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Big miku
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
232
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Posted - 2013.06.02 00:29:00 -
[31] - Quote
Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Also installations and vehicles are not something that a heavy can take in a face off.
I one shot those weak sauce Blaster and Rail turrets all day and 2 or 3 shots max most average joe Tanks. Forge Gun is more powerful than even the best Rail turret and Heavies with FGs can in fact solo any big slow thing, Infantry support is what kills me when I'm tank hunting. |
Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
23
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Posted - 2013.06.02 00:58:00 -
[32] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:[ Cheers, Cross
Nice reply.
In regards to logis and speed with 1 to 3 extra low slots over scouts, they do really have the potential to really bump up their speed potential to serve as quasi scouts with more durability and equipment slots. While this is not the most optimal way to build a logi, it is surprisingly a much more versatile scout over a scout. Also as you described logis have been slaying due to diminished returns from equipment, but slaying none the less, which is fine as they are in the front lines with the assaults, with ARS helping the team with bullets and buffs. So I think we are kind of in accordance on what the roles logis is filling at the moment.
I am a scout shottie and they are definitely in need of work since the update, aiming issues for them are more noticeable. Also since the update scanning/damp has become neutered due to the fact that it is so low any bonuses to them are negligible, assaults can sneak up on assaults due to the low passive scans now. Essentially scouts got nerfed in Uprising. The rest of what you are mentioning is what we agree on if you went other my other posts, scouts will be expanded upon, just that they arenGÇÖt and I donGÇÖt expect anything in the near future for them as other priorities come first.
CQC for heavies is both parties turning a corner and a heavy guns you down, which is nice but still not a forward unit, same could be said with a scout and a shotgun but no one would call a scout a forward unit. The forge gun still acts like a flanking sniper, which is a great role for diversity, but again heavies still have no real forward potential as of yet unless the range/speed/hp ratio changes.
I generally agree with your assessment on assaults, it also probably contributed to the slayer bros we have been seeing similar to how assaults were using scouts early on in dust for the matrix strafing. |
Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
23
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Posted - 2013.06.02 01:05:00 -
[33] - Quote
Big miku wrote:Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Also installations and vehicles are not something that a heavy can take in a face off.
I one shot those weak sauce Blaster and Rail turrets all day and 2 or 3 shots max most average joe Tanks. Forge Gun is more powerful than even the best Rail turret and Heavies with FGs can in fact solo any big slow thing, Infantry support is what kills me when I'm tank hunting.
1) you are not standing out in the open facing the tank head on as it is looking at you, you are most likely on the side hitting the tank and maneuvering in a way so the tank can't hit you back.
2) You ignored the buff/debuff definition of support
3) Not saying forge gunning isn't a good role, but it is still best defined as flanking, as you are not running in like a vanguard but setting up like a flank. |
Matticus Monk
Ordus Trismegistus
51
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Posted - 2013.06.02 09:18:00 -
[34] - Quote
I definitely concur with those that have said that more WP needs to be awarded for support roles, especially in the case of scouting & using the active scanner, etc.... (let's not forget DS pilots as well....)
Additionally, I do think that given the prevalence of the Assault players CCP will devote more time to those suits. I think we've seen that already with the 4 variants of the Assault suits out and only 2 scouts and 1 heavy.
You know I actually tried using LOGI suits to scout prior to the Uprising skill respec. I also used them for true LOGI support but every time I kept coming back to the scout suit for scouting or making the initial rush for objectives.
It's true that you can make a logi as fast or faster than a scout but you need to invest typically 2 kin/cats to make this happen. Additionally, since their stamina is horrible, you need to add on another green catalyzer. Then, once you've got the speed up and can keep up with base scouts (you've now used 3 low slots), you may want to put on a profile dampener and profile analyzer to get your scan precision and profile down. There goes another High slot and low slot.
Then, you need to overcome the general mobility (I'm still jumping over gaps, railings etc. easier in my scout suit and getting to my objective faster) which can't be done.
Couple that with the bigger hitbox and I always ended up dying more as a logi/scout - I was either not effective running away after being spotted, or I was snuck up on a lot more since my passive scan precision was worse still worse than a scout if I didn't fit the appropriate modules.... and I was blowing major ISK on suits since I needed at least an ADV suit to get my 3 low slots for all my speed/stamina mods, proto if I wanted my scan profile decrease.
So, I though "Why"....? And I went back to my dragonfly suit, threw on an armor repper, shield extender and a kin/cat and I out run the **** out of Logis all day long.
Yes, my HP is horrible, and I can only carry one EQ slot. But I get my sidearm and a death costs me 2k, not 50+ as a somewhat effective logi/scout.
Maybe it's just my playstyle but for me it was: LOGI-Scout = fail.
EDIT: I could see LOGI-Scout excelling at being a objective keeper. Basically sticking close to an objective w/ an active scanner and remote/mines & Nanohive and keeping it locked down. |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
608
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Posted - 2013.06.02 09:47:00 -
[35] - Quote
Ever shrinking population? It's grown by at least 3,000 on average since release. |
Novawolf McDustingham The514th
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
141
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Posted - 2013.06.02 10:11:00 -
[36] - Quote
A conscious effort was made to make this game as grey and lifeless as possible in the name of "player choice" because the gaming industry is run by a committee of marketing tards with the collective creativity of cold oatmeal and uninspired salesmen that only know how to ctrl+v existing business models.
And that's why the Logi is OP... |
SuperKing BigNuts
Contract Hunters
90
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Posted - 2013.06.02 11:31:00 -
[37] - Quote
Novawolf McDustingham The514th wrote:A conscious effort was made to make this game as grey and lifeless as possible in the name of "player choice" because the gaming industry is run by a committee of marketing tards with the collective creativity of cold oatmeal and uninspired salesmen that only know how to ctrl+v existing business models.
And that's why the Logi is OP...
here i was expecting the punch line to be about scout and heavy not being viable options over the 'jack of all trades' assault or the slightly impaired(no sidearm OH NOES!) cousin, logistics.
i know a couple of assaults who had intended to migrate to logistics with their respecs because they dont run a sidearm anyways in preference of a improved mid and lowslot fittings. they realize they wont need all 3 of the equip slots, but only planned to be able to fit both nano and a needle, or nano and an explosive. they end up making less compromise being able to fit a second or third piece of equipment than losing the sidearm they didnt use or even fit anyways. the gain of passive armor rep is handy, since its effectively +1 lowslot at proto for zero PG/CPU. they get all the benefits of their previous play style(light weapon + similar slot loadouts) combined with the bonus of extra equipment(dont have to pick and choose with what support equip they bring), for the trade off of MINOR stat reductions(i think caldaris shield loss is covered by the bonus highslot it gets and we gotta wait on heavy suits or drop in free jeeps if were in a hurry). all this because they wanted better equipment versatility since NO OTHER SUIT has more than a single equip slot... |
dustwaffle
Ill Omens EoN.
32
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Posted - 2013.06.02 13:00:00 -
[38] - Quote
Logi -> PC -> Templars event -> other stuff -> Logi
And so the great circle of life whinging is complete |
RedBleach LeSanglant
PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies
293
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Posted - 2013.06.03 17:12:00 -
[39] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:First thoughts are that you must not play in a Logi suit much. "Speed" and "Logi" hardly ever belong in the same sentence unless juxtaposed with something like "lack of". Also Logi are not in the "forward slayer" category. I've yet to see a "slayer" logi build that doesn't depend on the AR (and almost exclusively the TAR in a Cal Logi suit at that). I'm sure there are players who can make that work but when talking suit values that's not part of the equation. As far as WP earnings from support actions are concerned those are down across the boards and even dedicated support Logi are having to resort more 'slayer' activities just to remain in the same ballpark as the last build. The list is too long to repeat here but the TL;DR is earnings potential from all equipment types is lower now than in Chrome (with the arguable exception of the RE and noting that the Scanner is both new and has no WP earnings yet).
Heavies can be front line as easily as assault within the right context. Granted these contexts are more limited than the assault however a well specc'ed heavy can hold his own in CQC against more than one assault (the current use of TAR not withstanding but that issue isn't a suit based thing). All of which presumes HMG heavy as opposed to the use of other weapons, role will alter based on weapon employed. Leaving all the light weapon possibilities aside (I've still seen heavy snipers, heavy shotgunners and heavy AR guys doing work in various matches) the heavy possesses access to the Forge which in addition to it's AV abilities (such as 1-2 shotting dropships and LAVs, as well as eating up non-proto HAVs) is currently a more effective area denial weapon than the MD. The heavy suit will likely become more popular with the introduction of the "commando" heavy which packs 2 light weapon slots and not heavy slot.
Scouts are limited to flaking and scouting it's true but an active scanner, a set of nova knives or a well placed shotgun blast is still quite effective. And the main assets of the scout are speed and scanning/damp. So various forms of flaking are really their intended niche (sniper scouts notwithstanding). There's also the coming cloak which if things hold to EVE style the scouts will get a bonus to fitting giving them more options (and possibly explaining some of the delay in deploying the other racial scout suits). The scouts are also going to be highly effective at both deploying and countering eWar, another aspect of the mechanics which is confirmed as coming but still not integrated into the game.
Assaults are the ever popular "go to" suit, they are the AR of the dropsuit line... however in Uprising they took a bit of a hit as their racial suit buffs weren't well received in general and (the on board rep of the minny aside) they didn't really offer any non-shield tanking options making them take one on the chin to some extent with the introduction of the new weapons. To some extent the familiarity of the assault suit, combined with it's name and "jack of all trades" base suit values will likely keep it in prominence. And while I fully support the development and viability of other diverse roles it's important to bear in mind that part of this popularity is based on what the players feel at home with due to prior FPS time and is not actually a comment on balance.
Cheers, Cross
Boom. A well constructed rebuttal as always. |
Jenova's Witness
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
135
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Posted - 2013.06.03 17:20:00 -
[40] - Quote
I have a little over 3 million SP invested into my heavy suit with an HMG and all I can do is camp. A suit's versatility is measured by its pre-rolled base stats and slot allocation. A logi has the most undefined yet versatile role out of all the suit classes because they trade their base stats for a superior slot allocation and the lack of a sidearm. You want to be versatile? Give up your base stats and that sidearm slot. Want to know why a heavy can't run 11m/s? It's a heavy. |
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