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Matakage
WildCard Ninja Clan
170
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 00:52:00 -
[1] - Quote
In the Feedback/Requests thread I just wrote the equivalent of a chemistry lab report (which I've written many of, by the way) regarding the role of the Tactical AR in Dust 514 and 3 changes that could be made to help it fulfill that role again, and not replace the roles of other guns. As a teaser, here are the 3 points:
1. Reduced rate of fire so it cannot exceed the reasonable human extent of button-pressing speed. (ROF ~400) 2. Increased hip-fire bullet-spread so that an AR is by far a better option beyond 10-15 meters. 3. Reduced clip size to 20 to discourage rapid hip-firing and stay within 2 kills per clip size.
If you've got any strong opinions about those 3 changes, hear the whole reasoning behind it in the actual thread. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=81570&find=unread
Now I'm starving and I have to eat something! I hope I can generate a good and constructive discussion on the subject. I want to see everything work out well and be as balanced as possible in Dust 514. |
TAR is OP
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.05.25 00:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
IKR??? |
ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
168
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Posted - 2013.05.25 01:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
Your input is appreciated. Thank you.
Now if only CCP would say this and mean it. |
Cass Barr
Red Star. EoN.
56
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 01:11:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'm not sure I'd say the AR should be better in CQC by far. It should definitely be clearly better, but the TAR is still an AR, not a sniper, and it should be viable at shorter ranges, though at a disadvantage. My concern is that CCP will do something like reducing the mag to 20 like you suggest, AND nerf the hipfire spread by like 50% or something ridiculous. |
Full Metal Kitten
Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation
520
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 02:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
Your thoughts are reasonable. +1 You posted in Feedback first. +1 Your feedback post is well organized. +1 Neither posts are soaking wet with tears. +1
I am now recommending CCP add the Matakage Tactical AR officer variant. Instead of improved weapon stats, mercs that fit this rifle get a 10% passive bonus to proper forum posting. GG
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RINON114
B.S.A.A. General Tso's Alliance
171
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Posted - 2013.05.25 04:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
Full Metal Kitten wrote:Your thoughts are reasonable. +1 You posted in Feedback first. +1 Your feedback post is well organized. +1 Neither posts are soaking wet with tears. +1
I am now recommending CCP add the Matakage Tactical AR officer variant. Instead of improved weapon stats, mercs that fit this rifle get a 10% passive bonus to proper forum posting. GG
I second this motion |
Matakage
WildCard Ninja Clan
178
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 04:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
Full Metal Kitten wrote:Your thoughts are reasonable. +1 You posted in Feedback first. +1 Your feedback post is well organized. +1 Neither posts are soaking wet with tears. +1
I am now recommending CCP add the Matakage Tactical AR officer variant. Instead of improved weapon stats, mercs that fit this rifle get a 10% passive bonus to proper forum posting. GG
I really appreciate the support, but you're gonna have to take a point off...
I accidentally posted it in Technical Support/Bugs.
I asked them to move it, but it hasn't happened yet. Oh well, as long as they see it I'll be happy! |
Sontie
Ill Omens EoN.
409
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 05:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
What I would like would be;
Base Damage @ Proto : 100ish ROF ~180 Clip size 10-15 Increase the Kick
same spread. |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
373
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 09:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
Cass Barr wrote:I'm not sure I'd say the AR should be better in CQC by far. It should definitely be clearly better, but the TAR is still an AR, not a sniper, and it should be viable at shorter ranges, though at a disadvantage. My concern is that CCP will do something like reducing the mag to 20 like you suggest, AND nerf the hipfire spread by like 50% or something ridiculous.
Yet this is exactly what needs to happen...
Why does the Breach do better at CQC? Tighter hip fire! What should make the Tactical suck at CQC? Looser hip fire!
w00t!
The Tac is an assault rifle but that doesn't change that it shouldnt be good at CQC, anymore than a sniper rifle should be used at closer ranges just because it's a rifle. |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
373
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Posted - 2013.05.25 09:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sontie wrote:What I would like would be;
Base Damage @ Proto : 100ish ROF ~180 Clip size 10-15 Increase the Kick
same spread.
That's called a close-range sniper rifle. Nope. |
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Succendo
Goonfeet
25
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Posted - 2013.05.25 09:04:00 -
[11] - Quote
You presume CCP cares about balance. |
Aeon Amadi
Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation
1374
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 09:05:00 -
[12] - Quote
Eh, +1 if only because you didn't include a Damage Nerf, which would inevitably make it useless again. |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
373
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 09:19:00 -
[13] - Quote
Here's what I've been putting together. Been trying to build some consensus on it.
GLU-5 Tactical Assault Rifle Damage: 61 HP Rate of Fire: 450 RPM (compare with full auto Breach AR) down from 789.5 Accuracy Rating: 42.9 (similar hip fire spread to the Burst Scrambler Pistol) down from 56.1 Clip Size: 30 (increased) up from 24 Max Ammo: 180 (reduction) down from 300
Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle Damage: 64.2 HP Rate of Fire: 450 RPM Accuracy Rating: 43.5 (exactly .6 higher than the GLU-5, as intended) down from 56.7 Clip Size: 30 Max Ammo: 180
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Aeon Amadi
Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation
1374
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 09:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Here's what I've been putting together. Been trying to build some consensus on it.
GLU-5 Tactical Assault Rifle Damage: 61 HP Rate of Fire: 450 RPM (compare with full auto Breach AR) down from 789.5 Accuracy Rating: 42.9 (similar hip fire spread to the Burst Scrambler Pistol) down from 56.1 Clip Size: 30 (increased) up from 24 Max Ammo: 180 (reduction) down from 300
Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle Damage: 64.2 HP Rate of Fire: 450 RPM Accuracy Rating: 43.5 (exactly .6 higher than the GLU-5, as intended) down from 56.7 Clip Size: 30 Max Ammo: 180
Lmfao, so nerf the hell out of everything and make it useless again. Peachy. While we're at it, let's give LAVs another buff. Say, 120% that way Starter LAVs can have 4500 EHP. |
Panther Alpha
WarRavens
285
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 09:28:00 -
[15] - Quote
Well.. I hope you ready to spend a full day writing about the Scramble Rifle... because that is coming next. |
Sir Petersen
Valhalla Nord
133
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 09:30:00 -
[16] - Quote
The TAC Duvolle costs close to 80k a piece. A weapon that costs that much should obviously work. Before the TAC AR was redone in the game it was pretty much useless and very few were using it. But for some strange reason there are some people out there who wanna make it useless again?
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Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
373
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Posted - 2013.05.25 09:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Jathniel wrote:Here's what I've been putting together. Been trying to build some consensus on it.
GLU-5 Tactical Assault Rifle Damage: 61 HP Rate of Fire: 450 RPM (compare with full auto Breach AR) down from 789.5 Accuracy Rating: 42.9 (similar hip fire spread to the Burst Scrambler Pistol) down from 56.1 Clip Size: 30 (increased) up from 24 Max Ammo: 180 (reduction) down from 300
Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle Damage: 64.2 HP Rate of Fire: 450 RPM Accuracy Rating: 43.5 (exactly .6 higher than the GLU-5, as intended) down from 56.7 Clip Size: 30 Max Ammo: 180
Lmfao, so nerf the hell out of everything and make it useless again. Peachy. While we're at it, let's give LAVs another buff. Say, 120% that way Starter LAVs can have 4500 EHP.
Sarcasm won't help fix anything. These are numbers generated from a number of players actually. Please review the thread.
This is actually a nerf buffer. And keeps it inline with the other ARs.
Well, I ask you. Would you use the Breach over the Tactical, for cqc right now? Would you use the full-auto over the Tactical right now? Would you use the Burst over the Tactical right now?
I have a preference for the Tactical as well. But we must be reasonable. It's the king infantry weapon. Especially a duvolle with a couple damage mods. I've been using the tactical ever since we came to Uprising... the other ARs are a novelty by comparision... actually every other weapon is a novelty by comparison. Even in Chromosome, the tactical never really needed a damage boost. Not sure why it got one.
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Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
373
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 09:35:00 -
[18] - Quote
Panther Alpha wrote:Well.. I hope you ready to spend a full day writing about the Scramble Rifle... because that is coming next.
Actually the overheat function on the scrambler rifle is what mitigates. A person cannot remain in a state of non-stop offense for his entire clip using one.
The Tactical AR has no such limitations, and it's ammo is nearly equally effective vs. armor and shields.
I use one on a regular basis. The weapon is just slightly overpowered right now. |
Sir Petersen
Valhalla Nord
133
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 09:39:00 -
[19] - Quote
Jathniel wrote: Sarcasm won't help fix anything.
There is nothing that needs to be fixed.
Again..
Gearing up in a decent suit with the TAC Duvolle is 100k plus. Getting killed 10 times with this gun is gonna cost me over a million isk.
The TAC AR especially the TAC Duvolle is just fine the way it is.
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Aeon Amadi
Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation
1375
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 09:39:00 -
[20] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Jathniel wrote:Here's what I've been putting together. Been trying to build some consensus on it.
GLU-5 Tactical Assault Rifle Damage: 61 HP Rate of Fire: 450 RPM (compare with full auto Breach AR) down from 789.5 Accuracy Rating: 42.9 (similar hip fire spread to the Burst Scrambler Pistol) down from 56.1 Clip Size: 30 (increased) up from 24 Max Ammo: 180 (reduction) down from 300
Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle Damage: 64.2 HP Rate of Fire: 450 RPM Accuracy Rating: 43.5 (exactly .6 higher than the GLU-5, as intended) down from 56.7 Clip Size: 30 Max Ammo: 180
Lmfao, so nerf the hell out of everything and make it useless again. Peachy. While we're at it, let's give LAVs another buff. Say, 120% that way Starter LAVs can have 4500 EHP. Sarcasm won't help fix anything. These are numbers generated from a number of players actually. Please review the thread. This is actually a nerf buffer. And keeps it inline with the other ARs. Well, I ask you. Would you use the Breach over the Tactical, for cqc right now? Would you use the full-auto over the Tactical right now? Would you use the Burst over the Tactical right now? I have a preference for the Tactical as well. But we must be reasonable. It's the king infantry weapon. Especially a duvolle with a couple damage mods. I've been using the tactical ever since we came to Uprising... the other ARs are a novelty by comparision... actually every other weapon is a novelty by comparison. Even in Chromosome, the tactical never really needed a damage boost. Not sure why it got one.
I do have a preference for the full-auto over the Tactical, but it's circumstantial. It's my weapon of choice for the more tense CQC fights. I use the Tactical for mid-range/long-range combat and I have been using it ever since the beginning because I knew it would be hard for everyone who had Sharpshooter to adapt to the changes.
The weapon was -fine- before the 10% increase to weapon damage patch because everyone was complaining the firefights lasted too long, now they're saying that the Tactical is overpowered because it makes the firefights too short. Honestly, this community doesn't know what it wants except that it wants to be the winner of the firefight.
Now, if you want to make the argument that it's hip-fire is too high, I'll accept that. Reduce the accuracy there and it would force the utilization of it's new scope but it -does not- need a reduction to clip-size or an increase to recoil as these have BEEN SHOWN IN THE PAST to break the weapon entirely. It NEEDS the recoil it has to make it effective, it NEEDS the clip size so that it can allow for mistakes in aiming. It NEEDS it's high damage to compensate for the increased need of skill to use it, and it's nature as a single-fire weapon.
Reducing the rate of fire isn't going to change anything as the weapon's strong points lie in it's accuracy, which if you use it at a fast rate will send the muzzle flying off into space. Even at Operation 5 I still have to maintain some level of fire control.
Now, if you want to get really technical, it could use the same thing that the Tactical Sniper Rifle needs: The scope to not snap back to where it was when it was fired.
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Panther Alpha
WarRavens
286
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Posted - 2013.05.25 09:41:00 -
[21] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Panther Alpha wrote:Well.. I hope you ready to spend a full day writing about the Scramble Rifle... because that is coming next. Actually the overheat function on the scrambler rifle is what mitigates. A person cannot remain in a state of non-stop offense for his entire clip using one. The Tactical AR has no such limitations, and it's ammo is nearly equally effective vs. armor and shields. I use one on a regular basis. The weapon is just slightly overpowered right now.
Is the nerfing circle mate... The TAC is the most dominant weapon right now, and the weapon that K/D ratio obsess people are using, once the TAC is nerfed, all that people will move to the next "Dominant" gun in the list, which is the SCR. And that progress will continue, to all the weapon are nerfed, and we need another 10% weapon boost ...
Deja Vu anyone ? |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
373
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 09:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
Sorry, Amadi. I couldn't place the link I wanted to in the thread. It's been blocking HTML? https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=76615&find=unread
Believe it or not, I actually do not want the weapon to be nerfed. >.<
Some of us are simply trying to mitigate the nerf of the weapon. It will likely be hit hard, unless we can perhaps put our heads together, and address the concerns that other players have with the weapon.
Please, read my thread, it basically says what you've said, and attempts to reasonable integrate and address the concerns.
I stayed up late a few times, going through a few weapons that have poor hip fire spread, to find a good mitigation.
The nerf is coming. KB/M users in particular do the best while using the tactical AR. I would rather the weapon take the hit, instead of my preferred input method take another blow. |
XeroTheBigBoss
TeamPlayers EoN.
349
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 09:45:00 -
[23] - Quote
TAR reminds me of T1 sniper rifle in mag. Loved Quick scoping in MAG and in Socom3 it wasn't bad either. |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
373
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 09:54:00 -
[24] - Quote
Panther Alpha wrote:Jathniel wrote:Panther Alpha wrote:Well.. I hope you ready to spend a full day writing about the Scramble Rifle... because that is coming next. Actually the overheat function on the scrambler rifle is what mitigates. A person cannot remain in a state of non-stop offense for his entire clip using one. The Tactical AR has no such limitations, and it's ammo is nearly equally effective vs. armor and shields. I use one on a regular basis. The weapon is just slightly overpowered right now. Is the nerfing circle mate... The TAC is the most dominant weapon right now, and the weapon that K/D ratio obsess people are using, once the TAC is nerfed, all that people will move to the next "Dominant" gun in the list, which is the SCR. And that progress will continue, to all the weapon are nerfed, and we need another 10% weapon boost ... Deja Vu anyone ?
Those same people relying on the TAR also aren't very accurate. If they were accurate they would use sniper rifles.
They rely on the TAR's enhanced range for protection from counter-fire and strafe around in place while emptying their clips with impunity. It's the weapon that grants potent attack at long range, without penalty of things like sway and kick common in sniper rifles. And if they want to run up close, it will overpower there as well.
If the TAR takes a hit like the numbers I propose, it would still be potent, but only harder to use, and therefore reward truly skilled players. Reduced ammo, means less shots fired with impunity. Increased hip fire, means keeping track of your position so you don't find yourself in CQC. Slightly reduced damage prevents killing Heavies in 8-10 shots (amazing what a tactical does with 3 damage mods can do), and reduced rate of fire mitigates modded inputs.
I'm sure they went to the SCR, and found it hard to use. I know I did. I went with the SCAR instead, because the overheat kept stopping the maintained offensive style I wanted to do. I really doubt we need to worry about the SCR. |
Panther Alpha
WarRavens
286
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 10:02:00 -
[25] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Panther Alpha wrote:Jathniel wrote:Panther Alpha wrote:Well.. I hope you ready to spend a full day writing about the Scramble Rifle... because that is coming next. Actually the overheat function on the scrambler rifle is what mitigates. A person cannot remain in a state of non-stop offense for his entire clip using one. The Tactical AR has no such limitations, and it's ammo is nearly equally effective vs. armor and shields. I use one on a regular basis. The weapon is just slightly overpowered right now. Is the nerfing circle mate... The TAC is the most dominant weapon right now, and the weapon that K/D ratio obsess people are using, once the TAC is nerfed, all that people will move to the next "Dominant" gun in the list, which is the SCR. And that progress will continue, to all the weapon are nerfed, and we need another 10% weapon boost ... Deja Vu anyone ? Those same people relying on the TAR also aren't very accurate. If they were accurate they would use sniper rifles. They rely on the TAR's enhanced range for protection from counter-fire and strafe around in place while emptying their clips with impunity. It's the weapon that grants potent attack at long range, without penalty of things like sway and kick common in sniper rifles. And if they want to run up close, it will overpower there as well. If the TAR takes a hit like the numbers I propose, it would still be potent, but only harder to use, and therefore reward truly skilled players. Reduced ammo, means less shots fired with impunity. Increased hip fire, means keeping track of your position so you don't find yourself in CQC. Slightly reduced damage prevents killing Heavies in 8-10 shots (amazing what a tactical does with 3 damage mods can do), and reduced rate of fire mitigates modded inputs. I'm sure they went to the SCR, and found it hard to use. I know I did. I went with the SCAR instead, because the overheat kept stopping the maintained offensive style I wanted to do. I really doubt we need to worry about the SCR.
You don't understand ... is all about numbers, and percentage. The more people that uses a " Specific " weapon, the more often you get kill by it, and the harder the QQing is.
The TAC is not "Easy" to use.. you still have to AIM, and tap the button as hard as you can. The reason people is QQing, is because the percentage of people that is using THAT specific weapon. |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
373
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 10:18:00 -
[26] - Quote
Panther Alpha wrote:Jathniel wrote:Panther Alpha wrote:Jathniel wrote:Panther Alpha wrote:Well.. I hope you ready to spend a full day writing about the Scramble Rifle... because that is coming next. Actually the overheat function on the scrambler rifle is what mitigates. A person cannot remain in a state of non-stop offense for his entire clip using one. The Tactical AR has no such limitations, and it's ammo is nearly equally effective vs. armor and shields. I use one on a regular basis. The weapon is just slightly overpowered right now. Is the nerfing circle mate... The TAC is the most dominant weapon right now, and the weapon that K/D ratio obsess people are using, once the TAC is nerfed, all that people will move to the next "Dominant" gun in the list, which is the SCR. And that progress will continue, to all the weapon are nerfed, and we need another 10% weapon boost ... Deja Vu anyone ? Those same people relying on the TAR also aren't very accurate. If they were accurate they would use sniper rifles. They rely on the TAR's enhanced range for protection from counter-fire and strafe around in place while emptying their clips with impunity. It's the weapon that grants potent attack at long range, without penalty of things like sway and kick common in sniper rifles. And if they want to run up close, it will overpower there as well. If the TAR takes a hit like the numbers I propose, it would still be potent, but only harder to use, and therefore reward truly skilled players. Reduced ammo, means less shots fired with impunity. Increased hip fire, means keeping track of your position so you don't find yourself in CQC. Slightly reduced damage prevents killing Heavies in 8-10 shots (amazing what a tactical does with 3 damage mods can do), and reduced rate of fire mitigates modded inputs. I'm sure they went to the SCR, and found it hard to use. I know I did. I went with the SCAR instead, because the overheat kept stopping the maintained offensive style I wanted to do. I really doubt we need to worry about the SCR. You don't understand ... is all about numbers, and percentage. The more people that uses a " Specific " weapon, the more often you get kill by it, and the harder the QQing is. The TAC is not "Easy" to use.. you still have to AIM, and tap the button as hard as you can. The reason people is QQing, is because the percentage of people that is using THAT specific weapon.
I agree. The tactical AR is not a noob weapon. I disagree, however that it's a numbers thing.
Majority of players still use full-auto assault rifles (because the TAR is not a noob weapon). Majority of kills is still the full-auto assault rifle. The TAR is standing out because of it's distinct advantages. How many regular AR QQ threads are you seeing these days? In comparison to Chromosome? The number of TAR QQ threads is increasing, and people have voiced valid complaints.
If the TAR is supposed to fill a niche role within the AR category, why is it superior to the others? It takes skill to kill enemies with a TAR aiming down the scope, but not so much in CQC. Just put the crossair on a target, shoot 3 or 4 times and watch it die. The problems identified with the TAR are: - Supremacy at CQC (addressed by significantly increasing hip fire spread) - Excessive damage w/ mods (addressed by bringing the base damage down. you can safely bring the TAR's damage as low as the 50s without killing it too much, however for balance sake kiss a RoF nerf good bye) - Weapon persistence (addressed by reducing the max ammunition)
The only problem the SCR shares with the TAR is weapon persistence. A fully charged shot, last I checked, consumes the same amount of energy as normal shot, with the only penalty being the overheat. That's the same as having a sniper rifle with 40+ rounds per clip. Otherwise, the SCR is fine. |
Panther Alpha
WarRavens
286
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 10:21:00 -
[27] - Quote
I'm no saying that TAC doesn't need a " FIX " ... i just trying to avoid the CCP BIG NERFING HAMMER. |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
373
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 10:26:00 -
[28] - Quote
Panther Alpha wrote:I'm no saying that TAC doesn't need a " FIX " ... i just trying to avoid the CCP BIG NERFING HAMMER.
Me too man...
>.<
That's why I've been asking for people's input on this thread... https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=76615&find=unread
I think that if we put our heads together we can come to a final set of numbers, and produce a set of community-backed stats for the TAR.
We already know we can't trust CCP with that hammer... |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
4647
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 10:29:00 -
[29] - Quote
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=76001&find=unread |
Panther Alpha
WarRavens
287
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 10:38:00 -
[30] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=76001&find=unread
Simple solution:
Remove the crosshair from the hip firing mode, and force people to use ONLY the scope ( The same as a Sniper Rifle )
I posted this too in that thread. |
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