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Asher Night
The Dark Flock
Omega Commission
88
   |
Posted - 2013.06.08 16:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
My 'e' key is broken so bear with me. This is also going to be very long. I've noticed a lot regarding this subject and have a lot to say. This is going to be a serious in depth discussion regarding the way of the scout in this game, and my issues, concerns, and feedback regarding it. But before I can do that, it seems like I'll need to provide some credential to be taken sriously on this board.
Something I've noticed about this forum is that if anyone has a recommendation to change any weapon, they are immediately assaulted with barrages of "get good, noob", or "this isn't CoD". First, let me start of by saying I have only ever played CoD enough times to count on one hand. I've never played the storyline or spent more than 3-4 hours online scattered over the last 3 years. The only time I ever played it was at a friends house. Seemed like an okay game, but there are just too many CoD's for me to feel like jumping in now. I feel like it would be the same as watching Lord of the Rings for the first time ever and having it be the second one. So, no I do not play CoD and am very unfamiliar with it. That said, FPS's are my favorite genre of game. Battlefield 3, Resistance 2/3, MAG - Those are probably my favorite FPS's in the recent years - those are what I base my perception of a "good" FPS off of. So just so we are clear - I love FPS's, and I am not basing my statements and opinions on this game off of CoD.
Now to address the "Get good, noob" part. I am not bad at FPS's I typically always have a KDR of 2 - 1, or higher. I'm proud of it. I earned it. I've accomplished it in enough games to know that I am good, I make the right choices, and I understand FPS's. This is the only FPS I have ever played that I do not have at least a 2 to 1 KDR, and I promise it isn't because I am playing the scout class wrong. If I am, then CCP needs to rethink the class, because it's broken.
I always play as a scout. I don't know why, but it just appeals to me. The pros and cons of the class, and how awesome it looks when you do well has always attracted me. Like Grey Fox when he rips apart that hallway full of armed soldiers and all Solid Snake sees when he turns the corner are dead bodies. I am a very dedicated scout and I'm not bad at it.
Stats:
Battlefield: [IMG]http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm16/OreoVII/Battlefield3_zps31411f05.png[/IMG]
MAG Origianl Account: [IMG]http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm16/OreoVII/20130608_043501_zps350f0873.jpg[/IMG]
If you played MAG, you might be thinking "That doesn't make sense, you don't even get the SMG as a starting weapon". Where theres a will, theres a way, and being a scout I found my way to the SMG with my pistol and knife.
MAG Secondary Account: [IMG]http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm16/OreoVII/20130608_042942_zps0c03ba4d.jpg[/IMG]
Even offline games, I always have love for the way of the scout.
Fallout: [IMG]http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm16/OreoVII/20130608_054243_zpsaf36f03c.jpg[/IMG]
Skyrim: [IMG]http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm16/OreoVII/photobucket-21720-1338624522625.jpg[/IMG]
So like I said, I'm a scout. All I use are rapid "stick and move" type weapons; knives, pistols, and SMG's. Any weapon that is understated, and whateveer armor moves fastest. Unfortunately in this game, the Scout class just doesn't come off as a feasible option. It's there, but it is waaaaay too challenging to utilize. The only effective scouts I've seen really throw up kill counts that I usually make in other games either sprint around with high end shotguns or snipe at objecyives from the MCC or some other unreachable spot. If I meet a scout that does literally anything else, they do average or sub-par. I am not a bad player, but this game has some serious issues that imbalance the Scout class to an unplayable point. I AM NOT SAYING EVERY SINGLE ISSUE NEED TO BE FIXED. I AM JUST SAYING THERE ARE TOO MANY THAT ALL TOGETHER END UP BREAKING THE CLASS:
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Asher Night
The Dark Flock
Omega Commission
88
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 16:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
The Gallente Scout Suit:
- Hit Points - Next to nothing shield, low armor. In the beta, when you upgrade to a new suit, you got more HP. I understand why they got rid of this throughout the entire game, but for scouts I would almost recommend keeping it. Scouts already die with just a few shots, now you can lose hundred of thousands of ISK when you die just as easily as someone that just started the game.
- People complained about the shield charge delay being so short in the beta, but it seems like that was the only thing making the Scout a serious contender on the battlefield. Whenever I meet a scout now I always think "Thank god another scout - this kill will be easy". How many of you think the same thing when you meet a scout. Be honest.
- Proto Scout Suit (Gallente) receives 4 low powered modules and 1 high powered. The Advanced Gallente Scout receives Two high-powered, 2 low-powered. The logic it takes to take modules away from either category blows my mind. It doesn't just lose a highpowered module - it loses speed. Yeah, it actually moves slower than the Advanced scout suit. It's a step 'sideways' at best.
- It's much to difficult to close in on enemies who are backing up, which makes no sense - in real life, you can, and always will, jog/walk forward way easier than you can walk backwards. The speeds are nearly identical right now.
Fixes:
Slight increase to Armor or/and shield. Tinker with shield charging - thy are all scouts really have and they suck. Slight increase to scouts movement speed forward, slight decrease to all suits movement speed backward (including scout)
The Weapons
Every weapon in Dust is designed in a manner to hold it's own - and every weapon can hold it's own. Except the SMG. I do not want to hear anyone saying "Oh it's a sidearm, derp. SMG's aren't supposed to be main weapons". It's a sidearm because it's small - not because it isn't supposed to hold it's own and be useable as a main weapon. Are you going to argue that grenades are small and should be weak? No. becaus it isn't the weapon, it's what the weapon was desinged for, and I promise you SMG's were designed to kill, not punch holes in paper. With how much SP you can sink into any weapon, I am sure that CCP meant for every weeapon to be a mainable weapon. |
Asher Night
The Dark Flock
Omega Commission
88
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 16:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
- SMG
First a couple of facts about the submachine gun TODAY. 1) Barack Obama's body guards carry the P-90. They don't carry it with the intention of running within 5 feet of someone who tries to hurt the President. They use it because it is insanely accurate, has stopping power, large clip, etc. 2) This gun was made 23 years ago (hence "P90". 3) Many SMGs are known to be accurate within 9-12 inches when fired at a target 100yards away. Knowing all this, the SMG in this game is inexcusable.
- The SMG is outperformed by pretty much every weapon right now. Close range? Shotgun, Mass driver, fuse grenades, Flaylock pistols, scrambler pistols, HMG's - all of these will shred through your HP faster than an SMG will. Mid range? AR's, LR's, SR's. Perked out shotguns have a devastating range that also invalidates the SMG from mid range.
- Thousands upon thousands of years from now, I'm sure we will have better SMGs than the P90. None of the SMG's in this game are better than the P90.
- It's absurd how the game expects you to level up the weapon just to get it in standard, expected limits. It starts off with ridiculous underpowered barely useable stats.
- The damage is mediocre. No scout could seriously stand a chance when in a 1v1 face off and both of you see each other at the same time. Scouts have such low HP the only way to use this gun to kill is on unsuspecting enemies, but you have to get so close to make it do damage they have a good chance at knowing you are there. The best way to use it is on enemies already damaged who are firing at other teammates. The damage it does is so low it takes a very long time to kill anyone at full health, aside from scouts.
- The damage other weapons do make this gun worse than bringing a knife to a gunfight. No joke. I can knife better than I can kill with the SMG's in this game.
- To you people who use the SMG and actually think it's fine, do you EVER do as well as I do with the SMG in other games? Trust me, I know what I'm talking about in regards to the SMG in Dust. I promise you, if you think the SMG is fine, you are either a god at gaming and I expect you to show me proof of your 3 to 1 KDR or higher. If you don't have even a 2 to 1 KDR and all you use is the SMG, then I assure you it's mostly because the gun sucks.
- The effective range of this gun is absolutley ridiculous. It requires you to be way, WAY too close. Literally any other weapon will do more damage anyway once you manage to get closer, so what's the point in ever using this gun? Every weapon is better, especially since there are AR's in this game that get 60+ bullets in one clip. The AR is basically what th SMG should be.
- The Pistol? Just fine. Kills quick and easily. The Nova Knives? Just fine. Kills quick and easily (when the hit detection works). Flaylock pistol? From what I hear you need the higher ones to get any kills, but those ones work just fine. ALL OF THESE WEAPONS ARE SIDEARMS - NO ONE COMPLAINS ABOUT THEIR LETHALITY. The fact that the lethality of the SMG sucks is just a mistake that I promis you will be fixed eventually.
Fixes: Add more range to the SMG. Increase (greatly) the effective range of the SMG. Slight damage buff? Add a new sight, because that thing looks... yeah, let's just say if I was the art director that oversaw that, I would have rolled my eyed and told whoever did it to try again. I understand that the SMG will not be the best at any distance, but right now it isn't even adequate at any distance. The way I've always wanted the SMG to be in any FPS is weak but incredibly accurate (because I used to be great at headshots so weak bullets didn't matter). In Dust, I don't think any of us can say we are great at headshots with the way everyone moves. I think a feasiblee SMG would be devestating at close range, adequate at mid range, worthless at long range (but only if it's devastating at close range). Basically like a HMG, except weaker damage, much less ammo,
- Pistol
[list]
- I have no issues with the pistol. Seems fine. I wish everyone got a pistol and it was automatically attached to every fit as a 'second' sidearm, and you could switch it out with a more costly pistol if you chose to do so - but that's just my opinion after knifing so many poor souls who had nothing but a rocket launcher or sniper rifle to try and fight me off from Knifing them.
Fixes:
None. Give everyone an extra secondary slot that has a pistol glued in it? |
Asher Night
The Dark Flock
Omega Commission
88
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 16:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
Knives
- The damage is just fine for the most part.
They need to do more damage to the back. I 've been chasing so many enemies who have no idea I am there, slowly knifing them, then trying to catch back up, knifing them again, rinse and repeat. If they realize to turn around because they aren't just getting shot at, and someone is right behind them, I'm screwed.
- This is because you move forward walking (swiping your knife or charging your knifes makes you walk) at nearly the same speed as anything besides heavies can back up.
- If they see you knifing, and you are maining knives and have no gun You have no chance to knife them You HAVE to run away, but that is hard when there are so many open environmnts and so many enemies.
- Turn speed is too slow. I have my controls turned up to 100/100, and it still takes nearly 2.5 seconds to turn 360 degrees. It doesn't take that long now with my regular 2013 human body. Thousands of years from now when we have machanical servos/motors/combat suits/brian enhancements for our nervous system and have adrenaline pumping into us from the anxiety of being so close to death/killing - I'm sure we will be able to turn around MUCH faster than 2.5 seconds. The senisitivity in this game is really not sensitive at all, and it really shows when you're a scout trying to run away from a failed knifing attempt because an enemy slightly moved and now spotted me.
Fixes:
Add a lunge attack with the knives or make it so charging/swiping with your knives doesn't slow you down. Seriously, it's just a couple of knives. Why would they slow you down as much as firing an assault rifle just because you're clicking a button to charge them? Currently you can jump, then charge them as you jump through the air, but not when sprinting? Somethings wrong with that. Either of these two options would make it so you wouldn't have to adjust the scouts movement speed to meet a target backing away as fast as you can walk forward (backward movement speed should still definitely be fixed). I also think it needs to be made clear what damage modifiers affact the knives. A lot of people are confused on this one. The melee symbol is a tiny knife', yet your melee has nothing to do with your knives (a melee weapon). In cas anyone is wondering, sidearm damage modifiers affect your Nova Knife damage. Bring back the red circle in the center of the screen that shows your knives charging.
[/list]
That's what I think will put the scout class where it need to be. This is not to say keep everything else as it is, I just know more about the scout because it's in my soul and it's all I ever look at. If you really read this much, thank you and I value your opinions. Just remember the first rule of improv - "Yes, and". Just because you may not like mys suggestions because they don't suit your class/character, doesn't mean we can't have my changes and some changes for you as well. Dust is certainly a work in progress. Thank you. |
EXASTRA INVICTAS
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
92
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 16:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
Are we now expected to balance the game based on the whims of someone whose sole argument is "I'm good with the SMG at other video games?" I did indeed fully read your post but you mentioned your KDR so much that it felt like you were trying to shove your superiority complex itself down my throat.
That aside, I will grant you conversation in that I also feel the SMG feels underpowered, but to a different degree than you. If you are using the SMG as a primary weapon, I can understand why you'd be frustrated with it:
Burning through shields with it is nearly impossible. Even vs. Gallente Medium suits.
I will use my Dren Assault Rifle to cut through shields and then swap to my SMG just to shred through the armor. Against armor, it is actually REALLY effective. The issues are RANGE and ACCURACY.
The gun feels like it's inaccurate solely to make it different from pistols. I can understand where they're coming from in a balance perspective, but the gun feels too inaccurate, to be honest. This combined with its limited range make it feel entirely like a spray-and-pray weapon. And hence that is how it's used.
The Scrambler Pistol is, to a certain extent, equal and opposite the SMG. Great accuracy, good range, stronger vs shields than armor, and low fire rate. However, I've never had a problem using the Scrambler Pistol to burn through someone's armor. It's really good against shields, and good enough against armor to get the job done. But the SMG just doesn't have that feel.
Am I going to pretend I know the perfect way to balance it? No. But I can say, don't compare it to real life weapons, please. All of the weapons in this game look like trash compared to modern weapons, modern weapons aren't a balancing factor. |
Zedra Faiolin
Ill Omens
EoN.
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 17:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
While I agree, the SMG could use a little bit more range or just a more specialized dispersion area, like rather than just have 360' spread, have its spread be more vertical or something. I think the more serious issue is that shield extenders don't have any draw-backs like armor has the speed modifier. Or the sig-radius penalty that exists in EVE. All in all I think the gun is only slightly under powered, the primary issue is that the counter to this particular weapon, is just so common place, that the gun itself seems more under powered than it is. |
Shady IceCream Truck
Intergalactic Cannibus Cartel
51
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 18:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
EXASTRA INVICTAS wrote:Are we now expected to balance the game based on the whims of someone whose sole argument is "I'm good with the SMG at other video games?" I did indeed fully read your post but you mentioned your KDR so much that it felt like you were trying to shove your superiority complex itself down my throat.
That aside, I will grant you conversation in that I also feel the SMG feels underpowered, but to a different degree than you. If you are using the SMG as a primary weapon, I can understand why you'd be frustrated with it:
Burning through shields with it is nearly impossible. Even vs. Gallente Medium suits.
I will use my Dren Assault Rifle to cut through shields and then swap to my SMG just to shred through the armor. Against armor, it is actually REALLY effective. The issues are RANGE and ACCURACY.
The gun feels like it's inaccurate solely to make it different from pistols. I can understand where they're coming from in a balance perspective, but the gun feels too inaccurate, to be honest. This combined with its limited range make it feel entirely like a spray-and-pray weapon. And hence that is how it's used.
The Scrambler Pistol is, to a certain extent, equal and opposite the SMG. Great accuracy, good range, stronger vs shields than armor, and low fire rate. However, I've never had a problem using the Scrambler Pistol to burn through someone's armor. It's really good against shields, and good enough against armor to get the job done. But the SMG just doesn't have that feel.
Am I going to pretend I know the perfect way to balance it? No. But I can say, don't compare it to real life weapons, please. All of the weapons in this game look like trash compared to modern weapons, modern weapons aren't a balancing factor.
this is about scouts. and he clearly demonstrated they are broken.. try again |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1464
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 19:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
I play as a scout (albeit a minmatar scout, so I can't give feedback for the gallente one) and they seem fine to me.
SMGs already have a ton of range this build, and don't need more
The vast majority of my kills are with nova knives- they seem fine, if not slightly OP to me. However, judging by racial bonuses, minmatar scouts are meant for the CQC playstyle you're using. The stats of Gallente scouts seem more tuned towards sniping.
The biggest problem for scout right now are the maps- most maps are ideal for using medium or heavy frame suits, and aren't designed with scouts in mind. Hopefully that won't be a problem next time the maps expand.
Hit detection is another problem that hits scouts harder than anything else, but that's a technical issue- not with the game design itself. |
EXASTRA INVICTAS
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
96
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 19:09:00 -
[9] - Quote
Shady IceCream Truck wrote:EXASTRA INVICTAS wrote:Are we now expected to balance the game based on the whims of someone whose sole argument is "I'm good with the SMG at other video games?" I did indeed fully read your post but you mentioned your KDR so much that it felt like you were trying to shove your superiority complex itself down my throat.
That aside, I will grant you conversation in that I also feel the SMG feels underpowered, but to a different degree than you. If you are using the SMG as a primary weapon, I can understand why you'd be frustrated with it:
Burning through shields with it is nearly impossible. Even vs. Gallente Medium suits.
I will use my Dren Assault Rifle to cut through shields and then swap to my SMG just to shred through the armor. Against armor, it is actually REALLY effective. The issues are RANGE and ACCURACY.
The gun feels like it's inaccurate solely to make it different from pistols. I can understand where they're coming from in a balance perspective, but the gun feels too inaccurate, to be honest. This combined with its limited range make it feel entirely like a spray-and-pray weapon. And hence that is how it's used.
The Scrambler Pistol is, to a certain extent, equal and opposite the SMG. Great accuracy, good range, stronger vs shields than armor, and low fire rate. However, I've never had a problem using the Scrambler Pistol to burn through someone's armor. It's really good against shields, and good enough against armor to get the job done. But the SMG just doesn't have that feel.
Am I going to pretend I know the perfect way to balance it? No. But I can say, don't compare it to real life weapons, please. All of the weapons in this game look like trash compared to modern weapons, modern weapons aren't a balancing factor. this is about scouts. and he clearly demonstrated they are broken.. try again
Your posts always seem to be chock full of useful information. He made nearly an entire post dedicated to the SMG, and only a little over a paragraph related to the scout itself. The majority of his original post was "about scouts" in that "oh look at me I'm good at First Person Shooters" "I'm a scout!" "look at my kills in other games!" "Did I mention I don't play that scrub game CoD?"
His major problem with the scout class is its weaponry, if you had paid attention. He likes the Pistol fine, wants lunging on the knives, and finds the module slot progression (and speed progression) of the scout suit to be bonkers. One of his major problems is that the scout class is entirely unfinished. The scout suit was made for the Covert Ops role, and if you flew a Covert Ops ship in EVE without T2 cloaks, you're a moron.
Anyone can tell that the problem with the Scout suit itself is that it's too easy for people to notice your presence. You're supposed to be sneaky, not charging from the front. But when you're just as visible as everyone else, you are failing at your role. The problem for this doesn't lie in the gamer, but in the lack of the cloak.
Do knives need lunging? No, they need a cloak.
Do SMGs need a huge damage buff and range buff? No, but they are in need of a SLIGHT buff in some form.
Do Scout suits need more HP? No, their EHP is fine as is with their speed. They need cloaks.
Is the pistol really fine? Yes.
Does moving backwards need fixed? Yes, slightly.
Do Gallente scouts speeds need fixed? Equalized at least.
Try again. |
OZAROW
Elements Of Death Elite
Omega Commission
29
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 22:51:00 -
[10] - Quote
I made anothe post about knives here's my copy paste an I do agree with lunging cloak cool too but if u can't reach a guy what good is it!
It's a speed based hit an run assassin , yes you need to be a ghost but sometimes you gotta charge three guys hacking a letter an be ballzy or else what good are u? An the smg won't save u proficient knives on a proto mini scout will but if they can walk faster back wards faster than a suit with the fastest movement speed in the game can walk forward charging knives that should have a charge an lunge skill attached to the knives makes them obsolete , nOt to mention that if u are a dedicated knifer (which is the primary focus of that suit hence the bonus) you can't fit much else on the suit other than knives speed mods an shields unless you optimize your gun an dump all points into one gun optimization , light weapon operation an max CPU pg, that's millions of points then if they nerf the gun u pick your ready to take your ps3 to a skeet range! The knives need a lunging skill after proficiency lv 5 so every dummie in the game isn't useing them an saying their op!
If u have proto racial suit five knife bonus plus their proficiency is up plus you have complex hand to hand mod, ur killing anything us stab as you should but that doesn't excuse a scout reduced to walking to charge them an any other suit can walk faster back wards !!!? Give me a break! If I'm a foot from you you should be dead plain an simple! If I snuck up on a hole squad theirs no way I should have to walk an charge, I mean for peet sake a master proto scout with knives can't run while holding a pair of scissors?
I agree with original poster an will copy paste my idea I sent to ccp |
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OZAROW
Elements Of Death Elite
Omega Commission
29
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 22:51:00 -
[11] - Quote
Hello I am a huge fan of this game an love the concept an freedom of it. I am a minmatar scout an I run stacked complex kinetic sprint mods, an proto nova knives since I assume that's how you designed this character to be .
My issues involve the moving attack. I am good with the knives but for some reason this design is flawed due to the fact that when stalking a enemy from behind the only way to attack is a perfectly timed jump charge, you cannot reach the opponent while he's walking an stalk with equal speed charging. Then when your noticed you cannot reach a opponent that is walking backwards shooting plus the m scout is meta level 0 which gets destroyed by any gun .
So my question an resolution is why can a character with the fastest movement speed in the game be out walked by any suit especially a heavy suit that probably weighs over a ton?
My suggestions are speed up the movement speed of the scouts, 2 : slow down the backwards walking speed of characters of the scout( which will upset everyone although it's realistic) or my 3 rd more appropriate suggestion for knives is to add a skill after nova knive proficiency lv 5 to unlock a charging dash skill called ( thrusting) or lundging that is a five leveled skill that gives you a .5 second charge an dash per level.
So you unlock this for the dedicated knifers after completing proficiency lv 5 an once you complete the 5th level of "lunging" it will give you a 2.5 second dash to achieve attacks that will balence the knives on the field for a suit that is basically ment to practically use this as a primary weapon. Which also means that in order for kills with this weapon to be effective you will need endurance levels to 5 then the complex kinetic cats to make the knives effective plus a scout suit plus nova knives to proficiency to level 5 to even make this skill usefull an you can even make endurance , kinetic cats, nova knive operation 5 an proficiency lv 5 to even unlock lunging.
This I believe is fair an a great idea so every average joe in the game isn't abusing them and complaining, you don't have to change anything just add this realistic skill.
Please consider this suggestion an give the scouts a viable weapon the plays from the dampening an speed skill, it's not fair to get that close only to be out run by someone moving backwards, this way you don't have to change anything else to be able to use the knives better just a skill an if people don't like the deadlyness of this scout skill too bad because it's a necessary skill for hand to hand an with my suggestion of prerequisite skills the people that open this skill deserve it because of all the points needed to open it.
Thank you for reading this I hope you deeply apply this skill to the tree.
Keep up the great work I'm in for the long haul.
Have a great day |
Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis
50
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 18:43:00 -
[12] - Quote
I commend OP on taking the time to share his thoughts so thoroughly. For what it's worth, I agree with many of his points.
Whether we agree or disagree on particulars, the standing scout community is small and under-represented. The more we speak up the sooner our requests (whether meritorious or otherwise) will be heard.
Friendly Bump to my scoutly brother  .
- Shotty GoBang |
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