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Caeli SineDeo Imperfects Negative-Feedback 306	Posted - 2013.03.09 23:42:00 - [1] - Quote Means I made my post on how rails work I am going to talk about some things. This is something for CCP and others to look at when they are thinking about how they will fix Tank damage mods. If they actually fix them and skill point damage staking armor tanks will have the field and there will be no point to run shield anymore. Look at this thread to see what is going on with tanks right now and how rails work. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=62955&find=unread First off I think they need to work on fixing passive skill stacking bug only. If they fix the damage mod bug it will make armor tanks the 1 tank to rule the field. Here is some information why. Some information on armor tank modules Best heavy repper 414 for 15 secs with a pulse each sec which means 15 pulses. This gives it a total of 6210 total HP back. The 3% skill for armor repair does not effect these reps otherwise it will be more. Tested to make sure myself. The 60mm plate gives 782 best 180mm plate gives 3128 The easiest to small shield extender to fit is supplemental gives 585 Surya base stats 25% from Shield control and mechanics Shield 900 1125 Armor 3480 4350 Surya build low 1 180mm 1 60mm 1 Large rep 2 25% active resist armor high 1 supplemental shield extender 1 15% passive resist shield 1 heat sink Total Buffer HP 13637 Before resist After resist Shield 1710 1966 15% Armor 8260 11671 41.3% total resist Total repable Before resist After resist Shield is passive so does not effect tank fight because it is so small Armor 6210 8647 Per sec for armor after resist 576 Sagaris Only can fit heavy azeotrophic extender which gives 2185 and small azeotropic ward extender which gives 748 on a 3 damage mod set up Sagaris Base HP 25% from shield control and mechanics shield 3120 3900 armor 1000 1250 Sagaris build Low 3 damage mods high 1 heavy azeotrophic 1 small azeotrophic 2 purge resist 1 heat sink Total buffer HP 11472 Before resist After Resist 6833 10222 1250 1250 Shield is passive rep so does not effect tank fight because it is so small. Rail Damage Base is 1798 All skills 2427 3 Damage mods 3018 24.36% more damage Armor tank needs to 5 shot a sagaris set up 3 damage mod Shield tank needs to 5 shot a armor tank to get through all its buffer. So they are on a even bases. But here is the thing armor is repping HP with module back. Each shot for the rail tank after rate of fire reduction will take 1.95 secs Total time to 5th shot is 7.744 secs from the first shot So another 4460 HP will be repped back again so added that to the base 5.996 shots so that means a whole another 1.95 secs added on and would put you up to needing 7 shots to take down a surya. What does this show if they fix the damage mods armor tanks will rule all ways of warfare. You can not fight the facts. If you do not believe me go test this stuff yourself. I put in the time. And I know CCP will probably not even pay attention which is sad.
Caeli SineDeo Imperfects Negative-Feedback 306	Posted - 2013.03.09 23:43:00 - [2] - Quote reserved
Thor Thunder Fist Better Hide R Die 84	Posted - 2013.03.09 23:49:00 - [3] - Quote you can easily fit 2 heavy extenders or a heavy extender and a heavy booster on a sag I've actually got a fitting that has 2 heavy proto extenders and a heavy booster on it.... don't use it very often just saying it is possible and fairly easy to have more shield even with the damage mods there....
Caeli SineDeo Imperfects Negative-Feedback 308	Posted - 2013.03.10 00:08:00 - [4] - Quote Thor Thunder Fist wrote: you can easily fit 2 heavy extenders or a heavy extender and a heavy booster on a sag I've actually got a fitting that has 2 heavy proto extenders and a heavy booster on it.... don't use it very often just saying it is possible and fairly easy to have more shield even with the damage mods there.... Actually you can not fit 2 heavy extenders on a 3 damage mod sagaris, I run one. Yes if you drop damage mods for PG mods you can but still you loose damage which means taking up to 8 shots to kill a surya. I know my sagaris inside and out. Also remember this is a proto rail If I drop down to standard or advanced maybe then. But that means less damage again.
Ulysses Knapse Nuevo Atlas Corporation 103	Posted - 2013.03.10 00:10:00 - [5] - Quote Armor Tanking HAVs are not the HAV to end all HAVs. They are slower and take more damage from Explosive Weaponry, and do not passively regenerate. In a head-to-head confrontation with another HAV, Armor Tanking is best, but for general and anti-infantry use, Shield Tanking is best.
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2381	Posted - 2013.03.10 00:12:00 - [6] - Quote caeli posted in ur other thread mind if i link ur thread into mine? seems passive skills are broken and dmg mods just display the wrong value but stack properly
Caeli SineDeo Imperfects Negative-Feedback 308	Posted - 2013.03.10 00:16:00 - [7] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: caeli posted in ur other thread mind if i link ur thread into mine? seems passive skills are broken and dmg mods just display the wrong value but stack properly You can link them Mav I want CCP to see these things. @Ulysses Knapse you are so incorrect it is sad. Armor are the best anti-infantry. They can actually take a lot more punishment from AV weapons then shield tanks can dream of. And this is showing CCP what happens if they put damage mods to 10%.
Ulysses Knapse Nuevo Atlas Corporation 103	Posted - 2013.03.10 00:21:00 - [8] - Quote Caeli SineDeo wrote: Mavado V Noriega wrote: caeli posted in ur other thread mind if i link ur thread into mine? seems passive skills are broken and dmg mods just display the wrong value but stack properly You can link them Mav I want CCP to see these things. @Ulysses Knapse you are so incorrect it is sad. Armor are the best anti-infantry. They can actually take a lot more punishment from AV weapons then shield tanks can dream of. And this is showing CCP what happens if they put damage mods to 10%. Me? Incorrect? Blasphemy. Sure, Armor has a larger buffer, but it is still slower, still takes more damage from swarm launchers, and still has to use modules to repair to any degree. If you try to say I'm incorrect, you must correct me.
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2382	Posted - 2013.03.10 00:29:00 - [9] - Quote Caeli SineDeo wrote: Mavado V Noriega wrote: caeli posted in ur other thread mind if i link ur thread into mine? seems passive skills are broken and dmg mods just display the wrong value but stack properly You can link them Mav I want CCP to see these things. @Ulysses Knapse you are so incorrect it is sad. Armor are the best anti-infantry. They can actually take a lot more punishment from AV weapons then shield tanks can dream of. And this is showing CCP what happens if they put damage mods to 10%. not true imho if u have 2 good swarmers with dmg mods loaded up they gonna punish an armor tank trust me i have a high defense tank and swarms and av nades the ez mode weapons of AV hurt armor and hurt quick reps arent gonna rep all the dmg u can take back its harder for shields to go down cuz they faster and forge gunners who are most dangerous to shields put themselves at alot more risk than lolswarmers 2 good assault FGers can take down a shield pretty easily just as 2 good swarmers can take down an armor tank overall both tanks are weak imo when it comes to infantry AV
Caeli SineDeo Imperfects Negative-Feedback 314	Posted - 2013.03.10 00:34:00 - [10] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Caeli SineDeo wrote: Mavado V Noriega wrote: caeli posted in ur other thread mind if i link ur thread into mine? seems passive skills are broken and dmg mods just display the wrong value but stack properly You can link them Mav I want CCP to see these things. @Ulysses Knapse you are so incorrect it is sad. Armor are the best anti-infantry. They can actually take a lot more punishment from AV weapons then shield tanks can dream of. And this is showing CCP what happens if they put damage mods to 10%. Me? Incorrect? Blasphemy. Sure, Armor has a larger buffer, but it is still slower, still takes more damage from swarm launchers, and still has to use modules to repair to any degree. If you try to say I'm incorrect, you must correct me. Not for me too do because you simply can not read the facts. I will let zitros stats speak for how easy armor tanks anti infantry. And also let any decent tanker out there tell you whats up. I just spent my time proving you wrong. When you have not proved anything yourself besides spoke a opinion where I have layed out facts already.

Caeli SineDeo Imperfects Negative-Feedback 314	Posted - 2013.03.10 00:36:00 - [11] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: Caeli SineDeo wrote: Mavado V Noriega wrote: caeli posted in ur other thread mind if i link ur thread into mine? seems passive skills are broken and dmg mods just display the wrong value but stack properly You can link them Mav I want CCP to see these things. @Ulysses Knapse you are so incorrect it is sad. Armor are the best anti-infantry. They can actually take a lot more punishment from AV weapons then shield tanks can dream of. And this is showing CCP what happens if they put damage mods to 10%. not true imho if u have 2 good swarmers with dmg mods loaded up they gonna punish an armor tank trust me i have a high defense tank and swarms and av nades the ez mode weapons of AV hurt armor and hurt quick reps arent gonna rep all the dmg u can take back its harder for shields to go down cuz they faster and forge gunners who are most dangerous to shields put themselves at alot more risk than lolswarmers 2 good assault FGers can take down a shield pretty easily just as 2 good swarmers can take down an armor tank overall both tanks are weak imo when it comes to infantry AV You're wrong mav 1 proto forge gunner can drop a shild tank with 3-4 shots. It does not take 2 good forge gunners only a single proto forge. My best tanked sagris is toast. You also forget about Flux that decimate shield tanks because they bypass resist on them also. 1 single forger is all it takes. And you need 2 swarmers to take you down proof right there that armor needs more AV to take it. Oh ya tops speeds are both 24 for surya and sagaris so shield are not faster.
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 136	Posted - 2013.03.10 00:44:00 - [12] - Quote Just curious, but if CCP switches the racial skill on Caldari tanks to a 4% bonus per point in marauder from missiles to railguns, would that help after the damage mod change? Surya is the clear winner for blaster builds, but I'm curious if the shield tank could get some bonus to railguns too. It makes sense to have different tanks good at different things, instead of making one tank the best at everything.
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 136	Posted - 2013.03.10 00:56:00 - [13] - Quote And thanks for info and research I really enjoy shield tanking. I'd be sad if CCP made Caldari tanks go the way the missiles went ;( I have started to prepare for it too. Fortunately many of the skills required for shield tanking are also required for armor so it's not too hard to switch. Armor tanks have a bit of shield, so hopefully those points are not completely wasted. and no armor tankers, I don't need your pity, comfort and sympathy -.-
slap26 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 492	Posted - 2013.03.10 18:56:00 - [14] - Quote CCP needs to fix there numbers but keep damage where it is at. Otherwise you won't be seeing anything other then an armor tank on the field
Charlotte O'Dell Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 28	Posted - 2013.03.11 01:37:00 - [15] - Quote +1
Charlotte O'Dell Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 28	Posted - 2013.03.11 01:38:00 - [16] - Quote 0 Try Harder wrote: Just curious, but if CCP switches the racial skill on Caldari tanks to a 4% bonus per point in marauder from missiles to railguns, would that help after the damage change? Surya is the clear winner for blaster builds, but I'm curious if the shield tank could get some bonus to railguns too. It makes sense to have different tanks good at different things, instead of making one tank the best at everything. edited out "mod", because it's not, sry mispoke D: +1
Charlotte O'Dell Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 33	Posted - 2013.03.11 15:36:00 - [17] - Quote 0 Try Harder wrote: Just curious, but if CCP switches the racial skill on Caldari tanks to a 4% bonus per point in marauder from missiles to railguns, would that help after the damage change? Surya is the clear winner for blaster builds, but I'm curious if the shield tank could get some bonus to railguns too. It makes sense to have different tanks good at different things, instead of making one tank the best at everything. edited out "mod", because it's not, sry mispoke D: +1

CCP Phantom C C P C C P Alliance 1	Posted - 2013.03.12 13:36:00 - [18] - Quote Thank you for this interesting analysis. I will forward this thread to our development teams. Please keep up the good work.


CCP Phantom C C P C C P Alliance 5	Posted - 2013.03.12 16:25:00 - [19] - Quote Just a quick update from our developers: Tank combat (Tank vs Tank) is getting investigated and worked on for the next update. Your feedback already proved to be very valuable, but further constructive suggestions and experience feedback would be most welcome.

G Torq ALTA B2O 97	Posted - 2013.03.13 09:44:00 - [20] - Quote Purely out of curiousity: Have anyone held an 8v8 Corp Tank Battle before? Asking, since this is definitely one of the ways to get impressions of the feasibility of different builds, as long as both sides agree to some basic rules (let HAVs spawn, at least initially, use varied builds instead of 8 identical ones, etc etc).

Caeli SineDeo Imperfects Negative-Feedback 332	Posted - 2013.03.13 18:44:00 - [21] - Quote CCP Phantom wrote: Just a quick update from our developers: Tank combat (Tank vs Tank) is getting investigated and worked on for the next update. Your feedback already proved to be very valuable, but further constructive suggestions and experience feedback would be most welcome. Thanks for commenting on this thread. :) If the dev staff has any questions about my figures or would like me to try to test something else they are wondering about I am willing to put the effort in to make game play improve overall.
slap26 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 494	Posted - 2013.03.13 21:32:00 - [22] - Quote Caeli SineDeo wrote: CCP Phantom wrote: Just a quick update from our developers: Tank combat (Tank vs Tank) is getting investigated and worked on for the next update. Your feedback already proved to be very valuable, but further constructive suggestions and experience feedback would be most welcome. Thanks for commenting on this thread. :) If the dev staff has any questions about my figures or would like me to try to test something else they are wondering about I am willing to put the effort in to make game play improve overall. Or get ahold of Lazulian Sol, His math is better Nerd fight commence
Charlotte O'Dell Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 40	Posted - 2013.03.13 21:47:00 - [23] - Quote G Torq wrote: Purely out of curiousity: Have anyone held an 8v8 Corp Tank Battle before? Asking, since this is definitely one of the ways to get impressions of the feasibility of different builds, as long as both sides agree to some basic rules (let HAVs spawn, at least initially, use varied builds instead of 8 identical ones, etc etc). I was in a 4v 4 tank battle (16 tanks deployed throughout the whole battle. Suryas crushed Sagaris' most of the time bc their PG imbalance allows extreme advantages in defense. The Sagaris' only advantage is acceleration which doesn't matter in a pitched battle. Please fix this imbalance bc shield tanks are being crushed.
Asaaritus Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 0	Posted - 2013.04.09 04:46:00 - [24] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: Caeli SineDeo wrote: Mavado V Noriega wrote: caeli posted in ur other thread mind if i link ur thread into mine? seems passive skills are broken and dmg mods just display the wrong value but stack properly You can link them Mav I want CCP to see these things. @Ulysses Knapse you are so incorrect it is sad. Armor are the best anti-infantry. They can actually take a lot more punishment from AV weapons then shield tanks can dream of. And this is showing CCP what happens if they put damage mods to 10%. not true imho if u have 2 good swarmers with dmg mods loaded up they gonna punish an armor tank trust me i have a high defense tank and swarms and av nades the ez mode weapons of AV hurt armor and hurt quick reps arent gonna rep all the dmg u can take back its harder for shields to go down cuz they faster and forge gunners who are most dangerous to shields put themselves at alot more risk than lolswarmers 2 good assault FGers can take down a shield pretty easily just as 2 good swarmers can take down an armor tank overall both tanks are weak imo when it comes to infantry AV They're weak when it comes to militia AV, because heaven forbid those people that sink everything into assault this and that shouldn't be able to solo proto armor tanks with basic weaponry.
slap26 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 674	Posted - 2013.06.01 06:11:00 - [25] - Quote CCP Phantom wrote: Just a quick update from our developers: Tank combat (Tank vs Tank) is getting investigated and worked on for the next update. Your feedback already proved to be very valuable, but further constructive suggestions and experience feedback would be most welcome. They obviously didn't read a damned thing in this thread Edit: tanking is in the exact situation that was presented here.
Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 109	Posted - 2013.06.01 06:43:00 - [26] - Quote slow clap for CCP
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 535	Posted - 2013.06.01 07:27:00 - [27] - Quote slap26 wrote: CCP Phantom wrote: Just a quick update from our developers: Tank combat (Tank vs Tank) is getting investigated and worked on for the next update. Your feedback already proved to be very valuable, but further constructive suggestions and experience feedback would be most welcome. They obviously didn't read a damned thing in this thread Edit: tanking is in the exact situation that was presented here. not a word of it and thought it was crazy idea... well welcome to what you created CCP.
Horse Schitt Turalyon Plus 6	Posted - 2013.06.01 08:57:00 - [28] - Quote Many people are only seeing the stats here. Tanking is more than just how many shots it will take to destroy another. A shield tanks by nature has to be faster and more manuverable than an armor tank. A shield tank should have the ability to disengage from a fight, depending on the situation. I think CCP and others should look at World of Tanks or similar MMOs. Whoever wins doesn't always come down to has more tank or more damage. If a guy with a railgun/shield tank is 200m out from an armor/blaster tank, obviously the armor is going down. But what about a shield/railgun vs an armor/railgun? Well. whenever I use railguns I always use a caldari shield tank. The shield tank allows for me to be faster, and get into a position (Usually above the target) where I can shoot at him, but he can't shoot me. This is how I think shield tanks are supposed to be. Fast, but not a brawler. Something I notice is that people tend to treat their shield tanks as a brawler, which leads to them complaining on the forum. Now, let's look at EVE. If a guys using a kite fit is playing like a brawler, should CCP rebalance the modules or the guns? No, because they aren't playing to their advantages, which makes it easier for the enemy to take them out.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 537	Posted - 2013.06.01 09:03:00 - [29] - Quote shield HAVs are slower then armor HAVs so more "maneuverable" goes to armor HAVs.
EXASTRA INVICTAS Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 47	Posted - 2013.06.01 09:16:00 - [30] - Quote ladwar wrote: shield HAVs are slower then armor HAVs so more "maneuverable" goes to armor HAVs. Any armor HAV with a single plate for tanking instantly becomes slower than the shield tank, even with the smallest armor plating. Shield HAVs also have enough high slots to spare for a nitrous injector if they so choose (slights their tank a little)



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