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Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1781
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Posted - 2013.05.31 02:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
How to fix Alpha in one step -
Double all HP. Double all headshot values (so 1.2 becomes 2.4).
Game instantly becomes more skill based without affecting TTK in good player vs good player situations. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
84
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Posted - 2013.05.31 02:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:How to fix Alpha in one step -
Double all HP. Double all headshot values (so 1.2 becomes 2.4).
Game instantly becomes more skill based without affecting TTK in good player vs good player situations.
So instead of 1 clip I need two clips now, gotcha.
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Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1781
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Posted - 2013.05.31 02:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:
So instead of 1 clip I need two clips now, gotcha.
Exactly the same time to kill if you can aim. Double if you can't. Are you saying you can't aim? |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
618
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 02:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:How to fix Alpha in one step -
Double all HP. Double all headshot values (so 1.2 becomes 2.4).
Game instantly becomes more skill based without affecting TTK in good player vs good player situations. So instead of 1 clip I need two clips now, gotcha. Exactly the same time to kill if you can aim. Double if you can't.
How's that going to work now for MD users? Not all of us use the AR you know. Headshots aren't exactly something that works well as a mechanic for MD users. |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
102
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Posted - 2013.05.31 02:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
I'm all for the less twitch, more strafe direction the game is going in, but doubling all HP is a bit excessive. You must have missed out on replication where the damage vs HP values were near perfect and movement speed was significantly faster while scouts were strafing beasts. Combat was more extended and fast paced, favoring tactics and accuracy over an itchy trigger finger. Those were good times, and I keep coming back in the hopes that these parameters return. |
Mithridates VI
IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback
1832
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Posted - 2013.05.31 02:28:00 -
[6] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:How to fix Alpha in one step -
Double all HP. Double all headshot values (so 1.2 becomes 2.4).
Game instantly becomes more skill based without affecting TTK in good player vs good player situations. So instead of 1 clip I need two clips now, gotcha. Exactly the same time to kill if you can aim. Double if you can't. How's that going to work now for MD users? Not all of us use the AR you know. Headshots aren't exactly something that works well as a mechanic for MD users. Adapt or die? |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1782
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Posted - 2013.05.31 02:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote: How's that going to work now for MD users? Not all of us use the AR you know. Headshots aren't exactly something that works well as a mechanic for MD users.
Give the weapon more splash damage range to compensate? Honestly the pop pop dead is silly in the first place. Besides I know mass drivers users who can get the headshot if they want to, atm they don't bother. |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
618
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 02:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mithridates VI wrote:Buster Friently wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:How to fix Alpha in one step -
Double all HP. Double all headshot values (so 1.2 becomes 2.4).
Game instantly becomes more skill based without affecting TTK in good player vs good player situations. So instead of 1 clip I need two clips now, gotcha. Exactly the same time to kill if you can aim. Double if you can't. How's that going to work now for MD users? Not all of us use the AR you know. Headshots aren't exactly something that works well as a mechanic for MD users. Adapt or die?
Ironically, that is what you guys should be doing now I guess, right? |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
618
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Posted - 2013.05.31 02:34:00 -
[9] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:Buster Friently wrote: How's that going to work now for MD users? Not all of us use the AR you know. Headshots aren't exactly something that works well as a mechanic for MD users.
Give the weapon more splash damage range to compensate? Honestly the pop pop dead is silly in the first place. Besides I know mass drivers users who can get the headshot if they want to, atm they don't bother.
And forge gun users? They're supposed to headshot as well? Hey, I guess RE users should headshot too? I'm sorry, but this seems kinda stupid in my opinion. I don't think boom-headshot 514 is the right way to go. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1782
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Posted - 2013.05.31 02:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:Buster Friently wrote: How's that going to work now for MD users? Not all of us use the AR you know. Headshots aren't exactly something that works well as a mechanic for MD users.
Give the weapon more splash damage range to compensate? Honestly the pop pop dead is silly in the first place. Besides I know mass drivers users who can get the headshot if they want to, atm they don't bother. And forge gun users? They're supposed to headshot as well? Hey, I guess RE users should headshot too? I'm sorry, but this seems kinda stupid in my opinion. I don't think boom-headshot 514 is the right way to go.
Hint, both of those weapons would still one-hit kill almost any suit. But at least the beefiest of the beefcakes could survive a glancing hit from a militia weapon with this change. |
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Scottie MaCallan
Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic
10
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Posted - 2013.05.31 02:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
this solution is really only applicable to snipers, TAC, etc.
what about mass drivers? shotguns? flaylock? SMG? remote explosives?
headshots != infallible measure of skill
for example, when I traverse the map in my minmatar shotgun scout, the majority of my skill shows when I am able to avoid my enemy's line of sight long enough to get within shotgun range. While getting a headshot is fun and all, landing the entire shotgun spread on their head is not what the shotgun is about. Maybe if you use breach that's another type of skill. but to me, my skill lies in utilizing cover and flanking tactics.
This is not to say I can't aim. My sidearm of choice is a flaylock. I can usually land a direct hit, even at range. Although again, headshots are not a strong suit of that style of play. What's more important is that I land the direct hit on the target. This is great for finishing heavy armor tanks.
so yea, basically:
alpha != snipers/marksmen
although
sniper == alpha (usually) |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1782
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 02:38:00 -
[12] - Quote
Scottie MaCallan wrote:this solution is really only applicable to snipers, TAC, etc.
what about mass drivers? shotguns? flaylock? SMG? remote explosives?
headshots != infallible measure of skill
for example, when I traverse the map in my minmatar shotgun scout, the majority of my skill shows when I am able to avoid my enemy's line of sight long enough to get within shotgun range. While getting a headshot is fun and all, landing the entire shotgun spread on their head is not what the shotgun is about. Maybe if you use breach that's another type of skill. but to me, my skill lies in utilizing cover and flanking tactics.
This is not to say I can't aim. My sidearm of choice is a flaylock. I can usually land a direct hit, even at range. Although again, headshots are not a strong suit of that style of play. What's more important is that I land the direct hit on the target. This is great for finishing heavy armor tanks.
so yea, basically:
alpha != snipers/marksmen
although
sniper == alpha (usually)
Funny, all those weapons are the reasons this change would be good. |
Scottie MaCallan
Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 02:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
I'm not saying that HP is perfectly balanced. I'm pointing out you'd be essentially doubling the TTK on non-headshot reliant classes. and that headshots are not the only measure of FPS skill |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1782
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 02:43:00 -
[14] - Quote
Scottie MaCallan wrote:I'm not saying that HP is perfectly balanced. I'm pointing out you'd be essentially doubling the TTK on non-headshot reliant classes. and that headshots are not the only measure of FPS skill
In a tracking shooter, yeah, they kind of are. |
Scottie MaCallan
Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 02:54:00 -
[15] - Quote
they are one metric through which relative skill can be measured
there's also situational awareness, tactical flanking, use of cover, weapon choice, etc.
shotguns, mass drivers, etc. fall under weapon choice, and each require other skills to be effective (tactical flanking & use of cover for shotguns, use of cover & situational awareness for mass drivers) All of these skills are important, and each player is stronger in different areas. You're trying to promote tracking & headshot ability above the others. It doesn't matter how well I can use cover and flank if the second after I open fire (and with 2 or so more shotgun shots left to kill), someone turns around and uses your 2.4x headshot multiplier to obliterate my scout suit just as fast as they can now. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1782
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 02:58:00 -
[16] - Quote
Scottie MaCallan wrote:they are one metric through which relative skill can be measured
there's also situational awareness, tactical flanking, use of cover, weapon choice, etc.
shotguns, mass drivers, etc. fall under weapon choice, and each require other skills to be effective (tactical flanking & use of cover for shotguns, use of cover & situational awareness for mass drivers) All of these skills are important, and each player is stronger in different areas. You're trying to promote tracking & headshot ability above the others. It doesn't matter how well I can use cover and flank if the second after I open fire (and with 2 or so more shotgun shots left to kill), someone turns around and uses your 2.4x headshot multiplier to obliterate my scout suit just as fast as they can now.
None of those skills go away. If he can turn around and kill you, because you can't headshot and he could, you deserve to lose. |
Scottie MaCallan
Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic
10
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Posted - 2013.05.31 03:08:00 -
[17] - Quote
you're still overemphasizing one metric of skill over all the others. So now if I miss my first headshot I have little chance of recovery. Yet mr. logi-slayer, if he fucks up and forgets how to flank, or use cover, or asses a tactical situation, will have time to turn around and headshot me with his AR. despite the fact that I surprised him with a point blank shotgun, I have little chance of survival if my aim is slightly off, and if even say 20-30% of my spread misses his face |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1782
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 03:10:00 -
[18] - Quote
Scottie MaCallan wrote:you're still overemphasizing one metric of skill over all the others. So now if I miss my first headshot I have little chance of recovery. Yet mr. logi-slayer, if he fucks up and forgets how to flank, or use cover, or asses a tactical situation, will have time to turn around and headshot me with his AR. despite the fact that I surprised him with a point blank shotgun, I have little chance of survival if my aim is slightly off, and if even say 20-30% of my spread misses his face
You only die faster if the opponent has insane skill to turn on a dime and find your head between two trigger pulls. Tell me why someone with that much raw skill (and your apparent lack of it) deserves to lose because you sneak up on him and he is quick enough to react?
In any other case, you both live longer than currently. |
TERMINALANCE
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
75
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 03:11:00 -
[19] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:How to fix Alpha in one step -
Double all HP. Double all headshot values (so 1.2 becomes 2.4).
Game instantly becomes more skill based without affecting TTK in good player vs good player situations.
Edit: The mass driver deserves more splash AREA (not damage) to compensate.
How the hell is a heavy supposed to kill anyone? bastards are gonna have double the amount of time to run away! unless you somehow think the heavy is gonna get more headshots?!
Not how HMG works....
Also shotgun.
and grenades 2
really lots of things would have to be rebalanced.
like the laser rifle not that does not need it already. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1782
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 03:12:00 -
[20] - Quote
TERMINALANCE wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:How to fix Alpha in one step -
Double all HP. Double all headshot values (so 1.2 becomes 2.4).
Game instantly becomes more skill based without affecting TTK in good player vs good player situations.
Edit: The mass driver deserves more splash AREA (not damage) to compensate. How the hell is a heavy supposed to kill anyone? bastards are gonna have double the amount of time to run away!
Headshots? I'm completely flabbergasted this is a difficult concept. |
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TERMINALANCE
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
75
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 03:14:00 -
[21] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:TERMINALANCE wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:How to fix Alpha in one step -
Double all HP. Double all headshot values (so 1.2 becomes 2.4).
Game instantly becomes more skill based without affecting TTK in good player vs good player situations.
Edit: The mass driver deserves more splash AREA (not damage) to compensate. How the hell is a heavy supposed to kill anyone? bastards are gonna have double the amount of time to run away! Headshots? I'm completely flabbergasted this is a difficult concept.
Headshots with a HMG? are you crazy? why dont i just get headshots with my melee as well? |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1782
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 03:16:00 -
[22] - Quote
TERMINALANCE wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:TERMINALANCE wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:How to fix Alpha in one step -
Double all HP. Double all headshot values (so 1.2 becomes 2.4).
Game instantly becomes more skill based without affecting TTK in good player vs good player situations.
Edit: The mass driver deserves more splash AREA (not damage) to compensate. How the hell is a heavy supposed to kill anyone? bastards are gonna have double the amount of time to run away! Headshots? I'm completely flabbergasted this is a difficult concept. Headshots with a HMG? are you crazy? why dont i just get headshots with my melee as well?
Then maybe you aren't that good and don't deserve to win the gunfight? However the HMG has been nerfed to hell already anyway and could be looked at again after such a change. |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
102
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 03:19:00 -
[23] - Quote
TERMINALANCE wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:TERMINALANCE wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:How to fix Alpha in one step -
Double all HP. Double all headshot values (so 1.2 becomes 2.4).
Game instantly becomes more skill based without affecting TTK in good player vs good player situations.
Edit: The mass driver deserves more splash AREA (not damage) to compensate. How the hell is a heavy supposed to kill anyone? bastards are gonna have double the amount of time to run away! Headshots? I'm completely flabbergasted this is a difficult concept. Headshots with a HMG? are you crazy? why dont i just get headshots with my melee as well? Because of the HMG's cone like dispersion, most deaths actually are headshots. |
TERMINALANCE
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
75
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 03:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:TERMINALANCE wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:TERMINALANCE wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:How to fix Alpha in one step -
Double all HP. Double all headshot values (so 1.2 becomes 2.4).
Game instantly becomes more skill based without affecting TTK in good player vs good player situations.
Edit: The mass driver deserves more splash AREA (not damage) to compensate. How the hell is a heavy supposed to kill anyone? bastards are gonna have double the amount of time to run away! Headshots? I'm completely flabbergasted this is a difficult concept. Headshots with a HMG? are you crazy? why dont i just get headshots with my melee as well? Then maybe you aren't that good and don't deserve to win the gunfight? However the HMG has been nerfed to hell already anyway and could be looked at again after such a change.
Well I am good and I know how to use my HMG thanks. And its NOT a precision weapon its a see that guy? yeah shoot his center of mass so you get most rounds on target. you give me the turn speed of a dam assault suit and ill consider it for head shoting right now other suits are too fast (relitive to Heavy tracking speed) to track their head with a HMG for any length of useable time within current HMG optimal ranges. This change would kill the burst HMG in its tracks and make the assault even less useful.
Yeah if you update it after the change that's fine to reflect the health and dmg changes then im cool with it. But you need to update shotguns and grenades and flaylocks and other weapons affected like RE's and ****.
Yes I have no problems with making the dmg to headshots higher and increasing HP of suits and making skill matter more in concept, but it would need tweaking. Or poor heavy and shotgun scout or nova knife scout would be left out in the cold :P also i dont know how that would work for tanks 2 would have to up their dmg maybe same goes for dropships but dropships are a whole nother tread. |
TERMINALANCE
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
75
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 03:30:00 -
[25] - Quote
Cosgar's Alt wrote:TERMINALANCE wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:TERMINALANCE wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:How to fix Alpha in one step -
Double all HP. Double all headshot values (so 1.2 becomes 2.4).
Game instantly becomes more skill based without affecting TTK in good player vs good player situations.
Edit: The mass driver deserves more splash AREA (not damage) to compensate. How the hell is a heavy supposed to kill anyone? bastards are gonna have double the amount of time to run away! Headshots? I'm completely flabbergasted this is a difficult concept. Headshots with a HMG? are you crazy? why dont i just get headshots with my melee as well? Because of the HMG's cone like dispersion, most deaths actually are headshots.
The whole reason of the cone of dispersion is so that you aim for center of mass to have most rounds hit the target, ask anyone who uses it at the higher levels, no one is aiming at the head you will lose 1/2 of your rounds if not more. you put the cone upper chest or midsection so your rounds hit the target, your telling me outside of 15 m anyone is aiming there hmg at the head? you dont have the zoom for that and even in doom mode which sucks now you aim for largest visible part of the enemy so you get hits. |
Scottie MaCallan
Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 03:33:00 -
[26] - Quote
you're ignoring spread and AOE on weapons. AOE and spread are both not optimal for headshots, splash damage does not work that way, and weapons like the HMG or the shotgun do not send bullets directly where you aim. that's how spread works. they're CQC and purposefully not hyper accurate. it's part of their design. Emphasizing headshots like you are gives an innate advantage to weapons like the AR, the SCR, the sniper, and other weapons that deliver their damage through a single bullet at a time, instead of AOE explosions or spread (like the shotgun), or blanket/high RPM (with built in spread) like the HMG. The entire point of these weapons is that they are counters for quickscoping or marksman style AR's, they are designed to be more effective than those guns in certain situations. This is at the expense of increased accuracy, which means they are much more difficult to get headshot with. EIther because they physically cannot, or because they shoot out lots of low damage bullets in a spread out area. you're suggesting that we make this game centered on a single style of FPS play.
I'm not saying headshots shouldn't be rewarded, they are a valid form of skill. but telling everyone they need to HTFU and start playing your headshot game is not a constructive solution. If you want to talk about tweaking existing stats on weapons or hit multipliers in specific areas that you feel are OP or not working in an enjoyable way, that's fine, but don't push a dramatic blanket change like this.
I'd also like to point out a recent dramatic blanket change to the entire game: the range changes in Uprising. There were obviously a lot of unexpected problems that arose out of that, and combined with a couple other problems, several gameplay styles are currently suffering big time. Mass Drivers and lasers, to name a few. So I'd say that, while you might have valid concerns on hit multipliers, TTK, and different weapon's effectiveness, this is not the way to fix those concerns, and too vaguely addresses all options. This solution will have unforseen ramifications, in the same way that removing sharshooter and nerfing damage, combined with the hard range cap, dramatically changed the gun game.
so yea, if you want to debate TTK and balancing issues related to that, sure, let's do it, but let's take it weapon by weapon, and do it by assessing various situations and which weapons should be more effective, combined with all the diferent types of player skill.
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Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1783
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 03:33:00 -
[27] - Quote
Nah leave turret damage where it is and give them a the same buff but more weak points. |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
102
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 03:36:00 -
[28] - Quote
TERMINALANCE wrote: The whole reason of the cone of dispersion is so that you aim for center of mass to have most rounds hit the target, ask anyone who uses it at the higher levels, no one is aiming at the head you will lose 1/2 of your rounds if not more. you put the cone upper chest or midsection so your rounds hit the target, your telling me outside of 15 m anyone is aiming there hmg at the head? you dont have the zoom for that and even in doom mode which sucks now you aim for largest visible part of the enemy so you get hits.
I'm not saying it's intentional, but it occurs more often than almost anyone actually trying to get a headshot. I average ~15-20 kills with my MD and wind up with half of those being headshots when I'm not trying. My point is that the HMG wouldn't really be affected by these changes as you're suggesting. |
TERMINALANCE
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
75
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 03:39:00 -
[29] - Quote
Scottie MaCallan wrote:you're ignoring spread and AOE on weapons. AOE and spread are both not optimal for headshots, splash damage does not work that way, and weapons like the HMG or the shotgun do not send bullets directly where you aim. that's how spread works. they're CQC and purposefully not hyper accurate. it's part of their design. Emphasizing headshots like you are gives an innate advantage to weapons like the AR, the SCR, the sniper, and other weapons that deliver their damage through a single bullet at a time, instead of AOE explosions or spread (like the shotgun), or blanket/high RPM (with built in spread) like the HMG. The entire point of these weapons is that they are counters for quickscoping or marksman style AR's, they are designed to be more effective than those guns in certain situations. This is at the expense of increased accuracy, which means they are much more difficult to get headshot with. EIther because they physically cannot, or because they shoot out lots of low damage bullets in a spread out area. you're suggesting that we make this game centered on a single style of FPS play.
I'm not saying headshots shouldn't be rewarded, they are a valid form of skill. but telling everyone they need to HTFU and start playing your headshot game is not a constructive solution. If you want to talk about tweaking existing stats on weapons or hit multipliers in specific areas that you feel are OP or not working in an enjoyable way, that's fine, but don't push a dramatic blanket change like this.
I'd also like to point out a recent dramatic blanket change to the entire game: the range changes in Uprising. There were obviously a lot of unexpected problems that arose out of that, and combined with a couple other problems, several gameplay styles are currently suffering big time. Mass Drivers and lasers, to name a few. So I'd say that, while you might have valid concerns on hit multipliers, TTK, and different weapon's effectiveness, this is not the way to fix those concerns, and too vaguely addresses all options. This solution will have unforseen ramifications, in the same way that removing sharshooter and nerfing damage, combined with the hard range cap, dramatically changed the gun game.
so yea, if you want to debate TTK and balancing issues related to that, sure, let's do it, but let's take it weapon by weapon, and do it by assessing various situations and which weapons should be more effective, combined with all the diferent types of player skill.
*hugs Scottie
These forums will ruin you, logical man. |
TERMINALANCE
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
75
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 03:46:00 -
[30] - Quote
Cosgar's Alt wrote:TERMINALANCE wrote: The whole reason of the cone of dispersion is so that you aim for center of mass to have most rounds hit the target, ask anyone who uses it at the higher levels, no one is aiming at the head you will lose 1/2 of your rounds if not more. you put the cone upper chest or midsection so your rounds hit the target, your telling me outside of 15 m anyone is aiming there hmg at the head? you dont have the zoom for that and even in doom mode which sucks now you aim for largest visible part of the enemy so you get hits.
I'm not saying it's intentional, but it occurs more often than almost anyone actually trying to get a headshot. I average ~15-20 kills with my MD and wind up with half of those being headshots when I'm not trying. My point is that the HMG wouldn't really be affected by these changes as you're suggesting.
your telling me firing a hmg at distance is different from a shotgun firing at distance relative to both of their ranges? The majority of damage is still coming from the rounds on target not the few hitting the head. if a weapon fires 2000 RPM at a object relies in the death by 1000 cuts, not precision fire. |
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