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Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 120	Posted - 2013.06.17 14:29:00 - [1] - Quote I believe the flux grenades are working as designed. Damage dealt by flux grenades works like this: Any player equipment in the AOE of a flux is destroyed, any player not behind cover from the origin of the flux blast loses their shields, any player behind cover when flux blast occurs is protected from it's effects. As for the logistics suit, a good fitting costs more than the assault or heavy suits and gets killed quicker if focus fired upon, that is the balancing factor. The assaults have higher base stats on all racial variants and so, if used in an assault role, the logi suit does not reign supreme, but rather is ok for the support role because they support the assaults and heavies. The only reason for the higher PG and CPU is to be able to fit the equipment. The Logi suits have less tank slots on all racial variants than their assault suits so in all reality I find the balance the logi cry laughable, even when limited to the Caldari logi, which I have just recently respeced out of. It wasn't the premier suit and it certainly didn't provide me with a gigantic amount of hp, but it did give me a healty fear of flux nades and a respect for those of you who think that a 90Hp armor buffer for your flux naded suit will keep you alive long enough for your shield to regenerate so that I need more that 2 rounds from my ninja nerfed TAC Duvolle to kill you. We all make choices in this game, learning to live with them is the game. Meta everything and you will not have problems but go to the market to check first what the stats are and what the skill bonuses do for the equipment and suit being compared. Often skilling into something will provide an unforseen boost to a players stats when they achieve the skill level required to use a piece of equipment. In the case of the Caldari Logi suit, 5% bonus to shields per level is perfectly acceptable, they still drop to 0% shields when hit with a flux nade.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 122	Posted - 2013.06.17 16:18:00 - [2] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Draco Cerberus wrote: I believe the flux grenades are working as designed. Damage dealt by flux grenades works like this: Any player equipment in the AOE of a flux is destroyed, any player not behind cover from the origin of the flux blast loses their shields, any player behind cover when flux blast occurs is protected from it's effects. As for the logistics suit, a good fitting costs more than the assault or heavy suits and gets killed quicker if focus fired upon, that is the balancing factor. The assaults have higher base stats on all racial variants and so, if used in an assault role, the logi suit does not reign supreme, but rather is ok for the support role because they support the assaults and heavies. The only reason for the higher PG and CPU is to be able to fit the equipment. The Logi suits have less tank slots on all racial variants than their assault suits so in all reality I find the balance the logi cry laughable, even when limited to the Caldari logi, which I have just recently respeced out of. It wasn't the premier suit and it certainly didn't provide me with a gigantic amount of hp, but it did give me a healty fear of flux nades and a respect for those of you who think that a 90Hp armor buffer for your flux naded suit will keep you alive long enough for your shield to regenerate so that I need more that 2 rounds from my ninja nerfed TAC Duvolle to kill you. We all make choices in this game, learning to live with them is the game. Meta everything and you will not have problems but go to the market to check first what the stats are and what the skill bonuses do for the equipment and suit being compared. Often skilling into something will provide an unforseen boost to a players stats when they achieve the skill level required to use a piece of equipment. In the case of the Caldari Logi suit, 5% bonus to shields per level is perfectly acceptable, they still drop to 0% shields when hit with a flux nade. You shouldn't really be able to protect yourself from an EMP behind any random object. Why not? IRL a wall will reduce the amount of signal that a cell phone transmits to a Cell-tower. Also if you go for an X-ray at the hospital or dentist they will drape a lead apron over you to protect you from radiation associated with the X-ray. Many forms of radiation are blocked by non-conductive objects IRL so why would you even argue the point?
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 125	Posted - 2013.06.17 18:36:00 - [3] - Quote Eskel Bondfree wrote: Draco Cerberus wrote: The Logi suits have less tank slots on all racial variants than their assault suits so in all reality I find the balance the logi cry laughable Actually, all logi suits have more module slots than their racial assault suit, except for the Amarr. Gallente and Minmatar have one extra slot, Caldari has two. Draco Cerberus wrote: the Caldari logi, which I have just recently respeced out of. It wasn't the premier suit and it certainly didn't provide me with a gigantic amount of hp, but it did give me a healty fear of flux nades and a respect for those of you who think that a 90Hp armor buffer for your flux naded suit will keep you alive long enough for your shield to regenerate so that I need more that 2 rounds from my ninja nerfed TAC Duvolle to kill you. How is that different from the Caldari assault or basic suit? All shield tanked suits are vulnerable to flux nades, it has nothing to do with the fact that Caldari logi suits seem imbalanced compared to Caldari assault or basic suits. You are right, I forgot that the Caldari Assault CK.0 has 4 high, 3 Low, 1 Sidearm, 1 Light weapon, 1 grenade and one equipment slot. It is also faster and starts out with 210HP shield from base HP (no skills trained) and 120 HP armor (no skills trained). The Caldari Logistics CK.0 on the other hand has at the base level (no skills trained at all) 180 shield, 90 armor and a 5 hp lower shield recharge rate (20 hp/s) than the Assault CK.0 (25 hp/s). I still don't see any imbalance. With proper fitting I have seen the Assault CK.0 decimate troops on the field far quicker than the Logistics CK.0 just with their speed alone. Both are Meta level 7 suits. Do not start to compare a meta 1 or 3 suit with a meta level 7 because there is no comparison. You are also right about all shield tanked suits being vulnerable to Flux grenades, but you forget that we are talking specifically about a Logistics CK.0 suit so this is the counter for it and other shield tanked suits. The movement speed of the logistics suit is the most notable disadvantage to it as an assault player. Logistics CK.0 has a move of 4,7 and a sprint of 6.6, sprint duration of 11.5 s and a stamina of 115 with stamina recharge rate at 12.0/s. The Assault CK.0 has a move of 5m/s, sprint of 7m/s, sprint duration of 15.0s, stamina 150 and stamina recharge rate is 15.0/s. While a Logistics CK.0 has more tank slots (5 highs) it is vulnerable to fire longer (movement speeds and recharge rates. This means that when the shields are gone it is more vulnerable and also is not as quick to find cover. On a side note, maybe there would be less logis playing the assault role if some of you assaults would just step up and play assault instead of hiding. Some days I wonder why it seems like my squad is the only one pushing up on an objective. I look at the map and see a big blue group sitting on top of a building somewhere trying to protect an objective rather than take the next one. All the while my yellow healing butt is the one running around the packs of enemies that you assaults seem to have a hard time finding and shooting.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 125	Posted - 2013.06.17 18:39:00 - [4] - Quote Tallen Ellecon wrote: I love my Gallente proto logi. It lets me do logi stuff well. Higher base stats, especially speed (especially with the armor tank) would be nice, but I think they are sufficient. I can throw shield extenders on those 3 high slots, and the 5 low slots allow a decent armor tank/rep. The drawback is that the 4 equipment slots take up a lot of CPU/PG that even with the racial bonus keeps me from wielding a weapon beyond standard. I think I'm using the suit as intended and it works well. If there were more restrictions on the logi suit and more bonuses towards its support role I wouldn't have a problem with it, but the Gallente suit is fine. The Caldari suit needs retweeking, but I fear if they do too much all the assaults who jumped into logi for the bonus will demand respecs. I personally have no sympathy for someone using a logi suit as a killing machine, so if change does come I'll be fine. Just don't mess with my Gallente Logi. The Electronics and Engineering skills in proper doses along with a few more ranks into you gun will fix that. I had the same problem for a while then did some checking through the skills.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 126	Posted - 2013.06.17 19:19:00 - [5] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: hackerzilla wrote: LEAVE THE CALDARI LOGI ALONE NOW!!! Your name is hackerzilla. Your post is invalid. His post got a like and this one won't from me
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 126	Posted - 2013.06.17 19:21:00 - [6] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Take up Cross's challenge and prove us wrong. This again and again and again
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 126	Posted - 2013.06.17 19:24:00 - [7] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: More what I'm saying is that the Logi suit is about as OP as the Tac AR was. The Tac AR, contrary to what some people here have said, was NEVER overpowered. It did exactly what it was supposed to, but it was also good at a few too many other things as well. Logistics suits aren't overpowered, but rather good at many different roles. Basically, our current Logistics suits are "Jack-of-all-Trades" suits. You can fit them in a variety of ways and have them fill that role you made for them perfectly. While the other suits push more specialization, these suits are the Tech-III ships of Dust, allowing you to basically make them do whatever you wish. They don't make you magically better than everyone else, but they let you be far more flexible in the number of uses you can get from a single suit. Numbers and screenshots or it didn't happen Seriously tho the old TAR was completely broken and any assessment to the contrary is simply an outright lack of testing/dismissal of evidence. Prior to the nerf the TAR was able to kill LAVs at range, was able to do more damage than a Laser at optimal, was able to kill shotgunners in CQC after the shotty fired off it's first blast... and the list goes on that way. The simple and obvious saturation of the weapon speaks volumes on it's own, when a single weapon is more common on the field than many weapon types it's a good bet that weapon is pushing beyond proper balance. The Cal Logi suit is not overpowered but the Cal Logi racial skill pretty clearly is. I've been laying this option out in many threads for most of the build and have yet to see an example in response. Build me a combat viable Logi fit that follows these rules Build best fit with it's racial Assault counterpart to establish a baseline Build the Logi fit to meet or exceed all stats of the Assault suit, without omitting or cheery picking from the stat block Build the above fits without use of the AR Build the above fits without use of the Cal Logi suit OR without including any skill buffs in listed stats. After normalizing stats (i.e. fitting to at least match as per #2) make best efforts to fill open slots. Tally SP required to unlock/fit all mods used for the fitting Tally ISK cost of the fitting including all mods and suits List the results Thus far all results I've seen have come down to the following. Assault suits get more value out of passive skills due to higher on board stats Assault suits fits cost less ISK/SP on average for comparable fits Logi suits have 2-3 extra Equipment slots Logi suits can hyper specialize into a single area at the expense of falling short in all/nearly all other areas Risk vs Reward - If a fit costs more ISK, more SP and still retains other limits then it's not broken Racial Skills - The racial buff on the Cal Logi needs toned down, and the racial skills for the Assault suits need some love to give them better 'gank' value. The Logi line =/= the Cal Logi. The Cal Logi suit =/= the Cal Logi suit + it's racial skill The OP'ness of the Cal Logi suit + racial skill =/= the OP'ness of the pre nerf TAR which did not cost more ISK or SP than other weapons of the same Meta nor did it require specialization within fittings to excel or have a list of inferior stats within its block. Being able to do too many things too well at once/at the same cost is most certainly a balance issue and that's what the TAR did. That is a threshold that even the Cal Logi suit (with it's currently OP racial buff) cannot attain in equal measure, even less so is it something the entire dropsuit line is capable of. 0.02 ISK Cross Here's the challenge if you missed it the first 2 times...
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 126	Posted - 2013.06.17 22:01:00 - [8] - Quote I don't think it was a rant but prove me wrong. I spend alot of time in matches where it seems like blue dot's are either afking or tired of pushing and give up. If you give the amarr Logi suit the added weapon why not give the caldari Logi the shield buffs. None of the bonuses are the same throughout the classes from one specialized suit to the next. This is where choices come into play, the choice to have low pg and cpu and high shields as a caldari logi is balanced when compared to the galente Logi who have high armor, pg and cpu bonuses. The reason they are the way they are is fairly evident if you play Eve. Caldari have shields, Galente have armor and Minmitar can tank either way while Amarr generally tank armor. The suits line up with their respective races and don't seem unfair in any way to me. The thread is about the need for a nerf which at this point in time I have yet to see any evidence that the Caldari Logi CK.0 is unbalanced. Not because I haven't looked for it but because I have used it and seen the possibilities but also the negative in the suit and in my opinion it is not overpowered, far from it and although I don't think it needs a buff I feel it is not what many people make it out to be. If the Caldari Assault CK.0 were buffed slightly I don't believe it would hurt much either but I believe that if one were to use both suits with maxed out shield skills and a complex buffer tank you would probably find they were very close to an even match with the Assault suit able to gun down the logi suit 9 out of 10 times solely because of the need to reload and the lower armor the Logi suit has. This is also not a rant. As for my previous dissertion about blue dots not pushing up on objectives, well if you had been in the pub matches I was in last night you would probably agree with me.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 130	Posted - 2013.06.18 22:26:00 - [9] - Quote Eskel Bondfree wrote: Draco Cerberus wrote: I don't think it was a rant but prove me wrong. I spend alot of time in matches where it seems like blue dot's are either afking or tired of pushing and give up. If you give the amarr Logi suit the added weapon why not give the caldari Logi the shield buffs. None of the bonuses are the same throughout the classes from one specialized suit to the next. This is where choices come into play, the choice to have low pg and cpu and high shields as a caldari logi is balanced when compared to the galente Logi who have high armor, pg and cpu bonuses. The reason they are the way they are is fairly evident if you play Eve. Caldari have shields, Galente have armor and Minmitar can tank either way while Amarr generally tank armor. The suits line up with their respective races and don't seem unfair in any way to me. The thread is about the need for a nerf which at this point in time I have yet to see any evidence that the Caldari Logi CK.0 is unbalanced. Not because I haven't looked for it but because I have used it and seen the possibilities but also the negative in the suit and in my opinion it is not overpowered, far from it and although I don't think it needs a buff I feel it is not what many people make it out to be. If the Caldari Assault CK.0 were buffed slightly I don't believe it would hurt much either but I believe that if one were to use both suits with maxed out shield skills and a complex buffer tank you would probably find they were very close to an even match with the Assault suit able to gun down the logi suit 9 out of 10 times solely because of the need to reload and the lower armor the Logi suit has. This is also not a rant. As for my previous dissertion about blue dots not pushing up on objectives, well if you had been in the pub matches I was in last night you would probably agree with me. Thank you for providing the link discussing the attributes yet you forget one thing, 120 armor base vs 90 armor base, the amount of Hp left when a flux grenade is added to the mix. That is the suit's weakness and yes it does balance the suit. 3 rounds from a militia assault rifle will kill that suit when fluxed. You can load on all the shield extenders you want and one flux nade will still remove all of them sir. Sorry for calling your answer a rant, I perceived it as kind of hostile, I guess I just got you the wrong way. But anyway, I stand by my point, giving up mobility and a sidearm does not matter enough to make basic and assault suits really relevant outside of ambush matches. And I'd rather see assault and basic suits or weapon balance touched than the logi suits nerfed in general. Especially basic suits need to be looked at because they are completely redundant at the moment. As for assaults gunning down logis 9 out of 10 times, I can't agree. The logi has an extra 125 HP in shields, and it can make up for the missing 38 armor HP (after skills) easily by fitting a basic armor plate in its extra low slot, using the extra CPU/PG the suit has (with the new armor plates probably even without loosing speed). But there's no way to decide this so it's a mood point. Quote: Until such a time as non-AR LW options are once again robust and equal the actual value of the sidearm slot will be overshadowed by the dominant "one size fits all" adaptability of the AR. I sure hope you're right, but I'm not convinced we'll have that anytime soon. My biggest hope is that the removal of a hard limit for weapon ranges will change the situation for the better. And let's see how the other racial pistols and the magsec smg will play out. What you are forgetting is the prevalence of Flux grenades in pub and PC matches alike. With no shields the caldari logi is about as helpless as a little girl in a pedo's bedroom. At a base of 90 armor HP 118 maxed armor the suit has the ability to withstand exactly 3.5 bullets from a Militia AR. Which are easy to deliver at 750 RPM.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 130	Posted - 2013.06.18 22:47:00 - [10] - Quote Eskel Bondfree wrote: Reduced mobiliy and lack of a side arm for logis is fine, but it's not enough to truly differentiate them from assault and basic suits. And it's because having that side arm as an assault doesn't matter 90% of the time, the side arm slot is simply not valuable enough. To me that sidearm and mobility is enough. I have played every role at least once and know how valuable that sidearm is when pushing into a red pack. You simply do not have any time to reload. As an assault you don't have the support role and it is necessary to keep the bullets flying so that logis can do their jobs. As a heavy the reload time on an HMG is long and can get you killed if you don't have a sidearm. As a scout an SMG is very worthwhile for close quarters action because its hard to aim a sniper rifle when your enemy is right beside you. That said I am a logi and have my squad to support me while I reload, and rep and resupply and place charges and hack objectives and check the map for the other teams uplinks so that i can use my fluxes to destroy them. A logi is a jack of all trades but a master of none. Period.

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