DUST Search - Pt 2: The massive unbalance that is Ambush -Tanks

DJINN leukoplast wrote:

Cosgar wrote:

But players will still have the opportunity to avoid them and they'll never learn to take out HAV. Would you want one of those scrubs in your corp if they didn't spec into some kind of AV or they don't know how to blow one up?

But really, why would it matter? If somebody want's to forfeit any experience taking them out, then why should they be stopped? Why shouldn't a player speced into infantry vs infantry be able to enjoy that aspect? Ambush isn't designed for vehicles, especially tanks. People generally play ambush to enjoy infantry vs infantry. People generally play skirmish to enjoy teamwork, squads and vehicle use (which is what that mode was designed for).

As an assault player that had to take on a role of AV (since heavies weren't fulfilling that role... which they were designed for BTW) I resent the fact that I have to multitask and deal with vehicles as well.

Players in this game are always complaining about the all-in-one aspect, and that we should be specific to our role. Well, my role as an assault player it to take out other infantry players, not vehicles. And the small map ambush design is for infantry vs infantry. Tanks are an unnatural element in that mode that severely offset it.

Also a decent recruiter will recruit as needed, and if the player has no experience taking out tanks, then either they are denied or placed in a position that doesn't require them to be AV. Unless you are implying that every class role in the game should be required to be specd into AV? What about snipers?

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DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 395	Posted - 2013.05.06 06:55:00 - [1] - Quote This is going to be a multi-part suggestion/feedback based on balancing Ambush. There will be three topics in total that will almost completely balance ambush to pure perfection. Part 1 - https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=751260& Ambush tanks Tanks in ambush, a love-hate relationship for sure. Love them when they are on our team, hate them when they are on the other. In skirmish tanks are expected and part of the intended gameplay, but for ambush they are an abomination of imbalance. Granted tankers who have little experience and/or use weak tanks are somewhat "easy" to take out given the right AV players and team/map situation. But tankers who know what they are doing, even remotely, mixed with a team that isn't super terri-bad is a giant thorn in the side of ambush. I run proto swarms at swarm proficiently level 3 with three complex damage mods, and even if I can manage do some good damage, all the tanker has to do is back up a little and they are now completely out of my view. Which requires me to run all the way around the map to get another shot. And again, even if I get that shot, they simply move a tiny bit again and rinse and repeat. Of course this is all taking into consideration the tank wasn't able to kill me, or the none of the enemy players were able to either (as an AV assault, I am a glass cannon almost 100% vulnerable to infantry players). Argument 1: "Tanks are so expensive and strong, why do you think you should be able to single handily take them on with a ~100k suit? " Well three reasons, first being that even if my team has several AV players of various form (AV nades, swarms, forge) these decent tankers use the same technique, run and hide behind their team and become inaccessible to AV. Second being, unless this game is p2w, no amount of ISK, AUR or SP should guarantee your survival. If I am highly speced into AV, I should be able to do massive damage, or take out the tank completely. Third, I am talking about solo playing, the chances that a team that I randomly land on is going to be speced into AV is slim to none. Most players will just get slaughtered by the tank repeatedly, or try to bring in some militia garbage that won't even scratch the surface of the tank. Tanks in ambush are wrong on so many levels, and they absolutely destroy it. Mix a decent tanker with squads as well, this is about the worst situation a solo player, like myself, can run into in ambush. OB's come quickly and easily, then it's a matter of spawn farming making it all but impossible for the enemy team to do anything about the tank. Then of course there is the situation in which the enemy team calls in multiple tanks (who are often times part of the same squad or group of players). Solution? You guessed it, along with part 1 of my threads, adding into having an ambush mode with no squads, it should also include no vehicles as well (LAV's arent necessarily a huge problem, but they still don't belong in ambush). Players play ambush to fight infantry, not to deal with tanks or getting run over by LAV's. I'll end this topic with this video that lowratehitman created today, he was riding shotgun in a tank as a squad leader... this video perfectly demonstrates the ridiculousness of tanks and squads in ambush. It about sums up most of my experiences vs tanks in ambush. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVhtqCMwn8o
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 489	Posted - 2013.05.06 06:57:00 - [2] - Quote More tank butthurt. HAV a heart man!
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 325	Posted - 2013.05.06 07:04:00 - [3] - Quote tanks are getting nerfed, hard. again because somehow skilling into a HAV is being to good and to much to beat non-skill MLT swarms and HMG users..
Godin Thekiller Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack 51	Posted - 2013.05.06 07:07:00 - [4] - Quote Stop whining because you can't AV properly. I've two shotted HAV's with both PROTO swarms and nades. I've also have been 4 shotted in a very quick succession. How about you try and get closer? Oh wait, the other team is doing it's job and covering it. I really don't see a problem with it, and the people who's tried using a HAV doesn't either; they just pull out AV and kill them. Peace, Godin
DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 395	Posted - 2013.05.06 07:09:00 - [5] - Quote Cosgar wrote: More tank butthurt. HAV a heart man! Not asking for tanks to be nerfed (although they could use a speed nerf TBH), I am asking that the players have a choice to play in ambush without tanks. What's wrong with that?
Godin Thekiller Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack 51	Posted - 2013.05.06 07:17:00 - [6] - Quote HA! of course, this guy has never used a HAV before. I doubt he hasn't been inside one for more than a minute, or talked to the pilots who use them. NO. Peace, Godin
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 490	Posted - 2013.05.06 07:19:00 - [7] - Quote DJINN leukoplast wrote: Cosgar wrote: More tank butthurt. HAV a heart man! Not asking for tanks to be nerfed (although they could use a speed nerf TBH), I am asking that the players have a choice to play in ambush without tanks. What's wrong with that? Because it's taking away from the sandbox experience that this game offers. If you want to learn how to pop vehicles, you're going to have to fight them, not avoid them. If you get your way and there's infantry only modes, how many people do you think are going to ignore AV again? Then when they do run into a vehicle, they'll deem it as OP because they got to ignore its effective counter, AV.
Zero Harpuia WarRavens Orion Empire 430	Posted - 2013.05.06 07:21:00 - [8] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: HA! of course, this guy has never used a HAV before. I doubt he hasn't been inside one for more than a minute, or talked to the pilots who use them. NO. Peace, Godin You do realize that the DJINN are some of the more notorious tankers, right? Not sure which are the pilots myself, but I'm sure he has decent experience on both sides of the issue.
Godin Thekiller Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack 51	Posted - 2013.05.06 07:32:00 - [9] - Quote Zero Harpuia wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: HA! of course, this guy has never used a HAV before. I doubt he hasn't been inside one for more than a minute, or talked to the pilots who use them. NO. Peace, Godin You do realize that the DJINN are some of the more notorious tankers, right? Not sure which are the pilots myself, but I'm sure he has decent experience on both sides of the issue. From my year and 4 months of play, I've yet to see a DJUNN talk good nor even drive a HAV. So, I doubt it. Peace, Godin
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 490	Posted - 2013.05.06 07:32:00 - [10] - Quote CCP has made it so easy to pop tanks that you don't even have to spec into a light weapon anymore to do it. Just carry some OP proto AV 'nades, chuck em' at anything with wheels or treads and go about your overrated infantry battles.

DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 396	Posted - 2013.05.06 07:36:00 - [11] - Quote lol, I wanted to get in a few last minuets with this build before servers went down, and this what I saw coming into my very first ambush of the night. http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/Leukotic/tank_lolz1_zps3f560773.png Yup, 5 tankers, and in the bowl map to boot (although the one being brought in with the bolas blew up, because the drunkard pilot crashed while deploying it )
Vickers S Grunt Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 72	Posted - 2013.05.06 07:38:00 - [12] - Quote Duh tanks are UP have u not read the forum ??
Zero Harpuia WarRavens Orion Empire 431	Posted - 2013.05.06 07:44:00 - [13] - Quote DJINN leukoplast wrote: lol, I wanted to get in a few last minuets with this build before servers went down, and this what I saw coming into my very first ambush of the night. http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/Leukotic/tank_lolz1_zps3f560773.png Yup, 5 tankers, and in the bowl map to boot (although the one being brought in with the bolas blew up, because the drunkard pilot crashed while deploying it ) kee-ripes. It's like every corp match distilled into a screenshot. So... beautiful. Persoanlly, I just think vehicles should be removed from Ambush because there is no reliable manner if class change beyond suicide in most Ambush matches, so if a tank is called in you have to suffer a death, a random spawn, and then finding and dealing with the vehicle while wearing a 'free 50 WP' sign.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 491	Posted - 2013.05.06 07:46:00 - [14] - Quote DJINN leukoplast wrote: Cosgar wrote: More tank butthurt. HAV a heart man! Not asking for tanks to be nerfed (although they could use a speed nerf TBH), I am asking that the players have a choice to play in ambush without tanks. What's wrong with that? Quoted to put contradiction on display. DJINN leukoplast wrote: lol, I wanted to get in a few last minuets with this build before servers went down, and this what I saw coming into my very first ambush of the night. http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/Leukotic/tank_lolz1_zps3f560773.png Yup, 5 tankers, and in the bowl map to boot (although the one being brought in with the bolas blew up, because the drunkard pilot crashed while deploying it ) http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/Leukotic/lolz_bolas1_zps44472860.png This game needs more vehicles so that other players can see this isn't just another run and gun twitch shooter.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 325	Posted - 2013.05.06 07:46:00 - [15] - Quote Cosgar wrote: CCP has made it so easy to pop tanks that you don't even have to spec into a light weapon anymore to do it. Just carry some OP proto AV 'nades, chuck em' at anything with wheels or treads and go about your overrated infantry battles. AV NADES the only av equipment infantry ever need to carry, why, they have the high damage per hit and damage per second on vehicles and they seek out vehicles so you can throw them away from the vehicle and the still hit so no need to spec into any AV weapon because locus and AV are in the same skill something you'll need to spec into anyways.
DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 396	Posted - 2013.05.06 08:01:00 - [16] - Quote Cosgar wrote: DJINN leukoplast wrote: Cosgar wrote: More tank butthurt. HAV a heart man! Not asking for tanks to be nerfed (although they could use a speed nerf TBH), I am asking that the players have a choice to play in ambush without tanks. What's wrong with that? Because it's taking away from the sandbox experience that this game offers. If you want to learn how to pop vehicles, you're going to have to fight them, not avoid them. If you get your way and there's infantry only modes, how many people do you think are going to ignore AV again? Then when they do run into a vehicle, they'll deem it as OP because they got to ignore its effective counter, AV. Well if nobody wants to go up against tanks, then what does that say about their balance? If tanks were balanced and easily manageable with AV, then it wouldn't be an issue playing against them, right? Its not as if skirmish won't have tanks, or OMS. Plenty of people like playing those modes, and especially since FW/PC will be based on skirmish, players won't be able to avoid them all the time, only when they don't feel like dealing with them and want some good ol' infantry PvP. Zero Harpuia wrote: DJINN leukoplast wrote: lol, I wanted to get in a few last minuets with this build before servers went down, and this what I saw coming into my very first ambush of the night. http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/Leukotic/tank_lolz1_zps3f560773.png Yup, 5 tankers, and in the bowl map to boot (although the one being brought in with the bolas blew up, because the drunkard pilot crashed while deploying it ) kee-ripes. It's like every corp match distilled into a screenshot. So... beautiful. Persoanlly, I just think vehicles should be removed from Ambush because there is no reliable manner if class change beyond suicide in most Ambush matches, so if a tank is called in you have to suffer a death, a random spawn, and then finding and dealing with the vehicle while wearing a 'free 50 WP' sign. +1, pure win post right there! I totally spaced on that as an argument point for a no tank ambush mode, as non-OMS ambush doesn't any supply depots, which is a huge deal when tanks come in when everybody is already situated as infantry vs infantry. The tank pretty much gets a whole bunch of freebies before people start getting frustrated and bringing in some attempt of AV (and managing to survive with that AV loadout to do some sort of damage to the tank).
Zero Harpuia WarRavens Orion Empire 432	Posted - 2013.05.06 08:13:00 - [17] - Quote Cosgar wrote: DJINN leukoplast wrote: Cosgar wrote: More tank butthurt. HAV a heart man! Not asking for tanks to be nerfed (although they could use a speed nerf TBH), I am asking that the players have a choice to play in ambush without tanks. What's wrong with that? Quoted to put contradiction on display. DJINN leukoplast wrote: lol, I wanted to get in a few last minuets with this build before servers went down, and this what I saw coming into my very first ambush of the night. http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/Leukotic/tank_lolz1_zps3f560773.png Yup, 5 tankers, and in the bowl map to boot (although the one being brought in with the bolas blew up, because the drunkard pilot crashed while deploying it ) http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/Leukotic/lolz_bolas1_zps44472860.png This game needs more vehicles so that other players can see this isn't just another run and gun twitch shooter. It isn't a contradiction, he simply points out that, while he's thinking about it since you forded the subject, they could use a nerf. Not that he asked for one. Simple reading comprehension thing there, had to say something. Now, constructive... just curious on how more vehicles makes something less about run'n'gun twitch shooting? The vehicles allow you to get from shooting area A to B faster, or they shoot people. There needs to be a decent limiter on vehicles, not so much their individual power or a limited slot system, but something to stem the tide. In other shooters with vehicles, you either have a limited number spawning about the map, like in a Halo title, or you have cooldown timers and inmatch resource limiters, such as Planetside 2. Also, while mentioning PS2, they tend to have far bigger maps to facilitate the need for faster transport, and many areas where the vehicles can't get to, limiting their effectiveness to outer defensive clearing and suppression. Finally, the issue of ammo, as DUST vehicles have an infinite supply. These tanks can destroy all the supply points on a map to prevent swaps to and from AV and stroll merrily about for the rest of the ambush. With nothing limiting the HAV but the wallet of the player (and lets be honest, ISK is no object to any corp that gives a damn), ergo the rush to nerf it. Just trimming it from Ambush, or at least making a new vehicle-free Ambush like there is a Random-crap-falling-from-the-sky free version, makes sense. What idiot tries to ambush someone via a vehicle visible from tactical satellite radar?
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 493	Posted - 2013.05.06 08:13:00 - [18] - Quote DJINN leukoplast wrote: Cosgar wrote: DJINN leukoplast wrote: Cosgar wrote: More tank butthurt. HAV a heart man! Not asking for tanks to be nerfed (although they could use a speed nerf TBH), I am asking that the players have a choice to play in ambush without tanks. What's wrong with that? Because it's taking away from the sandbox experience that this game offers. If you want to learn how to pop vehicles, you're going to have to fight them, not avoid them. If you get your way and there's infantry only modes, how many people do you think are going to ignore AV again? Then when they do run into a vehicle, they'll deem it as OP because they got to ignore its effective counter, AV. Well if nobody wants to go up against tanks, then what does that say about their balance? If tanks were balanced and easily manageable with AV, then it wouldn't be an issue playing against them, right? Its not as if skirmish won't have tanks, or OMS. Plenty of people like playing those modes, and especially since FW/PC will be based on skirmish, players won't be able to avoid them all the time, only when they don't feel like dealing with them and want some good ol' infantry PvP. But players will still have the opportunity to avoid them and they'll never learn to take out HAV. Would you want one of those scrubs in your corp if they didn't spec into some kind of AV or they don't know how to blow one up?
DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 396	Posted - 2013.05.06 08:56:00 - [19] - Quote Cosgar wrote: But players will still have the opportunity to avoid them and they'll never learn to take out HAV. Would you want one of those scrubs in your corp if they didn't spec into some kind of AV or they don't know how to blow one up? But really, why would it matter? If somebody want's to forfeit any experience taking them out, then why should they be stopped? Why shouldn't a player speced into infantry vs infantry be able to enjoy that aspect? Ambush isn't designed for vehicles, especially tanks. People generally play ambush to enjoy infantry vs infantry. People generally play skirmish to enjoy teamwork, squads and vehicle use (which is what that mode was designed for). As an assault player that had to take on a role of AV (since heavies weren't fulfilling that role... which they were designed for BTW) I resent the fact that I have to multitask and deal with vehicles as well. Players in this game are always complaining about the all-in-one aspect, and that we should be specific to our role. Well, my role as an assault player it to take out other infantry players, not vehicles. And the small map ambush design is for infantry vs infantry. Tanks are an unnatural element in that mode that severely offset it. Also a decent recruiter will recruit as needed, and if the player has no experience taking out tanks, then either they are denied or placed in a position that doesn't require them to be AV. Unless you are implying that every class role in the game should be required to be specd into AV? What about snipers?
KalOfTheRathi Talon Strike Force LTD Orion Empire 403	Posted - 2013.05.06 08:57:00 - [20] - Quote So, is bad timing your specialty? Different game in a few hours. Tanks are toast.

Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 495	Posted - 2013.05.06 09:03:00 - [21] - Quote KalOfTheRathi wrote: So, is bad timing your specialty? Different game in a few hours. Tanks are toast. I don't think he cares. Not sure if trolling, or just bored
DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 396	Posted - 2013.05.06 09:20:00 - [22] - Quote KalOfTheRathi wrote: So, is bad timing your specialty? Different game in a few hours. Tanks are toast. Until we play Uprising, we won't know for sure. But I seriously doubt tankers are just going to roll over and die because they temporarily lost their proto variants. They also now have stronger/better missile turrets (and possibly one or two other buffs that I read about in patch notes). And as we have all likely experienced from Codex, missile turrets can be beast. Tankers now (well in Chromosome) use blasters because missile turrets were nerfed so much, but now that they are closer to what they were before, they are likely to make a strong comeback.
Godin Thekiller Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack 53	Posted - 2013.05.06 09:23:00 - [23] - Quote DJINN leukoplast wrote: Cosgar wrote: But players will still have the opportunity to avoid them and they'll never learn to take out HAV. Would you want one of those scrubs in your corp if they didn't spec into some kind of AV or they don't know how to blow one up? But really, why would it matter? If somebody want's to forfeit any experience taking them out, then why should they be stopped? Why shouldn't a player speced into infantry vs infantry be able to enjoy that aspect? Ambush isn't designed for vehicles, especially tanks. People generally play ambush to enjoy infantry vs infantry. People generally play skirmish to enjoy teamwork, squads and vehicle use (which is what that mode was designed for). As an assault player that had to take on a role of AV (since heavies weren't fulfilling that role... which they were designed for BTW) I resent the fact that I have to multitask and deal with vehicles as well. Players in this game are always complaining about the all-in-one aspect, and that we should be specific to our role. Well, my role as an assault player it to take out other infantry players, not vehicles. And the small map ambush design is for infantry vs infantry. Tanks are an unnatural element in that mode that severely offset it. Also a decent recruiter will recruit as needed, and if the player has no experience taking out tanks, then either they are denied or placed in a position that doesn't require them to be AV. Unless you are implying that every class role in the game should be required to be specd into AV? What about snipers? 1: There is no Sniper Dropsuit frame; they're Scout suits. two different things. 2: So I skilled solely, for the most part, to the best of my ability, to have the best HAV's I can possibly make, even though they've been nerfed to ****, yet, I'm not allowed to use the only thing I skilled for, or play on matches where AV can hide eaiser? Or, use dropsuits that I haven't been skilled for? Actually, I will not. You sir, made me think less highly of the DJINN kind. Peace, Godin
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 442	Posted - 2013.05.06 09:32:00 - [24] - Quote I took my HAV into ambush yday for the 1st time in weeks I smashed the entire enemy team and it felt really good I may continue to do this in Uprising as payback Enjoy
DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 396	Posted - 2013.05.06 09:47:00 - [25] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: 1: There is no Sniper Dropsuit frame; they're Scout suits. two different things. 2: So I skilled solely, for the most part, to the best of my ability, to have the best HAV's I can possibly make, even though they've been nerfed to ****, yet, I'm not allowed to use the only thing I skilled for, or play on matches where AV can hide eaiser? Or, use dropsuits that I haven't been skilled for? Actually, I will not. You sir, made me think less highly of the DJINN kind. Peace, Godin So what about scouts that like to run around with AR's? Should they be forced to take on tanks too? Shotgunners? As for your second paragraph, no idea what you are trying to say. But nobody is stopping you from playing all the other modes which allow tanks. Unless you are implying that tankers are so selfish that they don't want any gamemode that allows players who aren't AV speced (or want to deal with AV) to have fun without dealing with enemy tanks?
DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 396	Posted - 2013.05.06 09:48:00 - [26] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: I took my HAV into ambush yday for the 1st time in weeks I smashed the entire enemy team and it felt really good I may continue to do this in Uprising as payback Enjoy Straight from the horses mouth
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1013	Posted - 2013.05.06 09:51:00 - [27] - Quote I took my AR into ambush yday for the 100th time I smashed the entire team and it felt really good I may continue to do this in Uprising as 30/0 is fun Enjoy
DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 396	Posted - 2013.05.06 09:57:00 - [28] - Quote Jason Pearson wrote: I took my AR into ambush yday for the 100th time I smashed the entire team and it felt really good I may continue to do this in Uprising as 30/0 is fun Enjoy So why bother with a tank? Unless you like going 40-0 and 20x the WP's
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1013	Posted - 2013.05.06 10:00:00 - [29] - Quote DJINN leukoplast wrote: Jason Pearson wrote: I took my AR into ambush yday for the 100th time I smashed the entire team and it felt really good I may continue to do this in Uprising as 30/0 is fun Enjoy So why bother with a tank? Unless you like going 40-0 and 20x the WP's Because tanking is my passion. 20x the WPs? xD are you dumb? You don't get 20x the WP, you can get double the WP if you decide to kill every bolas in the game (buff bolas plz), never seen anyone hit over the 6k mark yet, definitely seen Infantry with 3k WP. But really, I like spending 2.3 mil and risking it every game, it's a risk that gives me a reason to play.
DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 396	Posted - 2013.05.06 10:36:00 - [30] - Quote Jason Pearson wrote: Because tanking is my passion. 20x the WPs? xD are you dumb? You don't get 20x the WP, you can get double the WP if you decide to kill every bolas in the game (buff bolas plz), never seen anyone hit over the 6k mark yet, definitely seen Infantry with 3k WP. But really, I like spending 2.3 mil and risking it every game, it's a risk that gives me a reason to play. Oh I'm sorry, did I exaggerate a bit? My passion is infantry vs infantry, so why can't I enjoy that too without having a tank ruin an ambush match for me? Using my assault AV fit reaps little rewards, mostly loss. Unless I can manage to take out several tanks/vehicles, usually all I do is tickle tanks all match long and end up getting killed by infantry slayers, then spawning and getting killed again because my team is getting steamrolled.. rinse and repeat. I get a garbage payout, garbage SP, and usually take a hit on my KDR (since I can't kill squat with swarms and crappy sidearm vs dedicated infantry vs infantry players). Apparently tankers get what they want, so why can't we infantry vs infantry players get a small break? Why would you be against an ambush mode without tanks?



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