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Lord Sesshomarux
Shining Flame Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 04:37:00 -
[1] - Quote
Uh im brand new, just got into the game today.
I love sniping and I would like to know more about this games sniping,
and any hints, tips and advice for it. Thank you. |
Logi Bro
Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic
1179
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 04:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
Don't. |
Heathen Bastard
Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation
137
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 04:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
A: remember to take a knee so you don't sway like a drunk. B: be paranoid and flighty. you hear what sounds like a small rock hitting concrete? RUN! you hear a whizzing noise for a millisecond? RUN! these are both signs that another sniper has you in their sights, and just missed their first shot. |
Lord Sesshomarux
Shining Flame Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 04:42:00 -
[4] - Quote
dont what? |
Coleman Gray
GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention
182
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 04:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
snipe, it's more a hinderance to the team than a help. I don't know why, on paper a sniper sounds like a great boon for the team. In practice, not so much |
Heathen Bastard
Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation
137
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 04:46:00 -
[6] - Quote
he means don't snipe. because everyone will hate you. your team will hate you because you're not really helping, the enemy will hate you because snipers are 90% headglitching bags of kitten who abuse the current system to pad their KDR while being borderline useless to their team. and being a sniper is the "safest" profession, which is counter to the ideals most mercs hold(build a suit you aren't afraid to die in, because odds are you will, unless you're a sniper, because the terain glitches out at long ranges an makes you invincible.) |
Tarquin Markel
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
101
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 05:22:00 -
[7] - Quote
Meh. Sniping's fine; just don't do it to exclusion, especially in Skirmish.
A sniper's focus and purpose is to kill people, tidily, from long range. If killing people gets you closer to achieving your objectives, it's a net positive. If not, it's K/D padding.
Most matches are not won on kills. If you cannot stop or slow a hostile offensive or effectively support your own (by softening up hostile defenses, for example), you need to find something else to do for a while. Constantly ask yourself whether what you're doing will aid your team, and you won't come across as a kill-farming jerk.
(Also, the "head glitch" is a terrain modeling issue that will never look like any kind of abuse while you are using it-- it's just making good, traditional use of cover. It looks different from the other side.) |
Heathen Bastard
Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation
137
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 05:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tarquin Markel wrote:Meh. Sniping's fine; just don't do it to exclusion, especially in Skirmish.
A sniper's focus and purpose is to kill people, tidily, from long range. If killing people gets you closer to achieving your objectives, it's a net positive. If not, it's K/D padding.
Most Skirmish matches are not won on kills. If you cannot stop or slow a hostile offensive or effectively support your own (by softening up hostile defenses, for example), you need to find something else to do for a while. Constantly ask yourself whether what you're doing will aid your team, and you won't come across as a kill-farming jerk.
(Also, the "head glitch" is a terrain modeling issue that will never look like any kind of abuse while you are using it-- it's just making good, traditional use of cover. It looks different from the other side.)
yeah, like you're completely in the open but no shots at all will register. so basically its a terrain rendering exploit. you know what happens when they fix exploits, right? the people using them get caught flatfooted and killed. A lot.
supposedly the headglitching exploit will be fixed come may 6th, so most sniper's days are numbered right now.(they'll give up when they realize that they can now be shot just like everyone else.) |
2100 Angels
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
49
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 05:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
My advice if you're planning on running as a sniper is fivefold:
1.Always support your squad. This is especially relevant for skirmish matches where you are trying to push and hold strategic objectives. If you can make work for them just a little bit easier by either softening heavy shields, calling out flanking manoeuvres or thinning the enemy force you're doing your job.
2. Situational Awareness is key. Don't get tunnel vision sniping. Always be looking around and making sure you're keeping tabs on people trying to creep up on you. The long range scanning, profile analysis and profile dampening skills all come in handy here.
3. Move around. Constantly moving positions will keep enemies guessing about where they're being hit from. There is nothing more frustrating than a sniper that you can't find.
4. Stay behind cover as often as possible. Don't be blazon; it will get you killed. This also makes it harder for people to spot you after you've taken a shot.
5. Put as much damage into your sniper fits as possible. The more people you can OHK, the easier your life will be and the more effective you will be on the battlefield. This is also handy if anybody ever gets in close range with you.
It's often hard to do these things perfectly, but if you can incorporate some of these into the way you play you'll become much more effective!
Hope it helps |
Tarquin Markel
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
101
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 06:00:00 -
[10] - Quote
Heathen Bastard wrote:yeah, like you're completely in the open but no shots at all will register. so basically its a terrain rendering exploit. you know what happens when they fix exploits, right? the people using them get caught flatfooted and killed. A lot.
supposedly the headglitching exploit will be fixed come may 6th, so most sniper's days are numbered right now.(they'll give up when they realize that they can now be shot just like everyone else.)
Maybe so, but I can't say I remember ever being in squad with a guy who said, "I'm going to get up on top of Sniper Mountain on Manus Peak to exploit the head glitch."
Like I said, it looks like totally fair play from the sniper's point of view. Head glitching is something other people do.
One fun side note is that it's not consistent even now. Not knowing what the glitch's parameters are, the "glitching" sniper has no way of knowing when his slight movements carry him out of the protected area, so occasionally checking back and trying that shot again produces satisfyingly bloody results. |
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Heathen Bastard
Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation
137
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 06:08:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tarquin Markel wrote:Heathen Bastard wrote:yeah, like you're completely in the open but no shots at all will register. so basically its a terrain rendering exploit. you know what happens when they fix exploits, right? the people using them get caught flatfooted and killed. A lot.
supposedly the headglitching exploit will be fixed come may 6th, so most sniper's days are numbered right now.(they'll give up when they realize that they can now be shot just like everyone else.) Maybe so, but I can't say I remember ever being in squad with a guy who said, "I'm going to get up on top of Sniper Mountain on Manus Peak to exploit the head glitch." Like I said, it looks like totally fair play from the sniper's point of view. Head glitching is something other people do. One fun side note is that it's not consistent even now. Not knowing what the glitch's parameters are, the "glitching" sniper has no way of knowing when his slight movements carry him out of the protected area, so occasionally checking back and trying that shot again produces satisfyingly bloody results.
They move? I've never seen that. they just sit there, presumably with a **** bottle, poopsock, and an nanohive lodged in their colon.
If you can't tell, I don't like snipers, and they know they're headglitching. Why else would they be in uniform spots on each map? |
Tarquin Markel
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
101
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 06:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
Heathen Bastard wrote:They move? I've never seen that. they just sit there, presumably with a **** bottle, poopsock, and an nanohive lodged in their colon.
If you can't tell, I don't like snipers, and they know they're headglitching. Why else would they be in uniform spots on each map?
Why else? Mostly because those spots have a commanding view of the field and semi-decent cover (which comes across to anyone shooting at them as the head glitch).
The glitch doesn't just apply to specific spots; it applies ANYWHERE there's a bit of terrain variance too small for the map to display at extreme ranges.
(Okay, yes, there's a finite number of those spots. It's not very finite, though. If you find a 2-foot mound of dirt that gives you decent cover from 80% of Objective B's grounds-- there are two of those on Manus Peak at the top of the road up the MCC mountain from B-- do you think snipers at B are going to see that 2-foot mound when they look at you? Not damn likely!)
Snipers move for a variety of reasons. They move because they know they're taking fire, and that the next shot might be through their visor. They move because they think the guy who was shooting at them has moved off, and it's safe to poke their heads out (frequently a mistaken assumption). They move because they forget that their scopes go all wobbly if they move, and their crosshair is just that one crucial pixel off of a tasty kill (stupid PS3 controller).
Mostly, though, they move because they don't have any good marks in their current field of view, and greener pastures are a meter and a half away. That meter and a half is all you need, if it means a helmet poking over the -actual- model for the mountaintop.
Zink!
+50 |
Heathen Bastard
Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation
138
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 06:35:00 -
[13] - Quote
I only move for one of those reasons. the "someone is trying to kill me" one. If I'm sniping, it is an exact purpose with a specified target type: counter sniping, which is borderline impossible on some maps with the headglitch and favorable spawns for one side and crap spawns for the other (manus peak skirmish, looking at you), Anti-Anti-Vehicle, and defensive sniping, where I basically hole up somewhere I can see the objective and can't be shot from virtually any angle, save for my firing angle.
once that point is accomplished, I move back into the fight with my pistol(except for point holding, I wait for orders on that one) Mostly, I like my pistol more than the rifle. feels more skillful to drop a heavy with a militia pistol when I'm down to shields(0 armor, no reps) at the start of the fight(he was at full shields and armor). I really don't think the HMG is OP anymore after that. I don't think I get to. |
Tarquin Markel
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
101
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 06:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
Hm. Well, if you don't use it already, may I recommend the tactical sniper rifle? A corpmate tipped me off to it a few days back, and I've been enjoying counter-sniping much more, since. The head glitch isn't gone, but it's easier to compensate for (easier to get a precise, high shot aimed specifically at the head), and a quick double or triple-tap more than makes up for the lower firepower.
Usually, if I can't beat the glitch, I do one of three things: head for higher ground, head farther out, or wait.
Heading for higher ground improves your angle and makes it more likely that your shot will get past the "real" terrain structure. Heading farther out does the same by other means.
Waiting, which I do when neither of the other two are feasible, has me doing something else (like anti-infantry-- the horror!) from just out of the snipers' sight while waiting for them to shift around on their perch. Then I just pop back out, scope up, and double tap ... and, about 40%-50% of the time, get a kill. Otherwise, I just pull back under cover and wait a little longer, killing people while I'm at it.
Works great on Manus Peak.
Of course, counter-sniping, as you've noticed, comes with the usual sniper issue: you're not contributing very directly to the battle while you're doing it. I sometimes find it worthwhile to get Kaalakiota and Ishukone snipers to stop killing my team, though. |
Heathen Bastard
Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation
138
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 07:08:00 -
[15] - Quote
I never said the counter sniping was for the team. I'm a really good shot when I'm pissed
I am going to have an aneurism or my heart is going to explode or something like that, but damn do some of those "impossible" wins feel good. again, for emphasis: killed a heavy machine gunner with nothing but my shields and a militia scrambler. Hell. Yes. If I smoked, I would be doing it after that.
I also talk a lot in games, that means I'm having fun. if I get quiet I'm pissed, if I'm humming or singing I'm doing something that requires focus(sniping, dancing with multiple partners with my pistol, or just to keep my mind sharper for quicker snap aiming. by taking my mind a bit out of the game I can react more efficiently{not necessarily faster, but better})
I have bullet time that is fueled by hate and singing!(and according to the English the singing is creepy as hell. Seriously, only people from England have said it's creepy!) |
mollerz
s1ck3r Corp
132
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 07:22:00 -
[16] - Quote
snipers are never appreciated.
There's zero way for anyone outside your sqd to know wtf you are doing. a lot of times you'd have a 0/4+ KD moron "team mate" shoot you, melee you, and then you hear the time old nade beep (wait to a count of two and move quick. they just kill themselves). They don't seem to check the leaderboard to see you are in the top four of the team and they are in the bottom four. But hey, you are sniping. It's absolutely your fault they are sucking hard
Just do your thing. Get good at counter sniping initially. That is the easiest foray into sniping. You will have stationary targets, and can work on finding head shots.
The best sniper rifle you can use for counter sniping is the charged sniper. It is the weirdest and hardest to master, but you can get good enough to take it into CQC if you are in a group. 1v1 it comes down to bugs hitting you or not or you blowing your one shot. Charging it half way does base damage of 133 and a full charge does 266. Pile on skill bonuses as well as complex light damage modifiers and you can one snipe scouts and assaults (unless they are seriously proto'd out). Heavies can be done in two shots!
...which leads me to having a good back up weapon you skill into and can equip. SMG or pistol- whatever you feel comfy with. because once you kill someone for the fifth time, rest assured, they are coming for you. And sometimes it's in your face.
Then you initially have to say am i going to work on OHK everything, or being super stealthy, or finally, am I going to be super defensive. some might say it comes down to the map, but really it comes down to you saying this is the way i want to snipe and i am going to figure out a way for every map to accommodate that strategy by maxing out the skills you need.
I've been a decent sniper in every game since the OG operation flashpoint, so i love sniping sometimes. F the people that can't appreciate that some people like that game play, and worse, can't even see that it could benefit them immensely.
|
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
2455
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 07:27:00 -
[17] - Quote
If you hear a Shotgun, and don't know where it came from, stop whatever you're doing and find out. Check the kill feed, if a red name got a Shotgun kill, and you heard it, FIND THEM.
Remember your minimap, look at it when you have any reason to suspect a nearby enemy. Paranoia and scanning capabilities are your friend.
If you're running an Assault suit, keep in mind that your Scan Precision is HORRIBLE by default. Either skill into passive Precision improvements, or fit Precision mods to improve yourself in this area, or just be more paranoid. If you can hear gunfire, you're probably closer to the fight than you want to be. Whenever a red gets a kill and the weapon is something you can hear being fired, look around on the off chance it was another sniper sharing your perch.
Make sure - unless you're a Logi - to keep a sidearm that you're effective with. If you don't like spray-and-pray, bring a Pistol. If you suck at close-range headshots, don't bring a Pistol. Keep in mind the two sidearms both have VERY different handling from your rifle, and whatever you choose, PRACTICE LIKE CRAZY WITH IT. If you're good with either Sidearm, you can defend yourself competently.
Learn to manage scope sway. When you first scope in as a new player, your scope will be rolling all over the place. When you crouch, there's still sway, but it's a LOT more manageable. Training your character up in Sniper Rifle Operations gives you a MASSIVE reduciton in sway, and learning to crouch before scoping in can make a huge difference as well. With Sniper Ops at level 5, you get barely any sway even when standing, so aiming for that early on is crucial to increasing your effectiveness. |
Lord Sesshomarux
Shining Flame Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 09:19:00 -
[18] - Quote
Ok, well I played a bit earlier, and I have to say,s niping is fun.
Ive been doing pretty well, depending on the map.
I have to say I prefer ambush(getting the kills to win) alot more fun, but ive been getting annoyed when I dont find a good spot.
^^
I love the default and the one shot to the head thing.
I always aim for head.
Uh the tactical sniper?
Um can you guys explain it to me?
how good is it?
what can it do cmopared to a basic sniper that does dmg per shot? |
Aesiron Kor-Azor
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
42
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 09:25:00 -
[19] - Quote
Lord Sesshomarux wrote:Ok, well I played a bit earlier, and I have to say,s niping is fun.
Ive been doing pretty well, depending on the map.
I have to say I prefer ambush(getting the kills to win) alot more fun, but ive been getting annoyed when I dont find a good spot.
^^
I love the default and the one shot to the head thing.
I always aim for head.
Uh the tactical sniper?
Um can you guys explain it to me?
how good is it?
what can it do cmopared to a basic sniper that does dmg per shot?
Don't snipe, you will get double the amount of points by playing anything else simply because they are in the fight.
|
2100 Angels
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
50
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 09:42:00 -
[20] - Quote
Lord Sesshomarux wrote:Ok, well I played a bit earlier, and I have to say,s niping is fun.
Ive been doing pretty well, depending on the map.
I have to say I prefer ambush(getting the kills to win) alot more fun, but ive been getting annoyed when I dont find a good spot.
^^
I love the default and the one shot to the head thing.
I always aim for head.
Uh the tactical sniper?
Um can you guys explain it to me?
how good is it?
what can it do cmopared to a basic sniper that does dmg per shot?
It all just depends on your playstyle.
Sniper Rifle: 5 shot clip, more damage, slower ROF. Tactical Sniper Rifle: 3 shot clip, less damage, much higher ROF. Charge Sniper Rifle: 5 shot clip, shitload of damage, slow ROF. With this variant you hold down the fire button and release to shoot once charged. |
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
2458
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 09:46:00 -
[21] - Quote
2100 Angels wrote:Lord Sesshomarux wrote:Uh the tactical sniper?
Um can you guys explain it to me?
how good is it?
what can it do cmopared to a basic sniper that does dmg per shot? It all just depends on your playstyle. Sniper Rifle: 5 shot clip, more damage, slower ROF. Tactical Sniper Rifle: 3 shot clip, less damage, much higher ROF. Charge Sniper Rifle: 5 shot clip, shitload of damage, slow ROF. With this variant you hold down the fire button and release to shoot once charged. You forgot to mention that the Tactical Sniper more zoom on the scope. It's slightly better for extreme range counter-sniping, but not as effective in close quarters because of it. |
Lord Sesshomarux
Shining Flame Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 09:50:00 -
[22] - Quote
2100 Angels wrote:Lord Sesshomarux wrote:Ok, well I played a bit earlier, and I have to say,s niping is fun.
Ive been doing pretty well, depending on the map.
I have to say I prefer ambush(getting the kills to win) alot more fun, but ive been getting annoyed when I dont find a good spot.
^^
I love the default and the one shot to the head thing.
I always aim for head.
Uh the tactical sniper?
Um can you guys explain it to me?
how good is it?
what can it do cmopared to a basic sniper that does dmg per shot? It all just depends on your playstyle. Sniper Rifle: 5 shot clip, more damage, slower ROF. Tactical Sniper Rifle: 3 shot clip, less damage, much higher ROF. Charge Sniper Rifle: 5 shot clip, shitload of damage, slow ROF. With this variant you hold down the fire button and release to shoot once charged.
Ok between sniper rifle and tactical.
How is the recoil on the tactical?
Is the tactical more reliable for headshots? Body shots?
|
2100 Angels
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
51
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 09:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:2100 Angels wrote:Lord Sesshomarux wrote:Uh the tactical sniper?
Um can you guys explain it to me?
how good is it?
what can it do cmopared to a basic sniper that does dmg per shot? It all just depends on your playstyle. Sniper Rifle: 5 shot clip, more damage, slower ROF. Tactical Sniper Rifle: 3 shot clip, less damage, much higher ROF. Charge Sniper Rifle: 5 shot clip, shitload of damage, slow ROF. With this variant you hold down the fire button and release to shoot once charged. You forgot to mention that the Tactical Sniper more zoom on the scope. It's slightly better for extreme range counter-sniping, but not as effective in close quarters because of it.
I'm pretty sure the zoom fidelity is the same. The Tac AR has an increased zoom fidelity but I haven't noticed anything for the sniper rifles.
Lord Sesshomarux wrote:Ok between sniper rifle and tactical.
How is the recoil on the tactical?
Is the tactical more reliable for headshots? Body shots?
well "reliable" is probably the wrong term.. It's entirely dependant on skill, and with the same (if not, very similar) zoom fidelity there is really much of a muchness. A headshot will do 195% of the damage though, so you'll OHK more with the standard sniper rifle when you get a head shot |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
2458
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 10:05:00 -
[24] - Quote
2100 Angels wrote:I'm pretty sure the zoom fidelity is the same. The Tac AR has an increased zoom fidelity but I haven't noticed anything for the sniper rifles. Last time I looked at sniper descriptions, zoom fidelity was mentioned for the Tac Sniper, and while I haven't used them since the last reset, they DID have a slightly higher zoom back then. |
2100 Angels
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
51
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 10:57:00 -
[25] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:2100 Angels wrote:I'm pretty sure the zoom fidelity is the same. The Tac AR has an increased zoom fidelity but I haven't noticed anything for the sniper rifles. Last time I looked at sniper descriptions, zoom fidelity was mentioned for the Tac Sniper, and while I haven't used them since the last reset, they DID have a slightly higher zoom back then. It wasn't a huge difference, but it was enough for me to notice. I'd be inclined to defer to your (more recent) experience in this case though, since I haven't looked at it in a LOONG time.
Yeah, your comment made me wonder about it and you're right it does say so in the description, but after testing it doesn't actually have an increased zoom fidelity. maybe it should? If it had the same fidelity as the Thales I'd personally find it a lot more useful at the longer ranges, giving a certain situational purpose to both of the rifles |
Tarquin Markel
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
102
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 14:50:00 -
[26] - Quote
It does, definitely, have better zoom. I switched over to it from using charged snipers a few days ago, and the difference is significant.
Now, when I say "significant," please understand that I mean enemies at extreme range are made out of a dozen or so pixels instead of six.
It is NOT the Thale's, which comes with God's own eyeball (and ability to smite). |
Tarquin Markel
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
102
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 15:03:00 -
[27] - Quote
2100 Angels wrote:Lord Sesshomarux wrote:Ok between sniper rifle and tactical.
How is the recoil on the tactical?
Is the tactical more reliable for headshots? Body shots? well "reliable" is probably the wrong term.. It's entirely dependant on skill, and with the same (if not, very similar) zoom fidelity there is really much of a muchness. A headshot will do 195% of the damage though, so you'll OHK more with the standard sniper rifle when you get a head shot
The standard sniper does OHK more often.
The tactical lands a second shot more often-- not because it's more accurate (all sniper rifles "snap back" to their firing position), but because it's a rare target who has the wherewithal to move before the second shot lands. If you miss the second shot on a standing target, the cause is usually unadulterated luck (as in, he moved just then for a totally different reason). A double or triple-tap with the tactical usually kills any sniper on the field (which is a serious breath of fresh air after wrestling with the Charge).
Heavies are a headache to try and hammer through, but you can wound them badly, and very quickly, with any of the sniper rifles. |
2100 Angels
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
53
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 15:17:00 -
[28] - Quote
Tarquin Markel wrote:It does, definitely, have better zoom. I switched over to it from using charged snipers a few days ago, and the difference is significant.
Now, when I say "significant," please understand that I mean enemies at extreme range are made out of a dozen or so pixels instead of six.
It is NOT the Thale's, which comes with God's own eyeball (and ability to smite).
I literally just tested it, measuring an object (the same object in both instances) in my FOV against the scope HUD. It was exactly the same. I would suggest that any impression of better zoom is a placebo effect |
Tarquin Markel
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
102
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 15:40:00 -
[29] - Quote
2100 Angels wrote:Tarquin Markel wrote:It does, definitely, have better zoom. I switched over to it from using charged snipers a few days ago, and the difference is significant.
Now, when I say "significant," please understand that I mean enemies at extreme range are made out of a dozen or so pixels instead of six.
It is NOT the Thale's, which comes with God's own eyeball (and ability to smite). I literally just tested it, measuring an object (the same object in both instances) in my FOV against the scope HUD. It was exactly the same. I would suggest that any impression of better zoom is a placebo effect
Eh ... possible, I suppose. |
Sleepy Zan
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
2182
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 16:29:00 -
[30] - Quote
More then a few times in the past I was on one of those crappy teams getting redlined and we could barely hold onto an objective, with significant assistance from mine and on some occasions other good snipers sniping we managed to clone the other team and win the game. This mostly occurred on Manus Peak of course |
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