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Nguruthos IX
Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire
52
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Posted - 2013.03.04 22:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
Once eve can inject ISK into dust you may fully realize this problem.
Currently only the vehicle owner is required to have the millions of SP invested in a Tank/Drop-ship and the SP for modules to unlock them or skills to reduce power grid and even fit those modules.
What this means is that a play with enough ISK could hypothetically call in 15 proto tanks, and roll a match when all brand new players that have not allocated a single skill point.
Surely there should be a few lines of code in the vehicle objects which when created initialize a variable for vehicleOwner. And this should be used to prevent anyone who is not the owner from driving/piloting the ship. Unless you want to check against the SP of every person trying to get inside the driver seat, I think this is a solid short hand solution which guarantees only the player with the appropriate skills can use the vehicle.
However if an enemy hacks the vehicle for all practical purposes this should go out the window or else there would be no point in hacking a vehicle.
Your thoughts? |
Knight SoIaire
Better Hide R Die
53
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Posted - 2013.03.04 23:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
Its fine.
It hasn't been done yet, they should probably just get a speed and damage reduction.
It is teamwork. |
semperfi1999
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
333
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Posted - 2013.03.04 23:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
I see nothing wrong with this.....well first off I dont htink you can have 15 vehicles the limit is lower than that but if someone wants to call in the max number of vehicles in the form of proto tanks for your teammates have at it. Although its likely that the people in the tanks wont know what to do which means that they will still die pretty fast to enemy AV leading to massive ISK profits for the other team. But I dont have a problem with this at all. |
Skihids
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
987
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Posted - 2013.03.04 23:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'd like to see a skill requirement to get into the pilots set of a vehicle to reduce theft and make the skills worth more to your corporation. You could add skill requirements for individual modules or guns too. |
Drommy Hood
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
249
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Posted - 2013.03.04 23:11:00 -
[5] - Quote
Skihids wrote:I'd like to see a skill requirement to get into the pilots set of a vehicle to reduce theft and make the skills worth more to your corporation. You could add skill requirements for individual modules or guns too.
I agree. If you can't call it in, you can't pilot it. |
slap26
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION
481
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Posted - 2013.03.04 23:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
They don't have turret skills so they can't do the same damage |
Aighun
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
668
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Posted - 2013.03.04 23:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
There were several mentions last year around fanfest and E 3 when they first started pushing more demonstrations and gameplay footage that if you tried to drive a vehicle you did not have the skills for you would have a bad time. But what you have suggested does seem a viable strategy for losing a lot of ISK in a hurry, or even possibly steamrolling another team.
I am wondering, can an EVE player call in any number of high level ships for their corp members to pilot? How is this possible issue resolved in that game?
Currently Prototype tanks do not yet exist in game.
Currently you can only field a total of 5 vehicles per side per match.
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Ner'Zul Nexhawk
Talos Incorporated
166
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Posted - 2013.03.04 23:15:00 -
[8] - Quote
Knight SoIaire wrote:Its fine.
It hasn't been done yet, they should probably just get a speed and damage reduction.
It is teamwork.
I think OP's point is pretty valid. Such exploits would turn every battle into a dumb ISK war soon enough, if the solution is not implemented.
It doesn't even make sense logically that an inexperienced and untrained person would be able to drive a vehicle that requires weeks of training up that skill. Thus, let only people who have specific skills trained up to drive certain types of vehicles.
Or, restrict every merc to call in only one vehicle of one type at a time. |
Nguruthos IX
Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire
53
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Posted - 2013.03.04 23:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
Skihids wrote:I'd like to see a skill requirement to get into the pilots set of a vehicle to reduce theft and make the skills worth more to your corporation. You could add skill requirements for individual modules or guns too.
That's obviously getting at, but from another angle.
And having a driver seat lock also solves the issue in this thread, which people seem to think is a non-issue.
However it is the equivalent of being able to purchase and drop on the ground several sets of Proto-Gear for players to wear and use during a game.
I mean everyone is all up in arms about the AUR item being a level 3 skill requirement for sets that normally require level 5. This is the same thing, imagine people being able to use Proto dropsuits just because somebody else bought them. No SP required. I'd call it an exploit to the spirit of the game.
So Knight Solitaire, that is why I disagree. If only I could be so grossly indifferent.
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Skihids
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
987
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Posted - 2013.03.04 23:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
They might just skill into the turrets and bypass the hull, module, and fitting skills. Then they would be just as effective.
If anyone can use equipment they aren't skilled into to purchase, then I want to be able to loan a proto rep tool to my squadmate! |
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Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1076
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Posted - 2013.03.04 23:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
Knight SoIaire wrote:. It hasn't been done yet
It's been done while there was an exploit in closed beta. |
Tiel Syysch
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
655
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Posted - 2013.03.04 23:48:00 -
[12] - Quote
It's not an exploit, it's working as intended. That doesn't mean it's not dumb, though.
I brought it up with the devs a long while back, and was told they tried it at one point and it had some kind of problem. Can't remember the specifics at this point, as it's been months, but I still think something should be done about it, if only an SP-check on the hull type. |
Don Von Hulio
UnReaL.
110
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Posted - 2013.03.05 00:28:00 -
[13] - Quote
I can use a tank with no special points no special points no special points
I can use a tank with no special points no special points no special points
Look at me look at me, their guns on the ground as they run from me DEAD
And im a famous tanker They can shoot all their swarms at me I can show you how to maul a horde I can show you how to go 43 Use Proto weapons you cant afford I can also run a heavy suit I can show you how to glitch a wall I think AV nades are kinda cute Take damage from a 3 foot fall Keyboard mouse still conquers all Me and my friend killed a newberry Me and my friend have pirate a hook And guess how long they look l can do anything i want cuz, look
I can r*pe a heavy with an AR rifle an AR rifle an AR rifle
ITS A SING ALONG! Thats all i care to do for now. Im not a song writer but your thread title inspired me. XD I will make a thread of my own and have others fill in the rest haha |
Skihids
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
988
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Posted - 2013.03.05 00:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
Let's equalize everything. Let me take my squadmate to a supply depot and order him a set of proto gear on me. |
Don Von Hulio
UnReaL.
110
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Posted - 2013.03.05 00:43:00 -
[15] - Quote
My actual thoughts though. Join a good corp and you wont have to worry about rich randoms since most "good" corps pay for their members tanks when they lose them. So, your argument doesnt really hold water since, even without isk transfer between DUST and EVE... its already happening right now. |
Needless Sacermendor
Red Fox Brigade
212
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Posted - 2013.03.05 00:44:00 -
[16] - Quote
Sounds to me like someone got their HAV stolen by a blueberry cos they were too slow getting in it or called it in a daft place and got killed before they could get in.
There's a vehicle limit for a reason and if a corp wanted to drop 5 proo HAVs on the field then there's far less infantry to support them meaning you can field way more AV and HAVs of your own.
Don't make like this is a 'future problem' of one merc calling 5 proto HAVs for his team to roll in ... just say what you mean that you don't want blueberries to be able to steal your ride. The previous versions of this thread didn't beat around the bush !
There's an easy fix to your suggested problem, be prepared to counter anything !
The fix to your actual problem is a period of time which only the owner can enter the vehicle ... which we have already ! |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
292
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Posted - 2013.03.05 01:02:00 -
[17] - Quote
Aighun wrote:I am wondering, can an EVE player call in any number of high level ships for their corp members to pilot? How is this possible issue resolved in that game?
In EVE, you MUST have the skills necessary to pilot a ship or you cannot get into it.
So, yes, if I'm flying a ship with a Ship Bay, I can pop out a bunch of ships for my corpmates, but they need the skills to be able to use them.
The OP's point is well made and this probably should be fixed. |
Nguruthos IX
Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire
55
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Posted - 2013.03.05 01:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
Needless Sacermendor wrote:Sounds to me like someone got their HAV stolen by a blueberry cos they were too slow getting in it or called it in a daft place and got killed before they could get in.
There's a vehicle limit for a reason and if a corp wanted to drop 5 proo HAVs on the field then there's far less infantry to support them meaning you can field way more AV and HAVs of your own.
Don't make like this is a 'future problem' of one merc calling 5 proto HAVs for his team to roll in ... just say what you mean that you don't want blueberries to be able to steal your ride. The previous versions of this thread didn't beat around the bush !
There's an easy fix to your suggested problem, be prepared to counter anything !
The fix to your actual problem is a period of time which only the owner can enter the vehicle ... which we have already !
No but I did lose a DS once. Thing came down and yes there is about a 3 second window to get in first. Problem is the button to get in was bugging out appearing and disappearing. So I kept trying to catch it, ended up double clicking. Went in turret and some other guy got in right behind me, and flew it right into a wall.
It is a future problem because its comparable to handing out drop suits to anyone you want. It may not be an "Exploit" in the sense that it's a bug but it is against the spirit of the game's skill point system and could be exploited to some advantage.
So perhaps not "exploit" but massive oversight and design flaw |
Altina McAlterson
TRUE TEA BAGGERS
370
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Posted - 2013.03.05 02:31:00 -
[19] - Quote
Thing is let's say a player calls in a Gunloggi but gets shot by a sniper. If only that player, or another player with the same skills, can operate it then what if he can't get back to it because he spawns on the other side of the map? Or gets pinned down? Then people have to guard the thing so the enemy doesn't hack it and their tank driver go on a rampage. Or everyone has to invest at least a little bit in to tanks. You can't blow the thing up so you just have to wait.
And then even if someone has the required skills what if they can't use that proto mod yet? So it wouldn't work but the rest would, that's a quick death. Or what if they only have Circuitry IV? Then nothing would work, or the tank explodes and kills everyone.
Or what if it's a corp battle and it's a proto tank. Everything is groovy but suddenly the only player on the team with the exact skills required to drive it gets disconnected? Now the tank can't move and has to be guarded so someone on the other team doesn't hack it, plus no one knows what exactly the fitting is so they don't know if they can actually drive it or not. Even if the other team manages to hack the tank then none of them can drive it and they would have to guard it so the other team doesn't take it back. Only think they can do is kill it and now you've completely removed hacking vehicles from the game.
Sure, there are ways to deal with these issues. That's not my point. I'm just saying that while the current system is a bit silly I think any other option would just be a complete PITA.
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Nguruthos IX
Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire
58
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Posted - 2013.03.05 02:36:00 -
[20] - Quote
Altina McAlterson wrote:Thing is let's say a player calls in a Gunloggi but gets shot by a sniper. If only that player, or another player with the same skills, can operate it then what if he can't get back to it because he spawns on the other side of the map? Or gets pinned down? Then people have to guard the thing so the enemy doesn't hack it and their tank driver go on a rampage. Or everyone has to invest at least a little bit in to tanks. You can't blow the thing up so you just have to wait.
And then even if someone has the required skills what if they can't use that proto mod yet? So it wouldn't work but the rest would, that's a quick death. Or what if they only have Circuitry IV? Then nothing would work, or the tank explodes and kills everyone.
Or what if it's a corp battle and it's a proto tank. Everything is groovy but suddenly the only player on the team with the exact skills required to drive it gets disconnected? Now the tank can't move and has to be guarded so someone on the other team doesn't hack it, plus no one knows what exactly the fitting is so they don't know if they can actually drive it or not. Even if the other team manages to hack the tank then none of them can drive it and they would have to guard it so the other team doesn't take it back. Only think they can do is kill it and now you've completely removed hacking vehicles from the game.
Sure, there are ways to deal with these issues. That's not my point. I'm just saying that while the current system is a bit silly I think any other option would just be a complete PITA.
My ship has a small chance of living by itself on the ground, if I get shot, while I come back. If someone gets in it there is a 100% change they will be crashing it within 15 seconds.
And as a tank driver I think one would rather not have a scrub driving their tank into walls or enemy fire. It's better off sitting there than permanently locked down with a bad driver for as long as they might keep it.
The system I proposed eliminates any strangeness about modules falling out etc. |
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Altina McAlterson
TRUE TEA BAGGERS
371
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Posted - 2013.03.05 02:50:00 -
[21] - Quote
My ship has a small chance of living by itself on the ground, if I get shot, while I come back. If someone gets in it there is a 100% change they will be crashing it within 15 seconds.
And as a tank driver I think one would rather not have a scrub driving their tank into walls or enemy fire. It's better off sitting there than permanently locked down with a bad driver for as long as they might keep it.
The system I proposed eliminates any strangeness about modules falling out etc.[/quote] Yes, it does. But you still have to guard it so the enemy doesn't hack it and roll all over you with it. |
Sloth9230
Reaper Galactic
315
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Posted - 2013.03.05 03:19:00 -
[22] - Quote
semperfi1999 wrote: its likely that the people in the tanks wont know what to do Tis true... |
Needless Sacermendor
Red Fox Brigade
212
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Posted - 2013.03.05 10:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
This simple answer is to give the owner priority over switching into the driver seat.
Give him a 'Driver Seat' button when he's on a secondary turret ... hitting that will switch him with the driver |
A'Real Fury
The Silver Falcon Federation
22
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Posted - 2013.03.05 10:49:00 -
[24] - Quote
Needless Sacermendor wrote:This simple answer is to give the owner priority over switching into the driver seat.
Give him a 'Driver Seat' button when he's on a secondary turret ... hitting that will switch him with the driver
I agree with the above statement but you could expand it to say that the button gives automatic access even if the tank is full it will kick the player in the drivers seat out either into a free turret or if none are available then completely out of the tank. I believe vehicles should have the option to hack or jump in and drive but if the owner does get in then they should have the option to take control (drivers seat) of the vehicle. If you are going to call in a tank in a Ambush match without YOUR squad surrounding the drop point so even if you die one of your squad takes control of the HAV then you should accept us blueberries are not going to let it sit there.
If you play in Ambush as Lone Wolf and call in tanks or high end LAVs etc then you will need to plan carefully before calling your vehicle in. But with the owner priority button you should always have access and always given the driver seat.
As others have mentioned what is the point of having vehicles sitting around nobody else can use or even worse only someone on the other team can use. Particularly when there is a limit on the number of vehicles that a team can call in.
I assume that this is less of a problem in Skirmish and Corp battles where the more organised corps gather and dominate. |
Rasatsu
Much Crying Old Experts
462
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Posted - 2013.03.05 10:57:00 -
[25] - Quote
The modules that the driver doesn't have skills enough to use, or if his skills pushes the PG/CPU usage above the output, then those modules should become inactive like in EVE.
Also, the driver seat should not be possible to operate for those without the skills. |
Nguruthos IX
Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire
66
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Posted - 2013.03.05 11:09:00 -
[26] - Quote
Needless Sacermendor wrote:This simple answer is to give the owner priority over switching into the driver seat.
Give him a 'Driver Seat' button when he's on a secondary turret ... hitting that will switch him with the driver Main problem with this is the driver might not have a chance to get in the vehicle before somebody drives/flies off with it.
What if I want to hop out in a safe area and repair my armor? Well, I can't because in the 3 seconds it would take to even get out and back in, somebody could switch to the driver seat, and from there it only takes 1-2 seconds to lift above the ground another another single second to crash the entire ship.
I'd rather they just not be allowed in it in the first place. |
Nguruthos IX
Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire
66
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Posted - 2013.03.05 11:19:00 -
[27] - Quote
A'Real Fury wrote:Needless Sacermendor wrote:This simple answer is to give the owner priority over switching into the driver seat.
Give him a 'Driver Seat' button when he's on a secondary turret ... hitting that will switch him with the driver I agree with the above statement but you could expand it to say that the button gives automatic access even if the tank is full it will kick the player in the drivers seat out either into a free turret or if none are available then completely out of the tank. I believe vehicles should have the option to hack or jump in and drive but if the owner does get in then they should have the option to take control (drivers seat) of the vehicle. If you are going to call in a tank in a Ambush match without YOUR squad surrounding the drop point so even if you die one of your squad takes control of the HAV then you should accept us blueberries are not going to let it sit there. If you play in Ambush as Lone Wolf and call in tanks or high end LAVs etc then you will need to plan carefully before calling your vehicle in. But with the owner priority button you should always have access and always given the driver seat. As others have mentioned what is the point of having vehicles sitting around nobody else can use or even worse only someone on the other team can use. Particularly when there is a limit on the number of vehicles that a team can call in. I assume that this is less of a problem in Skirmish and Corp battles where the more organised corps gather and dominate.
Assuming I was somehow sniped before piloting: It does my team 1000x more good having my ship sit there an extra 10 seconds at risk of being under fire, compared to someone getting in, flying off untrained, then him, my million isk ship (which I won't call in another), and potentially 6 other passengers all perishing in flames within 10 seconds when he flips it over or runs into a wall.
And yes, in my experience every single one of the ships I've lost to blues (around 10-20) maybe once every day or so ... Every single one of them has gone predictably the same. Stare in horror. pray they actually know how to pilot or get the signal that my AR firing towards them means get back here before you die... observe as they struggle with the controls and collide with some form of terrain in the next 15 seconds, in what would be a comic display of firey-fail if only it hadn't such a price tag on it.
Let alone not knowing how/when/why to activate which of however many modules to actually keep the thing alive under fire.
I imagine a tank-jacker would be similarly counter productive to team efforts if they drive away from the owner, towards swarm fire, bump a lamp post and fail to activate a shield booster before being AV'd to death.
So no, sorry. I don't accept the premise that a vehicle moving is more an asset to a team then a vehicle sitting. At all.
However I do agree with you that under certain, sometimes unavoidable circumstances, I can expect a blue to get in the vehicle and kill themselves. They do this because they can. I'd prefer they not be able to at all.
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1855
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Posted - 2013.03.05 11:56:00 -
[28] - Quote
I can deliberately - to help my team - call in one of my decently-fitted Sicas and run off. It's a Militia HAV, pretty good, but nothing on it is unavailable to a new player. The build has required me to accumulate a fair amount of SP to increase PG/CPU capacity on the vehicle, and to reduce PG/CPU costs on a couple of the modules. It's still all Militia, but it's NOT a loadout that can be made by a freshly-created Merc.
While transferring money from one player to another is a complex business, sometimes even when you're both in the same corp, it's kind of silly to not allow this to be done so a player can help out a friend who's trying to learn the ropes.
But the capabilities of the vehicle should be tied to the skill of the DRIVER, not the OWNER. If I have my Shield Control and Field Mechanics skills maxed out, and my Sica has more than 6000 EHP, some random who hasn't bought the Shield Control skillbook yet will probably be sitting below 5000 EHP if they steal/borrow that same tank. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1226
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Posted - 2013.03.05 12:39:00 -
[29] - Quote
Vehicles need to work the same way as ships in EVE, having a skill-call for the vehicle itself and every module fitted to it. If you don't have the skill, you shouldn't even be able to use it. |
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ChribbaX
Otherworld Enterprises Dust Control Otherworld Empire Productions
147
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Posted - 2013.03.05 13:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
Should behave like EVE imo, if you find an unpiloted ship but cannot fly it, you cannot board it. Should be the same on the ground.
/c |
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