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An exploit which needs addressed: I can drive proto tank with NO SP

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Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1855	Posted - 2013.03.05 11:56:00 - [1] - Quote I can deliberately - to help my team - call in one of my decently-fitted Sicas and run off. It's a Militia HAV, pretty good, but nothing on it is unavailable to a new player. The build has required me to accumulate a fair amount of SP to increase PG/CPU capacity on the vehicle, and to reduce PG/CPU costs on a couple of the modules. It's still all Militia, but it's NOT a loadout that can be made by a freshly-created Merc. While transferring money from one player to another is a complex business, sometimes even when you're both in the same corp, it's kind of silly to not allow this to be done so a player can help out a friend who's trying to learn the ropes. But the capabilities of the vehicle should be tied to the skill of the DRIVER, not the OWNER. If I have my Shield Control and Field Mechanics skills maxed out, and my Sica has more than 6000 EHP, some random who hasn't bought the Shield Control skillbook yet will probably be sitting below 5000 EHP if they steal/borrow that same tank.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1857	Posted - 2013.03.05 13:54:00 - [2] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Vehicles need to work the same way as ships in EVE, having a skill-call for the vehicle itself and every module fitted to it. If you don't have the skill, you shouldn't even be able to use it. I don't think that entirely works when you're not operating the turrets (other than the main gun). They COULD make it so that the driver needs the skills required for the main gun and the hull, but not the small turrets, and anyone intending to be a gunner on high-tier weapons has to train in those turret types. Whoever's buying the vehicle should (obviously) still need the skills to fit it, but if they want to give it to someone else with the appropriate skills, they can do so.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1876	Posted - 2013.03.07 12:47:00 - [3] - Quote Django Quik wrote: I know how people love to shoot down real life analogies but try to see this logically - if you don't know how to fly a helicopter, you can't fly a helicopter, even if you find one empty and sitting around asking to be taken. If your enemy had a helicopter and died before he could get in it, you could well go over and claim it for yourself but if you don't know how to fly it, you can't fly it. How does this not make sense? If you know how to fly a light civilian helicopter (equivalent to Militia gear that you can get WITHOUT skill training), you can get into a Black Hawk or an Apache and, while you're going to have issues, you'll understand enough about the basics to get yourself off the ground and wobble around for a while and get somewhere - even if it's not where you were TRYING to go. If you're lucky, you might even be able to work out enough to get the thing's controls to get it stable and head in the right direction. If you know how to drive a car, you're probably going to crash a big-rig if you're doing anything more than moving down a straight road without someone helping you to understand the differences between it and your Honda Civic, but you CAN drive it. And more importantly, I wouldn't know how to build a car, but after my Dad swapped the engine from my Nissan Bluebird into a similarly-sized Nissan Presea which had a damaged engine, I was able to drive the resulting vehicle just fine. There should be negative modifiers when driving a vehicle that you aren't qualified for. I'm not against the idea that vehicle driver seats should be locked out for people without the relevant Operation skill for the vehicle, but I don't think the fitting requirements need to be met - although there should be penalties if you couldn't fit the vehicle yourself, because as much as I can be a safe driver in a car, my Dad's knowledge of the internal systems gives him a lot of advantages I don't have.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1877	Posted - 2013.03.07 14:28:00 - [4] - Quote Django Quik wrote: I could get in a stealth bomber but even if I knew how to fly the thing, I wouldn't know how to activate the stealth modules. I can't even fly a civilian plane, but I know from way too much time studying physics that the "stealth modules" in almost every stealth plane ever built are almost entirely passive. The paint absorbs radio waves (much like black paint absorbs most visible light) to reduce the plane's radar signature, and the engines are designed to dissipate the heat that would normally be used for infra-red tracking. If you know how to raise landing gear, and can figure out how to NOT open the bay doors if you're flying a bomber, then you actually DO know how to "activate the stealth modules" on that plane. And if a module is as simple as being "on" or "off" (like almost every single active module in the game so far), and the module has a civilian variant that anyone can operate, it's reasonable to expect that high-end versions of the same technology, which also operate on a simple on/off principle will have at least similar, if not the same, controls to activate them. I think, as I've said, there should be penalties for using something you wouldn't be able to fit for yourself. I can see your point about modules, though. Lets look at a possible fitting someone could create: Sagaris Militia Blaster main turret. Proto Missile Turrets. Passive Proto Modules buffing the Missile damage. Militia Active Armour Repairer. The driver could logically be assumed to only need the skills to operate the Sagaris hull, because the only modules built into the tank that aren't Militia level are specifically geared towards Missile weapons, and won't affect anything the driver actually operates for him- or herself. But making the game look that in-depth into things would be horribly complex, whereas a simple hull-based skill check would be a good enough check for most purposes. Usually, players skill into the turrets and modules they intend to use BEFORE reaching the same tier of vehicle skills. It's possible that it would be good to require the relevant skills for the vehicle hull AND any driver/pilot-operated weapons. Maybe even active modules, or everything but the passenger-operated weaponry. But I don't think a player should be required to have the fitting-based skills required to pilot someone else's vehicle. And you can fly a civilian plane. Can you build, for yourself, or even accurately describe all the internal mechanisms inside, the best plane you're qualified to fly? If not, that supports the "shouldn't need to be capable of fitting" argument. Can you fly planes you don't own? Are there any planes you've never tried to fly which you'd be able to hop into and fly competently (not necessarily well enough to pull stunts or anything) because they handle similarly enough to a plane you've flown before? Because if so, that supports it as well, and supports the idea that, when looking at better models of the same type of design, you should be able to jump in and use it - even if you can't use it to its full capability.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1879	Posted - 2013.03.07 18:14:00 - [5] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Okay, I concede your logic Garrett - it all makes good sense, at least on the fittings side. Someone else has fitted the vehicle and used their skills to get the correct PG and CPU levels and whatnot, so those can be taken out of this equation. Creating penalties but still allowing use would be pretty complex and I think unnecessary. In order to pilot any vehicle, you should have at least 1 level in the relevant piloting skill (LAVs, HAVs, Marauders, Dropships). If active modules are fitted that aren't totally skilled up to, those modules should be unable to be activated but passive ones should remain. Hmm, I dunno actually... thinking about it, fitting a module to your own vehicle that you haven't skilled up to yet means you can't deploy that vehicle into the battlefield at all. Because of this I'm still tempted to say that to pilot a vehicle at all you need every required skill level for all modules and fittings (PG and CPU excluded). To call the vehicle in, you need to have built it first. If you've DESIGNED it, but aren't capable of actually getting the design to work, you can't call it in because it only exists as an incomplete concept. Once you've put it together, it's reasonable to hand the keys to someone else... unless they're a terrible driver. I like the idea of letting someone drive, but barring them from activating modules they aren't skilled into. That would be a good way to encourage someone to jump OUT of the driver's seat when they realise "but if I can't use that, I'm going to die!"
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1880	Posted - 2013.03.07 20:16:00 - [6] - Quote Nguruthos IX wrote: "Ohhhh a shiney vehicle I've never driven, but oh no! I don't see access to any modules, I'd better hop out" ~ No one ever You know damn well every blueberry in the world would neither get the hint, nor abide to exit the vehicle if asked directly. They'll just try to derp around in it and watch the funny explosion. What if it was "Ohhh a shiny vehicle. Ooooh, modules.Why are they greyed out? Why can't I use this vehicle properly? It's stupid!" instead? Being shown a toy and not given the option to play with it makes noobs move on surprisingly often. They may end up rage-quitting the tank instead of moving to a (slightly) more useful gunner position, but it's still an improvement.

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