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![Cat Merc Cat Merc](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/avatars/avatar_4_male_128.jpg)
Cat Merc
BetaMax. CRONOS.
1027
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Posted - 2013.05.12 17:27:00 -
[31] - Quote
Disturbingly Bored wrote:Two things:
1) Thinking in terms of "oh, the HP is just one more bullet" is naive. What matters in Time to Kill. Which is DPS vs Effective HP. Your line of thinking is why so many people have cried that Damage Mods are OP without realized that full shield extender fits wipe the floor with full damage mod fits.
2) Assault Rifles, the most popular weapon the game, do 110% damage to shields and 90% to armor. Once you start figuring that into Time to Kill, Caldari and Gallente suits stack up pretty evenly.
So what's the problem still? Shield extenders need a drawback as detrimental as armor plates' drawback. Something that increases hitbox would be interesting, but could totally screw with the game.
Honestly, I think using shield extenders should make you much more likely to show up on passive radar. Sure you're beefier, but everyone knows where you're at. 2. For now. But that's 1 of four AR's that are supposed to be in game. Minmatar AR will probably do 110% to armor, just like the SMG. |
![Full Metal Kitten Full Metal Kitten](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/avatars/avatar_3_male_128.jpg)
Full Metal Kitten
Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation
246
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Posted - 2013.05.12 17:30:00 -
[32] - Quote
I agree with DB. SE should have a penalty to scan profile. |
![Cat Merc Cat Merc](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/avatars/avatar_4_male_128.jpg)
Cat Merc
BetaMax. CRONOS.
1028
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Posted - 2013.05.12 17:31:00 -
[33] - Quote
Full Metal Kitten wrote:I agree with DB. SE should have a penalty to scan profile. That doesn't even BEGIN to compare to the armor penalty. If shields get scan profile, armor needs to get stamina. Speed > Scan profile. |
![Christopher Green Christopher Green](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/avatars/avatar_4_male_128.jpg)
Christopher Green
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.05.12 17:37:00 -
[34] - Quote
Don't forget with armour tanks you can fit more damage mods since it doesn't clash with slot space for your tank. |
![Cat Merc Cat Merc](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/avatars/avatar_4_male_128.jpg)
Cat Merc
BetaMax. CRONOS.
1030
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Posted - 2013.05.12 17:39:00 -
[35] - Quote
Christopher Green wrote:Don't forget with armour tanks you can fit more damage mods since it doesn't clash with slot space for your tank. As I said, CPU/PG upgrades take the same slots, so its impossible to have a proper fit with damage mods. |
![Delirium Inferno Delirium Inferno](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/avatars/avatar_2_male_128.jpg)
Delirium Inferno
Edoras Corporation
220
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Posted - 2013.05.12 17:43:00 -
[36] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Delirium Inferno wrote:To everyone who thinks Armor Tanking is useless.
1. You probably think the plates make you ridiculously slow. Why don't you do the math and see exactly where a 10% reduction actually takes you. You don't become as slow as a heavy, I can guarantee you. You still get around just fine. I've ran down several people with my armor tanking suit. When you are traveling distances within a single base, you are going to get there at pretty much the same time as a guy without armor plates, so it's ideal for defending the entirety of a base. The only point where you'll notice the speed difference is if you're trying to run long distances between bases.
2. You probably think armor sucks because it doesn't recharge automatically and even when it does it is slower than shield recharging. However, Gallente gets a ton of low-slots so you have room for a couple complex armor repairers. With these two plus the skill bonus, you are repairing 12.5 per second. And this is continuous, no delay. A shield tanker may have to wait 6 seconds for the recharge to kick in, in that time I have already repaired 75 of my armor. And if a shield guy gets hit just a little during that delay it starts over. Armor repairers are much better in my opinion for long shootouts whereas shield tanking is better for when you plan for quick engagements.
3. Armor plating gives you a lot more health than shield extenders. They also don't get wiped out when standing somewhat near a flux grenade. They can be repaired by an equipment that can go over 100 hp per second. There is no shield repairer tool. When you get revived by a nano injector, it revives a percentage of your armor but none of your shields, so armor tankers come back stronger.
Not even to mention we are getting a new weapon in a couple days that will tear through shields. I'm not saying shields are useless, but armor tanking does have plenty of upsides. 1. Walking speed is important for 1v1, and gallente are always easier targets because of that. 2. A Caldari can fit extenders without having to fit any "reps". And no, that's 100% false and I tested time and time again, after the first hit, another hit won't reset the timer. Putting a shield reg on your suit will negate a lot of that time spent waiting. 3. Armor plating gives you a bullet more health. A bullet. And if you use it you don't get to have proper recharge. Any explosives destroy armor instantly, and its not like you have a layer of suit behind that armor like shields do. Also, that 100hp rep is a lie, its only for vehicles, I checked. Shield transfers will come, EVE has it, its not like CCP cares about Shield/Armor balance like they showed time and time again. The scrambler rifle does 120% damage to shields and 80% to armor. AR does 110% to shields, 90% to armor. So none of your upsides are actually true. 1. My buddy is a shield tanker. We tried getting the normal distance between most 1v1s and moving around, it was pretty similar. Not enough to make any noticeable difference in 1v1s. You are still taking the fallocy of assuming armor makes you ridiculously slow, which it does not. Have you actually skilled into armor and tried putting it on before?
2. Ok, so even if I'm wrong on the shield recharge thing, it still takes 6 seconds to recharge which is 75 armor repaired in that time. Even if you reduce that time a little, keep in mind 10% of 6 seconds is only .6 seconds. So instead of the armor tanker repairing 75 armor during your delay, he repaired 67.5. There is still an upside here.
3. Armor tankers may have to use some of the slots that could go towards more armor for armor repairers, but even then because armor gives you more hitpoints than shields we come out with similar total hitpoints. So what's the difference here? Armor tankers can still fit damage modifiers. If a shield tanker tries that then he loses those hitpoints. Explosives do not instantly destroy armor, that is false. It hurts us a lot more than it would shields, but it doesn't instantly wipe it out like flux grenades to shields. And I'll have to check with you on that 100hp repair tool because I've heard several people say they are loving on infantry. Either way there is still no shield repairer tool. Shield transfers would still be transfers, meaning someone would have to give some up. And you proved my point exactly that the scrambler rifle and assault rifle both do more damage to shields than they do armor. 20% difference with the assault rifle, 40% difference with the scrambler. These are very substantial values. Oh and you didn't even try to counter on the revival part. If someone is using the 30% standard injector, that is either 0 shield and 40 armor for a Caldari shield tanker who put nothing into armor. If invested in the 25% armor upgrade core skill, then congratulations! The Caldari shield tanker gets 0 shield and 50 armor on revival. Good luck with that.
So actually, all my upsides are true buddy. |
![Cat Merc Cat Merc](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/avatars/avatar_4_male_128.jpg)
Cat Merc
BetaMax. CRONOS.
1030
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Posted - 2013.05.12 17:50:00 -
[37] - Quote
Delirium Inferno wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Delirium Inferno wrote:To everyone who thinks Armor Tanking is useless.
1. You probably think the plates make you ridiculously slow. Why don't you do the math and see exactly where a 10% reduction actually takes you. You don't become as slow as a heavy, I can guarantee you. You still get around just fine. I've ran down several people with my armor tanking suit. When you are traveling distances within a single base, you are going to get there at pretty much the same time as a guy without armor plates, so it's ideal for defending the entirety of a base. The only point where you'll notice the speed difference is if you're trying to run long distances between bases.
2. You probably think armor sucks because it doesn't recharge automatically and even when it does it is slower than shield recharging. However, Gallente gets a ton of low-slots so you have room for a couple complex armor repairers. With these two plus the skill bonus, you are repairing 12.5 per second. And this is continuous, no delay. A shield tanker may have to wait 6 seconds for the recharge to kick in, in that time I have already repaired 75 of my armor. And if a shield guy gets hit just a little during that delay it starts over. Armor repairers are much better in my opinion for long shootouts whereas shield tanking is better for when you plan for quick engagements.
3. Armor plating gives you a lot more health than shield extenders. They also don't get wiped out when standing somewhat near a flux grenade. They can be repaired by an equipment that can go over 100 hp per second. There is no shield repairer tool. When you get revived by a nano injector, it revives a percentage of your armor but none of your shields, so armor tankers come back stronger.
Not even to mention we are getting a new weapon in a couple days that will tear through shields. I'm not saying shields are useless, but armor tanking does have plenty of upsides. 1. Walking speed is important for 1v1, and gallente are always easier targets because of that. 2. A Caldari can fit extenders without having to fit any "reps". And no, that's 100% false and I tested time and time again, after the first hit, another hit won't reset the timer. Putting a shield reg on your suit will negate a lot of that time spent waiting. 3. Armor plating gives you a bullet more health. A bullet. And if you use it you don't get to have proper recharge. Any explosives destroy armor instantly, and its not like you have a layer of suit behind that armor like shields do. Also, that 100hp rep is a lie, its only for vehicles, I checked. Shield transfers will come, EVE has it, its not like CCP cares about Shield/Armor balance like they showed time and time again. The scrambler rifle does 120% damage to shields and 80% to armor. AR does 110% to shields, 90% to armor. So none of your upsides are actually true. 1. My buddy is a shield tanker. We tried getting the normal distance between most 1v1s and moving around, it was pretty similar. Not enough to make any noticeable difference in 1v1s. You are still taking the fallocy of assuming armor makes you ridiculously slow, which it does not. Have you actually skilled into armor and tried putting it on before? 2. Ok, so even if I'm wrong on the shield recharge thing, it still takes 6 seconds to recharge which is 75 armor repaired in that time. Even if you reduce that time a little, keep in mind 10% of 6 seconds is only .6 seconds. So instead of the armor tanker repairing 75 armor during your delay, he repaired 67.5. There is still an upside here. 3. Armor tankers may have to use some of the slots that could go towards more armor for armor repairers, but even then because armor gives you more hitpoints than shields we come out with similar total hitpoints. So what's the difference here? Armor tankers can still fit damage modifiers. If a shield tanker tries that then he loses those hitpoints. Explosives do not instantly destroy armor, that is false. It hurts us a lot more than it would shields, but it doesn't instantly wipe it out like flux grenades to shields. And I'll have to check with you on that 100hp repair tool because I've heard several people say they are loving on infantry. Either way there is still no shield repairer tool. Shield transfers would still be transfers, meaning someone would have to give some up. And you proved my point exactly that the scrambler rifle and assault rifle both do more damage to shields than they do armor. 20% difference with the assault rifle, 40% difference with the scrambler. These are very substantial values. So actually, all my upsides are true buddy. 1. Yes, I have, and its slow as hell. Have you ever tried to use shields?
2.Complex regs reduce it by 25%, down to 4.5 seconds. Once the shields start recharging, they take off and whatever little head start you had is mitigated and beat. Also, they can fit a single shield recharger that makes this whole conversation pointless.
3.So armor has to choose between recharge and HP, shield has to choose between HP and damage. However, what does damage matter if you can take cover and regenerate it super quick? And I guess you were hit by a grenade with your shields up, because I lost 500 armor with a grenade hitting near me while I had 0 shields. However, when I had shields and got hit to the face I lost 100 armor. Flux nades are a hard counter, they work only on shields while explosives still work on both armor and shields. Also, they have a grenade planned that wipes armor, leaving you at 0hp. Smallest amount of damage and you're dead. Also, in EVE its called shield transfers, but nobody gives up shields, it just appears from nowhere. Its just a name, it acts exactly like armor reps.
And as I said, Minmatar AR is going to counter Armor like the SMG does. |
![Delirium Inferno Delirium Inferno](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/avatars/avatar_2_male_128.jpg)
Delirium Inferno
Edoras Corporation
220
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Posted - 2013.05.12 17:54:00 -
[38] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote: 1. Yes, I have, and its slow as hell. Have you ever tried to use shields?
I stopped right here because you are insisting on something that is simply not true. Maybe if you are trying to run from the MCC all the way to the C on Manus Peak you'll notice you are getting passed up, but if are are simply within one of those bases and try to run across it you'll get everywhere within negligible time difference to a non armor tanker. Again, I'm suggesting armor tankers are more fitted for base defense rather than sprinting from base to base.
And yes, I have tried complex shield extenders. |
![Cat Merc Cat Merc](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/avatars/avatar_4_male_128.jpg)
Cat Merc
BetaMax. CRONOS.
1030
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Posted - 2013.05.12 17:56:00 -
[39] - Quote
Delirium Inferno wrote:Cat Merc wrote: 1. Yes, I have, and its slow as hell. Have you ever tried to use shields?
I stopped right here because you are insisting on something that is simply not true. And yes, I have tried complex shield extenders. Then I guess we have different standards. I could do the same and stop when you say its not much of a difference. I notice it, believe me. When I face Gallente suits they are far easier targets than Caldari ones. |
![Delirium Inferno Delirium Inferno](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/avatars/avatar_2_male_128.jpg)
Delirium Inferno
Edoras Corporation
220
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Posted - 2013.05.12 17:57:00 -
[40] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Delirium Inferno wrote:Cat Merc wrote: 1. Yes, I have, and its slow as hell. Have you ever tried to use shields?
I stopped right here because you are insisting on something that is simply not true. And yes, I have tried complex shield extenders. Then I guess we have different standards. I could do the same and stop when you say its not much of a difference. I notice it, believe me. When I face Gallente suits they are far easier targets than Caldari ones. Edited my post above a little bit if that helps. |
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![Cat Merc Cat Merc](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/avatars/avatar_4_male_128.jpg)
Cat Merc
BetaMax. CRONOS.
1031
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Posted - 2013.05.12 17:59:00 -
[41] - Quote
Delirium Inferno wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Delirium Inferno wrote:Cat Merc wrote: 1. Yes, I have, and its slow as hell. Have you ever tried to use shields?
I stopped right here because you are insisting on something that is simply not true. And yes, I have tried complex shield extenders. Then I guess we have different standards. I could do the same and stop when you say its not much of a difference. I notice it, believe me. When I face Gallente suits they are far easier targets than Caldari ones. Edited my post above a little bit if that helps. I didn't counter the revival part because its pointless. If you get revived and someone can see you, you are dead. Dead, dead, dead. Also, shields start recharging almost instantly after you get revived. |
![Delirium Inferno Delirium Inferno](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/avatars/avatar_2_male_128.jpg)
Delirium Inferno
Edoras Corporation
220
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Posted - 2013.05.12 18:10:00 -
[42] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Delirium Inferno wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Delirium Inferno wrote:Cat Merc wrote: 1. Yes, I have, and its slow as hell. Have you ever tried to use shields?
I stopped right here because you are insisting on something that is simply not true. And yes, I have tried complex shield extenders. Then I guess we have different standards. I could do the same and stop when you say its not much of a difference. I notice it, believe me. When I face Gallente suits they are far easier targets than Caldari ones. Edited my post above a little bit if that helps. I didn't counter the revival part because its pointless. If you get revived and someone can see you, you are dead. Dead, dead, dead. Also, shields start recharging almost instantly after you get revived. My edit was about the sprinting and relative distances, not revival. The revival part was in there before the edit, you must of missed it. |
![NeoWraith Acedia NeoWraith Acedia](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/avatars/avatar_3_male_128.jpg)
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
346
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Posted - 2013.05.12 18:14:00 -
[43] - Quote
undeadsoldier90 wrote:Cat Merc wrote:CCP Guy1: "Hey, we have this useless thing we really hate, its called 'Armor tanking'! (shudders)" CCP Guy2: "Heh, lets give it to the Gallente, just to troll people. You need to be close range to use the Gallente AR? Nope, you're too slow to close the distance because of Armor." CCP Guy1: "GENIUS!!!" CCP Guy2: "Oh, and lets make it so that no matter how many reps you put on your suit, the base shield regeneration is still higher!" CCP Guy1: "AWESOME! I will update the stats spreadsheet right now" CCP Guy2: "And lets make it so that if you put on 4 complex plates, you will move like a heavy, won't regenerate, and you will only gain 3 bullets worth of HP compared to 4 complex shield extenders!" CCP Guy1: "Really, you are the best!" CCP Guy1: "But what about balanced armor and regeneration?" CCP Guy2: "Don't worry about it, regeneration is slow and the HP difference is 1 bullet at best. Oh and they move like crap"
CCP Guy2: "So umm, we have this thing we REALLY love, its called shield tanking." CCP Guy1: "Oh, we should totally give that to the characters we love the most, the Caldari!" CCP Guy2: "Oh yeah, and lets make the Logi more tanky than a Gallente assault with 4 complex armor plates!" CCP Guy1: "But don't shields regenerate?" CCP Guy2: "Excatly >: D" CCP Guy 1: ">: D"
I swear, while trying to fit a Caldari character and Gallente character, this is what I imagine CCP were thinking. You stole my skit model. .... please reference me or I will be forced to take legal action. I believe that was borrowed from me in the heavy threads ![Evil](https://forums.dust514.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_evil.png) |
![Eskel Bondfree Eskel Bondfree](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/avatars/avatar_4_male_128.jpg)
Eskel Bondfree
DUST University Ivy League
97
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Posted - 2013.05.12 19:31:00 -
[44] - Quote
I think the main problem is that the nature of shield tanking is simply better suited for solo play and agressive play styles, which most people prefer. The positives of armor tanking start to shine when you run with the proper support: people running repair tools (so you can fit maximum buffer without the need for repair mods) and dropping triage nano hives. Armor tanking is also superior when defending a stationary point, which most people don't like to do (they prefer charging from one objective to the next). In other words, proper armor tanking is harder to pull off, and shields are the better choice in the majority of combat situations.
Also one thing I don't understand: why in the world does the penalty for armor plates increase when you unlock better gear? The penalty should be reduced, or at least stay the same.
Cat Merc wrote: Actually, after the first shot, the timer is on. However getting shot again doesn't reset the timer, only once the timer ends does shooting a person reset the timer.
This sounds like something CCP should definitely fix.
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