DUST Search - The Dropship situation.

Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:

ALM1GHTY B44L R00 wrote:

Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:

OMG... AV too good? Really? Do you realize that the players who go AV are sacrificing their ability to effectively deal with infantry engagements. And the FG lost a lot of range when heavy weapon sharp shooter got removed. I've heard that the standard FG is locked at 300 meters now but I can't verify that.

Where's the infantry support for you pilots? While I'm running my FG, I'm hell on vehicles but have to rely on my SMG for infantry encounters. Yep. That's right, an SMG. Don't get me wrong, I've done my fair share of forge sniping but that takes distance and elevation to be consistent and it still takes a lot of luck with the increased dispersion. It's very difficult up close and personal. Otherwise, my squad supplies over watch and tactical intel to help me keep my fat slow butt alive and fighting.

There are many times when I've hit pilots with my 9K330. I manage to rap out two or three shots before they've out ranged me and come back repped. Meanwhile I have to run around dodging enemy infantry. Does this bug me? Hell no. I expect it. However, if I start pounding you with my 9K330 and you just sit there, or fly straight at me like a few have done, don't expect any sympathy as I turn your ds into burning slag.

One last thing, I can rarely take out a DS or HAV that's well supported by infantry unless I'm in a really advantageous position, and those are hard to get into.

Then you are bad at forge gun.

3 shots from an 9K330 will take out any dropship in the game, most in 2, and OHKs all infantry. The 9K330 does more splash damage than a direct hit from an EXO mass driver, with basically the same radius, and TWICE the splash damage.

I'm not a pro player and I will never claim to be. So no, I don't land every shot, but I work well with my corp squad and they like having a dedicated AV on the team.

I believe 9K330 has a 1.5 meter radius, I think the MDs have 3.3. I'm not too sure as I'm more interested in a direct hit with the FG and I've never used a MD. But yes, 3 hits usually has a high end DS on fire. Low to mids still take two to three to bring down. But I have had DS targets bolt on the first hit, take a second, then were out of range by either climbing or speeding off. You guys don't all fit your DS the same. LOL


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
ALM1GHTY B44L R00 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 30	Posted - 2013.05.14 19:14:00 - [1] - Quote From a dedicated dropship pilot: swarms are fine. Your story sounds pretty balanced. Plenty of time to respond, take evasive maneuvers, etc. This is the real story: Call in dropship. Get it in dropship. Take off. Everything looks quite, fly a little closer to the battle. Still quiet. BOOM forge gun hit. Crap where did that come from!? Turn on module. Come on activate activate activate Try to change direction. This is like reversing a cruise ship. BOOM forge gun hit.Burning damage. Dead. 1 MIL ISK out the window.
ALM1GHTY B44L R00 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 32	Posted - 2013.05.14 19:40:00 - [2] - Quote Nguruthos IX wrote: gbghg wrote: Foxhound Elite wrote: Dust Evo 514 wrote: So you're telling us that you do not like being taken out by something that is designed to take you out? head explodes No i'm telling you that I do not like being taken out by something that is designed to take me out THAT EASILY. We have no problem with dying to AV, we expect it. We can't stand being taken out so quickly and with no recourse, oh and the fact that we get crappy rewards for putting huge amounts on the line. I take issue with being destroyed effortlessly in faster time than can be physically reacted to. By a dirt cheap or free gun. By someone with little or no SP. While my vehicle cost 1.5 million and 10 million in SP. And while such a person if not destroying me instantly, can deny me any usefulness on the whole map for an entire game. Bloody brilliant way to balance AV guys. The real kicker here is that dropships actually have less relative survivability than a dropsuit. Can you imagine how much complaining there would be if half the STD anti-infantry weapons could drop prototype suits as quickly and effortlessly as forge guns take out dropships?
ALM1GHTY B44L R00 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 38	Posted - 2013.05.14 21:57:00 - [3] - Quote Dust Evo 514 wrote: M3DIC 2U wrote: Is a derpship supposed to provide overhead protection or just deploy a squad then bug out? To me a DROPship, drops off troops and leaves, not tries to tank overhead. IMHO EXACTLY! Dropships are transportation vehicles first and foremost. You fly in, pick up soldiers, drop off at point whatever, then fly away to repeat the process. Dropships are NOT sky tanks. The turrets are to cover the troops getting dropped off! Not to wage war on ground pawns. Then why are the only rewards for flying these things earned by "waging war on ground pawns?" Furthermore, how are we supposed to drop off infantry if the moment we fly anywhere NEAR the sort of area where infantry would want to go, we get either OHKed without warning, or at best, left with 20% of our HPs and given a 2-5 second Window to get halfway acrossed the map just to get out of range of shot #2?
ALM1GHTY B44L R00 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 90	Posted - 2013.05.18 19:46:00 - [4] - Quote Jaron Pollard wrote: Big Popa Smurff wrote: Im an experienced forge gunner, have been since the E3 build. and dropships just arent fun to shoot anymore. There is no challenge, no adrenaline rush when trying to take 1 out. I took out a logi dropship with 2 shots yesterday, i actually felt bad for the pilot. I dont fly them, i just kill them and i can say they are too easy to kill. i suggest lowering the damage of forge and rail done to dropships in the air. ccp could come up with some bullshit that the thin air reduces the shots damage the higher dropships fly. I'm not sure how easy it is to aim a forge, but any pilot worth his wings is going to remain mobile in order to be a difficult target for dumbfire weapons in the first place. This is like telling a Heavy that they just need to out strafe a sniper. It's just not realistic. In order to do ANYTHING useful a drop ship pilot has to slow down and lose their momentum. Be it pick passengers up, drop them off, or even provide covering blanket fire. Once you lose your momentum in a dropship, it takes about 6-7 seconds to get back up to speed, and that's assuming you're moving in a straight line. Evasive maneuvers actually slow down the craft because they augment your momentum in different directions as you bob and weave. So, the first shot is a freebie, because again, to be useful you have to slow down. So, BLAM, if you're flying a very well fit dropships, you now have in the ballpark of 2000-2500 HP left. Now, the next 6-7 seconds is spent either moving in a straight line to try and get some speed and hoping the FGer is a terrible shot OR you're trying to twist and dodge in slow motion for 10-15 seconds. If you pick option A, the forge gunner gets two shots at an object moving in a straight line, with option B they get 4 or 5 shots on a slow but erratic target. If they hit you with EITHER, you're done, you may be able to technically survive, but you WILL be in burning damage, and you'll have roughly 5 seconds to finish your evasive maneuvers, get to a safe location, and either land, jump out, and use a rep tool on your boat, or hover close to a supply depo. Basically "fly better" is a nonsense reply. If the game gave me the ability to "out fly" forge gunners reliably, I wouldn't be complaining... I'd just out fly them. Realistically though, the game mechanics, and the extremely high damage output crossed with ease of use of the forge gun just doesn't allow for such things.
ALM1GHTY B44L R00 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 91	Posted - 2013.05.18 20:02:00 - [5] - Quote Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe wrote: One thing worth mentioning is that an afterburner can drop that "6-7 seconds" down to "1-3 seconds". This is, of course, infeasible for shield dropship pilots as they would have to sacrifice an extender, and thus a very large portion of their survivability, but for those of us that went armor it's a life saver. Doubly so, in fact, thanks to the top-speed and momentum penalties that come with plating. So, did they un-nerf the afterburners? I used to use them unitl the nerf, and they did make the dropship gameplay much more dynamic. However, after the nerf, they took 3 seconds to activate, and only gave about a 10-15% speed increase. So, you spent 3 seconds after getting hit waiting for it to activate, and then shaved about half a second off what was left of your escape... in exchange you had to give up enough PG to increase your eHP about 1500 HP. Before the nerf, if you were quick, the afterburner was even usable on shield ships. I used them regularly on a Myron. Trigger immediately after the first forge gun shot and it charged up and activated just a moment or so before the forge gunner had his gun charged back up, hurtling the dropship up and out of his sights. The only problem with it was that your eHP was so low with it onboard, a forge gunner and basically any other AVer simply had to fire on you at the same time and you were toast... which honestly, I always considered good play by the opponent and never felt cheated when beat in that manner.
ALM1GHTY B44L R00 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 91	Posted - 2013.05.18 20:17:00 - [6] - Quote I still think there are 2 or 3 relatively simply things CCP could do to fix dropships. 1. Give Dropships a built in resistance vs energy based attacks, but increase the knockback damage. My suggestion, based on what must be 100s of hours flying, would be to give dropships a 30% resist, and 40% more knockback. This effectively let dropships tank one more forge gun shot, but more importantly, would reward good pilots and punish half-assed forge gun attacks. See, With extra knockback, a bad pilot will be left careening out of control, but a GOOD pilot could recover from said knockback, and possibly even use the momentum to their advantage if they were skilled enough. Otoh, the forge gunner could use the extra knockback to more strategically attack a dropship, or set up ambushes. Positioning themselves so the dropship will be between themselves and a building for example. The forge gunners could also work together with swarm launcher users by using the knockback to kill a dropships forward momentum (by hitting up in the nose as we fly in), leaving us vulnerable to a swarm attack to finish off our armor. This would make the DS vs. AV fights much more dynamic and skill/strategy based. 2. More dropship specific modules. CCP have already given us the Afterburners, so we know they aren't adverse to Aerial Vehicle specific modules. So how about a module that basically does an even higher resistance than my suggestion in 1 say 60% reduction to energy damage (by diverting the energy into kinetic knockback of, again, 40%) that otherwise works the same way as the current active resist modules. Since it would be active, and would require a slot of the ship, it gets the higher resistance. 3. Give Dropships more skills with more passive bonuses to skill into. I've got about 7 million SP invested into vehicle usage, mostly dropships, and I'm running out of skills already. Sure, the climb to those last few levels to get 3% faster shield recharge is still there, and for HUGE SP investments I can still squeeze out a tiny bit more effectiveness. But overall, I'm just about maxed out already, after what? 6 weeks of play? Give me more 5x skills to increase my PG, get more resistance, increase afterburner efficiency, etc, etc. If you code it, we'll skill in to it.
ALM1GHTY B44L R00 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 91	Posted - 2013.05.18 20:25:00 - [7] - Quote Skihids wrote: Guys, just give it up. There is no place in DUST for pilots. There is no mission that can't be better accomplished with an Assault suit and an AR. The sole mission in DUST is to kill, so get yourself a beefy suit and a rifle. It's the only thing that is rewarded. Hey man, you and I have been in this particular trench fighting this fight together for awhile now, I know how you feel. I've also seen you fly many times, and we've even been in some air-to-air battles before. You're a good pilot. At the risk of sounding conceited (which I assure you, I AM), I'd say you're an equal match to my own flying skills. You know as well as I do that although the current balance for dropships is borked, the reality is that a few fairly minor tweaks is all that is needed to make these things viable again. It's true that we've been asking for something to be done for a long time, and it's true that the only thing we've gotten as pilots is nerf after nerf after nerf, but it's also true that only lately have we really started to get ANY feedback from the Devs that maybe, just maybe, something may be done about this. We're even starting to get forge gun users speaking up and taking our side, because they're just plain old bored with how easy it is to swat us out of the sky. I know that you're making the above post out of frustration, I've made similar posts as well, but I'd hate to see one of the best pilots out there just give up on the cause. This issue is hitting a critical mass lately, we need to keep the momentum going, not give up right as the devs are beginning to respond and our opponents with the FGs are starting to speak on our behalf.
ALM1GHTY B44L R00 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 92	Posted - 2013.05.18 20:36:00 - [8] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: 4. Introduce falloff damage to forge guns and tweak back their optimal range, making them nasty killers at close to medium range, and more support / harassment at long ranges. 5. Replace rail gun installations in all red zones with an equal or greater number of missile turrets. (this is more of a random thought without having to actually touch how rail guns work in general, as I don't know how that can be adjusted, I just know they're insanely effective vs dropships for extremely little effort or risk) Both great suggestions. However, railgun turrets aren't honestly as much of a concern IMO, because turrets are just as easy for our forge gun toting allies to take out as we are to our forge gunning enemies. When I'm flying with my team, I have confidence that any turret I need removed will be removed post haste. Since turrets actually show up on the HUD fairly reliably, I feel like overall this part of the gameplay is fairly well balanced honestly. That being said, missile turrets still hit pretty hard, and are A LOT more dynamic to be up against with a dropship. One of my favorite activities is ducking and dodging missile installation barrages. In the long term, turret placement will be dynamic, so your suggestion would only be a temporary one anyhow. Introducing falloff damage to forge guns and tweaking back their optimal range would definitely be a huge improvement. The only real problem I see with it is that it would also reduce the forge gun's efficacy against HAVs, which they are currently fairly well balanced against. (I'm not yet convinced that FG's should have the 10% buff they recently received rolled back, but that's not a debate I want to start here).
ALM1GHTY B44L R00 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 92	Posted - 2013.05.18 20:37:00 - [9] - Quote Nariec wrote: Foxhound Elite wrote: Storytime over. How can a 6,585 ISK Swarm Launcher that only takes less than a million SP pin down a 1.2 million ISK ship worth over a 3million SP that easily? Or the fast firing forge gun that does 1.5k damage (base) with a 3.5 second charge time? That's barely any time for the pilot to accelerate away and try rep their shields. Well, in modern warfare (Not any video games but in real life) how can a Stinger Missile shoot down enemy aircraft with just one shot? How can a Javilin Missile take down Tanks with its warhead? I know this setting is in the "future" so I understand that vehicles are built more durable and high tech, but so as the Infantry weapons made to counter them, specially in the EVE universe, where the arms race of four powerful empires is always at full throttle, trying to find the cheapest counter. The problem with this argument is that it can be applied to every gun in the game. If this is your argument, then it follows that you are arguing that basically every weapon should OHK all infantry as well.
ALM1GHTY B44L R00 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 93	Posted - 2013.05.18 23:16:00 - [10] - Quote Dark Deviser wrote: so basically... >dropship get nerf >pilot get mad >ccp dont give >pilot rage on fourm >other pilots join rage on fourm >all non pilots dont give >pilot leave butt hurty >end story I suppose if you want to break it down in the douchiest way possible, yes. The dropships are being handled so poorly that most of the pilots are going to quit piloting after they get their respec unless something is done about it. Depending on what your opinion is on battlefield diversity and strategic gameplay, this is either a problem or a godsend. If you're a proponent for deepening the strategic gameplay and diversity, then it's a problem. If you're interested in seeing Dust further sink into a CQC CoD style rush tactic game, then rejoice.

ALM1GHTY B44L R00 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 96	Posted - 2013.05.19 00:51:00 - [11] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: OMG... AV too good? Really? Do you realize that the players who go AV are sacrificing their ability to effectively deal with infantry engagements. And the FG lost a lot of range when heavy weapon sharp shooter got removed. I've heard that the standard FG is locked at 300 meters now but I can't verify that. Where's the infantry support for you pilots? While I'm running my FG, I'm hell on vehicles but have to rely on my SMG for infantry encounters. Yep. That's right, an SMG. Don't get me wrong, I've done my fair share of forge sniping but that takes distance and elevation to be consistent and it still takes a lot of luck with the increased dispersion. It's very difficult up close and personal. Otherwise, my squad supplies over watch and tactical intel to help me keep my fat slow butt alive and fighting. There are many times when I've hit pilots with my 9K330. I manage to rap out two or three shots before they've out ranged me and come back repped. Meanwhile I have to run around dodging enemy infantry. Does this bug me? Hell no. I expect it. However, if I start pounding you with my 9K330 and you just sit there, or fly straight at me like a few have done, don't expect any sympathy as I turn your ds into burning slag. One last thing, I can rarely take out a DS or HAV that's well supported by infantry unless I'm in a really advantageous position, and those are hard to get into. Then you are bad at forge gun. 3 shots from an 9K330 will take out any dropship in the game, most in 2, and OHKs all infantry. The 9K330 does more splash damage than a direct hit from an EXO mass driver, with basically the same radius, and TWICE the splash damage.
ALM1GHTY B44L R00 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 98	Posted - 2013.05.19 06:18:00 - [12] - Quote Nguruthos IX wrote: The Cobra Commander wrote: gbghg wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe wrote: Hey, guys, turns out we're all just awful pilots. Turns out if we put Baal in a dropship he'd just get infinity kills and never die and make us all look like tools. Well, problem solved, I guess. I'll just go back to failing to ever satisfy a woman. Boy, I wish that last sentence was as sarcastic as the others. Oh, yeah, totally. Because I just got through sharing how EPIC I am at flying a DS..... No, tactics are tactics, and if you are dumb enough to fly into AV when you know it's there, who do you blame? THE AV! Of coooooourse! It's the AV's fault for capitalizing on your bad judgement! Ah, I should have grasped it long ago.... Actually your right, if you fly into AV you basically deserve to get shot down. Problem is forge guns killing you before you even know that they're there. No, you got it all wrong...see your tactics will allow you to know that they are there....just forget about the rendering issues at times... Don't you mean magical psychic powers ? Sans rendering issues fact still remains that one FG could be anywhere on the map at any time. And that's all it takes to trounce you. Two is just simply unfair. I guess I'll just go tell my infantry to scour the whole SqKm of the map and find this little fellow before anyone knows he exists. Right? Yup, considering Forge Guns have crazy range, and do more SPLASH DAMAGE than a mass driver does DIRECT damage to infantry, there's no reason for FG users to use anything else. You've got a "better than a mass driver" anti-infantry weapon that can also blast DS and LAVs in 1 or 2 shots.
ALM1GHTY B44L R00 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 98	Posted - 2013.05.19 06:28:00 - [13] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: ALM1GHTY B44L R00 wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: OMG... AV too good? Really? Do you realize that the players who go AV are sacrificing their ability to effectively deal with infantry engagements. And the FG lost a lot of range when heavy weapon sharp shooter got removed. I've heard that the standard FG is locked at 300 meters now but I can't verify that. Where's the infantry support for you pilots? While I'm running my FG, I'm hell on vehicles but have to rely on my SMG for infantry encounters. Yep. That's right, an SMG. Don't get me wrong, I've done my fair share of forge sniping but that takes distance and elevation to be consistent and it still takes a lot of luck with the increased dispersion. It's very difficult up close and personal. Otherwise, my squad supplies over watch and tactical intel to help me keep my fat slow butt alive and fighting. There are many times when I've hit pilots with my 9K330. I manage to rap out two or three shots before they've out ranged me and come back repped. Meanwhile I have to run around dodging enemy infantry. Does this bug me? Hell no. I expect it. However, if I start pounding you with my 9K330 and you just sit there, or fly straight at me like a few have done, don't expect any sympathy as I turn your ds into burning slag. One last thing, I can rarely take out a DS or HAV that's well supported by infantry unless I'm in a really advantageous position, and those are hard to get into. Then you are bad at forge gun. 3 shots from an 9K330 will take out any dropship in the game, most in 2, and OHKs all infantry. The 9K330 does more splash damage than a direct hit from an EXO mass driver, with basically the same radius, and TWICE the splash damage. I'm not a pro player and I will never claim to be. So no, I don't land every shot, but I work well with my corp squad and they like having a dedicated AV on the team. I believe 9K330 has a 1.5 meter radius, I think the MDs have 3.3. I'm not too sure as I'm more interested in a direct hit with the FG and I've never used a MD. But yes, 3 hits usually has a high end DS on fire. Low to mids still take two to three to bring down. But I have had DS targets bolt on the first hit, take a second, then were out of range by either climbing or speeding off. You guys don't all fit your DS the same. LOL The 9K330 splash radius is 0.3 meters smaller than the EXO (realistically, they are for most intents and purposes the same), and it's splash damage does just under twice the damage of the EXO's splash. And to reiterate, the splash on the 9k330 does as much damage as the direct damage of the EXO. A direct hit with the 9K330 is an OHK on every dropsuit in the game. I assure you, I've fit every combination possible with DSs, and YES we basically all use the same fits because our PG has been nerfed so far that there are only 2 or 3 viable options for each model that a competent pilot would ever actually fly. The most tanked out dropship cannot survive 3 shots from a 9K330 without, at best, being DEEP into burning damage. You have to understand, that USUALLY you don't get the notification of a kill, because when burning damage takes us out we either get charged with a team kill or a suicide. You see the guy fly away after that 3rd shot, and if you don't pay attention to their escape, you'll likely never know that they crashed and burned trying to pull off a hot landing with a rep tool.