DUST Search - What makes a weapon OP?

Cody Sietz wrote:

I'd like to discuss what makes a weapon OP.

A OP weapon is not something you get killed by alot, its something you can not kill no matter what. A weapon with no counter. A shotguns weekness is its short range, a snipers weakness is its terrible CQC and so on.

Many people using a weapon does not mean its OP, but many people will use a weapon if its OP.

In my opinion, its a very simple. If a weapon can not be countered AT ALL, it is OP. The TAC was far too amazing no matter how you slice it. You couldn't sneak up and kill someone with it, because they would turn around, unload a few hip fire rounds and you were dead.

Mass drivers last build were good, but they got to the point that you could not get anyway near someone using it without them blowing you up.

Lasers were not OP, just the Viziam (now they are all terrible)

HMGs had no counter, I'm sorry heavys, but you should not be able to insta kill me from more then 30 meters.

Shotguns:read HMG

Flaylocks are not OP, they need no balance to how they are used on the field, just how they are applied off field. Make the core have a very slight increase to its PG requirement. Thats it.

Thats all I got. Btw I'm a AR/plasma cannon user (and I think plasma cannons are fine, they just suffer from the same blast radius glitch all explosive weapons suffer from)

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Cody Sietz Tritan's Onslaught RISE of LEGION 229	Posted - 2013.06.24 19:45:00 - [1] - Quote I'd like to discuss what makes a weapon OP. A OP weapon is not something you get killed by alot, its something you can not kill no matter what. A weapon with no counter. A shotguns weekness is its short range, a snipers weakness is its terrible CQC and so on. Many people using a weapon does not mean its OP, but many people will use a weapon if its OP. In my opinion, its a very simple. If a weapon can not be countered AT ALL, it is OP. The TAC was far too amazing no matter how you slice it. You couldn't sneak up and kill someone with it, because they would turn around, unload a few hip fire rounds and you were dead. Mass drivers last build were good, but they got to the point that you could not get anyway near someone using it without them blowing you up. Lasers were not OP, just the Viziam (now they are all terrible) HMGs had no counter, I'm sorry heavys, but you should not be able to insta kill me from more then 30 meters. Shotguns:read HMG Flaylocks are not OP, they need no balance to how they are used on the field, just how they are applied off field. Make the core have a very slight increase to its PG requirement. Thats it. Thats all I got. Btw I'm a AR/plasma cannon user (and I think plasma cannons are fine, they just suffer from the same blast radius glitch all explosive weapons suffer from)
TEBOW BAGGINS Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 610	Posted - 2013.06.24 19:56:00 - [2] - Quote yea the laser got mothballed, i cant remember seeing one this build the MD last build could counter most heavies, was a really good fight MD vs HMG, dont recomnend it now tho if you use nerfed MD i'm seeing an odd creodron AR here and there, but the shotgun outclasses it as a CQC wep. the freedom MD this build can still kill shotgunner scouts but gets r@ped by the creodron AR
Jammer Jalapeno BIG BAD W0LVES Eternal Syndicate 36	Posted - 2013.06.24 19:57:00 - [3] - Quote Very informative! I would have to say I do agree with all of this.
hooc roht Deep Space Republic 75	Posted - 2013.06.24 19:59:00 - [4] - Quote Quote: HMGs had no counter, I'm sorry heavys, but you should not be able to insta kill me from more then 30 meters. Huh? An AR does wonders to an HMG. Just shoot from cover and from far away. If the HMG hides chuck nades at him. Why is this not obvious to anyone? Also scouts can flank and sneak up on em pretty easy.
Dust Project 514 Dust Evo 514 41	Posted - 2013.06.24 20:13:00 - [5] - Quote The reason people cry OP is because they get killed many times by a top level weapons (that they do not realise is also UPGRADED with proficiency and dmg mods). Top level weapons should kill easily against anyone who doesn't have top level shields/armor. People don't comaplain about Pro Scrambler Pistols because not enough people use them because they don't realise that you can 1 shot kill almost anyone with maxed out stats with mods. You don't see people complaining about STD or ADV weapons. That's why I suggest a price increase on pro infantry weapons, so that their power would make sense for how much they cost. The most they cost, the less people will use them.
Knight SoIaire Better Hide R Die D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 884	Posted - 2013.06.24 20:17:00 - [6] - Quote To me a weapon that is OP is a weapon that works too well outside its dedicated role. The TAC AR for example was supposed to be a medium to long range AR, but it was just as effective in CQC pre-nerf.
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 309	Posted - 2013.06.24 20:23:00 - [7] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: HMGs had no counter, I'm sorry heavys, but you should not be able to insta kill me from more then 30 meters. The HMG was overpowered with Sharpshooter. I'll admit it. Right now it's more like a steady-stream Damage-over-Time Shotgun than anything else, though. It still works well enough if you use it like that. I just think it should do enough damage at range to give red dots the urge to duck under cover, rather than stand and lol. Otherwise the word "suppression" is meaningless. (In EVE terms: high damage, short optimal, decent falloff) As for what makes something Over Powered, I don't think it totally hinges on whether something has a counter or not. It hinges on whether the counter is practical. For instance: Flux grenades are a possible counter to Caldari Logis. It's impractical for every single player to carry flux grenades just to deal with that one, very popular suit.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3984	Posted - 2013.06.24 20:27:00 - [8] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: Flaylocks are not OP Ahh, the real reason for this thread.
Dao Ferret BetaMax. CRONOS. 100	Posted - 2013.06.24 20:28:00 - [9] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: ... As for what makes something Over Powered, I don't think it totally hinges on whether something has a counter or not. It hinges on whether the counter is practical. For instance: Flux grenades are a possible counter to Caldari Logis. It's impractical for every single player to carry flux grenades just to deal with that one, very popular suit. ... especially while also dealing with LAV spam which has the easy counter of AV Grenades
Crash Monster Snipers Anonymous 762	Posted - 2013.06.24 20:54:00 - [10] - Quote Maybe the kill screen should show the damage modifier percent on the weapon... so they see that it is not just the weapon itself doing the damage?

DeadlyAztec11 Max-Pain-inc 546	Posted - 2013.06.24 21:06:00 - [11] - Quote An OP weapon is a weapon that is much better then all other weapons of the same class. While having little to no down sides, it also has a small learning curve. Boom OP weapon.
Colonel Killar DUST CORE DARKSTAR ARMY 20	Posted - 2013.06.24 22:06:00 - [12] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: An OP weapon is a weapon that is much better then all other weapons of the same class. While having little to no down sides, it also has a small learning curve. Boom OP weapon. You sound like you're decribing the normal AR
DeadlyAztec11 Max-Pain-inc 547	Posted - 2013.06.24 22:12:00 - [13] - Quote Colonel Killar wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: An OP weapon is a weapon that is much better then all other weapons of the same class. While having little to no down sides, it also has a small learning curve. Boom OP weapon. You sound like you're decribing the normal AR Yep, though, the AR is suppose to be easy. Hard to make a weapon that is suppose to be competitive at both long range and short range, stand in line with more specialized variants like Shotguns and Sniper Rifles. With the AR, you sacrifice using a specialized weapon and you cannot use it on vehicles.
Spkr4theDead Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 200	Posted - 2013.06.24 22:32:00 - [14] - Quote Cody, if you were getting killed by a heavy with an HMG every time you went up against one, then you were doing it wrong. I was outgunned by a militia AR when using a Boundless. Your opinion is invalided by my experience.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1752	Posted - 2013.06.24 22:33:00 - [15] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: Mass drivers last build were good, but they got to the point that you could not get anyway near someone using it without them blowing you up. They tend to suicide in CQC (the higher tier you get, the easier this is to do), and they have a very hard time hitting above them. They were also considered (as heavily agreed upon in a thread) as the weapon that requires the most practice to be good with. (the title is currently held by plasma cannons) Cody Sietz wrote: HMGs had no counter, I'm sorry heavys, but you should not be able to insta kill me from more then 30 meters. Remote explosives and scouts Cody Sietz wrote: Shotguns:read HMG Anything explosive, or automatic weapons (although I agree they were a bit ridiculous at operation/sharpshooter 5) Cody Sietz wrote: Flaylocks are not OP, they need no balance to how they are used on the field, just how they are applied off field. Make the core have a very slight increase to its PG requirement. Thats it. The RoF is what needs to be fixed. They easily destroy all other sidearms (hell, all other weapons) in cqc because they can fire so quickly. They would be fine if they had mass driver RoF Cody Sietz wrote: I think plasma cannons are fine, they just suffer from the same blast radius glitch all explosive weapons suffer from I actually made an alt that uses plasma cannons. I personally think that they just need to improve more as the tiers increase. Players seem to not understand where you should use these (they're best in high-cover areas for supporting your team- not killing in the open 1v1)
Spkr4theDead Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 200	Posted - 2013.06.24 22:35:00 - [16] - Quote Dust Project 514 wrote: The reason people cry OP is because they get killed many times by a top level weapons (that they do not realise is also UPGRADED with proficiency and dmg mods). It was mathematically proven that the Duvolle TAR was on par with the Scattered Ion Cannon. I don't see how you can't consider that overpowered.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1996	Posted - 2013.06.24 22:39:00 - [17] - Quote Overpowered is an out of line efficacy/effort ratio. Efficacy is how much damage something is, effective ranges, ehp, repairs, etc. Effort is easy of use, tracking, required accuracy, time investment, fitting investment, etc.
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 310	Posted - 2013.06.24 22:46:00 - [18] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: With the AR, you sacrifice using a specialized weapon and you cannot use it on vehicles. There's no sacrifice to using a "non-specialized" weapon when the generalist weapon is good at everything. That said, I don't the the AR is overpowered since the TAC nerf. It's good, it's popular, but I don't think it's overpowered. Honestly, I don't think any weapon is really OP with the game the way it is. It's the opposite: some things have been nerfed way too much to hell. Give lazorz some love, CCP! (Suit balance is a different issue from weapon balance, however...)
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 1882	Posted - 2013.06.24 23:08:00 - [19] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: With the AR, you sacrifice using a specialized weapon And why would I want to use a specialized weapon if an AR is just as good at doing that specialized weapons role? frankly the only thing it can't do is shoot at a range, considering the only weapon ATM that can is the sniper rifle, why should I not use an AR? You would think being specialized would make other weapons better at their own roles... but they're not. Currently all you need is an AR/SCR and flaylock/SMG, why would I use anything else?
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 1882	Posted - 2013.06.24 23:14:00 - [20] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Overpowered is an out of line efficacy/effort ratio. Efficacy is how much damage something is, effective ranges, ehp, repairs, etc. Effort is easy of use, tracking, required accuracy, time investment, fitting investment, etc. And you should know that the effort needed to do something is almost never proportional to the rewards, that is the reason for "noob tubes" they're meant to be low effort, mid-high reward weapons, and as long as a weapon that's harder to use has better rewards, then it''s all fine. Can a scrambler out damage a flaylock? Yes, with headshots Is it easy? No, it;'s not, but the higher rewards are there if you have the skills for it. Does that make the flaylock OP? Not necessarily, it might very well be, but not because it's a "noob tube"

Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES Eternal Syndicate 361	Posted - 2013.06.24 23:17:00 - [21] - Quote hooc roht wrote: Quote: HMGs had no counter, I'm sorry heavys, but you should not be able to insta kill me from more then 30 meters. Huh? An AR does wonders to an HMG. Just shoot from cover and from far away. If the HMG hides chuck nades at him. Why is this not obvious to anyone? Also scouts can flank and sneak up on em pretty easy. I dropped so many heavies in chrome witha toxin. also toe to toe the GEK spanked heavies
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 1882	Posted - 2013.06.24 23:25:00 - [22] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Flaylocks are not OP, they need no balance to how they are used on the field, just how they are applied off field. Make the core have a very slight increase to its PG requirement. Thats it. The RoF is what needs to be fixed. They easily destroy all other sidearms (hell, all other weapons) in cqc because they can fire so quickly. They would be fine if they had mass driver RoF [/quote] Dafuq is this crap? A reasonable nerf? Not on these forums, **** or GTFO!
Washlee Not Guilty EoN. 168	Posted - 2013.06.24 23:25:00 - [23] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: I'd like to discuss what makes a weapon OP. A OP weapon is not something you get killed by alot, its something you can not kill no matter what. A weapon with no counter. A shotguns weekness is its short range, a snipers weakness is its terrible CQC and so on. Many people using a weapon does not mean its OP, but many people will use a weapon if its OP. In my opinion, its a very simple. If a weapon can not be countered AT ALL, it is OP. The TAC was far too amazing no matter how you slice it. You couldn't sneak up and kill someone with it, because they would turn around, unload a few hip fire rounds and you were dead. Mass drivers last build were good, but they got to the point that you could not get anyway near someone using it without them blowing you up. Lasers were not OP, just the Viziam (now they are all terrible) HMGs had no counter, I'm sorry heavys, but you should not be able to insta kill me from more then 30 meters. Shotguns:read HMG Flaylocks are not OP, they need no balance to how they are used on the field, just how they are applied off field. Make the core have a very slight increase to its PG requirement. Thats it. Thats all I got. Btw I'm a AR/plasma cannon user (and I think plasma cannons are fine, they just suffer from the same blast radius glitch all explosive weapons suffer from) Plasma Cannon user 0.0 I rarely ever get killed by those But very nice post and you are very right about the lasers CCP's Just puts the full force of the nerf hammer when people QQ
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 310	Posted - 2013.06.24 23:59:00 - [24] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: also toe to toe the GEK spanked heavies That's a whole bunch of nonsense. There are only a few handfuls of players I can't spank toe to toe if I have most my HP. The list includes good shotgunners, excellent heavies, and top ranked AR users. The AR users win by exceptional dancing. If you beat a good HMG Heavy toe to toe, you had to work for it.
Schalac 17 Dedicated Individuals Committed to Killing 273	Posted - 2013.06.25 00:02:00 - [25] - Quote Noobs dying to it a lot.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 2073	Posted - 2013.06.25 00:21:00 - [26] - Quote People confuse the term OP with game breaking. An OP game mechanic is basically overpowered, usually deemed by the amount of tears it generates even if there's an effective counter, weakness or downside. (Caldari logi) Game breaking is what people need to be looking for in this, or any game and applies to game mechanics that are exploitative and transcend all balance. (Pre-~~nerf~~ rebalance TAR)
Crash Monster Snipers Anonymous 765	Posted - 2013.06.25 00:35:00 - [27] - Quote Alternate answer to the OP... sensitive thumbs. Either the game has had some aiming mods or my thumbs are getting trained up... either way I like it.
Godin Thekiller Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack 181	Posted - 2013.06.25 02:23:00 - [28] - Quote AV grenades: no counter. They are unavoidable if they lock on to you, and have way too high damage.
DeadlyAztec11 Max-Pain-inc 549	Posted - 2013.06.25 02:35:00 - [29] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: With the AR, you sacrifice using a specialized weapon And why would I want to use a specialized weapon if an AR is just as good at doing that specialized weapons role? frankly the only thing it can't do is shoot at a range, considering the only weapon ATM that can is the sniper rifle, why should I not use an AR? You would think being specialized would make other weapons better at their own roles... but they're not. Currently all you need is an AR/SCR and flaylock/SMG, why would I use anything else? Ask Maken Tosch why he uses Knives. Scrambler pistol is beast, one shot scouts in the head. Enough small talk. If you play very aggressive in close quarters you could use the Shotgun, it may have been nerfed, though, it is far from useless. The only things that need to be touched are the MD, HMG and Laser rifle. They all need to be buffed, the HMG needs a VERY small buff. By your logic, there is no need for the Laser Rifle, Scrambler Rifle, Tactical Sniper Rifle, SMG or Shotgun. On the basis that the AR can function well in all of their ideal ranges. Through specialization, you can more adequately perform your chosen role. You could also argue why someone would ever want to use a forge gun over proto packed AV grenades and a proto nanohive. For that same argument, why would someone ever want to use a Laser rifle VS a Scrambler rifle? The answer is that it is different. Same reason we are given assault, breach, tactical and burst variants. They are different, if not always better.
Cody Sietz Tritan's Onslaught RISE of LEGION 235	Posted - 2013.06.25 18:23:00 - [30] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: Flaylocks are not OP Ahh, the real reason for this thread. XD No, I hate those little suckers. Im a gallente assault and those things tear through my armour.



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