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MORGAN2518
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2013.05.15 06:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
So I've been thinking about planetary conquest and I have some concerns:
How will small corps or new players down the road ever be able to own their own piece of New Eden?
The answer to this question is obvious but probably impossible: CCP opens up all districts on all planets at the same time. This way the smaller corps can own some land as we can afford the buy in but need the districts to earn it back. Let me put it like this:
Our current model supports big corps. The big corp buys land, earns isk through districts and instant pub matches. The only option small corps have is to earn isk through instand pub matches. This model allows for the big corps to get bigger, faster with everyone else left is the dust (514).
My proposed model would be to open all districts and allow everybody a chance to at least keep up with the big corps to some degree. That's it really. However, this is likely impossible as the load on tranquility will be too great and it feels like CCP are engineering us to fight each other. This would not be a problem but it still leaves out the little guy.
Another thing that comes to mind is that CCP will actually exacerbate this situation, perhaps only opening up one or two systems at a time over a long period of time, allowing the big corps who are already growing bigger from their current districts, to conquer these new systems instantly.
I hope some of you share these concerns. |
fred orpaul
The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION
286
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 07:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
This is just the starter, if the current areas are controlled by a few corps then CCP will open up more regions to PC. Also if you are trying to go it alone as a small corp good luck ever really breaking into PC. My corp is not small but even we formed an alliance for PC.
Now if you are a small corp that just wants to play high end battles against other corps CCP said they are bringing back prestige fights, so if thats more your style I would bug then about getting that out. |
Zyrus Amalomyn
Militaires-Sans-Frontieres
143
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 07:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
If you want to compete with the big boys, you gotta get big yourself. You don't expect some out of shape teenager to be able to fight a heavyweight boxer, do you? |
MORGAN2518
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2013.05.15 07:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
fred orpaul wrote:This is just the starter, if the current areas are controlled by a few corps then CCP will open up more regions to PC. Also if you are trying to go it alone as a small corp good luck ever really breaking into PC. My corp is not small but even we formed an alliance for PC.
Now if you are a small corp that just wants to play high end battles against other corps CCP said they are bringing back prestige fights, so if thats more your style I would bug then about getting that out. It's more to do with passively earning all that ISK. They have tough win conditions in order to take a district as well as having to back at least 80 million into an attack. All of the cards are with the defenders as they can try and attack another using the clones they make, and if they fail then it doesn't matter, they generate more clones and do it again.
My point is this: it will be almost impossible to take a district from somebody who owns more than one already. It's also going to be a ridiculous gamble to try and take a district from anyone anyway. Those who got land will keep it, those who missed out will not. |
Jason Pearson
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
1088
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 07:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
You think we'd let you have a little piece of New Eden all to yourselves? I don't think you quite understand this place.
If you can't take a bit of land by interacting with the other corporations through force, diplomacy or subterfuge, you're not getting your hands on any land. It is not your right, you do not create a corporation and then just say "Okay I made a corp, this place is mine now."
Eventually you will have other ways to earn income, and most "big corps" incomes through PC will help supplement their player's losses.
But, you need at least 50 people to play PC, if you don't, tough luck. |
Llan Heindell
One-Armed Bandits Heretic Initiative
108
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 07:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
Yeah... This time I have to agree with the other guys. Complaining about not having support for small corps is irrelevant because you should not be looking for a way to make the game easy for you, you should be getting contacts and making friends to build stronger alliances, that's the whole meaning of this.
Llan Heindell. |
Harkon Vysarii
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
270
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 08:02:00 -
[7] - Quote
We dont have any space....yet. Thing is Molden Heath isnt the be all end all of PC
"There are many other worlds than these"
Just think even if PC goes EVE universal no one corp/ alliance will be able to hold everything. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
2973
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 08:13:00 -
[8] - Quote
Jason Pearson wrote:You think we'd let you have a little piece of New Eden all to yourselves? I don't think you quite understand this place.
If you can't take a bit of land by interacting with the other corporations through force, diplomacy or subterfuge, you're not getting your hands on any land. It is not your right, you do not create a corporation and then just say "Okay I made a corp, this place is mine now."
Eventually you will have other ways to earn income, and most "big corps" incomes through PC will help supplement their player's losses.
But, you need at least 50 people to play PC, if you don't, tough luck. Pretty much this.
If you don't have a Corp large enough to field 16 GOOD players on 24 hours notice, you're not going to be keeping your district without help. And hiring help for PC is going to cost. There's no valid reason why everyone should be handed a little piece of New Eden for their very own. You want to own something? TAKE IT. if you're not strong enough, hire someone who is, or build an army, THEN TAKE IT.
If you're a medium Corp and want to hold a district or two, but aren't sure you have the numbers to maintain constant vigilance, you can contract a small Corp - thus giving the smaller Corp PC experience as well - to provide Mercs and fill in the gaps in your roster. |
Robert JD Niewiadomski
NULLIMPEX INC
108
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 08:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
Out of sheer curiosity have checked out statuses of PC planets. Almost all of the districts are under attack This means all main players will have to maintain stable member base to successfully defend/attack districts... I wonder if this streaks of attacks would put some strain ISK and player wise on PC participants? How long will it take to allow for even one day without an attack allowing for clones generation? Otherwise Genolution(CCP) will make gazilions of ISK... |
gobbybobbyy
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
40
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 08:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
I don't think it will stay that way tho. Some alliances/ corps grabbed more than they can defend in the land grab so I see alot of districs changing hands at first, and thigs calming down later |
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Robert JD Niewiadomski
NULLIMPEX INC
108
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 08:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
gobbybobbyy wrote:I don't think it will stay that way tho. Some alliances/ corps grabbed more than they can defend in the land grab so I see alot of districs changing hands at first, and thigs calming down later Yeah, in the other thread some one have posted his corp has 16 battles scheduled due to district attacks... Maddness... |
Harkon Vysarii
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
272
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 08:52:00 -
[12] - Quote
Yeah and thats when some Alliances/ corps will probably make a show of jumping into PC. |
War Reporter
Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire
20
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 09:10:00 -
[13] - Quote
MORGAN2518 wrote:So I've been thinking about planetary conquest and I have some concerns:
How will small corps or new players down the road ever be able to own their own piece of New Eden?
The answer to this question is obvious but probably impossible: CCP opens up all districts on all planets at the same time. This way the smaller corps can own some land as we can afford the buy in but need the districts to earn it back. Let me put it like this:
Our current model supports big corps. The big corp buys land, earns isk through districts and instant pub matches. The only option small corps have is to earn isk through instand pub matches. This model allows for the big corps to get bigger, faster with everyone else left is the dust (514).
My proposed model would be to open all districts and allow everybody a chance to at least keep up with the big corps to some degree. That's it really. However, this is likely impossible as the load on tranquility will be too great and it feels like CCP are engineering us to fight each other. This would not be a problem but it still leaves out the little guy.
Another thing that comes to mind is that CCP will actually exacerbate this situation, perhaps only opening up one or two systems at a time over a long period of time, allowing the big corps who are already growing bigger from their current districts, to conquer these new systems instantly.
I hope some of you share these concerns. I'm planning on reporting PC for the foreseeable future. What I can tell you right now without looking at my notes is that I think only two corps are holding more than 10 districts. (Logistical nightmare)
And what I mean by saying that is no single corp will be able to succeed in PC alone. To go further into what I'm saying is, even if there were 1000 districts no one can defend all sides alone alliances will happen. And what you see here in the current model of PC is that some corp leaders realized this and looked to form alliances before hand. Now does this mean their is no room other smaller alliances? No, I believe there is still room. Now does this mean there is room for individual corps? No, don't believe so. Now as a smaller corp that doesn't mean you can make the big guys hurt. Harassing supply lines or attacking when a corp is weak is very possible you could very well make the difference in some of the current wars and earn a spot in an alliance.(food for thought)
But again, I just report what I see. |
Coleman Gray
GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention
273
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 09:15:00 -
[14] - Quote
Sorry to say but at the moment small corps would serve no purpose in PC other than to be absorbed by larger corps. |
War Reporter
Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire
21
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 09:30:00 -
[15] - Quote
Coleman Gray wrote:Sorry to say but at the moment small corps would serve no purpose in PC other than to be absorbed by larger corps. Or alliance depends on how you look at it. |
fred orpaul
The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION
288
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 09:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
MORGAN2518 wrote: It's more to do with passively earning all that ISK. They have tough win conditions in order to take a district as well as having to back at least 80 million into an attack. All of the cards are with the defenders as they can try and attack another using the clones they make, and if they fail then it doesn't matter, they generate more clones and do it again.
My point is this: it will be almost impossible to take a district from somebody who owns more than one already. It's also going to be a ridiculous gamble to try and take a district from anyone anyway. Those who got land will keep it, those who missed out will not.
as too the passive isk, much of that will be spent keeping the territories, remember PC is designed to benefit the attacker not defender so even if you could win a territory holding it with out the support of an alliance would be financially straining. It will, in fact, be much easier to break into PC then it will be to hold territory. My corp, on a donation basis, made enough isk in a month to fund the conquering of several districts. That means 2-3 clone packs minimum per district, if that isn't easy entry into PC, I don't know what is.
I under stand your fear but remember opening more area actually makes it harder for small corps not interested in joining and alliance as the the percentage of districts that can be under continuous attack drops, which favors larger groups that can hold more territory and therefore be more likely to have districts that are not under attack and therefore make more isk then the small corp that can only lock out one system, and therefore spend more time and money attacking other less financially stable corps.
If you really want to make a name for your small corp ally with a group of small corps and carve out a system for your self's, |
Robert JD Niewiadomski
NULLIMPEX INC
113
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 10:05:00 -
[17] - Quote
fred orpaul wrote:MORGAN2518 wrote: It's more to do with passively earning all that ISK. They have tough win conditions in order to take a district as well as having to back at least 80 million into an attack. All of the cards are with the defenders as they can try and attack another using the clones they make, and if they fail then it doesn't matter, they generate more clones and do it again.
My point is this: it will be almost impossible to take a district from somebody who owns more than one already. It's also going to be a ridiculous gamble to try and take a district from anyone anyway. Those who got land will keep it, those who missed out will not.
as too the passive isk, much of that will be spent keeping the territories, remember PC is designed to benefit the attacker not defender so even if you could win a territory holding it with out the support of an alliance would be financially straining. It will, in fact, be much easier to break into PC then it will be to hold territory. My corp, on a donation basis, made enough isk in a month to fund the conquering of several districts. That means 2-3 clone packs minimum per district, if that isn't easy entry into PC, I don't know what is. I under stand your fear but remember opening more area actually makes it harder for small corps not interested in joining and alliance as the the percentage of districts that can be under continuous attack drops, which favors larger groups that can hold more territory and therefore be more likely to have districts that are not under attack and therefore make more isk then the small corp that can only lock out one system, and therefore spend more time and money attacking other less financially stable corps. If you really want to make a name for your small corp ally with a group of small corps and carve out a system for your self's, Good point about opening new regions for PC and large corps catching some breath. I wonder for how long CCP plan to keep other regions out of PC. For how long the current bloodshed will last? |
bumm baliste
TTCorp
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 10:24:00 -
[18] - Quote
my guess is if molden heath is dominated by a few corps or if significantly more money is being lost then earned ccp will open more regions. other wise things will stay as they are.
As for how long the fighting will go on? I expect the cascade fail of half the current corps in PC and a few near misses before things stabilize and every one settles down to lick their wounds. At that point there will be only border fights and a small invasion here and there. Frankly I expect it to take no more then two months before that point, and then every 2-6months some one will get a bee in their bonnet and sov will shift in a meaningful way, new players will enter and old players will be reset, and that cycle will continue.
I give it a year before major sov holders start leasing districts to small corps to maintain control of those systems while reducing the strain of holding those districts, although I'm sure any major players right now with strong EVE backing are doing that from the get go.
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hgghyujh
Expert Intervention Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 10:27:00 -
[19] - Quote
even for the large corps I would expect no more then 10b if that, now how much for alliances as a whole, well thats any ones guess, but im guessing between 1-tens of billions |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
2977
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 10:33:00 -
[20] - Quote
MORGAN2518 wrote:It's more to do with passively earning all that ISK. They have tough win conditions in order to take a district as well as having to back at least 80 million into an attack. All of the cards are with the defenders as they can try and attack another using the clones they make, and if they fail then it doesn't matter, they generate more clones and do it again.
My point is this: it will be almost impossible to take a district from somebody who owns more than one already. It's also going to be a ridiculous gamble to try and take a district from anyone anyway. Those who got land will keep it, those who missed out will not. If you attack and win, they lose 150 clones and they don't produce clones in the following downtime. You also get the option of following up the attack to keep the district locked down. It definitely doesn't favour the defenders. It favours whichever side can win more consistently. And the win conditions are the same for both sides, not unbalanced to favour either side.
Also, once your district is under attack, you can't declare another attack from that district. And if you're serious about thinking defense is easier, then attacking another district to try and balance out your probable loss won't help, because it's hard to win the attack. |
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MORGAN2518
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 11:49:00 -
[21] - Quote
You all make great points but are forgetting to address the real concerns.
If CCP open up a few districts at a time then the big corps will just keep getting bigger while the little guy just gets left behind.
Small corps will be the lifeblood of this game, and they need to have something to do besides instant battle and faction warfare. Personally I can't wait for PvE but I fear that it will cost 100billion isk to build something that's required to get into these matches or we'll need to fight other people too.
It all sounds like I hate the game, and I kind of do but I love it for what it could become. |
BigussDikkuss
Star Poopers of the Orc Nebula
74
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 12:16:00 -
[22] - Quote
Llan Heindell wrote:Complaining about not having support for small corps is irrelevant because you should not be looking for a way to make the game easy for you, you should be getting contacts and making friends to build stronger alliances, that's the whole meaning of this.
Llan Heindell.
Who are YOU to say what the meaning of all this is? It is different for every single player. Your views are your own, not mine.
By the way, signing your name after every post when we can all see your name right under your avatar pic to the left there is REALLY pompous and assinine. Is your ego that small and fragile? |
Laheon
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
481
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 12:28:00 -
[23] - Quote
There are currently 66,856 planets in Eve Online. Let's take two fifths of those away for being in highsec - that leaves approximately 40,000 planets in low and nullsec waiting to be discovered. Multiply by an average of, what, 8 districts? 320,000 districts to be taken over, across all planet types.
I'm sure there will be room in lowsec for some of the smaller corps. Maybe not nullsec, but definitely lowsec.
That said, once the population of the game hits critical mass, I can imagine that all those planets will be quite crowded.
Also, don't expect to be able to take and hold a district with just 30 people. There will obviously be some inactivity, meaning active player count could be down as low as 20. Then, people have jobs and need to sleep, so expect attacks when your player count is down at around 5. This would result in a 5v16 or 5v24 match. Absolute slaughter. |
SUGAR-BOO-BOO
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 13:01:00 -
[24] - Quote
Laheon wrote:Also, don't expect to be able to take and hold a district with just 30 people. There will obviously be some inactivity, meaning active player count could be down as low as 20. Then, people have jobs and need to sleep, so expect attacks when your player count is down at around 5. This would result in a 5v16 or 5v24 match. Absolute slaughter.
This, IMO, is the "broken" aspect of Planetary Conquest that several posters like myself point too.
On the PC, this type of game works because of the type of people who play PC games. On a Console, this type of system will not work because of the type of people who play Console games. We can argue the differences between "types" all day, but only an ignorant fool would claim that there are none.
Dust 514 needs to have some sort of "Merc 4 Hire" aspect with the Planetary Conquest portion of this game - in fact an entire Battle section devoted to it. For example, if a battle on District X is about to occur and that Corp only have 5 players online to defend, they should be able to send out invites (hire for a price) to other players to fight for them. I am not saying those hired players will give it their all, but still, it would be a nice option and addition to this game. And rather realistic too.
THAT is what the MERCENARY BATTLE SECTION should be instead of the NPC led system it currently is. |
Laheon
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
481
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 13:48:00 -
[25] - Quote
SUGAR-BOO-BOO wrote:Dust 514 needs to have some sort of "Merc 4 Hire" aspect with the Planetary Conquest portion of this game - in fact an entire Battle section devoted to it. For example, if a battle on District X is about to occur and that Corp only have 5 players online to defend, they should be able to send out invites (hire for a price) to other players to fight for them. I am not saying those hired players will give it their all, but still, it would be a nice option and addition to this game. And rather realistic too.
THAT is what the MERCENARY BATTLE SECTION should be instead of the NPC led system it currently is.
Agreed. Well, sort of.
You have 24 hours notice from the start of the wardec to the battle. You can easily put out a request for more mercs (e.g. contact a mercenary corporation, should be some of those popping up soon), have them join your corp, fight the battle, then pay them afterwards. And them kick them.
That kind of thing is allowed by game mechanics. It isn't optimal by any means, but it IS possible. Just need to think outside the box. |
Herli Pascal
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:12:00 -
[26] - Quote
SUGAR-BOO-BOO wrote: Dust 514 needs to have some sort of "Merc 4 Hire" aspect with the Planetary Conquest portion of this game.
This already exists, albeit not quite in the format you outlined. You can bring outside players into a PC battle. This has led quite a few corps offering mercenary services to corps that need help with PC (ie PFBHz). The deals aren't controlled by any sort of in game mechanic, just verbal agreement. That's not to say a corp shouldn't be able to ask for every Tom, Bob, and Harry via an ingame menu, but you're gonna get what you paid for.
Regarding the OP, I don't think that CCP has to get involved with PC due to a question of manpower and logistics. If you want to get into PC you need to be prepared for the man hours and logistics involved. Having PC delivered on a silver platter diminishes the whole experience. Struggling and working for it will make it much more satisfying in the end.
So HTFU. I mean that in the kindest way. |
RINON114
B.S.A.A.
154
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 16:21:00 -
[27] - Quote
Herli Pascal wrote:SUGAR-BOO-BOO wrote: Dust 514 needs to have some sort of "Merc 4 Hire" aspect with the Planetary Conquest portion of this game.
This already exists, albeit not quite in the format you outlined. You can bring outside players into a PC battle. This has led quite a few corps offering mercenary services to corps that need help with PC (ie PFBHz). The deals aren't controlled by any sort of in game mechanic, just verbal agreement. That's not to say a corp shouldn't be able to ask for every Tom, Bob, and Harry via an ingame menu, but you're gonna get what you paid for. Regarding the OP, I don't think that CCP has to get involved with PC due to a question of manpower and logistics. If you want to get into PC you need to be prepared for the man hours and logistics involved. Having PC delivered on a silver platter diminishes the whole experience. Struggling and working for it will make it much more satisfying in the end. So HTFU. I mean that in the kindest way. Yeah that sounds nice except that it's highly frustrating for a lot of people. It's similar to a frustration I have IRL: The flat I am in right now, I have to pay for. Why? Because somebody got there first. Somebody, a very long time ago took this land and built on it and called it theirs. We used to take stuff by force yet we don't any more because we're civilised.
Why is nobody in New Eden civilised?
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BigussDikkuss
Star Poopers of the Orc Nebula
81
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 19:54:00 -
[28] - Quote
Herli Pascal wrote:SUGAR-BOO-BOO wrote: Dust 514 needs to have some sort of "Merc 4 Hire" aspect with the Planetary Conquest portion of this game.
This already exists, albeit not quite in the format you outlined.
That's a bit like someone asking for an orange, and you replying "This apple here is an orange. Except that it's an apple."
PS - People that post "HTFU" are such dweebs. |
BigussDikkuss
Star Poopers of the Orc Nebula
81
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 19:58:00 -
[29] - Quote
HTFU = "Here's The Fine Upholstery"
So many Eve and Dust players must be in need of fabric! |
Fro Diesel
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 20:03:00 -
[30] - Quote
When/if new areas are opened up to pc who is even to say that they will be near molden heath. Say they open an area that is 20 jumps from molden heath. All of the big corps that are in that region would be stuck there. The clone attrition would not allow them to make it to the new system.
I know the new system could then be over run by large corps/alliances but if thats the case then they will open yet another section of space. Thats the way I see it at least. |
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