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Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1909	Posted - 2013.06.14 04:30:00 - [1] - Quote Reduce PG and CPU, and then give it per-level bonuses to reduction of PG and CPU required to fit Nanite Injectors, Nanohives, and Repair Tools. Basically, set them up so they can have an ok tank and carry a Light Weapon, but such that trying to fit them like Assault suits doesn't work. Then we can work on trying to make Assault suits better at their role.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1645	Posted - 2013.06.14 05:27:00 - [2] - Quote Or you can just make the Caldari logi's racial bonus not stack with the shield extender bonus and leave the other suits alone. Minmatar and Gallente are spot on, but the Amarr needs a CPU/PG buff. Caldari is the OP one because the extender efficiency bonus stacks with their racial, giving them +%35 shield on every extender they equip.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1920	Posted - 2013.06.14 05:34:00 - [3] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Or you can just make the Caldari logi's racial bonus not stack with the shield extender bonus and leave the other suits alone. Minmatar and Gallente are spot on, but the Amarr needs a CPU/PG buff. Caldari is the OP one because the extender efficiency bonus stacks with their racial, giving them +%35 shield on every extender they equip. Well the Caldari Logi suit is a no-brainer. That thing is unbalanced as hell.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1645	Posted - 2013.06.14 05:45:00 - [4] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Well the Caldari Logi suit is a no-brainer. That thing is unbalanced as hell. Exactly my point. I've been arguing against an entire logi wide nerf for weeks and when I ask how the other suits are OP enough to warrant a nerf, nobody can come up with an answer. Just look at their base stats compared to the basic frame and assault variants. A suit's role is determined by their base stats and slot allocation. Unlike other defined suits like assaults, heavies, and scouts, logis sacrifice their base stats and a sidearm for more slots. If a logi fits themselves to operate like an assault, they're paying (ISK) to do so through modules and will only be so effective because they don't have a sidearm. (Amarr only gets one at proto level) Since the TAC AR nerf, a logi assault is still an assault with inferior stats, no sidearm and a more expensive suit SP and ISK wise.
RECON BY FIRE Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 194	Posted - 2013.06.14 15:17:00 - [5] - Quote More than just the Caldari Logi needs a nerf, however PG/CPU is the last thing that needs to be nerfed on Logis. That just doesn't even make sense at all, how would they run high end equipment like theyre supposed to without good PG/CPU? Instead, as Cosgar mentioned, things like the Caldari Logis bonus needs to be changed. As well as across all logis the built in suit rep bonus needs to be changed across the board to a reduction in PG/CPU of equipment (yes that means Gallente would receive an overall of either 40 or 50% decrease in PG/CPU of equipment), and the shield recharge delay needs to be brought in line with that of their Assault suit counterparts. Both of those are things that help make all the Logis, and especially the Caldari Logi, better than their Assault suit counterparts. Why should I run an armor Assault suit when the Logi gets a built in rep bonus so I can run more plates and less reps making me more sustainable? Why should I run a shield Assault suit when the shield recharge delay on the Logis are so low and with a couple regulators makes it almost instant? Sure in the latter example Assault suits get more HP/s regen, but Logis can have similar with a Shield Recharger and as mentioned they start regenning quicker.
Funkmaster Whale 0uter.Heaven League of Infamy 15	Posted - 2013.06.14 15:53:00 - [6] - Quote The Caldari Logi specifically needs to be looked at. Most people right now are running them as beefed up Assault suits because they have the most customizability of any suit in the game. 5 high and 4 low slots on top of the most CPU/PG as well as the best racial bonus make them able to do anything they want. I don't understand how CCP let something like that slip through the pipelines. You can literally do anything you want with that suit, even going as far as matching a heavy's EHP while still being faster and able to carry equipment. Looking at that suit makes it seem to me that CCP doesn't even bother to do any internal testing before releasing. Every top corp in PC that I've faced steamrolls the battlefield with their Caldari Logis of Death. Some of them don't even bother to carry equipment, instead choosing to stack Complex Extenders, Damage mods, and Shield Regulators at no negative cost to them. All of the suits need another balance pass and CCP needs to release the stats before they release another monstrously imbalanced suit. It doesn't matter one bit what CCP intends the suit to do, it's what people will do with the suit that matters. As soon as people saw how incredible those stats were and that they weren't changing them, all the min/maxers flocked to it and started running God-mode Assaults with them. Then on the other hand you have the Caldari Assault which has the most useless bonus (10% reload on hybrid at level 5). So putting ~2.5 million skill points into Caldari Assault gets you a worse suit stat-wise (4H/3L vs 5H/4L and way less CPU/PG) and a bonus which shaves off fractions of a second on reload (.3 seconds on ARs for example). Im so baffled by how they choose these bonuses.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 252	Posted - 2013.06.14 16:07:00 - [7] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Reduce PG and CPU, and then give it per-level bonuses to reduction of PG and CPU required to fit Nanite Injectors, Nanohives, and Repair Tools. Basically, set them up so they can have an ok tank and carry a Light Weapon, but such that trying to fit them like Assault suits doesn't work. Then we can work on trying to make Assault suits better at their role. My survivability is my priority if I die I cannot support, if my CPU/PG is lowered I will compensate by downgrading/removing equipment.
Funkmaster Whale 0uter.Heaven League of Infamy 15	Posted - 2013.06.14 16:44:00 - [8] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Reduce PG and CPU, and then give it per-level bonuses to reduction of PG and CPU required to fit Nanite Injectors, Nanohives, and Repair Tools. Basically, set them up so they can have an ok tank and carry a Light Weapon, but such that trying to fit them like Assault suits doesn't work. Then we can work on trying to make Assault suits better at their role. My survivability is my priority if I die I cannot support, if my CPU/PG is lowered I will compensate by downgrading/removing equipment. Even by running complex modules I can barely survive as it is now, and yes I use all 4 of my equipment slots. Logistics are no were near OP (Except the Caldari Logistics), specially the Gallente logistics who is the weakest of all medium suits. A logistics should have lower speed and lower EHP than its assault variant, and they do except the Caldari, with the only perk of being able to equip more and better equipment; wouldn't it be more logical to just raise the CPU/PG of the assault? Also I compare builds all the time and in no scenario was any logistics able to equip better modules than a assault suit, in fact they can both equip the same amount of modules, unless the logistics maxes out low slots with armor plates but in that case he is just super easy to kill. The only difference when adding modules to an assault is that he reaches the CPU/PG cap faster if the suit doesn't invest into CPU/PG skills early, but all suits need to invest of these skills so this is a null point. Here is my build comparison post, feel free to make copies and mess with the module configurations. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=905267 I don't think any of the Logis are broken except Caldari. The topic is sort of worded bad because most people probably encounter a vast majority of Caldari Logis and then go and complain about Logis in general when it's just that one suit.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1580	Posted - 2013.06.14 17:00:00 - [9] - Quote Maybe just a flat out reduction to the fitting costs of all equipment. Logis are more than just direct support you know.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1675	Posted - 2013.06.14 17:34:00 - [10] - Quote I'll be glad when EWAR modules come out so we can stop having the nerf logi argument...

Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1943	Posted - 2013.06.15 05:48:00 - [11] - Quote More what I'm saying is that the Logi suit is about as OP as the Tac AR was. The Tac AR, contrary to what some people here have said, was NEVER overpowered. It did exactly what it was supposed to, but it was also good at a few too many other things as well. Logistics suits aren't overpowered, but rather good at many different roles. Basically, our current Logistics suits are "Jack-of-all-Trades" suits. You can fit them in a variety of ways and have them fill that role you made for them perfectly. While the other suits push more specialization, these suits are the Tech-III ships of Dust, allowing you to basically make them do whatever you wish. They don't make you magically better than everyone else, but they let you be far more flexible in the number of uses you can get from a single suit.
RECON BY FIRE Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 194	Posted - 2013.06.16 03:56:00 - [12] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: More what I'm saying is that the Logi suit is about as OP as the Tac AR was. The Tac AR, contrary to what some people here have said, was NEVER overpowered. It did exactly what it was supposed to, but it was also good at a few too many other things as well. Logistics suits aren't overpowered, but rather good at many different roles. Basically, our current Logistics suits are "Jack-of-all-Trades" suits. You can fit them in a variety of ways and have them fill that role you made for them perfectly. While the other suits push more specialization, these suits are the Tech-III ships of Dust, allowing you to basically make them do whatever you wish. They don't make you magically better than everyone else, but they let you be far more flexible in the number of uses you can get from a single suit. In reference to the bolded section, you are officially among the most ignorant people on these forums. I am convinced more than ever that you do not legitimately play this game whatsoever.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1948	Posted - 2013.06.16 04:07:00 - [13] - Quote RECON BY FIRE wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: More what I'm saying is that the Logi suit is about as OP as the Tac AR was. The Tac AR, contrary to what some people here have said, was NEVER overpowered. It did exactly what it was supposed to, but it was also good at a few too many other things as well. Logistics suits aren't overpowered, but rather good at many different roles. Basically, our current Logistics suits are "Jack-of-all-Trades" suits. You can fit them in a variety of ways and have them fill that role you made for them perfectly. While the other suits push more specialization, these suits are the Tech-III ships of Dust, allowing you to basically make them do whatever you wish. They don't make you magically better than everyone else, but they let you be far more flexible in the number of uses you can get from a single suit. In reference to the bolded section, you are officially among the most ignorant people on these forums. I am convinced more than ever that you do not legitimately play this game whatsoever. Really? If you think I'm saying that the Tac AR nerf was not needed, you misunderstood me. The problem with the Tac AR that is shared with the current Logistics suits is that they perform too many roles, not that they perform too well persay. I could still reliably kill a Tac AR user in CQC with a Breach Rifle if my aim was good and I timed my attack properly. The TAR is a long-range, high damage weapon, and it filled that role perfectly. The only issue with it was that it filled other roles quite well in addition, making the weapons designed for those roles obsolete. I would define an OP assets as something like the old Large Missile launchers. While all missiles were far too effective at killing infantry, the one thing that made them truly OP was their ability to one-shot any armor tank, no matter how well the operator fit it. They were an asset that performed the role that was intended, but did damage far outside of what they should have. That is what I would define as OP. The Tac AR, and the Logi suits right now, are merely an asset that performs too many roles. Rather than a blanket nerf or a major stat adjustment, what the current Logi suits need is a series of small changes, like those made to the Tac AR, that will push them into their intended role and allow the other Medium Frames to shine. That is the point I am trying to make.
RECON BY FIRE Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 194	Posted - 2013.06.16 04:18:00 - [14] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: RECON BY FIRE wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: More what I'm saying is that the Logi suit is about as OP as the Tac AR was. The Tac AR, contrary to what some people here have said, was NEVER overpowered. It did exactly what it was supposed to, but it was also good at a few too many other things as well. Logistics suits aren't overpowered, but rather good at many different roles. Basically, our current Logistics suits are "Jack-of-all-Trades" suits. You can fit them in a variety of ways and have them fill that role you made for them perfectly. While the other suits push more specialization, these suits are the Tech-III ships of Dust, allowing you to basically make them do whatever you wish. They don't make you magically better than everyone else, but they let you be far more flexible in the number of uses you can get from a single suit. In reference to the bolded section, you are officially among the most ignorant people on these forums. I am convinced more than ever that you do not legitimately play this game whatsoever. Really? If you think I'm saying that the Tac AR nerf was not needed, you misunderstood me. The problem with the Tac AR that is shared with the current Logistics suits is that they perform too many roles, not that they perform too well persay. I could still reliably kill a Tac AR user in CQC with a Breach Rifle if my aim was good and I timed my attack properly. The TAR is a long-range, high damage weapon, and it filled that role perfectly. The only issue with it was that it filled other roles quite well in addition, making the weapons designed for those roles obsolete. I would define an OP assets as something like the old Large Missile launchers. While all missiles were far too effective at killing infantry, the one thing that made them truly OP was their ability to one-shot any armor tank, no matter how well the operator fit it. They were an asset that performed the role that was intended, but did damage far outside of what they should have. That is what I would define as OP. The Tac AR, and the Logi suits right now, are merely an asset that performs too many roles. Rather than a blanket nerf or a major stat adjustment, what the current Logi suits need is a series of small changes, like those made to the Tac AR, that will push them into their intended role and allow the other Medium Frames to shine. That is the point I am trying to make. Your clarification merely proves my point. Being too good at too many roles makes something overpowered. Lets just spell it fully out since it seems you may be forgetting what OP stands for. To say otherwise is completely foolish. "The TAC AR wasn't OP, it was simply too good at too many roles. Therefore, it merely is overly good but certainly not overpowered. Its not that it asserted its dominance over other weapons in every way and being more powerful than they were in their own respective classes or nothing like that sticks foot in mouth." Your claim to "reliably kill" TAC users pre-nerf with a Breach AR also once again shows that you DO NOT legitimately play this game. Anybody who was not a Caldari Logi or a Heavy were consistently 2 to 6 shotted by the TAC. Most of the time there was rarely any time to even react before TAC users downed their opponents. You seriously need to discontinue giving feedback on this game because your suggestions are severely misinformed.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1156	Posted - 2013.06.16 05:44:00 - [15] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: More what I'm saying is that the Logi suit is about as OP as the Tac AR was. The Tac AR, contrary to what some people here have said, was NEVER overpowered. It did exactly what it was supposed to, but it was also good at a few too many other things as well. Logistics suits aren't overpowered, but rather good at many different roles. Basically, our current Logistics suits are "Jack-of-all-Trades" suits. You can fit them in a variety of ways and have them fill that role you made for them perfectly. While the other suits push more specialization, these suits are the Tech-III ships of Dust, allowing you to basically make them do whatever you wish. They don't make you magically better than everyone else, but they let you be far more flexible in the number of uses you can get from a single suit. Numbers and screenshots or it didn't happen Seriously tho the old TAR was completely broken and any assessment to the contrary is simply an outright lack of testing/dismissal of evidence. Prior to the nerf the TAR was able to kill LAVs at range, was able to do more damage than a Laser at optimal, was able to kill shotgunners in CQC after the shotty fired off it's first blast... and the list goes on that way. The simple and obvious saturation of the weapon speaks volumes on it's own, when a single weapon is more common on the field than many weapon types it's a good bet that weapon is pushing beyond proper balance. The Cal Logi suit is not overpowered but the Cal Logi racial skill pretty clearly is. I've been laying this option out in many threads for most of the build and have yet to see an example in response. Build me a combat viable Logi fit that follows these rules Build best fit with it's racial Assault counterpart to establish a baseline Build the Logi fit to meet or exceed all stats of the Assault suit, without omitting or cheery picking from the stat block Build the above fits without use of the AR Build the above fits without use of the Cal Logi suit OR without including any skill buffs in listed stats. After normalizing stats (i.e. fitting to at least match as per #2) make best efforts to fill open slots. Tally SP required to unlock/fit all mods used for the fitting Tally ISK cost of the fitting including all mods and suits List the results Thus far all results I've seen have come down to the following. Assault suits get more value out of passive skills due to higher on board stats Assault suits fits cost less ISK/SP on average for comparable fits Logi suits have 2-3 extra Equipment slots Logi suits can hyper specialize into a single area at the expense of falling short in all/nearly all other areas Risk vs Reward - If a fit costs more ISK, more SP and still retains other limits then it's not broken Racial Skills - The racial buff on the Cal Logi needs toned down, and the racial skills for the Assault suits need some love to give them better 'gank' value. The Logi line =/= the Cal Logi. The Cal Logi suit =/= the Cal Logi suit + it's racial skill The OP'ness of the Cal Logi suit + racial skill =/= the OP'ness of the pre nerf TAR which did not cost more ISK or SP than other weapons of the same Meta nor did it require specialization within fittings to excel or have a list of inferior stats within its block. Being able to do too many things too well at once/at the same cost is most certainly a balance issue and that's what the TAR did. That is a threshold that even the Cal Logi suit (with it's currently OP racial buff) cannot attain in equal measure, even less so is it something the entire dropsuit line is capable of. 0.02 ISK Cross
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1949	Posted - 2013.06.16 06:26:00 - [16] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: More what I'm saying is that the Logi suit is about as OP as the Tac AR was. The Tac AR, contrary to what some people here have said, was NEVER overpowered. It did exactly what it was supposed to, but it was also good at a few too many other things as well. Logistics suits aren't overpowered, but rather good at many different roles. Basically, our current Logistics suits are "Jack-of-all-Trades" suits. You can fit them in a variety of ways and have them fill that role you made for them perfectly. While the other suits push more specialization, these suits are the Tech-III ships of Dust, allowing you to basically make them do whatever you wish. They don't make you magically better than everyone else, but they let you be far more flexible in the number of uses you can get from a single suit. Numbers and screenshots or it didn't happen Seriously tho the old TAR was completely broken and any assessment to the contrary is simply an outright lack of testing/dismissal of evidence. Prior to the nerf the TAR was able to kill LAVs at range, was able to do more damage than a Laser at optimal, was able to kill shotgunners in CQC after the shotty fired off it's first blast... and the list goes on that way. The simple and obvious saturation of the weapon speaks volumes on it's own, when a single weapon is more common on the field than many weapon types it's a good bet that weapon is pushing beyond proper balance. The Cal Logi suit is not overpowered but the Cal Logi racial skill pretty clearly is. I've been laying this option out in many threads for most of the build and have yet to see an example in response. Build me a combat viable Logi fit that follows these rules Build best fit with it's racial Assault counterpart to establish a baseline Build the Logi fit to meet or exceed all stats of the Assault suit, without omitting or cheery picking from the stat block Build the above fits without use of the AR Build the above fits without use of the Cal Logi suit OR without including any skill buffs in listed stats. After normalizing stats (i.e. fitting to at least match as per #2) make best efforts to fill open slots. Tally SP required to unlock/fit all mods used for the fitting Tally ISK cost of the fitting including all mods and suits List the results Thus far all results I've seen have come down to the following. Assault suits get more value out of passive skills due to higher on board stats Assault suits fits cost less ISK/SP on average for comparable fits Logi suits have 2-3 extra Equipment slots Logi suits can hyper specialize into a single area at the expense of falling short in all/nearly all other areas Risk vs Reward - If a fit costs more ISK, more SP and still retains other limits then it's not broken Racial Skills - The racial buff on the Cal Logi needs toned down, and the racial skills for the Assault suits need some love to give them better 'gank' value. The Logi line =/= the Cal Logi. The Cal Logi suit =/= the Cal Logi suit + it's racial skill The OP'ness of the Cal Logi suit + racial skill =/= the OP'ness of the pre nerf TAR which did not cost more ISK or SP than other weapons of the same Meta nor did it require specialization within fittings to excel or have a list of inferior stats within its block. Being able to do too many things too well at once/at the same cost is most certainly a balance issue and that's what the TAR did. That is a threshold that even the Cal Logi suit (with it's currently OP racial buff) cannot attain in equal measure, even less so is it something the entire dropsuit line is capable of. 0.02 ISK Cross I agree. Like I said, the issue with the weapon was that it did too many things. Similarly, the Caldari Logi bonus allows it to do too many things, but specifically be a better Assault suit than any of the ones that were designed to fill that role.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1157	Posted - 2013.06.16 07:34:00 - [17] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: More what I'm saying is that the Logi suit is about as OP as the Tac AR was. The Tac AR, contrary to what some people here have said, was NEVER overpowered. It did exactly what it was supposed to, but it was also good at a few too many other things as well. Logistics suits aren't overpowered, but rather good at many different roles. Basically, our current Logistics suits are "Jack-of-all-Trades" suits. You can fit them in a variety of ways and have them fill that role you made for them perfectly. While the other suits push more specialization, these suits are the Tech-III ships of Dust, allowing you to basically make them do whatever you wish. They don't make you magically better than everyone else, but they let you be far more flexible in the number of uses you can get from a single suit. Numbers and screenshots or it didn't happen Seriously tho the old TAR was completely broken and any assessment to the contrary is simply an outright lack of testing/dismissal of evidence. Prior to the nerf the TAR was able to kill LAVs at range, was able to do more damage than a Laser at optimal, was able to kill shotgunners in CQC after the shotty fired off it's first blast... and the list goes on that way. The simple and obvious saturation of the weapon speaks volumes on it's own, when a single weapon is more common on the field than many weapon types it's a good bet that weapon is pushing beyond proper balance. The Cal Logi suit is not overpowered but the Cal Logi racial skill pretty clearly is. I've been laying this option out in many threads for most of the build and have yet to see an example in response. Build me a combat viable Logi fit that follows these rules Build best fit with it's racial Assault counterpart to establish a baseline Build the Logi fit to meet or exceed all stats of the Assault suit, without omitting or cheery picking from the stat block Build the above fits without use of the AR Build the above fits without use of the Cal Logi suit OR without including any skill buffs in listed stats. After normalizing stats (i.e. fitting to at least match as per #2) make best efforts to fill open slots. Tally SP required to unlock/fit all mods used for the fitting Tally ISK cost of the fitting including all mods and suits List the results Thus far all results I've seen have come down to the following. Assault suits get more value out of passive skills due to higher on board stats Assault suits fits cost less ISK/SP on average for comparable fits Logi suits have 2-3 extra Equipment slots Logi suits can hyper specialize into a single area at the expense of falling short in all/nearly all other areas Risk vs Reward - If a fit costs more ISK, more SP and still retains other limits then it's not broken Racial Skills - The racial buff on the Cal Logi needs toned down, and the racial skills for the Assault suits need some love to give them better 'gank' value. The Logi line =/= the Cal Logi. The Cal Logi suit =/= the Cal Logi suit + it's racial skill The OP'ness of the Cal Logi suit + racial skill =/= the OP'ness of the pre nerf TAR which did not cost more ISK or SP than other weapons of the same Meta nor did it require specialization within fittings to excel or have a list of inferior stats within its block. Being able to do too many things too well at once/at the same cost is most certainly a balance issue and that's what the TAR did. That is a threshold that even the Cal Logi suit (with it's currently OP racial buff) cannot attain in equal measure, even less so is it something the entire dropsuit line is capable of. 0.02 ISK Cross I agree. Like I said, the issue with the weapon was that it did too many things. Similarly, the Caldari Logi bonus allows it to do too many things, but specifically be a better Assault suit than any of the ones that were designed to fill that role. Cool, glad we're on the same page. Fix the Caldari Logi racial skills, give the racial skills of the Assault line some love an the problem is solved no need to tinker with the base suit stats (internal issues of the Amarr Med frames notwithstanding). It's good to have that cleared up. Cheers, Cross
Cinaed Corvus Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 11	Posted - 2013.06.16 09:01:00 - [18] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: The Caldari Logi specifically needs to be looked at. Most people right now are running them as beefed up Assault suits because they have the most customizability of any suit in the game. 5 high and 4 low slots on top of the most CPU/PG as well as the best racial bonus make them able to do anything they want. I don't understand how CCP let something like that slip through the pipelines. You can literally do anything you want with that suit, even going as far as matching a heavy's EHP while still being faster and able to carry equipment. Looking at that suit makes it seem to me that CCP doesn't even bother to do any internal testing before releasing. Every top corp in PC that I've faced steamrolls the battlefield with their Caldari Logis of Death. Some of them don't even bother to carry equipment, instead choosing to stack Complex Extenders, Damage mods, and Shield Regulators at no negative cost to them. All of the suits need another balance pass and CCP needs to release the stats before they release another monstrously imbalanced suit. It doesn't matter one bit what CCP intends the suit to do, it's what people will do with the suit that matters. As soon as people saw how incredible those stats were and that they weren't changing them, all the min/maxers flocked to it and started running God-mode Assaults with them. Then on the other hand you have the Caldari Assault which has the most useless bonus (10% reload on hybrid at level 5). So putting ~2.5 million skill points into Caldari Assault gets you a worse suit stat-wise (4H/3L vs 5H/4L and way less CPU/PG) and a bonus which shaves off fractions of a second on reload (.3 seconds on ARs for example). Im so baffled by how they choose these bonuses. Edit: And don't even try to mention a lack of sidearm as what makes it fair. I run Assault suits and hardly ever fit a sidearm on my suits. It's not necessary when you have hives, which the Logis can easily fit and still have room to mess around with whatever they want. For example they can put a CPU upgrade on the low and still have 5H/3L and run prototype EVEYTHING (equipment, modules, weapon, grenade, etc) without a hitch while still having >500 shield and however much armor they decide to stack on it. No other suit is nearly this powerful. Stop crying. There is only one logi suit that is remotely balanced, and that is the Amarr Logi. with a 3H/3L/3E at 18 less PG while gaining the sidearms and 40 CPU over it's assault variant, slower speed, lower end shield recharge rate (17 per sec), but with a fairly OK active recharge delay and a good depletion delay timer allows it to play the role it is meant to which is to support the heavies, sentinels, and the upcoming commandos. The Caldari and Gallente logis on the other hand have more slots, more PG, more equipment and their lack of sidearms doesn't seem to deter people from using it. The Minnie is much the same as the Caldari and Gallente. More slots, higher PG, more equipment, and a fair recharge rate with the speed bonus it receives
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1950	Posted - 2013.06.16 15:11:00 - [19] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: More what I'm saying is that the Logi suit is about as OP as the Tac AR was. The Tac AR, contrary to what some people here have said, was NEVER overpowered. It did exactly what it was supposed to, but it was also good at a few too many other things as well. Logistics suits aren't overpowered, but rather good at many different roles. Basically, our current Logistics suits are "Jack-of-all-Trades" suits. You can fit them in a variety of ways and have them fill that role you made for them perfectly. While the other suits push more specialization, these suits are the Tech-III ships of Dust, allowing you to basically make them do whatever you wish. They don't make you magically better than everyone else, but they let you be far more flexible in the number of uses you can get from a single suit. Numbers and screenshots or it didn't happen Seriously tho the old TAR was completely broken and any assessment to the contrary is simply an outright lack of testing/dismissal of evidence. Prior to the nerf the TAR was able to kill LAVs at range, was able to do more damage than a Laser at optimal, was able to kill shotgunners in CQC after the shotty fired off it's first blast... and the list goes on that way. The simple and obvious saturation of the weapon speaks volumes on it's own, when a single weapon is more common on the field than many weapon types it's a good bet that weapon is pushing beyond proper balance. The Cal Logi suit is not overpowered but the Cal Logi racial skill pretty clearly is. I've been laying this option out in many threads for most of the build and have yet to see an example in response. Build me a combat viable Logi fit that follows these rules Build best fit with it's racial Assault counterpart to establish a baseline Build the Logi fit to meet or exceed all stats of the Assault suit, without omitting or cheery picking from the stat block Build the above fits without use of the AR Build the above fits without use of the Cal Logi suit OR without including any skill buffs in listed stats. After normalizing stats (i.e. fitting to at least match as per #2) make best efforts to fill open slots. Tally SP required to unlock/fit all mods used for the fitting Tally ISK cost of the fitting including all mods and suits List the results Thus far all results I've seen have come down to the following. Assault suits get more value out of passive skills due to higher on board stats Assault suits fits cost less ISK/SP on average for comparable fits Logi suits have 2-3 extra Equipment slots Logi suits can hyper specialize into a single area at the expense of falling short in all/nearly all other areas Risk vs Reward - If a fit costs more ISK, more SP and still retains other limits then it's not broken Racial Skills - The racial buff on the Cal Logi needs toned down, and the racial skills for the Assault suits need some love to give them better 'gank' value. The Logi line =/= the Cal Logi. The Cal Logi suit =/= the Cal Logi suit + it's racial skill The OP'ness of the Cal Logi suit + racial skill =/= the OP'ness of the pre nerf TAR which did not cost more ISK or SP than other weapons of the same Meta nor did it require specialization within fittings to excel or have a list of inferior stats within its block. Being able to do too many things too well at once/at the same cost is most certainly a balance issue and that's what the TAR did. That is a threshold that even the Cal Logi suit (with it's currently OP racial buff) cannot attain in equal measure, even less so is it something the entire dropsuit line is capable of. 0.02 ISK Cross I agree. Like I said, the issue with the weapon was that it did too many things. Similarly, the Caldari Logi bonus allows it to do too many things, but specifically be a better Assault suit than any of the ones that were designed to fill that role. Cool, glad we're on the same page. Fix the Caldari Logi racial skills, give the racial skills of the Assault line some love an the problem is solved no need to tinker with the base suit stats (internal issues of the Amarr Med frames notwithstanding). It's good to have that cleared up. Cheers, Cross Sounds good to me. +1
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 368	Posted - 2013.06.16 16:55:00 - [20] - Quote Caldari logistics < Flux grenade

Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1165	Posted - 2013.06.16 17:17:00 - [21] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Caldari logistics < Flux grenade I wish CCP would give us an ETA on the projectile and targeting bug fixes currently afflicting the MD and Grenades. It is very difficult to do a proper set of tests on balance when relevant aspects are not able to work as intended due to multiple bugs. CCP has stated they don't want to alter base stats until they've fixed the bugs (specific response in the MD 911 thread) which while frustrating is understandable. They should by the same token not touch the Cal Suit stats until after the bug fixes are in and Flux Grenades are working as intended, considering the nature of the Cal Logi buff. I don't run the Cal Logi but based on fights against it and reading the stats internal to the Logi Line it seems OP compared to the other Logi suits and durable on the battlefield. To be fair however I don't actually struggle that much with killing the Cal Logi suit (I do run Flux on and off even tho they're buggy right now). With bugs fixed I expect the MD to need a bit of a buff, the contact nades to need a nerf, armor tanking to need some love and the Cal Logi suit buff to require a mild reduction. But as stated previously it's hard to get solid testing done on these interlaced issues due to the present bugs. 0.02 ISK Cross
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 370	Posted - 2013.06.16 19:24:00 - [22] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: Caldari logistics < Flux grenade I wish CCP would give us an ETA on the projectile and targeting bug fixes currently afflicting the MD and Grenades. It is very difficult to do a proper set of tests on balance when relevant aspects are not able to work as intended due to multiple bugs. CCP has stated they don't want to alter base stats until they've fixed the bugs (specific response in the MD 911 thread) which while frustrating is understandable. They should by the same token not touch the Cal Suit stats until after the bug fixes are in and Flux Grenades are working as intended, considering the nature of the Cal Logi buff. I don't run the Cal Logi but based on fights against it and reading the stats internal to the Logi Line it seems OP compared to the other Logi suits and durable on the battlefield. To be fair however I don't actually struggle that much with killing the Cal Logi suit (I do run Flux on and off even tho they're buggy right now). With bugs fixed I expect the MD to need a bit of a buff, the contact nades to need a nerf, armor tanking to need some love and the Cal Logi suit buff to require a mild reduction. But as stated previously it's hard to get solid testing done on these interlaced issues due to the present bugs. 0.02 ISK Cross Great post, as a MD/Flux user I can verify that the Flux has serious issues with hit detection. It would be a mistake to nerf/buff anything not blatantly OP until issues are fixed. But I don't agree about a MD buff. If they fix hit detection there will be people screaming OP in a hurry.
Eskel Bondfree DUST University Ivy League 107	Posted - 2013.06.16 21:37:00 - [23] - Quote The value of having a side arm should be increased, it would make running assault fits on a logi suit less attractive. More variety in the side arm category would be a start. I would also like to see every weapon having a distinct weakness that needs to be compensated for with the right side arm in order to have optimal combat effectiveness.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1955	Posted - 2013.06.17 03:51:00 - [24] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: Caldari logistics < Flux grenade I wish CCP would give us an ETA on the projectile and targeting bug fixes currently afflicting the MD and Grenades. It is very difficult to do a proper set of tests on balance when relevant aspects are not able to work as intended due to multiple bugs. CCP has stated they don't want to alter base stats until they've fixed the bugs (specific response in the MD 911 thread) which while frustrating is understandable. They should by the same token not touch the Cal Suit stats until after the bug fixes are in and Flux Grenades are working as intended, considering the nature of the Cal Logi buff. I don't run the Cal Logi but based on fights against it and reading the stats internal to the Logi Line it seems OP compared to the other Logi suits and durable on the battlefield. To be fair however I don't actually struggle that much with killing the Cal Logi suit (I do run Flux on and off even tho they're buggy right now). With bugs fixed I expect the MD to need a bit of a buff, the contact nades to need a nerf, armor tanking to need some love and the Cal Logi suit buff to require a mild reduction. But as stated previously it's hard to get solid testing done on these interlaced issues due to the present bugs. 0.02 ISK Cross As far as we've seen in the last trailer, it looks like the fixes Wolfman was talking about for MD splash are in effect. As far as we know, there wasn't anything shown that wasn't slated for Uprising 1.2.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 120	Posted - 2013.06.17 14:29:00 - [25] - Quote I believe the flux grenades are working as designed. Damage dealt by flux grenades works like this: Any player equipment in the AOE of a flux is destroyed, any player not behind cover from the origin of the flux blast loses their shields, any player behind cover when flux blast occurs is protected from it's effects. As for the logistics suit, a good fitting costs more than the assault or heavy suits and gets killed quicker if focus fired upon, that is the balancing factor. The assaults have higher base stats on all racial variants and so, if used in an assault role, the logi suit does not reign supreme, but rather is ok for the support role because they support the assaults and heavies. The only reason for the higher PG and CPU is to be able to fit the equipment. The Logi suits have less tank slots on all racial variants than their assault suits so in all reality I find the balance the logi cry laughable, even when limited to the Caldari logi, which I have just recently respeced out of. It wasn't the premier suit and it certainly didn't provide me with a gigantic amount of hp, but it did give me a healty fear of flux nades and a respect for those of you who think that a 90Hp armor buffer for your flux naded suit will keep you alive long enough for your shield to regenerate so that I need more that 2 rounds from my ninja nerfed TAC Duvolle to kill you. We all make choices in this game, learning to live with them is the game. Meta everything and you will not have problems but go to the market to check first what the stats are and what the skill bonuses do for the equipment and suit being compared. Often skilling into something will provide an unforseen boost to a players stats when they achieve the skill level required to use a piece of equipment. In the case of the Caldari Logi suit, 5% bonus to shields per level is perfectly acceptable, they still drop to 0% shields when hit with a flux nade.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1968	Posted - 2013.06.17 15:43:00 - [26] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: I believe the flux grenades are working as designed. Damage dealt by flux grenades works like this: Any player equipment in the AOE of a flux is destroyed, any player not behind cover from the origin of the flux blast loses their shields, any player behind cover when flux blast occurs is protected from it's effects. As for the logistics suit, a good fitting costs more than the assault or heavy suits and gets killed quicker if focus fired upon, that is the balancing factor. The assaults have higher base stats on all racial variants and so, if used in an assault role, the logi suit does not reign supreme, but rather is ok for the support role because they support the assaults and heavies. The only reason for the higher PG and CPU is to be able to fit the equipment. The Logi suits have less tank slots on all racial variants than their assault suits so in all reality I find the balance the logi cry laughable, even when limited to the Caldari logi, which I have just recently respeced out of. It wasn't the premier suit and it certainly didn't provide me with a gigantic amount of hp, but it did give me a healty fear of flux nades and a respect for those of you who think that a 90Hp armor buffer for your flux naded suit will keep you alive long enough for your shield to regenerate so that I need more that 2 rounds from my ninja nerfed TAC Duvolle to kill you. We all make choices in this game, learning to live with them is the game. Meta everything and you will not have problems but go to the market to check first what the stats are and what the skill bonuses do for the equipment and suit being compared. Often skilling into something will provide an unforseen boost to a players stats when they achieve the skill level required to use a piece of equipment. In the case of the Caldari Logi suit, 5% bonus to shields per level is perfectly acceptable, they still drop to 0% shields when hit with a flux nade. You shouldn't really be able to protect yourself from an EMP behind any random object.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 122	Posted - 2013.06.17 16:18:00 - [27] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Draco Cerberus wrote: I believe the flux grenades are working as designed. Damage dealt by flux grenades works like this: Any player equipment in the AOE of a flux is destroyed, any player not behind cover from the origin of the flux blast loses their shields, any player behind cover when flux blast occurs is protected from it's effects. As for the logistics suit, a good fitting costs more than the assault or heavy suits and gets killed quicker if focus fired upon, that is the balancing factor. The assaults have higher base stats on all racial variants and so, if used in an assault role, the logi suit does not reign supreme, but rather is ok for the support role because they support the assaults and heavies. The only reason for the higher PG and CPU is to be able to fit the equipment. The Logi suits have less tank slots on all racial variants than their assault suits so in all reality I find the balance the logi cry laughable, even when limited to the Caldari logi, which I have just recently respeced out of. It wasn't the premier suit and it certainly didn't provide me with a gigantic amount of hp, but it did give me a healty fear of flux nades and a respect for those of you who think that a 90Hp armor buffer for your flux naded suit will keep you alive long enough for your shield to regenerate so that I need more that 2 rounds from my ninja nerfed TAC Duvolle to kill you. We all make choices in this game, learning to live with them is the game. Meta everything and you will not have problems but go to the market to check first what the stats are and what the skill bonuses do for the equipment and suit being compared. Often skilling into something will provide an unforseen boost to a players stats when they achieve the skill level required to use a piece of equipment. In the case of the Caldari Logi suit, 5% bonus to shields per level is perfectly acceptable, they still drop to 0% shields when hit with a flux nade. You shouldn't really be able to protect yourself from an EMP behind any random object. Why not? IRL a wall will reduce the amount of signal that a cell phone transmits to a Cell-tower. Also if you go for an X-ray at the hospital or dentist they will drape a lead apron over you to protect you from radiation associated with the X-ray. Many forms of radiation are blocked by non-conductive objects IRL so why would you even argue the point?
Eskel Bondfree DUST University Ivy League 107	Posted - 2013.06.17 17:24:00 - [28] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: The Logi suits have less tank slots on all racial variants than their assault suits so in all reality I find the balance the logi cry laughable Actually, all logi suits have more module slots than their racial assault suit, except for the Amarr. Gallente and Minmatar have one extra slot, Caldari has two. Draco Cerberus wrote: the Caldari logi, which I have just recently respeced out of. It wasn't the premier suit and it certainly didn't provide me with a gigantic amount of hp, but it did give me a healty fear of flux nades and a respect for those of you who think that a 90Hp armor buffer for your flux naded suit will keep you alive long enough for your shield to regenerate so that I need more that 2 rounds from my ninja nerfed TAC Duvolle to kill you. How is that different from the Caldari assault or basic suit? All shield tanked suits are vulnerable to flux nades, it has nothing to do with the fact that Caldari logi suits seem imbalanced compared to Caldari assault or basic suits.
Tallen Ellecon KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 121	Posted - 2013.06.17 18:32:00 - [29] - Quote I love my Gallente proto logi. It lets me do logi stuff well. Higher base stats, especially speed (especially with the armor tank) would be nice, but I think they are sufficient. I can throw shield extenders on those 3 high slots, and the 5 low slots allow a decent armor tank/rep. The drawback is that the 4 equipment slots take up a lot of CPU/PG that even with the racial bonus keeps me from wielding a weapon beyond standard. I think I'm using the suit as intended and it works well. If there were more restrictions on the logi suit and more bonuses towards its support role I wouldn't have a problem with it, but the Gallente suit is fine. The Caldari suit needs retweeking, but I fear if they do too much all the assaults who jumped into logi for the bonus will demand respecs. I personally have no sympathy for someone using a logi suit as a killing machine, so if change does come I'll be fine. Just don't mess with my Gallente Logi.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 125	Posted - 2013.06.17 18:36:00 - [30] - Quote Eskel Bondfree wrote: Draco Cerberus wrote: The Logi suits have less tank slots on all racial variants than their assault suits so in all reality I find the balance the logi cry laughable Actually, all logi suits have more module slots than their racial assault suit, except for the Amarr. Gallente and Minmatar have one extra slot, Caldari has two. Draco Cerberus wrote: the Caldari logi, which I have just recently respeced out of. It wasn't the premier suit and it certainly didn't provide me with a gigantic amount of hp, but it did give me a healty fear of flux nades and a respect for those of you who think that a 90Hp armor buffer for your flux naded suit will keep you alive long enough for your shield to regenerate so that I need more that 2 rounds from my ninja nerfed TAC Duvolle to kill you. How is that different from the Caldari assault or basic suit? All shield tanked suits are vulnerable to flux nades, it has nothing to do with the fact that Caldari logi suits seem imbalanced compared to Caldari assault or basic suits. You are right, I forgot that the Caldari Assault CK.0 has 4 high, 3 Low, 1 Sidearm, 1 Light weapon, 1 grenade and one equipment slot. It is also faster and starts out with 210HP shield from base HP (no skills trained) and 120 HP armor (no skills trained). The Caldari Logistics CK.0 on the other hand has at the base level (no skills trained at all) 180 shield, 90 armor and a 5 hp lower shield recharge rate (20 hp/s) than the Assault CK.0 (25 hp/s). I still don't see any imbalance. With proper fitting I have seen the Assault CK.0 decimate troops on the field far quicker than the Logistics CK.0 just with their speed alone. Both are Meta level 7 suits. Do not start to compare a meta 1 or 3 suit with a meta level 7 because there is no comparison. You are also right about all shield tanked suits being vulnerable to Flux grenades, but you forget that we are talking specifically about a Logistics CK.0 suit so this is the counter for it and other shield tanked suits. The movement speed of the logistics suit is the most notable disadvantage to it as an assault player. Logistics CK.0 has a move of 4,7 and a sprint of 6.6, sprint duration of 11.5 s and a stamina of 115 with stamina recharge rate at 12.0/s. The Assault CK.0 has a move of 5m/s, sprint of 7m/s, sprint duration of 15.0s, stamina 150 and stamina recharge rate is 15.0/s. While a Logistics CK.0 has more tank slots (5 highs) it is vulnerable to fire longer (movement speeds and recharge rates. This means that when the shields are gone it is more vulnerable and also is not as quick to find cover. On a side note, maybe there would be less logis playing the assault role if some of you assaults would just step up and play assault instead of hiding. Some days I wonder why it seems like my squad is the only one pushing up on an objective. I look at the map and see a big blue group sitting on top of a building somewhere trying to protect an objective rather than take the next one. All the while my yellow healing butt is the one running around the packs of enemies that you assaults seem to have a hard time finding and shooting.

Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 125	Posted - 2013.06.17 18:39:00 - [31] - Quote Tallen Ellecon wrote: I love my Gallente proto logi. It lets me do logi stuff well. Higher base stats, especially speed (especially with the armor tank) would be nice, but I think they are sufficient. I can throw shield extenders on those 3 high slots, and the 5 low slots allow a decent armor tank/rep. The drawback is that the 4 equipment slots take up a lot of CPU/PG that even with the racial bonus keeps me from wielding a weapon beyond standard. I think I'm using the suit as intended and it works well. If there were more restrictions on the logi suit and more bonuses towards its support role I wouldn't have a problem with it, but the Gallente suit is fine. The Caldari suit needs retweeking, but I fear if they do too much all the assaults who jumped into logi for the bonus will demand respecs. I personally have no sympathy for someone using a logi suit as a killing machine, so if change does come I'll be fine. Just don't mess with my Gallente Logi. The Electronics and Engineering skills in proper doses along with a few more ranks into you gun will fix that. I had the same problem for a while then did some checking through the skills.
hackerzilla Defenders of the Helghast Dream 5	Posted - 2013.06.17 19:07:00 - [32] - Quote LEAVE THE CALDARI LOGI ALONE NOW!!!
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1969	Posted - 2013.06.17 19:08:00 - [33] - Quote hackerzilla wrote: LEAVE THE CALDARI LOGI ALONE NOW!!! Your name is hackerzilla. Your post is invalid.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 126	Posted - 2013.06.17 19:19:00 - [34] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: hackerzilla wrote: LEAVE THE CALDARI LOGI ALONE NOW!!! Your name is hackerzilla. Your post is invalid. His post got a like and this one won't from me
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1970	Posted - 2013.06.17 19:21:00 - [35] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: hackerzilla wrote: LEAVE THE CALDARI LOGI ALONE NOW!!! Your name is hackerzilla. Your post is invalid. His post got a like and this one won't from me I liked his post too, but that doesn't mean his name isn't silly.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 126	Posted - 2013.06.17 19:21:00 - [36] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Take up Cross's challenge and prove us wrong. This again and again and again
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 126	Posted - 2013.06.17 19:24:00 - [37] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: More what I'm saying is that the Logi suit is about as OP as the Tac AR was. The Tac AR, contrary to what some people here have said, was NEVER overpowered. It did exactly what it was supposed to, but it was also good at a few too many other things as well. Logistics suits aren't overpowered, but rather good at many different roles. Basically, our current Logistics suits are "Jack-of-all-Trades" suits. You can fit them in a variety of ways and have them fill that role you made for them perfectly. While the other suits push more specialization, these suits are the Tech-III ships of Dust, allowing you to basically make them do whatever you wish. They don't make you magically better than everyone else, but they let you be far more flexible in the number of uses you can get from a single suit. Numbers and screenshots or it didn't happen Seriously tho the old TAR was completely broken and any assessment to the contrary is simply an outright lack of testing/dismissal of evidence. Prior to the nerf the TAR was able to kill LAVs at range, was able to do more damage than a Laser at optimal, was able to kill shotgunners in CQC after the shotty fired off it's first blast... and the list goes on that way. The simple and obvious saturation of the weapon speaks volumes on it's own, when a single weapon is more common on the field than many weapon types it's a good bet that weapon is pushing beyond proper balance. The Cal Logi suit is not overpowered but the Cal Logi racial skill pretty clearly is. I've been laying this option out in many threads for most of the build and have yet to see an example in response. Build me a combat viable Logi fit that follows these rules Build best fit with it's racial Assault counterpart to establish a baseline Build the Logi fit to meet or exceed all stats of the Assault suit, without omitting or cheery picking from the stat block Build the above fits without use of the AR Build the above fits without use of the Cal Logi suit OR without including any skill buffs in listed stats. After normalizing stats (i.e. fitting to at least match as per #2) make best efforts to fill open slots. Tally SP required to unlock/fit all mods used for the fitting Tally ISK cost of the fitting including all mods and suits List the results Thus far all results I've seen have come down to the following. Assault suits get more value out of passive skills due to higher on board stats Assault suits fits cost less ISK/SP on average for comparable fits Logi suits have 2-3 extra Equipment slots Logi suits can hyper specialize into a single area at the expense of falling short in all/nearly all other areas Risk vs Reward - If a fit costs more ISK, more SP and still retains other limits then it's not broken Racial Skills - The racial buff on the Cal Logi needs toned down, and the racial skills for the Assault suits need some love to give them better 'gank' value. The Logi line =/= the Cal Logi. The Cal Logi suit =/= the Cal Logi suit + it's racial skill The OP'ness of the Cal Logi suit + racial skill =/= the OP'ness of the pre nerf TAR which did not cost more ISK or SP than other weapons of the same Meta nor did it require specialization within fittings to excel or have a list of inferior stats within its block. Being able to do too many things too well at once/at the same cost is most certainly a balance issue and that's what the TAR did. That is a threshold that even the Cal Logi suit (with it's currently OP racial buff) cannot attain in equal measure, even less so is it something the entire dropsuit line is capable of. 0.02 ISK Cross Here's the challenge if you missed it the first 2 times...
hackerzilla Defenders of the Helghast Dream 8	Posted - 2013.06.17 19:30:00 - [38] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Draco Cerberus wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: hackerzilla wrote: LEAVE THE CALDARI LOGI ALONE NOW!!! Your name is hackerzilla. Your post is invalid. His post got a like and this one won't from me I liked his post too, but that doesn't mean his name isn't silly. I TAKE PRIDE IN ME SILLY NAME LOLLOLKLOLOLK
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1971	Posted - 2013.06.17 19:33:00 - [39] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: More what I'm saying is that the Logi suit is about as OP as the Tac AR was. The Tac AR, contrary to what some people here have said, was NEVER overpowered. It did exactly what it was supposed to, but it was also good at a few too many other things as well. Logistics suits aren't overpowered, but rather good at many different roles. Basically, our current Logistics suits are "Jack-of-all-Trades" suits. You can fit them in a variety of ways and have them fill that role you made for them perfectly. While the other suits push more specialization, these suits are the Tech-III ships of Dust, allowing you to basically make them do whatever you wish. They don't make you magically better than everyone else, but they let you be far more flexible in the number of uses you can get from a single suit. Numbers and screenshots or it didn't happen Seriously tho the old TAR was completely broken and any assessment to the contrary is simply an outright lack of testing/dismissal of evidence. Prior to the nerf the TAR was able to kill LAVs at range, was able to do more damage than a Laser at optimal, was able to kill shotgunners in CQC after the shotty fired off it's first blast... and the list goes on that way. The simple and obvious saturation of the weapon speaks volumes on it's own, when a single weapon is more common on the field than many weapon types it's a good bet that weapon is pushing beyond proper balance. The Cal Logi suit is not overpowered but the Cal Logi racial skill pretty clearly is. I've been laying this option out in many threads for most of the build and have yet to see an example in response. Build me a combat viable Logi fit that follows these rules Build best fit with it's racial Assault counterpart to establish a baseline Build the Logi fit to meet or exceed all stats of the Assault suit, without omitting or cheery picking from the stat block Build the above fits without use of the AR Build the above fits without use of the Cal Logi suit OR without including any skill buffs in listed stats. After normalizing stats (i.e. fitting to at least match as per #2) make best efforts to fill open slots. Tally SP required to unlock/fit all mods used for the fitting Tally ISK cost of the fitting including all mods and suits List the results Thus far all results I've seen have come down to the following. Assault suits get more value out of passive skills due to higher on board stats Assault suits fits cost less ISK/SP on average for comparable fits Logi suits have 2-3 extra Equipment slots Logi suits can hyper specialize into a single area at the expense of falling short in all/nearly all other areas Risk vs Reward - If a fit costs more ISK, more SP and still retains other limits then it's not broken Racial Skills - The racial buff on the Cal Logi needs toned down, and the racial skills for the Assault suits need some love to give them better 'gank' value. The Logi line =/= the Cal Logi. The Cal Logi suit =/= the Cal Logi suit + it's racial skill The OP'ness of the Cal Logi suit + racial skill =/= the OP'ness of the pre nerf TAR which did not cost more ISK or SP than other weapons of the same Meta nor did it require specialization within fittings to excel or have a list of inferior stats within its block. Being able to do too many things too well at once/at the same cost is most certainly a balance issue and that's what the TAR did. That is a threshold that even the Cal Logi suit (with it's currently OP racial buff) cannot attain in equal measure, even less so is it something the entire dropsuit line is capable of. 0.02 ISK Cross Here's the challenge if you missed it the first 2 times... I'm not saying it wasn't a balance issue. I'm saying that OP gets tossed around on here so much that we don't even talk about the underlying issues.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1823	Posted - 2013.06.17 19:40:00 - [40] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: As far as we've seen in the last trailer, it looks like the fixes Wolfman was talking about for MD splash are in effect. As far as we know, there wasn't anything shown that wasn't slated for Uprising 1.2. Seeing the new MD in that trailer is the only think that's keeping me around.

Eskel Bondfree DUST University Ivy League 107	Posted - 2013.06.17 19:42:00 - [41] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: [quote=Eskel Bondfree][quote=Draco Cerberus] You are right, I forgot that the Caldari Assault CK.0 has 4 high, 3 Low, 1 Sidearm, 1 Light weapon, 1 grenade and one equipment slot. It is also faster and starts out with 210HP shield from base HP (no skills trained) and 120 HP armor (no skills trained). The Caldari Logistics CK.0 on the other hand has at the base level (no skills trained at all) 180 shield, 90 armor and a 5 hp lower shield recharge rate (20 hp/s) than the Assault CK.0 (25 hp/s). I still don't see any imbalance. With proper fitting I have seen the Assault CK.0 decimate troops on the field far quicker than the Logistics CK.0 just with their speed alone. Both are Meta level 7 suits. Do not start to compare a meta 1 or 3 suit with a meta level 7 because there is no comparison. You are also right about all shield tanked suits being vulnerable to Flux grenades, but you forget that we are talking specifically about a Logistics CK.0 suit so this is the counter for it and other shield tanked suits. The movement speed of the logistics suit is the most notable disadvantage to it as an assault player. Logistics CK.0 has a move of 4,7 and a sprint of 6.6, sprint duration of 11.5 s and a stamina of 115 with stamina recharge rate at 12.0/s. The Assault CK.0 has a move of 5m/s, sprint of 7m/s, sprint duration of 15.0s, stamina 150 and stamina recharge rate is 15.0/s. While a Logistics CK.0 has more tank slots (5 highs) it is vulnerable to fire longer (movement speeds and recharge rates. This means that when the shields are gone it is more vulnerable and also is not as quick to find cover. On a side note, maybe there would be less logis playing the assault role if some of you assaults would just step up and play assault instead of hiding. Some days I wonder why it seems like my squad is the only one pushing up on an objective. I look at the map and see a big blue group sitting on top of a building somewhere trying to protect an objective rather than take the next one. All the while my yellow healing butt is the one running around the packs of enemies that you assaults seem to have a hard time finding and shooting. Take up Cross's challenge and prove us wrong. I pointed out why your previous arguments don't hold, no need to go on a rant and throw me in some imaginary 'you assault players that sit on roof tops and hide' group of people. I'm a logi player myself, and when I'm not playing as a logi, I run an Amarr basic frame that is just as slow as a logi, and I do fine in it. Btw I was not talking about basic level drop suits, I was talking about the medium frame basic class of drop suits. I know the stats of logi and assault suits, and I've done my part in the discussion here, feel free to add to it if you have anything to say that hasn't been said already there. And maybe you don't realize it but even Cross Atu agreed that the Caldari logi is more powerful than it should be. Reduced mobiliy and lack of a side arm for logis is fine, but it's not enough to truly differentiate them from assault and basic suits. And it's because having that side arm as an assault doesn't matter 90% of the time, the side arm slot is simply not valuable enough. This has to change, see post #23. Quote: shield tanked suits being vulnerable to Flux grenades, but you forget that we are talking specifically about a Logistics CK.0 suit so this is the counter for it and other shield tanked suits. Yes, and that's exactly why it doesn't matter when comparing the caldari logi to the caldari assault. They need to be balanced in regard to each other, and imho they are not.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 126	Posted - 2013.06.17 22:01:00 - [42] - Quote I don't think it was a rant but prove me wrong. I spend alot of time in matches where it seems like blue dot's are either afking or tired of pushing and give up. If you give the amarr Logi suit the added weapon why not give the caldari Logi the shield buffs. None of the bonuses are the same throughout the classes from one specialized suit to the next. This is where choices come into play, the choice to have low pg and cpu and high shields as a caldari logi is balanced when compared to the galente Logi who have high armor, pg and cpu bonuses. The reason they are the way they are is fairly evident if you play Eve. Caldari have shields, Galente have armor and Minmitar can tank either way while Amarr generally tank armor. The suits line up with their respective races and don't seem unfair in any way to me. The thread is about the need for a nerf which at this point in time I have yet to see any evidence that the Caldari Logi CK.0 is unbalanced. Not because I haven't looked for it but because I have used it and seen the possibilities but also the negative in the suit and in my opinion it is not overpowered, far from it and although I don't think it needs a buff I feel it is not what many people make it out to be. If the Caldari Assault CK.0 were buffed slightly I don't believe it would hurt much either but I believe that if one were to use both suits with maxed out shield skills and a complex buffer tank you would probably find they were very close to an even match with the Assault suit able to gun down the logi suit 9 out of 10 times solely because of the need to reload and the lower armor the Logi suit has. This is also not a rant. As for my previous dissertion about blue dots not pushing up on objectives, well if you had been in the pub matches I was in last night you would probably agree with me.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1176	Posted - 2013.06.18 05:32:00 - [43] - Quote Eskel Bondfree wrote: maybe you don't realize it but even Cross Atu agreed that the Caldari logi is more powerful than it should be. Just a point of clarity, I do indeed believe that at present the Caldari Logi suit + racial skill buffs out performs the other suit + skill combos from the three remaining logi types. I do not however think that the Cal Logi suit is broken, rather it is my assessment that the skill buff it gains is stronger (when considered in context) than the rest of the logi types. That being said I remain completely unconvinced that, questions of underwhelming racial buffs aside, logi suits are superior to assault suits. Based on all the fittings I've seen posted, created myself, or been shown by players in game, I have seen no concrete data supporting the contention that somehow suit balance is currently "logi > assault". Summation; The Assault racial buffs need some love, most of them lack the type of specificity or synergy which would really make them 'sing'. Cal Logi racial buff likely needs a light nerf to bring it in line with other logi suit skill buffs. No logi suit needs any alteration (with the exception of the Amaar which needs more PG and possible an additional low slot). Just trying to be specific Cheers, Cross
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 393	Posted - 2013.06.18 14:03:00 - [44] - Quote The splash damage of a flux takes me down to 118 armor or so with maxed out armor skills. This is a case of pub matches dictating balance. In a PC battle you should have squads that complement each other (flux, locus, and AV). In pub matches 90% of people are using locus grenades. Even when people go into pub matches in squads it's unlikely they are coordinating fits. It doesn't seem to me that a suit should get nerfed because of poor preparation. A dude standing on a proto nanohive can neutralize an entire squad of caldari logis if he spams fluxes.
Eskel Bondfree DUST University Ivy League 107	Posted - 2013.06.18 17:34:00 - [45] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: I don't think it was a rant but prove me wrong. I spend alot of time in matches where it seems like blue dot's are either afking or tired of pushing and give up. If you give the amarr Logi suit the added weapon why not give the caldari Logi the shield buffs. None of the bonuses are the same throughout the classes from one specialized suit to the next. This is where choices come into play, the choice to have low pg and cpu and high shields as a caldari logi is balanced when compared to the galente Logi who have high armor, pg and cpu bonuses. The reason they are the way they are is fairly evident if you play Eve. Caldari have shields, Galente have armor and Minmitar can tank either way while Amarr generally tank armor. The suits line up with their respective races and don't seem unfair in any way to me. The thread is about the need for a nerf which at this point in time I have yet to see any evidence that the Caldari Logi CK.0 is unbalanced. Not because I haven't looked for it but because I have used it and seen the possibilities but also the negative in the suit and in my opinion it is not overpowered, far from it and although I don't think it needs a buff I feel it is not what many people make it out to be. If the Caldari Assault CK.0 were buffed slightly I don't believe it would hurt much either but I believe that if one were to use both suits with maxed out shield skills and a complex buffer tank you would probably find they were very close to an even match with the Assault suit able to gun down the logi suit 9 out of 10 times solely because of the need to reload and the lower armor the Logi suit has. This is also not a rant. As for my previous dissertion about blue dots not pushing up on objectives, well if you had been in the pub matches I was in last night you would probably agree with me. Thank you for providing the link discussing the attributes yet you forget one thing, 120 armor base vs 90 armor base, the amount of Hp left when a flux grenade is added to the mix. That is the suit's weakness and yes it does balance the suit. 3 rounds from a militia assault rifle will kill that suit when fluxed. You can load on all the shield extenders you want and one flux nade will still remove all of them sir. Sorry for calling your answer a rant, I perceived it as kind of hostile, I guess I just got you the wrong way. But anyway, I stand by my point, giving up mobility and a sidearm does not matter enough to make basic and assault suits really relevant outside of ambush matches. And I'd rather see assault and basic suits or weapon balance touched than the logi suits nerfed in general. Especially basic suits need to be looked at because they are completely redundant at the moment. As for assaults gunning down logis 9 out of 10 times, I can't agree. The logi has an extra 125 HP in shields, and it can make up for the missing 38 armor HP (after skills) easily by fitting a basic armor plate in its extra low slot, using the extra CPU/PG the suit has (with the new armor plates probably even without loosing speed). But there's no way to decide this so it's a mood point. Quote: Until such a time as non-AR LW options are once again robust and equal the actual value of the sidearm slot will be overshadowed by the dominant "one size fits all" adaptability of the AR. I sure hope you're right, but I'm not convinced we'll have that anytime soon. My biggest hope is that the removal of a hard limit for weapon ranges will change the situation for the better. And let's see how the other racial pistols and the magsec smg will play out.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 130	Posted - 2013.06.18 22:26:00 - [46] - Quote Eskel Bondfree wrote: Draco Cerberus wrote: I don't think it was a rant but prove me wrong. I spend alot of time in matches where it seems like blue dot's are either afking or tired of pushing and give up. If you give the amarr Logi suit the added weapon why not give the caldari Logi the shield buffs. None of the bonuses are the same throughout the classes from one specialized suit to the next. This is where choices come into play, the choice to have low pg and cpu and high shields as a caldari logi is balanced when compared to the galente Logi who have high armor, pg and cpu bonuses. The reason they are the way they are is fairly evident if you play Eve. Caldari have shields, Galente have armor and Minmitar can tank either way while Amarr generally tank armor. The suits line up with their respective races and don't seem unfair in any way to me. The thread is about the need for a nerf which at this point in time I have yet to see any evidence that the Caldari Logi CK.0 is unbalanced. Not because I haven't looked for it but because I have used it and seen the possibilities but also the negative in the suit and in my opinion it is not overpowered, far from it and although I don't think it needs a buff I feel it is not what many people make it out to be. If the Caldari Assault CK.0 were buffed slightly I don't believe it would hurt much either but I believe that if one were to use both suits with maxed out shield skills and a complex buffer tank you would probably find they were very close to an even match with the Assault suit able to gun down the logi suit 9 out of 10 times solely because of the need to reload and the lower armor the Logi suit has. This is also not a rant. As for my previous dissertion about blue dots not pushing up on objectives, well if you had been in the pub matches I was in last night you would probably agree with me. Thank you for providing the link discussing the attributes yet you forget one thing, 120 armor base vs 90 armor base, the amount of Hp left when a flux grenade is added to the mix. That is the suit's weakness and yes it does balance the suit. 3 rounds from a militia assault rifle will kill that suit when fluxed. You can load on all the shield extenders you want and one flux nade will still remove all of them sir. Sorry for calling your answer a rant, I perceived it as kind of hostile, I guess I just got you the wrong way. But anyway, I stand by my point, giving up mobility and a sidearm does not matter enough to make basic and assault suits really relevant outside of ambush matches. And I'd rather see assault and basic suits or weapon balance touched than the logi suits nerfed in general. Especially basic suits need to be looked at because they are completely redundant at the moment. As for assaults gunning down logis 9 out of 10 times, I can't agree. The logi has an extra 125 HP in shields, and it can make up for the missing 38 armor HP (after skills) easily by fitting a basic armor plate in its extra low slot, using the extra CPU/PG the suit has (with the new armor plates probably even without loosing speed). But there's no way to decide this so it's a mood point. Quote: Until such a time as non-AR LW options are once again robust and equal the actual value of the sidearm slot will be overshadowed by the dominant "one size fits all" adaptability of the AR. I sure hope you're right, but I'm not convinced we'll have that anytime soon. My biggest hope is that the removal of a hard limit for weapon ranges will change the situation for the better. And let's see how the other racial pistols and the magsec smg will play out. What you are forgetting is the prevalence of Flux grenades in pub and PC matches alike. With no shields the caldari logi is about as helpless as a little girl in a pedo's bedroom. At a base of 90 armor HP 118 maxed armor the suit has the ability to withstand exactly 3.5 bullets from a Militia AR. Which are easy to deliver at 750 RPM.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 130	Posted - 2013.06.18 22:47:00 - [47] - Quote Eskel Bondfree wrote: Reduced mobiliy and lack of a side arm for logis is fine, but it's not enough to truly differentiate them from assault and basic suits. And it's because having that side arm as an assault doesn't matter 90% of the time, the side arm slot is simply not valuable enough. To me that sidearm and mobility is enough. I have played every role at least once and know how valuable that sidearm is when pushing into a red pack. You simply do not have any time to reload. As an assault you don't have the support role and it is necessary to keep the bullets flying so that logis can do their jobs. As a heavy the reload time on an HMG is long and can get you killed if you don't have a sidearm. As a scout an SMG is very worthwhile for close quarters action because its hard to aim a sniper rifle when your enemy is right beside you. That said I am a logi and have my squad to support me while I reload, and rep and resupply and place charges and hack objectives and check the map for the other teams uplinks so that i can use my fluxes to destroy them. A logi is a jack of all trades but a master of none. Period.
Eskel Bondfree DUST University Ivy League 107	Posted - 2013.06.19 19:18:00 - [48] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Eskel Bondfree wrote: Reduced mobiliy and lack of a side arm for logis is fine, but it's not enough to truly differentiate them from assault and basic suits. And it's because having that side arm as an assault doesn't matter 90% of the time, the side arm slot is simply not valuable enough. To me that sidearm and mobility is enough. I have played every role at least once and know how valuable that sidearm is when pushing into a red pack. You simply do not have any time to reload. As an assault you don't have the support role and it is necessary to keep the bullets flying so that logis can do their jobs. As a heavy the reload time on an HMG is long and can get you killed if you don't have a sidearm. As a scout an SMG is very worthwhile for close quarters action because its hard to aim a sniper rifle when your enemy is right beside you. That said I am a logi and have my squad to support me while I reload, and rep and resupply and place charges and hack objectives and check the map for the other teams uplinks so that i can use my fluxes to destroy them. A logi is a jack of all trades but a master of none. Period. No doubt the sidearm is invaluable for scouts and heavies. When I was talking about basic suits I meant the medium frame basic suits, I should have clarified that. If a medium basic/assault suit runs a fully automatic light weapon (and almost everyone does, except for sniper and AV fits), the sidearm is good mainly for one thing: as a backup when you've emptied your main weapon's magazin in the middle of a fire fight. I think being in this situation means very often that someone was not backed up by their squad, or was charging into a fight with multiple enemies ending up outnumbered. In other words, the need to swap to your sidearm probably means you did a wrong decision anyway, and it would be more clever to not make this mistake in the first place. Having that sidearm is certainly useful, but imho it's far from being a necessety for any competent assault player that is backed up by competent squad mates. And reload times for automatic weapons are actually pretty short and can even be shortened further through SP investment. Quote: What you are forgetting is the prevalence of Flux grenades in pub and PC matches alike. With no shields the caldari logi is about as helpless as a little girl in a pedo's bedroom. At a base of 90 armor HP 118 maxed armor the suit has the ability to withstand exactly 3.5 bullets from a Militia AR. Which are easy to deliver at 750 RPM. But like I said, the logi can fit more than those extra 38 HP in armor without losing anything. Also, hitting someone with a flux outside of confined spaces and/or at medium range is not easy, there's a good chance your flux will miss its target.


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