change of course the expected outcry, should CCP try to alter the way current BPOs are handled. It might provide a basis to find a reasonable alternative offer for future BPOs though. I agree that current BPOs are likely here to stay and CCP missed their chance to remove them on 14/5/13 though this thought saddens me a little.
CLONE117 Planetary Response Organization 44	Posted - 2013.07.21 00:03:00 - [35] - Quote y not make them a bpo?
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1327	Posted - 2013.07.24 16:36:00 - [36] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: Cross Atu wrote: snip If you're interested i've made a crude comparison between the Dollar cost of an average BPO and it's worth in ISK based on (at that time) current PLEX price samples from Jita. Assuming there are no glaring flaws in this comparison i expect BPOs never to break even for the vast majority of players as, based on the assumption that the ISK/$ conversion of Dust will balance itself to about EVE levels, converting the AUR into ISK in more "direct" means yields much more ISK than most BPOs could ever save during their lifetime i.e. the lifetime of the player. I agree that their unlimited nature is a huge draw towards BPOs due to their perceived value in saving ISK for pub grinding but it appears to me that this perceived value is much overestimated - fallacious even. This does not change of course the expected outcry, should CCP try to alter the way current BPOs are handled. It might provide a basis to find a reasonable alternative offer for future BPOs though. I agree that current BPOs are likely here to stay and CCP missed their chance to remove them on 14/5/13 though this thought saddens me a little. That's an interesting comparison and I thank you for the link. An aspect which I think is key to the discussion but transcends the direct economic value a bit however is the concept of play style/intensity. In EVE there are nights when a player is tired, distracted, drinking, etc. where they make the choice to run cheaper ships and fits so as to minimize the increased risk do to their current less focused status. It is not infrequent that some players go even further and either alter their activities (say mining as opposed to PvP fleets) or not undocking at all. This is a key aspect for the BPO in Dust because it allows for some of the same compensation on a players part. The merc who has purchased such a BPO is able to sit down and play in a less competitive manner when the situation/their condition calls for it rather than being faced with the more hardline choice of higher risk vs not playing at all. Granted a player could run the equivalent non-BPO fits and still be risking less than running their high end gear but that does not provide the same psychological "nudge" as an 'unlimited' tag does even if for an established player the distinction is nominal. In EVE the wealthy and established players are more likely to impulsively risk assets for their own amusement, and less likely to feel the sting of a loss of they have production capabilities for that same asset secured (as opposed to relying on the market). In Dust there are no players with deep industry roots or a decade of SP, deaths are more common in Dust, and the use cycle for assets is faster (compare the average number of matches per evening to the average number of fleet ops in active groups). With all that considered I'm actually less concerned about the current iteration of BPOs than I was before. Granted I still think any high meta BPOs would be a terrible idea but looking only at the current meta 0-1 offerings we have now within the context of the analysis you provide in your link I'm less inclined to see a problem for the New Eden economy in general. If players are able to produce and sell the gear for D514 in a manner like that currently active in EVE and thus undercut the current NPC seeded market prices the ~average number of matched needed to turn a current BPO "profitable" becomes even higher. This has one of three major results, as I see it, Players who have IRL $ and/or don't do the numbers continue to by BPOs, maybe buying even more Players who crunch the numbers on it use pure ISK gear purchased from players via the secondary market (saving their IRL $ for PLEX or other uses) Players without the desire/means to spend IRL $ on D514 still use pure ISK gear but with more competitive market rates Let's not forget that CCP will control the mins, runs, and production time of all EVE side BPOs once introduced and can tweak those values as required if the market seems to be a problem. Further those base values, whatever they may be, will be subjected to the industrial power of long time toons and corps from the Indy backbone of EVE further maximizing the output of each BPO as skill buffs et al are applied. At the end of the day the main value of current BPOs (outside of some uses for field testing basic fit concepts/mechanics) is a psychological one. It allows players who are less inclined to engage with the market a way to "shortcut" that while still rewarding those players who take the time to assess the economics. It seems like a solid balance for bringing an FPS to New Eden. 0.02 ISK Cross ps ~ since the derived value of a BPO is based on deaths suffered they are greater value to new players and players trying to improve their gun game and less value to vets/tryhards which puts them precisely where AUR items are supposed to be, softening the shock of the learning curve.
Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 367	Posted - 2013.07.24 17:43:00 - [37] - Quote Sardonk Eternia wrote: I think all event reward suits should be BPO and purely cosmetic in nature. Plas One.
Jason Punk DUST University Ivy League 171	Posted - 2013.07.24 21:42:00 - [38] - Quote Solution 3: allow for us to trade on an open market
Niuvo The Phoenix Federation 292	Posted - 2013.07.24 22:12:00 - [39] - Quote interesting thoughts. My suits are in their respected display cases, they have lights too. I am not touching those lol. Better rewards indeed! Say Quafe sponsors the next event, we should get Quafe items e.g. powerful mods. Say we get 100 of those, then people will use them!
THUNDERGROOVE ZionTCD 101	Posted - 2013.07.24 22:21:00 - [40] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: I want to see rewards that are actually rewarding, and practical to use. Paying a bit more ISK to maintain that special flair is definitely worth it, and otherwise, it's kind of a waste of dev-time to make suits, items, and vehicles that barely anyone will ever use because they are collectibles :( I like that, make them BPC's that can only be restocked if you own it already and make them cost like twice as much as each module, weapon, dropsuit, whatever costs all together.

Niuvo The Phoenix Federation 292	Posted - 2013.07.24 22:26:00 - [41] - Quote Can you get the starter fits back if you deleted them? I think not.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 695	Posted - 2013.07.25 00:09:00 - [42] - Quote Necroing this thread. Okay. For everyone saying that "collectibles' would be valuable... one question. Why? I'm going to trade a suit, that will never be used, because it's totally useless on the battlefield, and it's limited in quantity. DO NOT compare the collectibles to officer weapons. Officer weapons have obvious superiority on the battlefield, and that makes their deployment a solid and sound tactical risk. Collectibles do not. They don't even work as a troll, and there's no benefit to bothering to kill someone using it, since you can't get it from them as salvage anyway. All that considered... what makes you think these things will have ANY value as a traded commodity? Even collectible and antique cars can be driven, and if you wreck them, there is always a way to perform repairs. By comparison, these "prize" dropsuits are totally useless garbage if they remain irreplaceable. Give me some logic. Give some real logic beyond sentimentality why these collectibles should continue to be as they are.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 695	Posted - 2013.07.25 00:12:00 - [43] - Quote Niuvo wrote: Can you get the starter fits back if you deleted them? I think not. You can. :) They are forever in your list of dropsuits. Starter Fits are the only ones of their kind. "BPO Sets". They come with their own infinite weapons and modules, just like the Black Eagle suit and others... Only difference? Starter fits are infinite. Is it so hard to make the collectibles function exactly like the starter fits? I think not.
Talos Vagheitan King Slayers 50	Posted - 2013.10.05 16:13:00 - [44] - Quote Well, I'm not ok with this. It's an annoyance to have something you can't make reasonable use of. If I have a "trophy" for participation in some event, then I should be able to show it off in a match indefinitely provided i'm willing to pay the price. How else am I going to be able to show-it-off, if it's in constant danger of permanent, irreplaceable loss?[/quote] That's life brother. The way she goes. I love that there are irreplaceable unique equipment out there. Can set up some cool scenarios. Say in a corp battle way down the road, a squad of scouts decides to deploy the legendary long-forgotten BLack Eagle suits, and turns the tide of a battle. ... Maybe that's a dramatic scenario, but at-least it's possible. So no, I don't think you should be entitled to keep something forever just because you participated in an event. Unless CCP rewards you with a blueprint
Talos Vagheitan King Slayers 50	Posted - 2013.10.05 16:15:00 - [45] - Quote Jathniel wrote: Well, I'm not ok with this. It's an annoyance to have something you can't make reasonable use of. If I have a "trophy" for participation in some event, then I should be able to show it off in a match indefinitely provided i'm willing to pay the price. How else am I going to be able to show-it-off, if it's in constant danger of permanent, irreplaceable loss? That's life brother. The way she goes. I love that there are irreplaceable unique equipment out there. Can set up some cool scenarios. Say in a corp battle way down the road, a squad of scouts decides to deploy the legendary long-forgotten BLack Eagle suits, and turns the tide of a battle. ... Maybe that's a dramatic scenario, but at-least it's possible. So no, I don't think you should be entitled to keep something forever just because you participated in an event. Unless CCP rewards you with a blueprint
Slag Emberforge Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic 12	Posted - 2013.10.05 21:52:00 - [46] - Quote Sardonk Eternia wrote: I think all event reward suits should be BPO and purely cosmetic in nature. Best idea in the thread, a piece of flair that shows you participated or at least gives a bit of variety without giving any advantage worth QQing over. I never use the limited stock items I've received from events, it's a shame they just there gathering dust. ahem
deepfried salad gilliam Sanguine Knights 23	Posted - 2013.10.06 01:46:00 - [47] - Quote I'm waiting for the player market so I can sell them and all my officer weapons
deepfried salad gilliam Sanguine Knights 23	Posted - 2013.10.06 01:54:00 - [48] - Quote Say 1000 people got 100 of a good event suit 10,000 of them are sold on the player market (planned) there you go replenishable for a steep price, 3 months later some more are sold for an even bigger price and in a year the last few are sold and used It will happen and it will be very useful


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