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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
397
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Posted - 2013.04.19 14:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
Before anyone says anything, the number 76 was chosen arbitrarily. I don't think I've have 76 Controversial Ideas...
More like a hundred and fifty, but many remained un-posted.
Now onto the controversy!
CCP is doing many things right in this game. Let me be the first to say that. They are doing things right. But I'm really starting to feel they're putting too much EVE in some places, and not enough EVE in others.
In particular, this applies to the Weapons. Where our choices are limited by a 'hard point' system.
This works in EVE, but for a allegedly fully customisable game like DUST 514, it seriously hampers its credibility to claim such a title.
The way I look at it, We shouldn't be limited to a Single 'Main Weapon' and a Sidearm. This isn't the way even current armed forces operate.
I believe that we should have a 'Primary' and 'Secondary' Weapon System that can fit any weapons we want in there (with limitations applying to Heavy Weapons as per Suit).
CCP is making Clone Count a resources, encouraging people to stay alive, over simply throwing away their lives to no purpose... a noble goal, but in reality, the current game doesn't support this. Why? Because if I switch to a Swarm Launcher Fit, Even with either a Sub Machine gun or Pistol, with Locus Grenades, my combat ability Vs. Infantry is severely limited, and being unable to match any of my opponents' 'Main Weapons' in any capacity, means I'm less likely to put my Swarm Launcher to use.
This is the biggest fault in an allegedly 'full customizable' system. You cannot be equally effective in multiple roles.
I chose Anti-Vehicle at the top, but there are many other situations where this would 'balance' out the game.
Counter Sniping - Carrying an Sniper Rifle in addition to your typically AR Combat Lead-out would mean that you have the means to deal with snipers, without switching your entire fit to something unsuitable for close range combat, or even medium range.
Corner SHOTGUN! - Throwing down with a hostile around a corner, you're firing bursts from your Assault Rifle, you fall back... wounded, and the enemy presses the attack. Behind the wall, you switch out to your Shotgun, you see the whites of his eyes and BLAM!
This ability to tactically alter yourself to the situation is what DUST is lacking.
So CCP, I implore you on behalf of myself and many others. Don't place limitations like this on us. And don't regress us back to single-weapon load outs that are 2 dimensional, lacking depth. You're doing so many things right, learn what almost every other modern warfare FPS has gotten right. Weapon Load outs should be freeform, and not limited.
Heavy Suits should still be able to carry Heavy Weapons exclusively, while Logistics should also be limited to their current 1 weapon. This would bring a diversity based on flavour, as well as allow us the ability to fit GP Suits that can adapt to situations.
In EVE, you adapt to the changes around you, or you lose your ship. The current system means we CAN'T adapt to counter a situation. |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
713
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Posted - 2013.04.19 14:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
But limitations force players to diversify and specialize, which makes working in teams not only encourage, but a necessity. By forcing people to give up something to gain something, it forces people to rely on one another instead of being a jack-of-all-trades.
Want to take out that tank? You need to give up some anti infantry to gain anti vehicle, or have your corp's AV guy jump in.
You want to take out that sniper? You need to give up close range to gain long range, or have you corp's sniper jump in.
You want to deal with those CQC enemies? You need to give up long range to gain close range, or have your corp's shotgunner jump in.
"You cannot be equally effective in multiple roles." That is working as intended, utterly and completely. You can quote real world military all you like, but at the end of the day we're all in Iron Man suits with Laser guns killing each other on another planet. Real world has some relevance, but should never be considered a baseline for a game like this.
So in short I have to disagree with you, you call it limitation, I call it forced diversification, and that's a really really good thing. Team combat should require a mix of roles, and I think Dust has done a fantastic job at meeting that end. |
Daedric Lothar
Onslaught Inc
258
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Posted - 2013.04.19 14:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
I would like to see you join some Armed Forces group where you can walk out with a assault rifle, sniper rifle, shotgun, missile launcher, pistol and a SMG strapped to your back.
Tell me how that goes. |
The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
397
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Posted - 2013.04.19 14:42:00 -
[4] - Quote
Daedric Lothar wrote:I would like to see you join some Armed Forces group where you can walk out with a assault rifle, sniper rifle, shotgun, missile launcher, pistol and a SMG strapped to your back.
Tell me how that goes.
2 Weapons... AR + Rocket Launcher, or SMG + Pistol....
My father served in the Airforce, my Uncle still serves in the Army.. He carries His AUSTEYR, Mortar and Pistol along with a 50kg Backpack when deployed.
The marksman in his unit carries his AUSTEYR, Pistol, and a Scoped Sniper Rifle.
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
397
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 14:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:But limitations force players to diversify and specialize, which makes working in teams not only encourage, but a necessity. By forcing people to give up something to gain something, it forces people to rely on one another instead of being a jack-of-all-trades.
Want to take out that tank? You need to give up some anti infantry to gain anti vehicle, or have your corp's AV guy jump in.
You want to take out that sniper? You need to give up close range to gain long range, or have you corp's sniper jump in.
You want to deal with those CQC enemies? You need to give up long range to gain close range, or have your corp's shotgunner jump in.
"You cannot be equally effective in multiple roles." That is working as intended, utterly and completely. You can quote real world military all you like, but at the end of the day we're all in Iron Man suits with Laser guns killing each other on another planet. Real world has some relevance, but should never be considered a baseline for a game like this.
So in short I have to disagree with you, you call it limitation, I call it forced diversification, and that's a really really good thing. Team combat should require a mix of roles, and I think Dust has done a fantastic job at meeting that end.
DIVERSIFY
to make diverse, as in form or character; give variety or diversity to; variegate.
you would stil have teamwork requirements. You can carry 2 weapons. which means, 1 would likely go CQC (shotgun) with AR, or one Counter-sniper with SR, the 3rd may go AV with a Swarm launcher.. your 4th is Logistics, so he's got his Mass Driver (Or other weapon). |
Daedric Lothar
Onslaught Inc
258
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Posted - 2013.04.19 14:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
The Black Jackal wrote:Daedric Lothar wrote:I would like to see you join some Armed Forces group where you can walk out with a assault rifle, sniper rifle, shotgun, missile launcher, pistol and a SMG strapped to your back.
Tell me how that goes. 2 Weapons... AR + Rocket Launcher, or SMG + Pistol.... My father served in the Airforce, my Uncle still serves in the Army.. He carries His AUSTEYR, Mortar and Pistol along with a 50kg Backpack when deployed. The marksman in his unit carries his AUSTEYR, Pistol, and a Scoped Sniper Rifle.
Well, I see a Mortar as equipment more then a weapon, So thats still really 2 weapons.
However I can see carrying a heavy weapon, a AR and a pistol. I'm sure assault will eventually get 2 primaries.
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
397
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 15:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Daedric Lothar wrote:The Black Jackal wrote:Daedric Lothar wrote:I would like to see you join some Armed Forces group where you can walk out with a assault rifle, sniper rifle, shotgun, missile launcher, pistol and a SMG strapped to your back.
Tell me how that goes. 2 Weapons... AR + Rocket Launcher, or SMG + Pistol.... My father served in the Airforce, my Uncle still serves in the Army.. He carries His AUSTEYR, Mortar and Pistol along with a 50kg Backpack when deployed. The marksman in his unit carries his AUSTEYR, Pistol, and a Scoped Sniper Rifle. Well, I see a Mortar as equipment more then a weapon, So thats still really 2 weapons. However I can see carrying a heavy weapon, a AR and a pistol. I'm sure assault will eventually get 2 primaries.
That's partly it, but also things like Secondary Shotgun, or Bazooka.. those can be counted as weapons. And often Soldiers in AUS armed forces will carry a secondary CQC weapon for Urban Combat. In addition to their pistols. |
Daedric Lothar
Onslaught Inc
258
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Posted - 2013.04.19 15:16:00 -
[8] - Quote
The Black Jackal wrote: That's partly it, but also things like Secondary Shotgun, or Bazooka.. those can be counted as weapons. And often Soldiers in AUS armed forces will carry a secondary CQC weapon for Urban Combat. In addition to their pistols.
Honestly I think you have it right that you should carry whatever you want. In most Armed Forces, they pay to equip you so running out with so much weaponry would typically be frowned on, but I know many allow you to bring extra weapons you pay for, and since we alone pay for our weapons in EVE, might as well just add new stats known as Weight and Moblity and let the games begin.
The more weapons you carry the less Agile you are and your fitting is invalid if you go over weight. Each suit has a different weight value. |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
713
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 03:31:00 -
[9] - Quote
Daedric Lothar wrote:[quote=The Black Jackal] Each suit has a different weight value.
.....we do. It's called Powergrid and CPU. |
The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
401
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Posted - 2013.04.20 11:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
Powergrid and CPU would definetly force you to sacrifice something to fit 2 Light weapons (unless you take into account the sub-standard Specialist Variants. Even then you'd be trading a sub-par weapon for your 'Sidearm'
But it would still require teamwork, but enable people to utilise adaptive tactics.
My squad line-up under this method would likely cosist of.
Skirmisher / CQC - Assault Rifle with Shotgun Combination.
Sniper / Recon - Sniper Rifle / Assault Rifle
AV Specialist (Heavy) - Forge Gun / Assault Rifle
AV Specialist (Assault) - Swarm Launcher / Assault Rifle
Renegade Build - Pistol / Shotgun (Possible now, but hopefully with a greater ammo reserve for the Pistol)
Dropship Pilot |
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Galrick M'kron
Sand Mercenary Corps Inc.
63
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Posted - 2013.04.20 13:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
Sorry, but I don't think this is a good idea. Having two light weapons should be restricted to suits such as the Black Eagle scout. The PG/CPU requirements just aren't enough to get in the way of an OP fit. In-Lore, your hardpoints could be explained as a suit's ability to interface and aim-assist (project a crosshair for) one light weapon and one sidearm. Maybe it's tech limitations. |
Cyzad4
Blackfish Corp.
0
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Posted - 2013.04.20 13:15:00 -
[12] - Quote
interesting idea but it would seriously mess w snipers and scout suits.
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
409
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Posted - 2013.04.20 14:11:00 -
[13] - Quote
Galrick M'kron wrote:Sorry, but I don't think this is a good idea. Having two light weapons should be restricted to suits such as the Black Eagle scout. The PG/CPU requirements just aren't enough to get in the way of an OP fit. In-Lore, your hardpoints could be explained as a suit's ability to interface and aim-assist (project a crosshair for) one light weapon and one sidearm. Maybe it's tech limitations.
The point is this is one thing where CCP is seemingly trying to be different when they shouldn't be.
Most other FPS games out, even other FPS MMOs allow you to carry 2 Standard Weapons. Switching between the weapons is about tactics.
OP fit? I don't think there would be such a thing. Define OP? Over-Powered is something that fit can do better than EVERYTHING else.
Lasers are OP on there own? So... giving that guy an Assault Rifle makes him more OP? I don't think so. It gives him options to deal with Closer Range Targets, but so would a pistol or SMG. (SMG btw, should be a light weapon, not a sidearm.)
PG Limitations will inhibit Massive Tanks and 2 Light weapons. CPU and PG requirements for Light Weapons are roughly double what a Sidearm is.
This, in my opinion, is too much EVE in a genre that is already defined by the 'right' method of customization. They're trying in this case, reinvent the wheel. While the other wheels still roll well, and really have no issues about them.
And in-lore... these guys build spaceships for a human mind to control thousands of different systems at once. They can traverse stars at Faster than Light Speeds. But their little computer can't handle reticles for more than 1 light gun and 1 sidearm? Please.
Add to that, the standard SMG and Pistols don't have computerised sights, nor doe the Assault Rifles, Mass Drivers etc. |
Ops Fox
ZionTCD
211
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Posted - 2013.04.20 19:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
I think specializing into a certain role and working with your team to balance your specialization out is much better for dust. Dust is not a game about logging in for a quick match or two its about showing up for a corps ops to take a new district and being a member of a player created and controlled military. That specialization and limitation of one main weapon makes your work with your one weapon and master it while your buddies master their. In short Dust needs the specific specialization between members and the limitation of one role for a suit it works for dust alot better than it does for other games.
however I could see some suits having two light slots
I would also like to see more side arm options so people could have sub specialization, like what you want but rather than bring out a shotgun for cqc they bring out a SMG which is what they do right now. I would like to see more side arms option for support AV, Support scouting. |
Dominus Fatali
Nox Aeterna Security
66
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Posted - 2013.04.20 21:29:00 -
[15] - Quote
Make a high-powered module allowing the user to equip multiple light weapons, at the cost of carried ammunition and/or an equipment slot. |
The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
418
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 06:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
The idea is to make each weapon a viable tactical option, and push the utility of the 'classes'.
You may drop your second light weapon for a Sidearm in favour of a better Equipment Item.. since you'd be limited on CPU / PG.
But the idea is to allow mainlining along a path, without completely destroying you ability to adapt to a situation short of changing your entire fit.
I'm sorry CCP, but this is one area where you shouldn't be so different. Allow us to Customise our fits more, with sensible restrictions (ie. Heavy Weapons on Heavy Suits) etc. |
Charlotte O'Dell
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
150
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Posted - 2013.04.27 08:14:00 -
[17] - Quote
No |
The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
421
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 13:03:00 -
[18] - Quote
Charlotte O'Dell wrote:No
Care to elaborate?
We have a single limited BPC Suit (for those who got some) that wields a Shotgun and an Assault Rifle... this is a scout frame.
We are getting in the future a 'Heavy Frame' that sacrifices some of its tank, it's Heavy Weapons, to fit 2 Light Weapons. It's called the Commando Suit.
I disagree with the whole philosophy of a single Main Weapon and a Sidearm. Lore wise, there is no believable justification, because technology would ADVANCE. If you can have ships that fly faster than the speed of light, or RDVs that can do sub-orbital Vehicle Drops Remotely, and not requirte a pilot, why should the forces themselves go backwards.
Point 2. The system still has diversity and implements MORE customisation.
Bring 'Sidearms' up to the levels so they can be 'Main Weaponed' then give us the ability to Main 2 Weapons to adjust to changing circumstances.
In this respect, the 'Hard point' System of EVE hinders customisation. The rest of the fitting is great. Customisable, and able to fit roles already, but the weapons need to have the noose around their nexks undone.
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Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1628
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Posted - 2013.06.16 18:29:00 -
[19] - Quote
Support- the limiting factor should be PG/CPU |
Avinash Decker
BetaMax. CRONOS.
46
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Posted - 2013.06.16 18:56:00 -
[20] - Quote
The Black Jackal wrote:Charlotte O'Dell wrote:No Care to elaborate? We have a single limited BPC Suit (for those who got some) that wields a Shotgun and an Assault Rifle... this is a scout frame. We are getting in the future a 'Heavy Frame' that sacrifices some of its tank, it's Heavy Weapons, to fit 2 Light Weapons. It's called the Commando Suit. I disagree with the whole philosophy of a single Main Weapon and a Sidearm. Lore wise, there is no believable justification, because technology would ADVANCE. If you can have ships that fly faster than the speed of light, or RDVs that can do sub-orbital Vehicle Drops Remotely, and not requirte a pilot, why should the forces themselves go backwards. Point 2. The system still has diversity and implements MORE customisation. Bring 'Sidearms' up to the levels so they can be 'Main Weaponed' then give us the ability to Main 2 Weapons to adjust to changing circumstances. In this respect, the 'Hard point' System of EVE hinders customisation. The rest of the fitting is great. Customisable, and able to fit roles already, but the weapons need to have the noose around their nexks undone.
The whole specialization thing was supposedly to force players to work together/provide synergy and compensate each others weakness but I hardly ever see that unless you are in a highly organized squad , even then its not really required since most people specialize in ARs and AR their way to victory. In matches people only switch different roles if the situation calls for it ; if there's a vehicle they switch to swarms then switch back to their ARs and if they are losing badly and redlined people switch to sniping . I see far better synergy between different classes in bf and ps2. |
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Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1943
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Posted - 2013.06.16 19:12:00 -
[21] - Quote
Weight would be a far better metric than hard locked slots. Furthermore, it could give a real advantage to the heavier suit classes (able to carry more before encumbered) without balancing special modules as 2 parts of the whole. Unfortunately it feels far too late for that level of change. |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
782
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 21:48:00 -
[22] - Quote
What if weight factored how much of an equipment type and ammo we carried, like cargo in Eve. For example, while scouts and assaults could share the same capacity, heavies could be slightly above, and the logistics would be the highest, with the basic frames following a similar pattern. So now logi suits could carry possibly triple the nanohives of assault/medium frames per equipment slot taken. |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
782
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Posted - 2013.06.16 21:53:00 -
[23] - Quote
Charlotte O'Dell wrote:No Aren't you that sh*tty tank driver always screaming htfu, adapt or die, tanks need a buff? So now you admit you couldn't handle if everyone could have Av prior to you killing them? You don't have any other motive to not dislike this idea since yiu don't have to worry about any other combo being a tank driver. So why don't you take your own advice and adapt. |
J-Lewis
Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation
153
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Posted - 2013.06.18 13:33:00 -
[24] - Quote
In other words: Adopt the EVE Online system for weapons.
-+ High slots become med slots. -+ Weapon/grenade/equipment slots become High slots. -+ You can fit whatever weapons/grenades/equipment in the high slots (as long as you have the PG/CPU). -+ Suit bonuses encourage use of particular types of gear. -+ Some suits have more High slots than others.
The benefit of this system lies in more flexible fitting restrictions and item balancing.
Say the Heavy Commando got 5 High slots (e.g. slots for fitting weapons), he doesn't have enough fitting resources for 5 heavy weapons of course, however maybe he can fit 1 heavy, 2 light and 2 sidearms; but it costs him most if not all of his fitting, so no tank. Maybe he opts for 5 sidearms and a massive tank. Maybe he goes pure grenade. Maybe he takes a balanced approach with 1 heavy, 1 light, 1 sidearm, grenades and a piece of equipment.
I can't say I disagree with this concept of player freedom except it clashes with the current Skill Tree. |
Brutus Va'Khan
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
31
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Posted - 2013.06.18 14:01:00 -
[25] - Quote
The commando class may be coming soonTM, he carries two light weapons which presumably forces the class to lose grenades/equipment/slots.
I feel that more classes should be able to do this (I think the assault should be able to do this right now). With the way that a light weapon eats CPU/PG, I don't really see carrying 2 of them as OP (this guy is losing slots/equip/grenades to fit those, and losing slots means losing tank).
I think what it really comes down to is lore. Some suits are made to carry more stuff, sidearms are smaller than light weapons are smaller than heavy weapons. For example, a scout carrying a HMG would just be silly. Still, I hope that we get more classes of different frame sizes that can carry two light weapons. |
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