DUST Search - The 3 Real classes of Dust.... and its effect on suit frame popularity

SuperKing BigNuts wrote:

Oswald Rehnquist wrote:

SuperKing BigNuts wrote:

Oswald Rehnquist wrote:

Essentially, more so than nerfing Assaults and Logis, Heavies And Scouts just need an extra role and you'd see much better balance.

[trimmed quote]

Scouts need a second equipment slot and more scout equipment and then scouts would honestly be fine. They would function like negative logis by hindering the enemy by reveals, disruption, and sneak attacks compared to logis ammo, heals, and assaulting.

Heavies would benefit from active shield or armor hardeners that give a 50% boost to starting armor or shields, meaning that module stacking suits wouldn't be able to steel the thunder from heavies considering it would assist base stats. This could serve as the "close that gap" or the "Oh ****" button for heavies who do need it. It would also allow snipers and surprise attackers their fair share against the heavy since they have to activate this ability.

if you gave scouts a second equipment slot, you would completely obsolete the amarr logi below proto. and even at proto, itd still be a tossup, because after what? 2.7m sp? you arent used to or proficient with that side arm, and probably not going to be able to fit a decent upgrade of a fit with that 3rd equip ontop of side arm...

the mention of 'EHP' made me chuckle on the first page... EHP on dropsuits... where theres no damage reduction aside from weapon strength/weaknesses... the numbers you were giving are not EHP but raw hp, unless they were mathed against a specific weapons effectiveness... though they do need to give heavies some sort of tank-ability... be it buffs to hp per level, or modules that are high req for heavies, to give them an edge above buffer tanked assault/logi

Far from it, Scouts suffer heavily from low cpu/pg than any other suit, with two equipment slots, they would have to chose between a sidearm and two equipment items or one equipment and one light weapon. Couple this with their low hp, they certainly can't "run with the pack" risking getting caught in the open to utilize logistical equipment meaning other equipment items (cloak, scanning, EWAR) would be the most effective yields for scout suits, again serving as a minor negative logis.

i know a few folks who speced logi just for the second equip slot to run remote explosives+nanos, they might have gone scout, but they wanted the buffer of cald logi, having a second option for bonus equip slots would diversify things, but people have already dedicated to negative-logi builds.

but having said this, i thought the entire point of the amarr logistics was to be 'combat support' rather than actual logistics(healing). but amarr logi only really flush out at proto level when they get that side arm(AV becomes considerably less painful with a side arm)

i do feel the other roles could use some TLC and be brought up to be more on par with the mainstream assault/logi suits...


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Oswald Rehnquist Abandoned Privilege 19	Posted - 2013.05.30 01:44:00 - [1] - Quote Forward Slayer -Logistics -Assault Support -Logistics Flankers -Logistics -Assault -Scout -Heavy Currently, non combat roles are limited to logis due to their equipment slots being high enough to support real sp attainment during a match. Also combined this with the fact that most of the equipment is logistics oriented. Scouts (sidewinders) and heavies (point defense) are limited to flanking roles due to suit constraints, heavies don't have the range/speed/hp combo to push and scouts lack the slots and survivability to separate themselves from speed tanking logis and assaults. I also think this explains the dynamics of suit popularity as well. Anyways, what are your thoughts on this and the balance between suit popularity? Do you think an introduction of alternative roles would assist the less popular suits and if so what should they be? A personal fear of mine but do you think that the fact that since scouts and heavies are more marginalized and are a minority that they could potentially never really be develop in the game due to time and effort spent on a ever shrinking population? I also believe this is why the devs introduced all the assault and logistic suits first and are more interested in introducing all the assault rifles before anything else. Anyways, all thoughts are appreciated and thank you for your time.
Oswald Rehnquist Abandoned Privilege 19	Posted - 2013.05.30 01:54:00 - [2] - Quote Cosgar's Alt wrote: Scouts fit into non-combat when they run distraction or take point in a formation. I kind of define roles based on progression in the game, if what you are doing does not earn you sp, your character does not advance in the game.
Oswald Rehnquist Abandoned Privilege 19	Posted - 2013.05.30 02:06:00 - [3] - Quote Cosgar's Alt wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Cosgar's Alt wrote: Scouts fit into non-combat when they run distraction or take point in a formation. I kind of define roles based on progression in the game, if what you are doing does not earn you sp, your character does not advance in the game. Ever seen a scout using code breakers? I could generate 1000+ WP on my own, just running distraction in a skirmish. I am a dedicated scout, so I do know my ins and outs, hence my bias with focusing on the "less popular suits". In skirmish that is the general function I serve, but that is still better served by logistics which one gets a hacking bonus and more slots to increase speed and hp, combined with more equipment like active scanners and drop uplinks which help with positioning around enemy forces and getting closer to objectives after death.
Oswald Rehnquist Abandoned Privilege 19	Posted - 2013.05.30 02:25:00 - [4] - Quote Big miku wrote: Jin Robot wrote: Only having a sidearm would focus logistics more on... logistics. Logis can out assault assaults. Then'd you be butthurt when players like "All Dinner Can" psychically assaults your nether regions with a Proto SMG. I understand that there is some sort of assault v logi debate going on, but I am more interested the heavy/scout v assault/logi aspect of this.
Oswald Rehnquist Abandoned Privilege 19	Posted - 2013.05.30 02:31:00 - [5] - Quote Big miku wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Logistics suits do everything, and for what...no side arm? Every suit can do every roll when you get down to it. I do believe the Assault Suits don't have enticing enough skills (2% reload speed per level), but the logi suits with the exception of the Cali Logi are fine as they are. There would be zero issue if people specced into one level of Grenadier and started using Flux nades more. That's kind of like when teachers tell their class that they are all geniuses, it may be inspiring but it is far from the truth. While as a scout I may be able to bum rush an opponent every blue moon with the advantage of shock on awe (did that scout really forward me?), but as a dominate strategy it would yield negative returns. While roles is dust are not defined by complete advantages they are in fact defined by comparative advantage in the long term.
Oswald Rehnquist Abandoned Privilege 19	Posted - 2013.05.30 02:39:00 - [6] - Quote Cosgar's Alt wrote: Are we seriously going to have this nerf logi debate again? Didn't we just go through this **** two weeks ago? Did you forget my goddamned campaign to buff the other suits?! Am I wasting my time?! ARGGGHH!!!!! 1) That was your assault logi debate, which I group the two suits together because they are both thriving groups and there are more than 2 suits in the game which have gotten less attention, I honestly couldn't care less which of the two are the best slayers. I am not looking to nerf logis. 2) Your comment directed at me was a subtle defense of the current viability and diversity of scouts with their own unique role 3) You ignored my counter points on the logi advantage over scouts on skirmish hacking 4) If you have suggestions for scouts or heavies, I'd love to hear them, which was kind of the point of the thread. I'm even hoping for unique and rewarding non combat roles for scouts more so than making scouts deadly. I'm not an expert at what the heavies need but more sponge abilities would serve it well I think.
Oswald Rehnquist Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance 21	Posted - 2013.06.01 23:23:00 - [7] - Quote Essentially, more so than nerfing Assaults and Logis, Heavies And Scouts just need an extra role and you'd see much better balance. Forward Slayer -Logistics -Assault -Heavy Support -Logistics -Scout Flankers -Logistics -Assault -Scout -Heavy Scouts need a second equipment slot and more scout equipment and then scouts would honestly be fine. They would function like negative logis by hindering the enemy by reveals, disruption, and sneak attacks compared to logis ammo, heals, and assaulting. Heavies would benefit from active shield or armor hardeners that give a 50% boost to starting armor or shields, meaning that module stacking suits wouldn't be able to steel the thunder from heavies considering it would assist base stats. This could serve as the "close that gap" or the "Oh ****" button for heavies who do need it. It would also allow snipers and surprise attackers their fair share against the heavy since they have to activate this ability.
Oswald Rehnquist Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance 21	Posted - 2013.06.01 23:53:00 - [8] - Quote SuperKing BigNuts wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Essentially, more so than nerfing Assaults and Logis, Heavies And Scouts just need an extra role and you'd see much better balance. [trimmed quote] Scouts need a second equipment slot and more scout equipment and then scouts would honestly be fine. They would function like negative logis by hindering the enemy by reveals, disruption, and sneak attacks compared to logis ammo, heals, and assaulting. Heavies would benefit from active shield or armor hardeners that give a 50% boost to starting armor or shields, meaning that module stacking suits wouldn't be able to steel the thunder from heavies considering it would assist base stats. This could serve as the "close that gap" or the "Oh ****" button for heavies who do need it. It would also allow snipers and surprise attackers their fair share against the heavy since they have to activate this ability. if you gave scouts a second equipment slot, you would completely obsolete the amarr logi below proto. and even at proto, itd still be a tossup, because after what? 2.7m sp? you arent used to or proficient with that side arm, and probably not going to be able to fit a decent upgrade of a fit with that 3rd equip ontop of side arm... the mention of 'EHP' made me chuckle on the first page... EHP on dropsuits... where theres no damage reduction aside from weapon strength/weaknesses... the numbers you were giving are not EHP but raw hp, unless they were mathed against a specific weapons effectiveness... though they do need to give heavies some sort of tank-ability... be it buffs to hp per level, or modules that are high req for heavies, to give them an edge above buffer tanked assault/logi Far from it, Scouts suffer heavily from low cpu/pg than any other suit, with two equipment slots, they would have to chose between a sidearm and two equipment items or one equipment and one light weapon. Couple this with their low hp, they certainly can't "run with the pack" risking getting caught in the open to utilize logistical equipment meaning other equipment items (cloak, scanning, EWAR) would be the most effective yields for scout suits, again serving as a minor negative logis.
Oswald Rehnquist Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance 21	Posted - 2013.06.02 00:05:00 - [9] - Quote DS 10 wrote: You should add Heavy Forge Gun to support. I don't know how many installations/vehicles I've taken out since I made the switch. I probably should have defined support more, I go buffs or debuffs Also installations and vehicles are not something that a heavy can take in a face off, most forge gunners pop out in the open and fire a shot and then go to cover again (or they go up on a hill and fire away some distance), which is flanking as it is not a direct push or charge and it is not a buff or debuff, so if I were to attempt to defend my classification, I would still place forge gunner as a flanking unit.
Oswald Rehnquist Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance 23	Posted - 2013.06.02 00:13:00 - [10] - Quote SuperKing BigNuts wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: SuperKing BigNuts wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Essentially, more so than nerfing Assaults and Logis, Heavies And Scouts just need an extra role and you'd see much better balance. [trimmed quote] Scouts need a second equipment slot and more scout equipment and then scouts would honestly be fine. They would function like negative logis by hindering the enemy by reveals, disruption, and sneak attacks compared to logis ammo, heals, and assaulting. Heavies would benefit from active shield or armor hardeners that give a 50% boost to starting armor or shields, meaning that module stacking suits wouldn't be able to steel the thunder from heavies considering it would assist base stats. This could serve as the "close that gap" or the "Oh ****" button for heavies who do need it. It would also allow snipers and surprise attackers their fair share against the heavy since they have to activate this ability. if you gave scouts a second equipment slot, you would completely obsolete the amarr logi below proto. and even at proto, itd still be a tossup, because after what? 2.7m sp? you arent used to or proficient with that side arm, and probably not going to be able to fit a decent upgrade of a fit with that 3rd equip ontop of side arm... the mention of 'EHP' made me chuckle on the first page... EHP on dropsuits... where theres no damage reduction aside from weapon strength/weaknesses... the numbers you were giving are not EHP but raw hp, unless they were mathed against a specific weapons effectiveness... though they do need to give heavies some sort of tank-ability... be it buffs to hp per level, or modules that are high req for heavies, to give them an edge above buffer tanked assault/logi Far from it, Scouts suffer heavily from low cpu/pg than any other suit, with two equipment slots, they would have to chose between a sidearm and two equipment items or one equipment and one light weapon. Couple this with their low hp, they certainly can't "run with the pack" risking getting caught in the open to utilize logistical equipment meaning other equipment items (cloak, scanning, EWAR) would be the most effective yields for scout suits, again serving as a minor negative logis. i know a few folks who speced logi just for the second equip slot to run remote explosives+nanos, they might have gone scout, but they wanted the buffer of cald logi, having a second option for bonus equip slots would diversify things, but people have already dedicated to negative-logi builds. but having said this, i thought the entire point of the amarr logistics was to be 'combat support' rather than actual logistics(healing). but amarr logi only really flush out at proto level when they get that side arm(AV becomes considerably less painful with a side arm) i do feel the other roles could use some TLC and be brought up to be more on par with the mainstream assault/logi suits... I actually agree with you on this one, Amarr logis really should get that sidearm at lower levels, but the Amarr is the Logi/Assault hybrid as the Scout Minmatar is the Scout/Assault hybrid. But general Logis function like kick ass medics (which is good), to keep the party up and running you need to be up on the front lines, which means you still need to kick ass. Scouts on the other hand are loners or small groups, 3 bullets their dead meaning you can't have people next to you giving your position away. Scouts can back stab (shoot?) people at the moment, what I suggest is a little break into more equipment roles that would serve this flanking gameplay as compared to the logis wolf packs.

Oswald Rehnquist Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance 23	Posted - 2013.06.02 00:58:00 - [11] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: [ Cheers, Cross Nice reply. In regards to logis and speed with 1 to 3 extra low slots over scouts, they do really have the potential to really bump up their speed potential to serve as quasi scouts with more durability and equipment slots. While this is not the most optimal way to build a logi, it is surprisingly a much more versatile scout over a scout. Also as you described logis have been slaying due to diminished returns from equipment, but slaying none the less, which is fine as they are in the front lines with the assaults, with ARS helping the team with bullets and buffs. So I think we are kind of in accordance on what the roles logis is filling at the moment. I am a scout shottie and they are definitely in need of work since the update, aiming issues for them are more noticeable. Also since the update scanning/damp has become neutered due to the fact that it is so low any bonuses to them are negligible, assaults can sneak up on assaults due to the low passive scans now. Essentially scouts got nerfed in Uprising. The rest of what you are mentioning is what we agree on if you went other my other posts, scouts will be expanded upon, just that they arenGÇÖt and I donGÇÖt expect anything in the near future for them as other priorities come first. CQC for heavies is both parties turning a corner and a heavy guns you down, which is nice but still not a forward unit, same could be said with a scout and a shotgun but no one would call a scout a forward unit. The forge gun still acts like a flanking sniper, which is a great role for diversity, but again heavies still have no real forward potential as of yet unless the range/speed/hp ratio changes. I generally agree with your assessment on assaults, it also probably contributed to the slayer bros we have been seeing similar to how assaults were using scouts early on in dust for the matrix strafing.
Oswald Rehnquist Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance 23	Posted - 2013.06.02 01:05:00 - [12] - Quote Big miku wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Also installations and vehicles are not something that a heavy can take in a face off. I one shot those weak sauce Blaster and Rail turrets all day and 2 or 3 shots max most average joe Tanks. Forge Gun is more powerful than even the best Rail turret and Heavies with FGs can in fact solo any big slow thing, Infantry support is what kills me when I'm tank hunting. 1) you are not standing out in the open facing the tank head on as it is looking at you, you are most likely on the side hitting the tank and maneuvering in a way so the tank can't hit you back. 2) You ignored the buff/debuff definition of support 3) Not saying forge gunning isn't a good role, but it is still best defined as flanking, as you are not running in like a vanguard but setting up like a flank.