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Harpyja
DUST University Ivy League
58
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 12:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
Surge Shield Reinforcement has an active duration of 10s and cooldown of 30s. Carapace Armor Hardwner has an active duration of 60s and cooldown of 15s.
Shield gives 30% resist while armor gives 25%.
Analyzing the nature of these two modules suggests that shield should be capable of burst tanking (act of recovering massive amounts of HP quickly in a short time, but with pauses between cycles, or bursts), while armor suggests that it should be slower but steadier and more constant than shields.
In EVE, shields are extremely capable of burst tanking, which is one of its benefits for PvP. The recent addition of ancillary boosters only reinforces this ideology of burst tanking, while armor got a reactive armor hardener which changes resistances over time. Again, the ideology for armor of steady armor tanking is reinforced as well.
But DUST is the exact opposite. Shield boosters are weaker than armor reps (shield boosters in EVE provide more HP/s than armor reps, at the cost of more capacitor use) and it appears like they are slower, but can someone confirm or deny that for me?
I suggest to increase the amount of shield restored for boosters and/or reduce their pulse intervals. I know it says that they have 1s pulse intervals, but in reality it's three seconds. Instead, make shield boosters pulse every second for 5 seconds and increase the cooldown accordingly.
An increase to shield boost amount and making them pulse every second would definitely make shields capable of burst tanking and will bring more balance between armor and shield tanking.
Another suggestion I'd like to add is to double the repair amount on armor reps, but also double the amount if time between each rep, but also adjust cooldown accordingly. |
Harpyja
DUST University Ivy League
62
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 14:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
I want to hear your thoughts. |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
128
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 14:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
In order for this to happen, shields need to have drawbacks. In EVE, shields increase your scan signature and make it easier for other ships to lock onto you faster. Translating this to Dust would probably mean the former while significantly increasing your hit box until your shields are depleted, in which case will revert back to your suit's respective frame size. Armor is at a severe disadvantage compared to shields also. Not only do they add a movement penalty, but they affect turn speed, jump height, and also rumored to affect fall damage. Buffing shields in your suggested format will only widen the gap between shield and armor to the point that armor tanking will be more of a novelty than it was in Chromosome.
There's nothing wrong with your suggestions, mind you, but some significant changes to shield tanking and armor tanking at their cores need to be addressed for such changes to take place. |
Harpyja
DUST University Ivy League
62
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 15:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
Cosgar's Alt wrote:In order for this to happen, shields need to have drawbacks. In EVE, shields increase your scan signature and make it easier for other ships to lock onto you faster. Translating this to Dust would probably mean the former while significantly increasing your hit box until your shields are depleted, in which case will revert back to your suit's respective frame size. Armor is at a severe disadvantage compared to shields also. Not only do they add a movement penalty, but they affect turn speed, jump height, and also rumored to affect fall damage. Buffing shields in your suggested format will only widen the gap between shield and armor to the point that armor tanking will be more of a novelty than it was in Chromosome.
There's nothing wrong with your suggestions, mind you, but some significant changes to shield tanking and armor tanking at their cores need to be addressed for such changes to take place. I don't think you noticed that I was talking about vehicles. Perhaps I should put a clear statement for folks like you |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
128
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 15:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:Cosgar's Alt wrote:In order for this to happen, shields need to have drawbacks. In EVE, shields increase your scan signature and make it easier for other ships to lock onto you faster. Translating this to Dust would probably mean the former while significantly increasing your hit box until your shields are depleted, in which case will revert back to your suit's respective frame size. Armor is at a severe disadvantage compared to shields also. Not only do they add a movement penalty, but they affect turn speed, jump height, and also rumored to affect fall damage. Buffing shields in your suggested format will only widen the gap between shield and armor to the point that armor tanking will be more of a novelty than it was in Chromosome.
There's nothing wrong with your suggestions, mind you, but some significant changes to shield tanking and armor tanking at their cores need to be addressed for such changes to take place. I don't think you noticed that I was talking about vehicles. Perhaps I should put a clear statement I might have simply misread, but it does apply to vehicles as well. |
Harpyja
DUST University Ivy League
62
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 15:34:00 -
[6] - Quote
The way I see it for vehicles is that armor has the upper hand. I believe these few suggestions will bring shield to level ground with armor and now there will be a unique difference between the two, as opposed to simply knowing that armor has better reps and tank all around. |
pegasis prime
The Shadow Cavalry Mercenaries DARKSTAR ARMY
221
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 16:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cosgar's Alt wrote:Harpyja wrote:Cosgar's Alt wrote:In order for this to happen, shields need to have drawbacks. In EVE, shields increase your scan signature and make it easier for other ships to lock onto you faster. Translating this to Dust would probably mean the former while significantly increasing your hit box until your shields are depleted, in which case will revert back to your suit's respective frame size. Armor is at a severe disadvantage compared to shields also. Not only do they add a movement penalty, but they affect turn speed, jump height, and also rumored to affect fall damage. Buffing shields in your suggested format will only widen the gap between shield and armor to the point that armor tanking will be more of a novelty than it was in Chromosome.
There's nothing wrong with your suggestions, mind you, but some significant changes to shield tanking and armor tanking at their cores need to be addressed for such changes to take place. I don't think you noticed that I was talking about vehicles. Perhaps I should put a clear statement I might have simply misread, but it does apply to vehicles as well.
Acctually in this build shield tanks are slower than armour tanks and have a much slower acceleration so we already have quite a few draw backs infact more draw backs than bonuses tbh. Im sticking with the shield tanks hopeing that they really do fix them properly. |
pegasis prime
The Shadow Cavalry Mercenaries DARKSTAR ARMY
221
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 16:28:00 -
[8] - Quote
Cosgar's Alt wrote:Harpyja wrote:Cosgar's Alt wrote:In order for this to happen, shields need to have drawbacks. In EVE, shields increase your scan signature and make it easier for other ships to lock onto you faster. Translating this to Dust would probably mean the former while significantly increasing your hit box until your shields are depleted, in which case will revert back to your suit's respective frame size. Armor is at a severe disadvantage compared to shields also. Not only do they add a movement penalty, but they affect turn speed, jump height, and also rumored to affect fall damage. Buffing shields in your suggested format will only widen the gap between shield and armor to the point that armor tanking will be more of a novelty than it was in Chromosome.
There's nothing wrong with your suggestions, mind you, but some significant changes to shield tanking and armor tanking at their cores need to be addressed for such changes to take place. I don't think you noticed that I was talking about vehicles. Perhaps I should put a clear statement I might have simply misread, but it does apply to vehicles as well.
Acctually in this build shield tanks are slower than armour tanks and have a much slower acceleration so we already have quite a few draw backs infact more draw backs than bonuses tbh. Im sticking with the shield tanks hopeing that they really do fix them properly. |
Kharga Lum
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
64
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 16:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
Passive shield regen is also a big thing for shield tanks which doesn't work effectively in Dust at the moment.
Here
The increased sig radius of shield extenders is minimal and offset by the added mass from armor plates which reduces top speed and turning slightly.
Armor IS more stable and in Eve a common Armor fit will have 1 rep running at all times with a second for "burst" repping if it's needed. Shield tanks only use 1 booster which reps more per cycle and much quicker. This is offset with the massive capacitor usage from shield boosters so it is not sustainable but very effective to deal with massive amounts of damage for a short time.
Passive shield tanking has NO booster at all and relies on resistance with passive shield regen. The passive shield regen system in Dust is not the same as Eve. Details on this in the above link.
The entire vehicle and AV system needs an overhaul. Getting flux'd in a gunnlogi then taken out by a group of TacAR's is a little weird. Yes I sat there and let it happen cause I wanted to see how effective their plan was. It was shockingly effective and went through 1250 armor HP in a matter of seconds...Neat.
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Harpyja
DUST University Ivy League
63
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 17:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
Kharga Lum wrote:Passive shield regen is also a big thing for shield tanks which doesn't work effectively in Dust at the moment. HereThe increased sig radius of shield extenders is minimal and offset by the added mass from armor plates which reduces top speed and turning slightly. Armor IS more stable and in Eve a common Armor fit will have 1 rep running at all times with a second for "burst" repping if it's needed. Shield tanks only use 1 booster which reps more per cycle and much quicker. This is offset with the massive capacitor usage from shield boosters so it is not sustainable but very effective to deal with massive amounts of damage for a short time. Passive shield tanking has NO booster at all and relies on resistance with passive shield regen. The passive shield regen system in Dust is not the same as Eve. Details on this in the above link. The entire vehicle and AV system needs an overhaul. Getting flux'd in a gunnlogi then taken out by a group of TacAR's is a little weird. Yes I sat there and let it happen cause I wanted to see how effective their plan was. It was shockingly effective and went through 1250 armor HP in a matter of seconds...Neat. Yes, recharge rates need to be buffed by making shields recharge in a certain amount of time rather than at a certain rate. I fully support. |
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bacon blaster
BIG BAD W0LVES Eternal Syndicate
39
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 17:48:00 -
[11] - Quote
pegasis prime wrote:Cosgar's Alt wrote:Harpyja wrote:Cosgar's Alt wrote:In order for this to happen, shields need to have drawbacks. In EVE, shields increase your scan signature and make it easier for other ships to lock onto you faster. Translating this to Dust would probably mean the former while significantly increasing your hit box until your shields are depleted, in which case will revert back to your suit's respective frame size. Armor is at a severe disadvantage compared to shields also. Not only do they add a movement penalty, but they affect turn speed, jump height, and also rumored to affect fall damage. Buffing shields in your suggested format will only widen the gap between shield and armor to the point that armor tanking will be more of a novelty than it was in Chromosome.
There's nothing wrong with your suggestions, mind you, but some significant changes to shield tanking and armor tanking at their cores need to be addressed for such changes to take place. I don't think you noticed that I was talking about vehicles. Perhaps I should put a clear statement I might have simply misread, but it does apply to vehicles as well. Acctually in this build shield tanks are slower than armour tanks and have a much slower acceleration so we already have quite a few draw backs infact more draw backs than bonuses tbh. Im sticking with the shield tanks hopeing that they really do fix them properly.
Your first mistake was expecting ccp to properly fix anything. Your second mistake was expecting them to properly fix anything. Your third mistake was expecting ccp to do anything in under a month. |
Harpyja
DUST University Ivy League
75
|
Posted - 2013.06.02 00:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
Bump |
pegasis prime
The Shadow Cavalry Mercenaries DARKSTAR ARMY
225
|
Posted - 2013.06.02 00:46:00 -
[13] - Quote
bacon blaster wrote:pegasis prime wrote:Cosgar's Alt wrote:Harpyja wrote:Cosgar's Alt wrote:In order for this to happen, shields need to have drawbacks. In EVE, shields increase your scan signature and make it easier for other ships to lock onto you faster. Translating this to Dust would probably mean the former while significantly increasing your hit box until your shields are depleted, in which case will revert back to your suit's respective frame size. Armor is at a severe disadvantage compared to shields also. Not only do they add a movement penalty, but they affect turn speed, jump height, and also rumored to affect fall damage. Buffing shields in your suggested format will only widen the gap between shield and armor to the point that armor tanking will be more of a novelty than it was in Chromosome.
There's nothing wrong with your suggestions, mind you, but some significant changes to shield tanking and armor tanking at their cores need to be addressed for such changes to take place. I don't think you noticed that I was talking about vehicles. Perhaps I should put a clear statement I might have simply misread, but it does apply to vehicles as well. Acctually in this build shield tanks are slower than armour tanks and have a much slower acceleration so we already have quite a few draw backs infact more draw backs than bonuses tbh. Im sticking with the shield tanks hopeing that they really do fix them properly. Your first mistake was expecting ccp to properly fix anything. Your second mistake was expecting them to properly fix anything. Your third mistake was expecting ccp to do anything in under a month.
I never said expecting I said hopeing lol .and we all know what springs eternal. |
Eurydice Itzhak
Militaires Sans Jeux
55
|
Posted - 2013.06.02 02:05:00 -
[14] - Quote
Harpyja I fully endorse your ideas and will try to help get this thread noticed,
The only suggestions I can offer up are that we should have stronger passive resistence modules since they get better active. It was this way in chromosome but armor got their passive modules buffed recently.
Shields are in awkward place and really have no instance where they shine over armor tanks.
I don't know that buffing our boosters to be better than their reppers would be an adequate fix as their armor repair rate is INSANE. To have shields regenerate even faster would be a tad bit ridiculous.
Perhaps swapping the HP repaired on armor/boosters but reducing the cooldowns of armor repairers so they could be used more frequently. This would make armor better at dealing with sustained damage and shield tanks better at dealing with burst damage.
Or possibly incorporate the way EVE handles passive tanking into dust. Let our shield tanks repair at a fixed % so buffing our HP buffs our shields per second. |
Val'herik Dorn
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
604
|
Posted - 2013.06.02 02:12:00 -
[15] - Quote
What dust needs for vehicles is a capacitor.
Then we could actually balance out the vehicles like eve.
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BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
100
|
Posted - 2013.06.02 02:23:00 -
[16] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:Note: this is for vehicles
Surge Shield Reinforcement has an active duration of 10s and cooldown of 30s. Carapace Armor Hardener has an active duration of 60s and cooldown of 15s.
Shield gives 30% resist while armor gives 25%.
Analyzing the nature of these two modules suggests that shield should be capable of burst tanking (act of recovering massive amounts of HP quickly in a short time, but with pauses between cycles, or bursts), while armor suggests that it should be slower but steadier and more constant than shields.
In EVE, shields are extremely capable of burst tanking, which is one of its benefits for PvP. The recent addition of ancillary boosters only reinforces this ideology of burst tanking, while armor got a reactive armor hardener which changes resistances over time. Again, the ideology for armor of steady armor tanking is reinforced as well.
But DUST is the exact opposite. Shield boosters are weaker than armor reps (shield boosters in EVE provide more HP/s than armor reps, at the cost of more capacitor use) and it appears like they are slower, but can someone confirm or deny that for me? Note: I've already read multiple times now that armor reps provide about 4000 more hp and that they pulse every second for 15 seconds, so armor reps are clearly better. (And my suspicions are confirmed after seeing armor tanks with low armor and then they are back up to full armor in a matter of seconds)
I suggest to increase the amount of shield restored for boosters and/or reduce their pulse intervals. I know it says that they have 1s pulse intervals, but in reality it's three seconds. Instead, make shield boosters pulse every second for 5 seconds and increase the cooldown accordingly.
Edit: I suggest that in order to be more in line with what shields rep compared to armor, I'd like to suggest a pulse every second for 10 seconds. It's extremely stupid that an armor rep can rep three times as much as a shield booster.
An increase to shield boost amount and making them pulse every second would definitely make shields capable of burst tanking and will bring more balance between armor and shield tanking.
Another suggestion I'd like to add is to double the repair amount on armor reps, but also double the amount of time between each rep, but also adjust cooldown accordingly.
When armor tanking is fixed for suits, then fix shield tanking for tanks :) |
Lorhak Gannarsein
DUST University Ivy League
21
|
Posted - 2013.06.02 05:18:00 -
[17] - Quote
+1
I actually moved from shield to armour tanks last build because the difference was so massive... the only thing a shield tank can do better than an armour tank right now is use missiles, and that's thanks to the Falchion. W
When I see a shield tank in games right now, my only thought is 'neat, 200WP!'. |
Harpyja
DUST University Ivy League
76
|
Posted - 2013.06.02 13:15:00 -
[18] - Quote
Now that I know that armor reps provide three times as much hp as shield boosters do, and that they seem to pulse every second, I am appalled. The balance between shield and armor is even more broken than I thought.
CCP, just give vehicles capacitors already. It will fix so many issues between vehicle balancing. Make shield boosters rep more hp/s than armor but make them require more capacitor. There! Problem fixed!
Cooldowns simply break the balance. |
Eurydice Itzhak
Militaires Sans Jeux
55
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 09:42:00 -
[19] - Quote
I am starting to see ways to balance the different tanks via cooldowns without use of a capacitor.
Passive tanking could be made viable or burst tanking. A shield hardener that did maybe a 60% increase for 10 seconds on a 30 second CD might be nice.
Or buff passive hardeners up to 20% for shields and increase passive shield regen. |
pegasis prime
The Shadow Cavalry Mercenaries DARKSTAR ARMY
238
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 11:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
If the skill related to the shield boosters increased their efficiency I.e. gave an increase In hp provided by each shied booster 5% per levle then burst tanking would be effective without making shield tanks too op. |
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Charlotte O'Dell
Molon Labe. League of Infamy
397
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 13:25:00 -
[21] - Quote
Cosgar's Alt wrote:In order for this to happen, shields need to have drawbacks. In EVE, shields increase your scan signature and make it easier for other ships to lock onto you faster. Translating this to Dust would probably mean the former while significantly increasing your hit box until your shields are depleted, in which case will revert back to your suit's respective frame size. Armor is at a severe disadvantage compared to shields also. Not only do they add a movement penalty, but they affect turn speed, jump height, and also rumored to affect fall damage. Buffing shields in your suggested format will only widen the gap between shield and armor to the point that armor tanking will be more of a novelty than it was in Chromosome.
There's nothing wrong with your suggestions, mind you, but some significant changes to shield tanking and armor tanking at their cores need to be addressed for such changes to take place.
Shields already do have a drawback. They have short pulsing hardeners, slow acceleration, and less overall HP boost. |
Eurydice Itzhak
Militaires Sans Jeux
55
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 20:13:00 -
[22] - Quote
pegasis prime wrote:If the skill related to the shield boosters increased their efficiency I.e. gave an increase In hp provided by each shied booster 5% per levle then burst tanking would be effective without making shield tanks too op.
Even with a 20% boost to shield booster efficiency they would still heal way way way less than armor repairers. |
ladwar
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
579
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 20:50:00 -
[23] - Quote
ok so just so its clear the amount restored listed is per second of the pulse and the interval listed is the length of the pulse. the time between pulse are as such 3second for shield and 1 second for armor. shields pulse last 1 second and then cycle off for 3 second before the next one second pulse while armor pulse is 3 seconds long with a 1 second cycle timer between pulses. so with this the light armor repairer restores a similar amount of HP as a heavy booster for the similar rate(less burst). |
Harpyja
DUST University Ivy League
76
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 21:32:00 -
[24] - Quote
ladwar wrote:ok so just so its clear the amount restored listed is per second of the pulse and the interval listed is the length of the pulse. the time between pulse are as such 3second for shield and 1 second for armor. shields pulse last 1 second and then cycle off for 3 second before the next one second pulse while armor pulse is 3 seconds long with a 1 second cycle timer between pulses. so with this the light armor repairer restores a similar amount of HP as a heavy booster for the similar rate(less burst). I agree with this, but is extremely odd and imbalanced. Shield boosters in EVE pulse much faster than armor reps do, so I think it should be reversed. Make shields pulse for 3 seconds with a 1 second interval and make armor pulse for one second with a three second interval. See if that fixes the imbalance, and then tweak shield boosters more if need be. |
ladwar
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
579
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 23:05:00 -
[25] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:ladwar wrote:ok so just so its clear the amount restored listed is per second of the pulse and the interval listed is the length of the pulse. the time between pulse are as such 3second for shield and 1 second for armor. shields pulse last 1 second and then cycle off for 3 second before the next one second pulse while armor pulse is 3 seconds long with a 1 second cycle timer between pulses. so with this the light armor repairer restores a similar amount of HP as a heavy booster for the similar rate(less burst). I agree with this, but is extremely odd and imbalanced. Shield boosters in EVE pulse much faster than armor reps do, so I think it should be reversed. Make shields pulse for 3 seconds with a 1 second interval and make armor pulse for one second with a three second interval. See if that fixes the imbalance, and then tweak shield boosters more if need be.
yea it is odd when you do bout 550~ dps with rails and armor repairs at 477 per second, that's factoring damage mods and armor hardeners(2x) and skills. and people say that armor has no survivability when rail tanking, right I forgot they remove them all in place for 5 damage mods |
Eurydice Itzhak
Militaires Sans Jeux
55
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 23:46:00 -
[26] - Quote
ladwar wrote:yea it is odd when you do bout 550~ dps with rails and armor repairs at 477 per second, that's factoring damage mods and armor hardeners(2x) and skills. and people say that armor has no survivability when rail tanking, right I forgot they remove they all replace them for 5 damage mods
I've never understood why people think armor tanks cant railgun. They have to forgo some survivability to do it but they still have a **** ton more HP and better sustainability than shields. |
ladwar
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
582
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 07:24:00 -
[27] - Quote
they see the CPU difference and think armor HAVS can't fit it but all the modules for armor use less CPU making it easy for them to fix. |
pegasis prime
The Shadow Cavalry Mercenaries DARKSTAR ARMY
246
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 09:14:00 -
[28] - Quote
My caldari glass cannon eats most madrugers I come across . That being said if I don't get the drop on them and get the first shot then im running for cover or trying to find a way to flank thm . Granted this has been harder than previous builds because they nerfed shield tanks acceleration. |
Harpyja
DUST University Ivy League
76
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 17:25:00 -
[29] - Quote
Bump. |
Eurydice Itzhak
Militaires Sans Jeux
55
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 19:51:00 -
[30] - Quote
pegasis prime wrote:My caldari glass cannon eats most madrugers I come across . That being said if I don't get the drop on them and get the first shot then im running for cover or trying to find a way to flank thm . Granted this has been harder than previous builds because they nerfed shield tanks acceleration.
To be honest it sounds like youve fought some very bad tankers.
Even with the drop he has about 3 seconds to locate you. If he does within this timeframe you'll still die.
You cannot kill an armor tank with a repairer running. It's not possible. He has the entire length of his repairer to find and kill you.
With regards to "running for cover," armor tanks are faster than shield tanks. gg.
I'm glad you've had good luck fighting lower skilled players compared to yourself but that doesn't mean anything as far as balance goes. If you just look at the numbers you can see that shield is in a very very weak spot compared to armor. It has nothing it does better. Not a single thing. |
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