DUST Search - The Definition of OP

XeroTheBigBoss wrote:

Buster Friently wrote:

XeroTheBigBoss wrote:

I am still new to this but am learning from SoTa. You sit here and claim to know the difference between identifying what is OP and what is fine.

Buster Friently wrote:

XeroTheBigBoss wrote:

Are you guys aware of how godlike it is? Is there plans to nerf it down a little bit? It's getting to the point where people are just running around using nothing else specially in the Planetary Conquest that was suppose to bring Longevity to the game. Nobody will want to go up against full teams of guys using Rapid fire grenade launchers that are more than capable of killing with splash damage.

The gun is fine.

Your logic seems flawed.

If you actually read the post, I think you would see that my logic isn't flawed, though you may disagree.

Personally, I count you among the many AR tards that believe their past experience twiddling tiny joysticks qualifies them to comment on things that they know nothing about, like the Flaylock.

Having said that, I don't do PC. So if you are going to say something about Flaylocks and PC, perhaps you should qualify that the problem, among many, is PC. Even if this hyperbolic characterization of PC is true, which I highly doubt, PC represents such a small fraction of the playerbase and games that it is hardly worth mentioning. However, one man's voice, or child's as in your case, doesn't constitute facts. Luckily, CCP can run the numbers of which I speak and determine the OPness of anything they want, all sans forum whining by the likes of you.

Lol! I use Shotgun! Again, you are just mindless ranting for likes.

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Buster Friently Rosen Association 384	Posted - 2013.05.10 16:19:00 - [1] - Quote I see that most of the posts on the forums here relate to nerf requests of whatever the I-don't-like-it-flavor-of-the-day here, and that lots of people are calling things OP. Most of these threads, not all, but most of these threads amount to crybabies begging their mamma for a cookie. The thing is, I don't think most of you even understand the concept of OP, so I'm about to educate you. Let's dig into the concept of OP a bit here. OP, or overpowered, seems pretty straight forward as a concept, right? If something is OP, it's unbalanced, it's too good. The problem is, this is the extend of many people's logic capabilities, and they never ask the real question. What does it matter if something is OP? We can really only define the true meaning of OP by answering this question. For example, each weapon should have it's niche where it is more powerful than other, or each suit, gameplay variety, etc. Does this mean that everything is OP because they have a niche they dominate? Certainly not, but this is where many forum posters get tripped up and come to the forum asking for changes to things they don't understand. So, again, what does it matter if something is OP, or unbalanced? Well, it matters because if something is unbalanced, then players will flock to the 'exploit' the 'flavor of the month' etc. Well, why does this matter? If every player adapts to one role, or weapon, or playstyle, then that makes the game more shallow. This means that there is no longer room for people to enjoy a game in many different ways from many different perspectives. So, Point 1 - For something to be OP it must damage diversity. Ok, next obvious question. Why does it matter if diversity is damaged? Well, as is alluded to above, when diversity is damaged, the game becomes less deep. It becomes easier, it becomes less interesting, and it becomes more boring. This means that the game has less capability to attract an audience and thus, less capability to be successful. None of us want to play a stale, boring game right? Naturally devs don't want a stale boring game, because it won't keep them in business. Making a game costs a lot of money and time, and time is put into each and every detail of the game. If many of those details are being passed over because they are useless in comparison to the OPness of something else, this, ultimately affects the bottom line of the company. Making money is the entire point of the company, without money, the company will not exist, and thus the game will not exist. So, Point 2 - Diversity (balance) brings money, and money makes a game (company) successful For those who have managed to keep up, grats, we're almost done. Back to the definition of OP. Now that we know the reasoning behind why it matters if something is OP, we can finally address what it means to be OP, and thus quantifiably identify what is OP and what is not. [b]Final Point - For something to be OP, it must be out competing the other items. It must be dominating in terms of numbers, thus reducing the complexity and diversity of the game, thus making the game less desirable[/b] Now informed, you can easily determine, objectively, what is, or is not OP, by simply recording it's numerical dominance in the game. If it is only being used by a minority of players, or in a minority of play styles, it cannot be OP. Conversely, that which might be being overused and dominating the game in terms of usage, is, by definition OP. Please be aware of what OP means before you post here asking for a cookie.
Zahle Undt The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 91	Posted - 2013.05.10 16:29:00 - [2] - Quote Well put OP (pun intended).
Cat Merc BetaMax. CRONOS. 983	Posted - 2013.05.10 16:33:00 - [3] - Quote OP used logic! Its not effective at all. Sorry bro, this forum does not accept logic.
Vsor Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 8	Posted - 2013.05.10 16:34:00 - [4] - Quote OP to me is what children yell when they die in a game that allows a choice of setup. Also a TL;DR would have been nice.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 384	Posted - 2013.05.10 17:21:00 - [5] - Quote Vsor wrote: OP to me is what children yell when they die in a game that allows a choice of setup. Also a TL;DR would have been nice. I thought about a tl;dr, but I figured the bolded, underlined points should suffice even though they aren't explicitly labeled as tl;dr.
Arramakaian Eka Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 479	Posted - 2013.05.10 17:29:00 - [6] - Quote In related vein: The Ten Commandments Of Buff And Nerf Requests.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 384	Posted - 2013.05.10 17:55:00 - [7] - Quote Arramakaian Eka wrote: In related vein: The Ten Commandments Of Buff And Nerf Requests. Yes, all good points as well. Too bad CCP won't sticky these as gentle reminders
Buster Friently Rosen Association 386	Posted - 2013.05.10 20:07:00 - [8] - Quote Bump because I spent some time and thought on this.
Nguruthos IX Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 317	Posted - 2013.05.10 20:54:00 - [9] - Quote So... Forge guns?
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 631	Posted - 2013.05.10 21:03:00 - [10] - Quote And by this definition the elephant in the room is OP right now Plasma Blasters. (AR) Not because there's anything wrong with the AR, it's actually right where it needs to be in damage in range. I think the TAR should be taken from that line to become a lower ROF Caldari Guass Rifle, but I digress... Anyway, my point is, every other weapon needs to be buffed (in damage, splash radius, or range) up a bit so that it can compete with the AR. Right now, they're all just novelties.

Buster Friently Rosen Association 405	Posted - 2013.05.12 01:50:00 - [11] - Quote 13 pages down. Bump.
dabest2evadoit5 Immortal Solders of War 2	Posted - 2013.05.12 12:18:00 - [12] - Quote Duvolle Tacticle Assault Rifle = Op
Corum Irsie OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2013.05.12 12:30:00 - [13] - Quote Bacon is OP, its cruncy and delicious. Bacon needs a major nerf.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2951	Posted - 2013.05.12 12:49:00 - [14] - Quote This is OP.
BMSTUBBY KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 206	Posted - 2013.05.12 12:55:00 - [15] - Quote TL;DR CCP DEVs are OP.
microwave UDIE S.e.V.e.N. Gentlemen's Agreement 6	Posted - 2013.05.12 13:48:00 - [16] - Quote Corum Irsie wrote: Bacon is OP, its cruncy and delicious. Bacon needs a major nerf. False, subjective. Bacon should not be crunchy. Well said OP.
DoomLead Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 4	Posted - 2013.05.12 14:05:00 - [17] - Quote Well in the last build the only thing that was OP was the laser's the fix was that they should heat up faster and drop the dps by like 5hp everything else was fine. CCP really unbalanced the whole game with uprising. This build they just didn't give enough insight to bonuses which is causing the Logi to seem overpowered. I think one of the big problems, is that the bonuses for Logis, as well as Assaults, don't provide any real incentive to specialize into anything. People are running Caldari Logi as Assault+1 because they can stack on shield modifiers, whereas the Caldari bonus is a whopping 2% reduction in reload time per level for Assault. If they reworked the bonuses into things that made sense from a gameplay standpoint (nobody cares about things like reload speed, apparently), I think we would see people actually going into racial suits that fit their playstyle. As it stands, the only ones that make sense for logi, for me, is the Gallente suit, because of the bonuses to PG/CPU for equipment, meaning i can load on higher level equipment with a minimal impact on modules and weapons, that's something that really fits my style of play. You have to manage your PG/CPU, and try to bring out the best logi, which for me would be shield efficiency, and the ability to survive, over damage dealing or straight tanking. I think an easy solution that I've not seen in too many threads, because everyone is "Slot nerf!! Sidearm only logis!!" is to just balance out the skills. Give Assaults assault skills like damage bonuses, or extra weapon slots (within reason, of course),and give logis logical bonuses like bonus to repair tool rates and nanohive resupply. If the Caldari proto had a logi bonus, instead of what has basically turned into an assault bonus (that's what the community has revealed it to be), you'd be seeing more actual Caldari logis, and people would have less incentive to take advantage of developer oversight, and we wouldn't have this "Logis have too many slots" argument. Although, honestly, I think that, what, 9 module slots for some logis? That is a bit much. If anything, I think they should work from the standpoint of having X amount of slots for all suits, I'll say 12 (4 H/L/E slots), with a max of like 10 open at the highest dropsuit level. So instead of just unlocking everything at Proto, your race and specialty would be much more important. Like at Proto, the Gallente logi suit would have 4 equipment slots, but only 3 H/L, or more lorewise 2H/4L. Caldari logis could have 3 equipment slots, 4H, and 3L, something like that. But everybody wants everything, and even though something like that would provide the incentive for people to actual spec into something that fits their style, it won't happen. These are just example by the way, the slot number could be higher. Oh I like the idea of Medium slots that modify equipment, that would be another thing that would be great to add to more specialization, as well as discouraging people from just going god mode with some of these suits.
D3LTA Blitzkrieg II D3LTA FORC3 Orion Empire 1	Posted - 2013.05.12 14:12:00 - [18] - Quote Anything that doesn't have a countermeasure is OP. Balance is really delicate and so far CCP missed the mark in this build.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 826	Posted - 2013.06.30 23:05:00 - [19] - Quote Bump because clearly many of you weren't around for the original, and have no idea how to tell what is actually OP.
XeroTheBigBoss TeamPlayers EoN. 595	Posted - 2013.06.30 23:12:00 - [20] - Quote I am still new to this but am learning from SoTa. You sit here and claim to know the difference between identifying what is OP and what is fine. Buster Friently wrote: XeroTheBigBoss wrote: Are you guys aware of how godlike it is? Is there plans to nerf it down a little bit? It's getting to the point where people are just running around using nothing else specially in the Planetary Conquest that was suppose to bring Longevity to the game. Nobody will want to go up against full teams of guys using Rapid fire grenade launchers that are more than capable of killing with splash damage. The gun is fine. Your logic seems flawed.

Buster Friently Rosen Association 826	Posted - 2013.06.30 23:16:00 - [21] - Quote XeroTheBigBoss wrote: I am still new to this but am learning from SoTa. You sit here and claim to know the difference between identifying what is OP and what is fine. Buster Friently wrote: XeroTheBigBoss wrote: Are you guys aware of how godlike it is? Is there plans to nerf it down a little bit? It's getting to the point where people are just running around using nothing else specially in the Planetary Conquest that was suppose to bring Longevity to the game. Nobody will want to go up against full teams of guys using Rapid fire grenade launchers that are more than capable of killing with splash damage. The gun is fine. Your logic seems flawed. If you actually read the post, I think you would see that my logic isn't flawed, though you may disagree. Personally, I count you among the many AR tards that believe their past experience twiddling tiny joysticks qualifies them to comment on things that they know nothing about, like the Flaylock. Having said that, I don't do PC. So if you are going to say something about Flaylocks and PC, perhaps you should qualify that the problem, among many, is PC. Even if this hyperbolic characterization of PC is true, which I highly doubt, PC represents such a small fraction of the playerbase and games that it is hardly worth mentioning. However, one man's voice, or child's as in your case, doesn't constitute facts. Luckily, CCP can run the numbers of which I speak and determine the OPness of anything they want, all sans forum whining by the likes of you.
XeroTheBigBoss TeamPlayers EoN. 595	Posted - 2013.06.30 23:21:00 - [22] - Quote Buster Friently wrote: XeroTheBigBoss wrote: I am still new to this but am learning from SoTa. You sit here and claim to know the difference between identifying what is OP and what is fine. Buster Friently wrote: XeroTheBigBoss wrote: Are you guys aware of how godlike it is? Is there plans to nerf it down a little bit? It's getting to the point where people are just running around using nothing else specially in the Planetary Conquest that was suppose to bring Longevity to the game. Nobody will want to go up against full teams of guys using Rapid fire grenade launchers that are more than capable of killing with splash damage. The gun is fine. Your logic seems flawed. If you actually read the post, I think you would see that my logic isn't flawed, though you may disagree. Personally, I count you among the many AR tards that believe their past experience twiddling tiny joysticks qualifies them to comment on things that they know nothing about, like the Flaylock. Having said that, I don't do PC. So if you are going to say something about Flaylocks and PC, perhaps you should qualify that the problem, among many, is PC. Even if this hyperbolic characterization of PC is true, which I highly doubt, PC represents such a small fraction of the playerbase and games that it is hardly worth mentioning. However, one man's voice, or child's as in your case, doesn't constitute facts. Luckily, CCP can run the numbers of which I speak and determine the OPness of anything they want, all sans forum whining by the likes of you. Lol! I use Shotgun! Again, you are just mindless ranting for likes.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 826	Posted - 2013.06.30 23:23:00 - [23] - Quote XeroTheBigBoss wrote: Buster Friently wrote: XeroTheBigBoss wrote: I am still new to this but am learning from SoTa. You sit here and claim to know the difference between identifying what is OP and what is fine. Buster Friently wrote: XeroTheBigBoss wrote: Are you guys aware of how godlike it is? Is there plans to nerf it down a little bit? It's getting to the point where people are just running around using nothing else specially in the Planetary Conquest that was suppose to bring Longevity to the game. Nobody will want to go up against full teams of guys using Rapid fire grenade launchers that are more than capable of killing with splash damage. The gun is fine. Your logic seems flawed. If you actually read the post, I think you would see that my logic isn't flawed, though you may disagree. Personally, I count you among the many AR tards that believe their past experience twiddling tiny joysticks qualifies them to comment on things that they know nothing about, like the Flaylock. Having said that, I don't do PC. So if you are going to say something about Flaylocks and PC, perhaps you should qualify that the problem, among many, is PC. Even if this hyperbolic characterization of PC is true, which I highly doubt, PC represents such a small fraction of the playerbase and games that it is hardly worth mentioning. However, one man's voice, or child's as in your case, doesn't constitute facts. Luckily, CCP can run the numbers of which I speak and determine the OPness of anything they want, all sans forum whining by the likes of you. Lol! I use Shotgun! Again, you are just mindless ranting for likes. Grats. No, far from mindless or like farming. I'm just pointing out the truth around here. It's not my fault that some people like that. I assumed you play mostly AR because your lack of tactical forethought is usually a harbinger of the AR kings. I guess you're just odd that way.
XeroTheBigBoss TeamPlayers EoN. 595	Posted - 2013.06.30 23:27:00 - [24] - Quote So you are saying the Core flaylock is fine because in the PUBS it's not a problem? Real question not being trolly. "Are you stupid or something?" PC is where the competitive players are and if it is a problem here what do you think will happen when they all decide to pub? I pick you for one of those guys that just sit in MCC or hide in back of the map anytime you see a Imperfect or anything on the other side am I right? YUP! So you would never see that Core Flaylock Pistol is a problem anyway because you only play against the new players. So in other words to you the Core Flaylock Pistol "is fine" Might wanna read your own OP a few times till it rings a bell.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 826	Posted - 2013.06.30 23:33:00 - [25] - Quote XeroTheBigBoss wrote: So you are saying the Core flaylock is fine because in the PUBS it's not a problem? Real question not being trolly. "Are you stupid or something?" PC is where the competitive players are and if it is a problem here what do you think will happen when they all decide to pub? I pick you for one of those guys that just sit in MCC or hide in back of the map anytime you see a Imperfect or anything on the other side am I right? YUP! So you would never see that Core Flaylock Pistol is a problem anyway because you only play against the new players. So in other words to you the Core Flaylock Pistol "is fine" Might wanna read your own OP a few times till it rings a bell. I'll tell you what, I'll entertain this post as though you were actually being serious and not a douche bag. Question number 1) PC represents a very small userbase. If at some point it becomes a larger base, then their deserves to be more attention paid to it. Right now that isn't the case. Competitive players are not more important than anyone else. Despite their egotistical thoughts, in general, competitive players are actually less important. Right now, the pubs are where new players arrive, and new players are the issue. So, yes, the pubs are far more important for CCP to spend effort on - at this time. 2) Never MCC afkd or ran away and hid in any game in Dust ever. I play, though I may not always win. Also, I see, and engage Proto players all the time. I'm not in PC due to my Corp's size. PC isn't very important right now anyway. The Core Flaylock is fine. The kill feeds I see (non PC) do not indicate any kind of imbalance favoring the Core, or any other Flaylock. Why don't you put your money where your mouth is - show me a vid of PC that has tons of people using the Core Flaylock, and bonus points if those people aren't on your own corp.
XeroTheBigBoss TeamPlayers EoN. 595	Posted - 2013.06.30 23:48:00 - [26] - Quote I really wish I could. I happen to have one. Although it would be taken the wrong way. It's not worth the headache. There is a video though where most the kills are Flaylock pistols. You gotta just look. There will be more upcoming soon. I will favorite this thread and hopefully others would be more willing to post videos.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 828	Posted - 2013.06.30 23:50:00 - [27] - Quote XeroTheBigBoss wrote: I really wish I could. I happen to have one. Although it would be taken the wrong way. It's not worth the headache. There is a video though where most the kills are Flaylock pistols. You gotta just look. There will be more upcoming soon. I will favorite this thread and hopefully others would be more willing to post videos. As far as I'm concerned, what I've posted in the OP in this thread is the only way to determine OPness. Assuming I see convincing evidence that there's a trend in PC that is reducing diversity, and the culprit is the Core Flaylock, then I will side with you immediately that it's a problem in PC. Until then, I can only go by what I see, and in pub matches, the Flaylocks aren't dominating.
XeroTheBigBoss TeamPlayers EoN. 595	Posted - 2013.06.30 23:52:00 - [28] - Quote Buster Friently wrote: XeroTheBigBoss wrote: I really wish I could. I happen to have one. Although it would be taken the wrong way. It's not worth the headache. There is a video though where most the kills are Flaylock pistols. You gotta just look. There will be more upcoming soon. I will favorite this thread and hopefully others would be more willing to post videos. As far as I'm concerned, what I've posted in the OP in this thread is the only way to determine OPness. Assuming I see convincing evidence that there's a trend in PC that is reducing diversity, and the culprit is the Core Flaylock, then I will side with you immediately that it's a problem in PC. Until then, I can only go by what I see, and in pub matches, the Flaylocks aren't dominating. The trend is just starting. Not many videos yet but the video I have in that one alone there is a lot of flaylock kills. 50+ maybe. It's only the beginning. I will keep the community that do not see Flaylocks as a problem informed using this thread I have favorite it.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 828	Posted - 2013.06.30 23:53:00 - [29] - Quote XeroTheBigBoss wrote: Buster Friently wrote: XeroTheBigBoss wrote: I really wish I could. I happen to have one. Although it would be taken the wrong way. It's not worth the headache. There is a video though where most the kills are Flaylock pistols. You gotta just look. There will be more upcoming soon. I will favorite this thread and hopefully others would be more willing to post videos. As far as I'm concerned, what I've posted in the OP in this thread is the only way to determine OPness. Assuming I see convincing evidence that there's a trend in PC that is reducing diversity, and the culprit is the Core Flaylock, then I will side with you immediately that it's a problem in PC. Until then, I can only go by what I see, and in pub matches, the Flaylocks aren't dominating. The trend is just starting. Not many videos yet but the video I have in that one alone there is a lot of flaylock kills. 50+ maybe. It's only the beginning. I will keep the community that do not see Flaylocks as a problem informed using this thread I have favorite it. OK. I support data collection. Science and objectivity and all that.
KEROSIINI-TERO Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 510	Posted - 2013.06.30 23:59:00 - [30] - Quote Buster Friently wrote: . . ORIGINAL POST . . Very good post. I hope people read it and figure out that acronym "OP" really means something over the top. My definition of OP is if the selection to use something is a "no-brainer" then it most likely is OP. Buster gets my +1 for this, However, I disagree on the definition of "if something is very very commonly seen on the field it is OP". I'd imagine a general purpose weapon like AR is okay if is most common weapon (provided it's killing power is balanced to others)



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